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Edhelras
2012-06-10, 04:23 AM
Is there any penalty or risk connected with destroying the altar of an opposing deity, and how is the characters' alignment in relation to this?

A party led by a LG (obviously) Paladin has conquered a monastery dedicated to Shar and cleared out all resistane. The monastery contains a chapel originally dedicated to Shar (and containing some remnants of that), but currently being used by Cyricist. They wonder whether they should destroy the altar as an act of defiance to Shar - the entire adventure is based on trying to foil Shar's sinister plans.

1. For a Paladin (and his comrade, a NG cleric of Deneir) - would it be considered an outright duty to destroy altars (and other religious objects) to their sworn enemy Shar? Or is it rather optional how far they will go to counter Shar?

2. Is destroying someone else's (un-)holy place problematic in the alignment perspective? Or is it rather quite all right for someone of Good alignment to show plain disrespect for the unholy places of the Evil deities?

3. Is there any particular difficulties involved in destroying an altar? Or can it simply be plucked apart physically?

4. Should the DM consider having the deity respond to such an act? Either through an immediate destructive respons (like a glyph going off, or something), or through sending an unholy avenger of some sort, or some other revenge? Or is this act so commonplace that no particular form of revenge is to be expected?

Yora
2012-06-10, 05:03 AM
Since I'm quite sure there isn't any precedent for this question, do whatever you feel is right for your game.

After all, an alatar is just a normal object with symbolic value. At worst, you're a bit mean to it's owners, but if you get into such a situation, you've probably have already slaughtered the priests. Some clerics might get even more angry at you, if you destroy the altar of the temple, some might not care at all.

PersonMan
2012-06-10, 05:08 AM
2. Is destroying someone else's (un-)holy place problematic in the alignment perspective? Or is it rather quite all right for someone of Good alignment to show plain disrespect for the unholy places of the Evil deities?

I imagine it depends on the deity in question, but I don't think that tearing down Evil altars would be a problem for Good people. It might even be a Good act.


3. Is there any particular difficulties involved in destroying an altar? Or can it simply be plucked apart physically?

4. Should the DM consider having the deity respond to such an act? Either through an immediate destructive respons (like a glyph going off, or something), or through sending an unholy avenger of some sort, or some other revenge? Or is this act so commonplace that no particular form of revenge is to be expected?

It depends on how active the deities are. However, if a deity can't be bothered to help when the worshippers of their temple are being killed (especially since they probably know the altar will be destroyed afterwards), why would they protect the altar, now useless without worshipers?

If they send some sort of avenger, it would make more sense to have it dispatched to stop the people from killing more followers and ruining the plans of the deity rather than destroying a single altar being the cause of its mobilization.

ClockShock
2012-06-10, 05:42 AM
It depends on how active the deities are. However, if a deity can't be bothered to help when the worshippers of their temple are being killed (especially since they probably know the altar will be destroyed afterwards), why would they protect the altar, now useless without worshipers?


On the other hand. Altars may be a direct link for the Deity to the mortal world. Worshippers are mere mortals that come and go, are easily lost and gained to the greater cause, and are altogether too complicated to efficiently protect.
An altar however might be considered a little piece of the deity in question, which brings about all kinds of problems.

As mentioned above, you should choose whichever fits your game best. However, if altars are important most of the issues mentioned in the OP will come into play.
Paladins will be expected, or even bound, to destroy opposing altars where possible - as it will weaken the opposing deity.
There will be no alignment problems if this altar is a valid target (good targets evil or vice versa)
It will be difficult to achieve. It might require a specific prayer/spell/weapon to weaken the altar's innate power.
The deity will respond. activating something within the premises is possible (but allow players to take precautions against it, such as destroying the appropriate glyphs/traps). Having the character that destroyed the altar become a named enemy of the deity will create interesting problems for the party. It means that agents of Shar might recognise this Paladin immediately and attempt to destroy him/her.

Consider that this place is being used by Cyricist at the moment. This either suggests that altars are not really important, or that Cyricist and Shar are close to each other, or that the Cyricist worshippers were unknowingly being influenced by Shar through use of the altar.

Edhelras
2012-06-10, 11:14 AM
Thanks for the answers!

I do feel that at least the Paladin should feel obliged to dismantle an obvious place of worship to the darkest deities. So as part of the LG alignment and the Paladin code, it would be a dereliction of duty if he did not make an attempt.

I agree that Shar might be pretty annoyed simply by the slaying of her priests (and likewise for Cyric). However, I'm thinking that an altar, or a church/temple, has an even greater importance to the deity than mere mortal servants. In particular if the altar has been unhallowed in the name of Shar or Cyric.
This is a published adventure which doesn't state whether the area has been unhallowed. Unhallow is such an expensive spell, that I guess not all sites of worship are unhallowed in terms of using that spell? How, then, is a site marked as an unholy place? I guess there are nonmagical ways to construct a place of worship, then. Although I'm a bit surprised if the primary place of worship in this monastery wasn't magically treated in some way.

Similarly, I would guess that an altar is somehow imbued with the essence of the deity, so that it would be more difficult to destroy than a similar non-religious object, perhaps even needing some kind of special spell to achieve that? But I don't know of any such spell, except hallow perhaps.
Further, I would regard an altar as some kind of conduit to the deity - and therefore having a special link to the deity. Wherefore its destruction might be more noticeable by the deity.

So, perhaps then the destruction of the altar should require some special rituals that the PCs must device and propose (might include castings of Bless and Consecrate and ample use of Holy Water), which will not create an immediate backlash, but which would mark them as enemies of the offended deities and might provide at least RP consequences further on.

For instance, the word might spread of the PCs offending act, and might cause Sharrans to accuse them of this deed in the future, perhaps even cause ambushes and "random" encounters of revenge.

wumpus
2012-06-11, 02:30 PM
I would go so far as to say that the paladin (and the cleric, assuming that his deity considered Cyric an enemy) would be required to destroy/bless/undesecrate the altar. It is *EVIL* and must be destroyed.

This type of thing leads to Miko situations, so be careful. If you come across a LN death type deity with an undead portfolio a Pelar worshiping paladin or cleric would be similarly oathbound to destroy it (even if you could be a LG cleric of such). Similarly for other neutral members of "the gods below" (the Traveler in Eberron is such, but you can get away with just about any alignment shenanigans there.

In the end, just remember that when a paladin runs into an evil act, evil artifact, or known villain, expect appropriate action. If that will hurt the game, don't let it happen.

LibraryOgre
2012-06-24, 11:58 AM
After all, an alatar is just a normal object with symbolic value. At worst, you're a bit mean to it's owners, but if you get into such a situation, you've probably have already slaughtered the priests. Some clerics might get even more angry at you, if you destroy the altar of the temple, some might not care at all.

In D&D-likes, I very disagree. An altar in a monastery is likely to be a consecrated object... not necessarily a magic item, but definitely designed as a conduit to the deity. Destroying the deity's altar is a direct affront to the deity in question, and will get you attention.

Now, what form this attention takes will vary. A party that managed to destroy a monastery and destroy it's altar is worth paying attention to... they've got the chops to be a major problem for the deity. I can see Shar sending visions to loyal followers, telling them to destroy the interlopers.