flying in the face of logic.

[robertbevan]

something that has always gotten under my skin a bit in 3.5 is the x-number-of-spells-per-day magic system. i mean, i understand why the system is in place, but i don't really buy the rational behind it. i'd prefer a system where access to new spells is harder to come by, but once you've mastered a particular spell, you're free to cast it willy-nilly. or maybe have prohibitively expensive spell components or something.

"hit him again with your magic missile!"
"i can't. i only had the one."
"what are you talking about? you spent an hour studying that ****."
"yeah, but then i used it."
"but you memorized it."
"and then i forgot it. sort of like after a test in high school."
"alright... i'll finish this guy off with my axe. but we've got a couple of hours before we need to go raid the goblin camp. study it again."
"i can't. i have to wait until tomorrow."
"why? we've got loads of time."
"because uh... magical energy or some ****."

another thing that bothers me is the xp cost for writing scrolls. again, i understand why it's there, but it bothers me.

"woo hoo! i just leveled up. i feel so much stronger now... about 12 hit points stronger in fact. how many hit poin-- er... how much stronger do you feel?"
"i don't feel any stronger at all. i used a lot of my experience writing those scrolls."
"why do you lose experience when you write scrolls?"
"because writing stuff down makes the information leave your head."
"no it doesn't."
"do we really have to have this conversation again?"
"so how does one gain experience in the arcane arts?"
"the same way one gains experience in any art. you beat the crap out of goblins."


those are the first two things that come to mind. i'm sure there are more.

[NikitaDarkstar]

And this is why the DM I mainly play under uses an alternative system with MP points instead. You get an MP Dice (just like hp dice) depending on class and spells of different level cost different amounts of MP. The thing is you only use your amount of known spells... if you can learn 5 1 level spells and 3 second level spells you can cast them in any combination you want until you run out of MP, once you're out of MP you're done for the day and you need a full nights rest to recover it.

It's not how D&D is meant to be, it's generally only a good idea in high magic settings and it does make several feats fairly pointless, along with in 3.5 making Wizards and Sorcs very, very similar, but it works for my group since we despise the vancian spell system.

[inexorabletruth]

Please don't throw rotten tomatoes at me for saying this, but they fixed all that in 4E. *ducks*

:smalleek:... :smallredface:

I'm no real fan of the system, but making magic stuff makes more sense in 4E, and you can cast cantrips at will and more powerful spells once every encounter. Other, more brutal spells, can only be cast daily, but they fluff it as being due to them taking a lot out of you... magically or something. I guess it makes a little more sense. Certain hard intellectual or physical things IRL require so much skill and concentration, that to keep up that level of focus for more than the burst it takes to get that one task done would be too dificult a task. Anyway... worth looking into if 3.5 quirks like that bug you.

[kardar233]

There's a really good explanation for this that I've heard, which probably comes from Jack Vance's books (where the D&D magic system originally came from).

Basically, at the beginning of the day when you prepare your spells, you're speaking the invocation of the spell (which is massive, taking up several pages) and then freezing it in your mind short one crucial section. You only prepare a certain number of these spells per day as limited by your memory and ability to hold massive frameworks of reality-rewriting power in your little tiny mind. When it comes time to cast the spell, you recall the nearly-completed incantation and add the final phrase, set of magical passes etc.

~EDIT~ And scrolls are easily explainable here too. Instead of holding a whole mystical tapestry in your mind, you're committing it to paper. However, just writing the thing down leaves you with a powerless set of letters just like what's in your spellbook. What you actually need to do is to cast the (nearly complete) spell yourself and then splinter off a piece of your mind (specifically, the one holding the spell) into your specially-prepared scroll. If you're cutting off chunks of your mind to make these magical items, it's going to be hard to make enough room in your head to expand your repertoire.

[Little Brother]

The way I figured is its a combination of some archaic ritual practice, or the idea that channeling raw arcane power is inherently dangerous, and you need some sort of method to focus yourself to keep the magic in check.

Or you simply ready all of your spell components for the day, and when you burn those, meh. Or maybe you need some mental protection to channel the magic, which you set up readying.

Plus what kind of wizard readies ALL of their slots in the beginning of the day, unless they have a bound/Simulacrum/Ice Assassin Weird?

[whibla]

The 2nd Ed. supplement Spells and Magic included some interesting variants on mages, specifically Channellers, which were, I think, the forerunner to 3rd ed. Sorcerers.

