Best Stand-alone class (core+complete)

[SeeDed]

I've read a lot of the classes and multi-class builds here and unfortunately my DM has created a situation that I can't find a good answer to without starting a new thread and it is this;

1. Casting now costs shards which you only get, at chance, by killing enemies (in addition to all other requirements), there are no magic items, and because of the lack of shards, nobody wants to heal or buff because the other characters won't give them shards.

2. Core plus Complete books only (no UA, SC, etc)

3. DM is a Rules Lawyer who if he doesn't know or understand something will stop the game to look up everything he can find to make sure you don't "outsmart" him.

4. Rule 1 came into play after the game started and the strongest players are ranged, only weak/new players in melee.

5. Level 5 character but could be going epic.

With all of this I'm at a loss as to what I should make. I was thinking a Glaivelock until I saw that glaive isn't from a Complete book, I was thinking Rogue but I can't really be certain of getting flanking at any given time (and no easy way to cause dex loss at low levels), and I was thinking of biting the bullet and making a solid tank but since there is no real healer I'd need to be able to survive solo and if I cleric/pally heal myself then I'd need to be able to kill enough on my own to take gems...

Can anyone suggest a good build for this?

tl;dr No straight casters, not going to get heals/buffs, no magic items, and core+complete only, what would you do?

[Jarian]

Druid. text.

[Morph Bark]

If Player's Handbook II is available (it counts under "expanded Core", alongside DMG II and XPH), you can take a single level in Dragon Shaman for the Vigor aura so you at least have some passive healing up 1/2 to everyone's hp.

If Invocations don't require those shards, which you appear to imply, a Warlock can indeed be a solid choice, but due to the limitations the best options (glaive for melee, Hellfire Warlock in general) are out, you would just have to focus on ranged blasting.

A Ranger with ACFs is a great stand-alone, single-party type class. It can get Wildshape from Unearthed Arcana (in the SRD), trade Track for Trapfinding (unsure where, but this might be from Dragon magazine) and more. Wildshape Ranger alone could be very good.

Glancing over the Tier system, it appears there are no non-casting Tier 3 classes in the available sources you got. For Tier 4 noncasters you have Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade and Spellthief. Warlock counts due to having invocations. Hexblade and Ranger and Spellthief are only half-casters, so no biggie (plus Ranger can trade spellcasting for bonus feats, too). Spellthief can be very handy if you encounter a lot of spellcasters, but only if the DM isn't going to be an ass and say you still need to provide shards to cast stolen spells. Doubt your DM will do that though, if I got the right feel of him with what you say here.

[ahenobarbi]

How about Human Cleric/Druid/Wizard + reserve feats from Complete Mage?

You would- use reserve feats on regular basis and spells when situation gets serious enough to use shards. There are various reserve feats: for healing, blasting, summoning...

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'd actually go Warlock/Wizard/Eldritch Theurge and call it a day. You use your warlock powers for just about everything and your spells for "crunch" times.

[SeeDed]

The ruling from him is still out a to whether phb2 is valid and if invocations cost shards our not. I am not near my books right now sol I'll need to look at the reserve feats, it just all comes down to his classification of SLAs and whether they cost shards... Thanks for all the quick responses.

[Malroth]

warlock/ur priest/eldritch desciple with the touch of healing reserve feat.

[Morph Bark]

Shame this isn't a level 1 game. Then I'd suggest you break out the WBL with Aristocrat.

[Eldariel]

Druid is still fine. Wildshape and Animal Companion are both really good and you have casting for when you can afford it. Just feat for combat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I agree 100% that Druid is the way to go here. Even more so if MM3 is available as part of an extended core set, and/or if the DM has or will ever use monsters from it.

Per Complete Mage (top of page 37, first sentence), Reserve feats are Supernatural and thus should never require the use of a shard, even if they're required for spell-like abilities.

I'd definitely get Natural Bond (CV) at 1st level, a reserve feat at 3rd, and Summon Elemental at 9th. Maybe get Natural Spell at 6th if you think you'll need it, otherwise get some sort of melee combat feats. Use either Human or Gnome for your race, if Human you'll be able to get more combat feats or a prerequisite for something better. Strong choices include Improved Unarmed Strike for Improved Grapple, Combat Expertise for Improved Trip, and both Combat Reflexes and Power Attack are also good choices. You may also want to consider Extra Wild Shape at 6th, considering he may throw the occasional Church Inquisitor at you just to run you out of Wild Shape uses for a given day. Plus using Wild Shape heals you as though you rested for a night, which will come in handy.

