Flying Creatures: Lifting and dropping

[Patsy]

How practical is it for flying creatures to grapple foes, then take off with them, rise into the air, and drop them? I have some encounters with fliers upcoming in my campaign, and I think this would add a nice variation to the combat. However, i suspect that with most flying creatures, the various penalties would mean taking an awful lot of rounds to reach any significant height.

For instance, if an Half-fiend orc monk (Str 19, fly 40ft, improved grapple) successfully grapples the group's nerdy archivist, does the procedure go as follows:

Round 1: grapple and hold, pin opponent

Round 2: Win grapple check, take off. The archivist is a medium load, so the orc's fly speed is now thirty feet. In a grapple, one can move half one's speed, so fifteen feet. As a creature with Average maneuverability, however, the or can't rise straight up, but sixty degrees up, which I eyeball as about ten feet of vertical height per round.

...

Round 5: Having won all intervening grapple checks and risen ten feet every round, the orc drops the archivist 40 feet for a grand total of 4d6 damage.

This all seems non-ideal to me. RAW, does this tactic really only work with a larger creature with a faster fly speed, or have I run afoul of the infamous grappling rules and missed something obvious.

[Cespenar]

Off the top of my head: Make it a barbarian instead, Rage adds +4 Str so you can lift the wizard as a light load. Not to mention it gets Fast Movement too.

[VGLordR2]

I think creatures with Average maneuverability ascend at 1/2 speed, making this even less viable.

[Patsy]

Hm. Maybe I'll save these shenanigans for the encounter with the Erinyes a few sessions down the line. Their Entangle ability and Good maneuverability makes this all run a bit smoother. If she entangles a 'light-load' PC at close range, she can move 25ft up per round, with the PC making Str checks to escape...I think.

[Marnath]

Round 2: Win grapple check, take off. The archivist is a medium load, so the orc's fly speed is now thirty feet. In a grapple, one can move half one's speed, so fifteen feet. As a creature with Average maneuverability, however, the or can't rise straight up, but sixty degrees up, which I eyeball as about ten feet of vertical height per round.


Flying creatures can bear no more than a light load aloft. If they're carrying a medium load, they can't fly.

[nedz]

What your monsters need is the Snatch feat (MM p304)

[Slipperychicken]

Applying Half-Minotaur (dragon mag.. 313?) to a medium creature boosts its Str by 12 and makes it Large (for x2 carrying capacity). On top of a decent strength, you can probably carry a PC as a light load (provided their equipment isn't too heavy).

Also, I'm pretty sure dropping opponents from a height is pretty much an anti-turtle-shell tactic, since those can't fight back during the ascent. It's also generally inadvisable to carry something around while it's squirming around and wailing on you. So lift+drop is most likely going to wait until your opponent is somehow unable to fight back.

However, one similar thing I have heard of working well is Bull Rushing opponents off the side of a cliff. The Snatch feat linked above would make it possible for a sufficiently-large creature to chuck opponents into the air (or off cliffs, or out of trees, to fall painfully to their deaths).

[Invader]

Flying creatures can bear no more than a light load aloft. If they're carrying a medium load, they can't fly.

Where is this rule from?

I think the MM says a creature can fly it's normal speed with a medium load but it doesn't say anything about a heavy load.

[Marnath]

Where is this rule from?

I think the MM says a creature can fly it's normal speed with a medium load but it doesn't say anything about a heavy load.

Special Abilities on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly).

[Invader]

Special Abilities on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly).

But it doesn't say they can't fly at all if they have a load heavier than light, It just says they can't move their normal speed.

[Togo]

My solution was to use Togo's Juggling Squid Trick. Take a giant squid with improved grapple and combat reflexes, that had drunk a potion of fly (either get a druid to wildshape into one, or feed a squid the potion some other way).

Then you fly about 30' above the battlefield, attacking with improved grab. If you hit, take -20 on your grapple check, so the squid is not itself grappled. As long as the opponent isn't huge or larger, he gets drawn into your space. Then drop your opponent as a free action. Take an attack of opportunity on the opponent as he falls. If you hit, take -20 on the grapple again, and then drop again, and then take another AOO. At some point he will hit the deck, and take falling damage. At which point you can take your second attack, and do the whole thing over again, except this time he's prone. Squids get 10 attacks a round with tentacles, so your opponent potentially takes falling damage 10 times a round.