The basics went something like this:

1. Casting spells, the process of channelling the arcane energy through your body is an arduous process. The higher the level of the spell, the more taxing it is to cast it. Overcasting, casting a few spells at the limit of his ability, or casting a large number of low level spells in quick succession is dangerous, even possibly fatal.
2. The mage has maximum number of spell points, based on his level and his stats. He can choose to use them to cast whatever spells he knows...once a spell has been learnt it's available to be cast, period. Spells can be cast for greater effect, requiring more points, they can be cast slower, requiring fewer points, or they can be cast with reduced effect, also requiring fewer points. There was an additional optional rule to allow mages to learn spells of a level above that normally available to them, but it was prohibitively expensive, not to mention exceedingly dangerous, to actually cast them.
3. A number of spell points are recovered every hour, that number depending on two factors: the maximum spell points the caster has, and the level of exertion the caster experienced during that hour. Sleeping was about 8/hour or 10% iirc (whichever was greater), while riding a horse, or walking casually though the countryside was more like 2/hour or 2% of your maximum.
4. After casting a spell, you cross-referenced your mage level against the level of the spell you cast to determine how much the casting took out of you, in terms of exhaustion. There were 5 levels of 'fatigue' ranging from light (no major penalties, slight headache, feels tired), through heavy (-2 attack rolls, splitting headache, quarter movement rate), all the way to mortally fatigued (you collapse to the ground trembling upon completing the spell - fortitude save or die).
5. Fatigue levels were cumulative, obviously, but equally could wear off pretty quickly...for the low effect ones anyway.

I realise that this is a 2nd ed 'class', but it shouldn't be too hard to 'update' the concept to bring it in-line with 3rd ed rules, and it would seem to address your major bugbears with mages and sorcerers as they stand.

Just as an aside, I feel I should add, based on the thread title, a madman's logic is another's insanity, but who's to say who's mad and who's sane? :smallwink:

[Zombimode]

"hit him again with your magic missile!"
"i can't. i only had the one."
"what are you talking about? you spent an hour studying that ****."
"yeah, but then i used it."
"but you memorized it."
"and then i forgot it. sort of like after a test in high school."

You don't forget spells when you cast them.
They prepare spells in advance. What this preparation entails is left open. If you choose to fill this space with "the wizard memorizes the spells like memorizing grocery list" then its your own fault if things don't make sense in game.


"woo hoo! i just leveled up. i feel so much stronger now... about 12 hit points stronger in fact. how many hit poin-- er... how much stronger do you feel?"
"i don't feel any stronger at all. i used a lot of my experience writing those scrolls."
"why do you lose experience when you write scrolls?"
"because writing stuff down makes the information leave your head."
"no it doesn't."
"do we really have to have this conversation again?"
"so how does one gain experience in the arcane arts?"
"the same way one gains experience in any art. you beat the crap out of goblins."

When you treat abstract game mechanics as tangible in-universe its your own fault if things don't make sense.


I'm not saying any of those rules could not have been designed better or more associated, but your attitude regarding the rules plays a big role in this.

And when will people learn that unmet expectations are a matter distinct from logic? :smallmad:

[Dairuga]

A very fun concept here, is that the book does give some ideas of what "Memorizing" spells entrail.

Imagine, if you want, that the wizard constructs several frameworks inside his mind. Enormous, vast frameworks, requiring vast amount of time to construct. Enormous strings of words, endless chants, glyphs, diagrams, words of power; etc. From covering an entire page, to needing several upon several pages. This is what we call memorizing. It is quite a bit harder than the example you gave, comparing it to memorizing a grocery list. Of course, if you are making a strawman argument like that, it will make little sense.

Now, yes, there are several renditions of alternate systerms that suits a system that you seem to want more than the regular Spells-per-day system. Spellpoints, Pathfinder / 4E's availability to use cantrips an unlimited amount of times, etc. Mastering the basics as you start to move onto the heavier stuff and all such things. But really, depending on how you view it, you can find a reasonable explanation that makes the "Normal" system look much less silly. It is only as stupid as you word it to be, after all.

Yes, it is exhausting to cast spells. It taxes the wizard quite a lot, to do these spells. And he can only memorize a certain amount of these "Frameworks" per day. So it makes sense that he can't just "Sit down" and rememorize them after a fight. After all, after one have crammed hours of intense studying and tired oneself out with mental excercises, not to mention the strain of actually unleashing magic energy trough one's body, an apt comparison might be to tell someone that have just ran a marathon to "Simply get running again, then. It is silly that you have to take a break to recuperate".