With Natural Bond you can get a 'level -3' companion and still count your full Druid level toward its benefits because you get to apply your own effects in the most beneficial order. RAW as per the last paragraph of the Animal Companion class feature text, as long as you're at least a 4th level Druid and your effective Druid level for a given companion's benefits would be greater than zero, you can have that creature as an animal companion. Starting out you can have a companion from the 'level -6' list, because the text of the ability trumps the '7th level or higher' header on the table. I'd start with a Tiger companion, unless you can use MM3 in which case get a Fleshraker dinosaur.

For your 3rd level reserve feat, I'd get either Fiery Burst (CM) or Touch of Healing (CC). With Touch of Healing you can heal everyone up to 50% of their max HP between encounters, and they would have to find a way to heal themselves beyond that. With Fiery Burst you can keep a fire spell prepared and deal (spell level) d6 fire damage to a 5-ft. radius burst within 30 ft. at will. There are core fire spells on the Druid list at every level except 3rd, 8th, and 9th, and from the Completes there's Fire Wings (CD) at 3rd and Transmute Rock to Lava (CA) at 9th. That only leaves a gap at 8th level, at which point an extra 1d6 fire damage per use isn't going to make a huge difference. I'd mostly get this to hit multiple opponents, give you a somewhat reliable ranged attack, and to deal with regenerating foes.

Consider taking Master of Many Forms after Druid 5, in which case you'll want Touch of Healing as Fiery Burst won't get any better, and you may even want to skip Natural Bond for more combat feats. Looking through the core monsters whose forms you'd be able to use though, I'd say unless you can use MM3 you'll probably be better off just staying single-classed Druid.

[Greyfeld85]

I agree with Druid. And if your DM tells you that you need shards to use Wild Shape, tell him that you expect the Fighter to have to burn a shard every time he Power Attacks, since he's also using his class features.

[SeeDed]

Update from the dm saying SLAs are not going to cost a shard. Thank you all for the input, there is already a druid unfortunately and while mine would be better especially with your notes here, I don't want to step on any toes so I think I'm going to take the warlock base that was suggested. Any more tips tricks or suggestions would still be appreciated though.

[JellyPooga]

I'm going to throw in my 2p with a straight Scout build. It's one of the few classes I'd be willing to take from 1st to 20th (or more) without multiclassing or taking any Prestige Classes.

Sure its damage output isn't great, but you get a boatload of skills, decent HD, no "dead levels" (as far as I remember) and some useful and interesting class features (not least of which including an Extraordinary Freedom of Movement effect).

Level 5 is a nice starting point for a Scout because you've already got Uncanny Dodge and Evasion and are starting to output some half decent damage with Skirmish. Your Bonus Feat at 4th level also means you could be looking at picking up Spring Attack at 6th level and Elusive Target (Complete Warrior) at 9th, both of which are very handy in a offensively-defensive way.

edit: Oh yeah, Scout meshes well with at least the Druid in the party for theme as well.

[kardar233]

If SLAs don't cost you anything go Warlock. You get all the nice toys like flight and invisibility, decent offense (that becomes good with Eldritch Glaive) and you can do it all day.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you can take item creation feats, Warlock will be absolutely amazing at level 12.

[Togo]

Master of Many forms, either with Ranger ACF, or Druid entry, is very powerful. If you can get access to (su) abilities, either through savage species (3.0 material, so possibly dubious) or through epic feats, then you're in one of the strongest non-spellcasting p-classes in the game.

[Averis Vol]

I'm going to throw in my 2p with a straight Scout build. It's one of the few classes I'd be willing to take from 1st to 20th (or more) without multiclassing or taking any Prestige Classes.

Sure its damage output isn't great, but you get a boatload of skills, decent HD, no "dead levels" (as far as I remember) and some useful and interesting class features (not least of which including an Extraordinary Freedom of Movement effect).

Level 5 is a nice starting point for a Scout because you've already got Uncanny Dodge and Evasion and are starting to output some half decent damage with Skirmish. Your Bonus Feat at 4th level also means you could be looking at picking up Spring Attack at 6th level and Elusive Target (Complete Warrior) at 9th, both of which are very handy in a offensively-defensive way.

edit: Oh yeah, Scout meshes well with at least the Druid in the party for theme as well.