Obviously you can improve this by dropping your opponent onto spikes, lava, etc., casting fires of purity on your squid, using the bite attack somewhere in the sequence, etc, but you get the general idea.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's not very practical to use during combat. However, if you have a Harpy captivate the party with its song, it can grab and fly away with one at its leisure, which they won't even try to resist. Its carrying capacity is quite low, but make it a Vampire and you've got some extremely potent attacks to use while captivating foes. Dominate the strongest looking one, use a few slams on anyone with a holy symbol, and then grab a physically weak foe and fly out over the sea while still singing. Eventually it can stop singing and start draining blood, if the opponent manages to escape they'll plunge to their death anyway.

[Marnath]

But it doesn't say they can't fly at all if they have a load heavier than light, It just says they can't move their normal speed.


That's true, but if you can fly with a medium load, then the sentence about medium armor not necessarily constituting a medium load would be an unnecessary clarification.

[Invader]

Just today I was shape changing into a giant eagle on my druid and grappling and dropping troglodytes to their death in our campaign. It work exceedingly well unless I was doing something wrong mechanically and the DM didn't catch it either.

[Invader]

That's true, but if you can fly with a medium load, then the sentence about medium armor not necessarily constituting a medium load would be an unnecessary clarification.

Not really, it just means medium armor doesn't necessarily constitute a medium load.

And why would they give weights for medium and heavy loads for flying creatures if they couldn't fly at least at a partial speed?

[TuggyNE]

But it doesn't say they can't fly at all if they have a load heavier than light, It just says they can't move their normal speed.

It says they can "move through the air at the indicated speed" with a light load; using normal grammatical rules, this implies they probably can't move through the air at any speed at all with a heavier load.


Not really, it just means medium armor doesn't necessarily constitute a medium load.

See also: unnecessary clarification.


And why would they give weights for medium and heavy loads for flying creatures if they couldn't fly at least at a partial speed?

I would expect because most such creatures are also able to walk, carrying those loads.

[Invader]

It says they can "move through the air at the indicated speed" with a light load; using normal grammatical rules, this implies they probably can't move through the air at any speed at all with a heavier load.

I would say it implies that they can't move at normal speed but can move at a slower speed with a heavier load.


See also: unnecessary clarification.

You mean like saying "cannot fly at normal speed with anything heavier than a light load instead of just saying "cannot fly"


I would expect because most such creatures are also able to walk, carrying those loads.

You really think they put all the stats for medium and heavy loads for all flying creatures in case someone wanted to know that a giant eagle is only allowed carrying 900lbs while walking 5ft at a time. Not to mention that it would be physically easier for a bird (for instance) to carry a heavier load in claws while flying than it would be for it drag it along the ground as most of their musculature is in their wings anyway.

[Toliudar]

How practical is it for flying creatures to grapple foes, then take off with them, rise into the air, and drop them? I have some encounters with fliers upcoming in my campaign, and I think this would add a nice variation to the combat.

The tactic works just great, if you provide the right environment. Beside a gorge, on a bridge, on a rooftop, next to a raging fire. There's a reason why heroic battles so often seem to take place on balconies...

[TuggyNE]

I would say it implies that they can't move at normal speed but can move at a slower speed with a heavier load.

That's a possible interpretation, certainly. I don't think it's necessarily correct, or even the most probable.


You mean like saying "cannot fly at normal speed with anything heavier than a light load instead of just saying "cannot fly"


A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load.
The wording is not as clear as possible, of course, but if it actually mentioned "cannot" you would have a stronger case. Instead, it appears to give the minimum conditions for being able to fly at all. In other words: it is not restricting certain cases, while implicitly allowing all others, but is allowing certain cases and implicitly forbidding all others.


You really think they put all the stats for medium and heavy loads for all flying creatures in case someone wanted to know that a giant eagle is only allowed carrying 900lbs while walking 5ft at a time. Not to mention that it would be physically easier for a bird (for instance) to carry a heavier load in claws while flying than it would be for it drag it along the ground as most of their musculature is in their wings anyway.

Take a griffon, for example. They can walk at 30 ft., or fly at 80. Clearly it's plausible for them to carry loads on the ground, and a heavy load of 900 lbs is not particularly strange.

The giant eagle, IMO, is an anomaly; it's apparently statted as a large quadruped, for no obvious reason either flight- or ground-wise.

However, if you want a more authoritative answer I suggest consulting the Simple Q&A by RAW threads. (This would also be handy to avoid derailing this thread further. :smallwink:)

[hisnamehere]

Firstly: No one is going to gripe about the Half-Minotaur template?! It is generally agreed upon that this template is overpowered if taken as RAW (i.e. racial bonuses plus size bonuses). Use the template as is, except that "all bonuses associated with gaining large size" doesn't include Str bonuses, just normal Large (or larger) size characteristics.

Secondly: The opposite-but-betterly-effective build for this is the Dungeoncrasher Fighter using flight to Bull Rush opponents into the ground beneath their feet.