As for scribing scrolls, no, "writing down stuff" does not make it leave your head. Writing grocery lists can prove that quite clearly enough. But ripping magic from inside your mental faculties and imprinting it onto paper, however, would be quite the harder task. And yes, ripping the completed, intrinsic magical frameworks from inside your mind and placed it all onto a single sheet of paper, sounds like a rather more plausible explanation as to why the magic "Leaves your head" when you do this process, and why it leaves you drained and weakened, constituting the loss of experience.

But then again, given that your friend just gained 12 HP upon leveling up, he is most likely a fighter or a barbarian, which explains the lack in his Intelligence score and understanding as to why "Writing things down makes it leave your head".

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Basically, at the beginning of the day when you prepare your spells, you're speaking the invocation of the spell (which is massive, taking up several pages) and then freezing it in your mind short one crucial section. You only prepare a certain number of these spells per day as limited by your memory and ability to hold massive frameworks of reality-rewriting power in your little tiny mind. When it comes time to cast the spell, you recall the nearly-completed incantation and add the final phrase, set of magical passes etc.
This.

It's in the DMG, by the way

[Hiro Protagonest]

The second one is easy to explain. Putting power into the incantation, rather than simply writing down the words (which has no use except allowing wizards or archivists to copy it down into spellbooks so that any of them with enough control over magic can prepare it), drains a bit of your own magical power. It's also the housing of that magical power that makes your body stronger in mundane ways, and more magic means more strength (leveling).

[Mato]

The original creators of the Dungeons & Dragons games were fans of Jack Vance and incorporated many aspects of the Dying Earth series into the game. The magic system, in which a wizard is limited in the number of spells that can be simultaneously remembered and forgets them once they are cast) was based on the magic of Dying Earth. In role-playing game circles, this sort of magic system is called 'Vancian'. Some of the spells from Dungeons & Dragons are based on spells mentioned in the Dying Earth series, such as the prismatic spray. Magic items from the Dying Earth stories such as ioun stones also made their way into Dungeons & Dragons. One of the deities of magic in Dungeons & Dragons is named Vecna (an anagram of Vance)
Further reading (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VancianMagic) (and an excuse to link to tvtropes).
Gary Gygax's opinion (http://www.dyingearth.com/files/GARY%20GYGAX%20JACK%20VANCE.pdf).

[robertbevan]

There's a really good explanation for this that I've heard, which probably comes from Jack Vance's books (where the D&D magic system originally came from).

Basically, at the beginning of the day when you prepare your spells, you're speaking the invocation of the spell (which is massive, taking up several pages) and then freezing it in your mind short one crucial section. You only prepare a certain number of these spells per day as limited by your memory and ability to hold massive frameworks of reality-rewriting power in your little tiny mind. When it comes time to cast the spell, you recall the nearly-completed incantation and add the final phrase, set of magical passes etc.


this, i'll buy... reluctantly.


~EDIT~ And scrolls are easily explainable here too. Instead of holding a whole mystical tapestry in your mind, you're committing it to paper. However, just writing the thing down leaves you with a powerless set of letters just like what's in your spellbook. What you actually need to do is to cast the (nearly complete) spell yourself and then splinter off a piece of your mind (specifically, the one holding the spell) into your specially-prepared scroll. If you're cutting off chunks of your mind to make these magical items, it's going to be hard to make enough room in your head to expand your repertoire.

this, not so much.

[NM020110]

"this, not so much."

Perhaps an alternate explanation, then? I'm not sure if this view is supported or not, but it's how I've always thought of it.

When a magic item is created, the creator binds a little bit of their essence to the item in order to give the item energy with which to manifest the spell which was embedded into it. When a wizard binds a fireball into a mace to set it permanently on fire, they lose a little of themselves, though as they grow they can reach the point they were at again.

With a scroll, the amount of energy needed is relatively little, since the form of the spell is not being changed very much. They still need it, though, or they would find their spell activating immediately rather than being sealed in the scroll until it is activated.

Likewise with the preparation of spells. The wizard binds the spell so that it will be released with a specific gesture and a few words. Since it is being bound within the wizard rather than to an object, no essence is lost, but there is still a limitation on how much can safely be invested.

[robertbevan]

"this, not so much."

Perhaps an alternate explanation, then? I'm not sure if this view is supported or not, but it's how I've always thought of it.