Seconding scout. It can do traps (check the erreta) and pump some decent damage, just dip a level of cleric for the TU attempts and get travel devotion.

[Gwendol]

Bard. Inspire courage is never wrong, and shouldn't cost you shards. Take the feats to pump it up and the party will love you. Pump up diplomacy for the rest of the world to love you as well.

[hoverfrog]

Are these shards material components? If so then take the Eschew Materials feat (about the only time is would be of any use) and take a straight up wizard. In fact why hasn't someone done this and started selling spell castings or the products of spells (mending is always useful) for shards which you'd then sell on to other spell casters at a profit.

If not then druids are always awesome.

[Telonius]

One suggestion to the party Cleric (or Paladin) - the Sacred Healing feat from Complete Divine. It's not much (Fast Healing 3 for 1+Cha rounds) but "some healing" is better than "no healing."

EDIT: Quick question though ... OP said "no magic items." How hard-and-fast is that rule? Unless the party has some fairly reliable means of getting magic weapons, you're going to have some serious problems with DR/Magic foes as you move up in level. If that's really the case, it will almost require the melee/ranged folks to do things like take a level in Kensai, or be Monks.

EDIT2: Thinking about this a bit more ... no magic items would usually mean either very low wealth, not much to buy even if you did come across a lot of cash, or both. This might be a situation where establishing yourselves as crafters could help out. Instead of getting power through items, you'd be getting power through business and/or political connections.

Craft (Alchemy) could be a great way to do this that also helps you out in adventuring. It does require the character to be a spellcaster, but half-casters count for that. There are a number of useful Alchemical items in the PHB, Complete Adventurer, and Complete Scoundrel. (Probably others as well, but those three would be my go-tos). Some nifty buffs would be available that you wouldn't otherwise get.

[Greyfeld85]

Seconding scout. It can do traps (check the erreta) and pump some decent damage, just dip a level of cleric for the TU attempts and get travel devotion.

Wait, why would you need travel devotion?

If the OP even considers Scout, I'd suggest Scout 3/Ranger 17, with the Swift Hunter feat and the Greater Manyshot feat chain.

[Bloodgruve]

Wait, why would you need travel devotion?

If the OP even considers Scout, I'd suggest Scout 3/Ranger 17, with the Swift Hunter feat and the Greater Manyshot feat chain.

Travel Devotion lets you move your speed as a swift action for 1 minute/day and another minute per 2 turn undead that you burn on it. Take better advantage of full attacks and Skirmish damage, very good for iterative attacks and melee scouts.

OP could look at Psionics if SRD is available and also Ardent from Complete Psionic. I like the Ardent and Psychic Warriors.

Blood~

[Zombulian]

If you can take item creation feats, Warlock will be absolutely amazing at level 12.

I agree. Go with your regular warlock build, and then at level 12, pick up an Item Familiar to give you extra XP for crafting. I can't remember what book Chameleon is in right now, but it gives you a floating feat you could use for different creation feats...

[Greyfeld85]

Travel Devotion lets you move your speed as a swift action for 1 minute/day and another minute per 2 turn undead that you burn on it. Take better advantage of full attacks and Skirmish damage, very good for iterative attacks and melee scouts.

OP could look at Psionics if SRD is available and also Ardent from Complete Psionic. I like the Ardent and Psychic Warriors.

Blood~

Aside from the fact that you'd have to either worship one of the handful of deities that has the travel domain, or somehow convince your DM that, "Of course it's perfectly normal for my totally unreligious scout to take a level of cleric, and look, he doesn't worship a deity but he follows the tenants of travel, so he can take this neat little feat!!" the fact is, it's incredibly unnecessary.

Taking the Greater Manyshot feat chain grants the effects of a full attack on a standard action, which allows you to use your move action to... you know... move. And you don't have to worry about cheesing out your character with a dip into a completely unrelated class to get a feat that you can only use a couple times per day.

The only scouts that should be doing melee are Dervish Scouts.

[Eldariel]

Taking the Greater Manyshot feat chain grants the effects of a full attack on a standard action, which allows you to use your move action to... you know... move. And you don't have to worry about cheesing out your character with a dip into a completely unrelated class to get a feat that you can only use a couple times per day.

You're at -8 though, and you can't benefit of Haste/Rapid Shot and all that.