Helps?

[hamishspence]

There's a feat in Races of the Dragon that specifically grants the ability to fly with a medium load, and another, with the first feat as a prerequisite, that grants ability to fly with a heavy load.

That does suggest that without those feats, you can't fly with a medium or heavy load.

[whibla]

Flying creatures can bear no more than a light load aloft. If they're carrying a medium load, they can't fly.

Absolute rubbish. A creature may have one or more forms of movement, with the speed listed under its stat block. Flying is merely one of these forms of movement.

All creatures suffer a potential reduction to their movement rate (the speed at which they move, not the mode by which they do it) through becoming encumbered. The severity of the encumbrance determines how much their speed is limited (see the tables in the PHB in the section on movement and carrying capacity and the section on movement in the DMG).

So, for example, a Griffon carrying a Gnome rider (45 lbs.) is carrying a light load, and has a base land speed of 30' and a base fly speed of 80'.
The same griffon carrying half a horse (800 lbs.) back to his mate and hungry chicks is carrying a heavy load, and has a base land of 20' and a base flying speed of 55'.

Note, he can still fly, just a little slower than normal...pity those poor starving chicks...

[Invader]

However, if you want a more authoritative answer I suggest consulting the Simple Q&A by RAW threads. (This would also be handy to avoid derailing this thread further. :smallwink:)

It's not derailing this thread at. The OP wanted to know if picking up and dropping things was viable. It stands to reason that if something can't fly due to picking something up that's to heavy then it wouldn't be viable at all.:smallamused:

[Marnath]

Absolute rubbish. A creature may have one or more forms of movement, with the speed listed under its stat block. Flying is merely one of these forms of movement.

All creatures suffer a potential reduction to their movement rate (the speed at which they move, not the mode by which they do it) through becoming encumbered. The severity of the encumbrance determines how much their speed is limited (see the tables in the PHB in the section on movement and carrying capacity and the section on movement in the DMG).

So, for example, a Griffon carrying a Gnome rider (45 lbs.) is carrying a light load, and has a base land speed of 30' and a base fly speed of 80'.
The same griffon carrying half a horse (800 lbs.) back to his mate and hungry chicks is carrying a heavy load, and has a base land of 20' and a base flying speed of 55'.

Note, he can still fly, just a little slower than normal...pity those poor starving chicks...

We've already discussed that, and proven that you are mistaken nearly conclusively. Also, your reply seems a little hostile.:smallconfused:

[whibla]

We've already discussed that, and proven that you are mistaken nearly conclusively. Also, your reply seems a little hostile.:smallconfused:

Hmm, well, I'll start by apologising if I offended you, or anyone else. On reflection, I could have phrased it better, however, I'll stand by the substance what I wrote.

I must have missed the bit where you proved conclusively that flying creatures can't fly while carrying any load greater than light. What I have seen is one person arguing that because the SRD says a flying creature carrying more than a light load no longer moves at its normal movement rate it can no longer fly. I refer you back to my previous post where I differentiate between the creature's mode of movement and the creature's rate of movement.

I have also seen a post, quoting a couple of specific pc feats, to counter a specific limit on a specifc pc race in one supplement. That's not proof that the majority of flying creatures can't fly when encumbered either. Even if you were trying to claim it was, the rules in the DMG, the PHB, and the MM take precedence over any rules given in a supplement per the section on adjudicating in the DMG, page 6.

If I'm wrong, again, I'm sorry, but if you think I am, please tell me specifically why you think I am, rather than just referring generally back up the thread.

[Invader]

We've already discussed that, and proven that you are mistaken nearly conclusively. Also, your reply seems a little hostile.:smallconfused:

And again I'd say that' whats being discussed. I missed the post where everyone said they interpreted the rules the exact same way and a creature couldn't fly with a heavier than light load. At very least there's plenty of evidence that suggests otherwise.

[Slipperychicken]

Firstly: No one is going to gripe about the Half-Minotaur template?! It is generally agreed upon that this template is overpowered if taken as RAW (i.e. racial bonuses plus size bonuses). Use the template as is, except that "all bonuses associated with gaining large size" doesn't include Str bonuses, just normal Large (or larger) size characteristics.


That might be so, but it works well for the OP's purpose: Making creatures that can fly with PCs in tow, which may require said PCs being merely light loads. The OP isn't making a Dungeoncrashing, two-hand-Leap-Attacking, Shock-Trooping charger PC (In which case, yes, the template is very strong). He's trying to make a fun/interesting encounter which can successfully grapple a PC, carry it as a light load, then drop it elsewhere.


You might also want to invest in Tumble (and Improved Grapple) for these guys, so they don't get killed by AoOs before they do their trick.