When a magic item is created, the creator binds a little bit of their essence to the item in order to give the item energy with which to manifest the spell which was embedded into it. When a wizard binds a fireball into a mace to set it permanently on fire, they lose a little of themselves, though as they grow they can reach the point they were at again.

With a scroll, the amount of energy needed is relatively little, since the form of the spell is not being changed very much. They still need it, though, or they would find their spell activating immediately rather than being sealed in the scroll until it is activated.

Likewise with the preparation of spells. The wizard binds the spell so that it will be released with a specific gesture and a few words. Since it is being bound within the wizard rather than to an object, no essence is lost, but there is still a limitation on how much can safely be invested.


well... that's something anyway. i love the game, and adhere to (most of) its rules. this was just meant to be an exercise in poking fun at some of the concepts that, at the end of the day, are just there to balance things out.

[Greyfeld85]

Despite the logic inherent in the vancian system, I've always felt that spontaneous casters have no reason to adhere to the same system, since their power is supposed to be innate rather than learned. So, in my current PBP game, all spontaneous casters use the Spell Points variant system from Unearthed Arcana.

Also, I've decided to make all crafting cost extra GP instead of requiring EXP to craft. This is mostly because I'm not using EXP in my campaign, so I had to come up with another way to allow my players to pay for their crafting attempts.

[Hiro Protagonest]

this, not so much.
How about my wording?

The second one is easy to explain. Putting power into the incantation, rather than simply writing down the words (which has no use except allowing wizards or archivists to copy it down into spellbooks so that any of them with enough control over magic can prepare it), drains a bit of your own magical power. It's also the housing of that magical power that makes your body stronger in mundane ways, and more magic means more strength (leveling).

Also, see The Kane Chronicles Book 2, in which the girl (I know her name starts with an S...) who knows Set's secret name (which, it turns out, is a pretty stupid name) revokes it in a bargain with Set. She still knows it, but her memory and pronunciation are off just a bit, and she can't place her finger on how to do it right. That's how the words of magic power work. You can read anything copied down on a scroll, doesn't mean you'll be able to use it.

[Greyfeld85]

Also, see The Kane Chronicles Book 2, in which the girl (I know her name starts with an S...) who knows Set's secret name (which, it turns out, is a pretty stupid name) revokes it in a bargain with Set. She still knows it, but her memory and pronunciation are off just a bit, and she can't place her finger on how to do it right. That's how the words of magic power work. You can read anything copied down on a scroll, doesn't mean you'll be able to use it.

It's Sadie. I just read the last book in the trilogy two days ago :P

[whibla]

Also, I've decided to make all crafting cost extra GP instead of requiring EXP to craft. This is mostly because I'm not using EXP in my campaign, so I had to come up with another way to allow my players to pay for their crafting attempts.

The other way of doing this is suggested in the DMG. Remove the XP component, and replace it with rare and hard to come by materials. This allows you to place stricter limits on magical item creation than simply gold, which is often not much of a limiting factor.

It also struck me as a convenient 'hand-wave' to get around the dislike of spending XP's to create potions and/or scrolls (albeit the small number it does cost). This might also bypass RobertBevan's objection to spending XP's to create what are essentially throw-away items, whilst still holding to the idea of imbuing permanent magic items with a part of your life essence (the spending of the XP's) in order to create the more powerful items.

[Greyfeld85]

The other way of doing this is suggested in the DMG. Remove the XP component, and replace it with rare and hard to come by materials. This allows you to place stricter limits on magical item creation than simply gold, which is often not much of a limiting factor.

It also struck me as a convenient 'hand-wave' to get around the dislike of spending XP's to create potions and/or scrolls (albeit the small number it does cost). This might also bypass RobertBevan's objection to spending XP's to create what are essentially throw-away items, whilst still holding to the idea of imbuing permanent magic items with a part of your life essence (the spending of the XP's) in order to create the more powerful items.

While I considered the whole "rare material component" thing, I didn't really want to have to come up with possibly dozens of different types of materials for the purpose of crafting and spellcasting. I also considered having the players sacrifice living creatures to cover the EXP component, but then decided that even if I could determine how to balance it properly, that's something a decidedly evil character would do, which wouldn't work very well in a non-evil campaign.

In the end, I decided that it takes long enough to craft items to begin with (especially considering my players aren't going to have a whole lot of IC down time), that I didn't need to further restrict them by forcing them to cut into their levels as well. The extra gold cost keeps things prohibitive without discouraging crafting altogether. Crafting is rarely used as-is, so anything I can do to give my players a reason to use it, without breaking the game, seems like a good idea to me.