[Randomguy]

If ACF chaining is allowed, I'd say wildshape barbarian (swap range for archery combat style, which you swap for wildshape), going into master of many forms. You don't step on the druid's toes too much. Wildshape ranger works too.


You could try a sorcadin gish build. You get some casting, some fighting ability and even some healing thanks to lay on hands. You could even afford to make it a mostly melee build, possibly Paladin 4/Sorc2/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade XX if allowed, since magic doesn't matter as much and since you'll get 9th's past epic level.


I'd say eldritch theurge or eldritch disciple with a bunch of reserve feats would probably be your best bet, though.

[Greyfeld85]

You're at -8 though, and you can't benefit of Haste/Rapid Shot and all that.

Haste I'll give you, but Manyshot gives the same number of attacks as Rapid Shot, so that's a moot point.

Admittedly, you take a hefty to-hit penalty, but that's why Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter builds are better than a straight Scout build: higher BAB, full iteratives, favored enemies, and spellcasting.

Scout, while flavorful, doesn't really fill a role that the Ranger class doesn't already. It grants extra damage in the way of Skirmish, but with the "swift" feats, there's just no reason to ever take more than a 3 level dip in the class, from a purely optimization perspective.

Though i'd like to see if anybody can put together a scout dervish build... I'm not very good with TO, but I feel like the skirmish damage a scout does would fit well in a Dervish character, if I could figure out a way to keep the skirmish progression going after starting the PrC.

[Piggy Knowles]

Also, Greater Manyshot is in XPH, which may or may not be considered core by the OP's DM.

For core/completes fun, it's hard to go wrong with a Barbarian Bear Warrior (CWar), perhaps with some Fist of the Forest (CChamp) mixed in.

[Randomguy]

Oh! I just realised! In a world with no magic items, a warlock with baleful utterance can shatter ANYTHING!

[Greyfeld85]

Also, Greater Manyshot is in XPH, which may or may not be considered core by the OP's DM.

For core/completes fun, it's hard to go wrong with a Barbarian Bear Warrior (CWar), perhaps with some Fist of the Forest (CChamp) mixed in.

It's on the SRD, so it really boils down to whether they're using SRD or PHB-only.

[Eldariel]

Haste I'll give you, but Manyshot gives the same number of attacks as Rapid Shot, so that's a moot point.

Rapid Shot Full Attack on 16 is 5 attacks, Greater Manyshot is 4...

[Zombulian]

So wait, are magic items just banned? Or can you make em... cuz if it's the former then my idea is worthless. Also guys, he said no UA.

[Curmudgeon]

Aside from the fact that you'd have to either worship one of the handful of deities that has the travel domain,
It's a bit more than a handful; here are just some of the options.

Core Deities: Fharlanghn.
Eberron Deities: Kol Korran, the Traveler.
Forgotten Realms Deities: Akadi, Baervan Wildwanderer, Brandobaris, Fenmarel Mestarine, Gwaeron Windstrom, Hoar, Istishia, Kelemvor, Lliira, Marthammor Duin, Mielikki, Oghma, Sehanine Moonbow, Selûne, Sharess, Shaundakul, Tymora, Vhaeraun, Waukeen.
Other Deities: Celestian, Cyndor, Geshtai, Lirr, Mouqol, Osprem, Procan, Rillifane Rallathil, Sixin, Taiia.

it's incredibly unnecessary.

Taking the Greater Manyshot feat chain grants the effects of a full attack on a standard action
That's not right on a couple of counts. Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) is incredibly expensive:
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6. Plus, it doesn't give "the effects of a full attack".
However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three arrows and -8 for four). For hard-to-hit targets, -8 to all attacks could mean all misses. On the other hand, for easy-to-hit targets it could mean all hits compared to a miss or two with a full attack. The point is, it's a numerically different effect than the full attack mechanic.

Anyway, the more important point is the high cost makes a 1-level Cloistered Cleric dip a credibly better option compared to devoting many resources for a solution that's not only more expensive but situational: i.e., it's good only for ranged attacks. Travel Devotion is good for not only ranged and melee Scout attacks, but also generally utilitarian. For instance, if you just need to get somewhere in a hurry, more movement is good to have.This is the color of sarcasm, histrionics, and other such nonsense.

[Averis Vol]

If ACF chaining is allowed, I'd say wildshape barbarian (swap range for archery combat style, which you swap for wildshape)


it SO doesn't work that way. :smallannoyed:

ones a ranger ACF, the others a barbarian. just beacuse you have the ame named class feature doesn't mean you get to cross class ACF.

[Gavinfoxx]

Druid already steps on everyone's toes. So don't worry about stepping on the Druid's toes!

[SeeDed]

I'm probably missing replying to a few things here but the no magic items thing is at creation, no ACF chains, he'll likely put restrictions on anything multi- or PRc by methods such as requiring training and the standard xp penalty. Also, I am a late comer to the game and they are in the middle of nowhere so training is unlikely. A far a book vs SRD, it's books only. I'll try and answer more on my next break.

[Piggy Knowles]

Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) is incredibly expensive:

Overall I agree, except that an archery-focused Swift Hunter will probably have all of these pre-reqs anyhow. Rapid Shot and Manyshot are both ranger bonus feats, and most characters wouldn't have a problem meeting either the Dex requirement or the PBS feat requirement.

But Greater Manyshot takes a lot longer to come on board than Travel Devotion, and as was pointed out, Travel Devotion is useful in many more situations. And if this is a strict Core+Completes game that doesn't allow UA (implying that the SRD isn't allowed carte blanche), then it might be easier to get a cleric dip and Travel Devotion across than Greater Manyshot, which appears in XPH.

Just watch out for favored class penalties....

[Gavinfoxx]

Prestige Classes don't have an XP Penalty, though.

Is he going to add them?

Okay, no magic items, no prestige classes, little to no spells at game start, you get your fancy PrC when he says so, he is adding crazy restrictions to spellcasting but not SLA...

Yea, Wild Shape and Animal Companion focused Druid... or Wildshape Ranger if you can get permission to go into Master of Many Forms early on. If he doesn't let you start with spells, you might even not have Natural Spell (gasp!). Can you at least get your summon nature's ally spells for all spell slots as a Druid?

I haven't looked exactly at your sources... see what you can ask for?

Here are the good Wild Shape and Animal Companion feats:

Dragon Wild Shape (Draconomicon)
Exalted Wild Shape (Book of Exalted Deeds)
Frozen Wild Shape (Frostburn)

((Note that all three of those allow forms which you can talk in wild shape)

Natural Spell (if you can get SOME spells!) (phb)
Assume Supernatural Ability (Savage Species)
Multiattack (Monster Manual)
Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual)

And some animal companion ones..

Natural Bond (Complete Adventurer, but only if he reads it as lowering a penalty on higher quality animal companions)
Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a )

Note that there are several items -- including one core item in the DMG (it is in the cursed items section) -- which let you communicate while in Wild Shape. Just make sure to take it off, Wild Shape, and then have an assistant put it on you, so you can communicate.

[demigodus]

So he is a rules lawyer? That means use the rules to your advantage. Want to dance a jig on the druid's toes without taking any levels in druid? Max out Handle Animal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm). Skill Focus, Animal Affinity, a masterwork item, 14 Cha, and any class that has Handle Animal as a class skill (even works with commoner!)

you will have a score equal to 3 (SF) + 2 (AA) + 2 (item) + 2 (Cha) + 3 + level (ranks) = 12 + level in it. Take 10 for rearing. Say your character spent 9 hours per day raising his pets (rather reasonable... he could have spent rest of his time raising animals to sell to others to cover his expenses). You enter session with 9! animals, each with hid dice equal to 7 + your level.

All at the cost of 1 skill (or 2 if you want to ride them), 2 feats, a 50gp item, and a decent charisma. This uses precisely 0 class features, which means it works with a ton of classes.

[SeeDed]

Are these shards material components? If so then take the Eschew Materials feat (about the only time is would be of any use) and take a straight up wizard. In fact why hasn't someone done this and started selling spell castings or the products of spells (mending is always useful) for shards which you'd then sell on to other spell casters at a profit.

If not then druids are always awesome.

Sorry, missed replying to this one earlier, they are more like a one use focus or fetish... Can't eschew them.

The XP thing I mentioned was for base classes not PRCs, it was in response to some dip suggestions.

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember, humans have favored class: any, so they can take two base classes and have then not be close to levels... I believe you can choose your highest levelled class as your favored class, or choose it at character creation...

So, say, a Human Sorcerer 8/Barbarian1/Cleric1 doesn't get any multiclassing xp penalties, I believe, since he is taking Sorcerer as his favored class.