OOTS #855 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

Kickstarter update a little later.

[SgtCarnage92]

Ah, more fantastic 4th wall breakage and a great flashback to Roy's "glory days". Brilliant as always :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Sweet!

What are Roy's classmates doing in the last panel? Is that paint? (Red in the bucket, orange in the balloons.)

And I'm starting to get really worried about V/Blackwing :smallfrown:

[Argok]

They should just set some traps off so Nale and them think they got injured while going through.

[Geech]

Are those balloons filled with urine? It's the wrong color to be the paint.

[rgrekejin]

Huh. I wonder exactly what they're planning to do in terms of laying a trap in what is essentially a big, empty hallway with nothing to obstruct visibility. This will be interesting.

[ben-zayb]

Golden as always, Giant! :smallcool:

I thought there would be some cutaway too. Poor V has to wait for the his/her screentime... :smallsigh:

[Crusher]

Red paint in the water balloon to mark hits, just like in paintball. Good for practicing crits, too.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Sweetness. You're just making me even more excited for the next update.

[Geech]

Red paint in the water balloon to mark hits, just like in paintball. Good for practicing crits, too.

Ah, I get it now. Red paint plus yellow balloons equals orange paint balloon.

[homeosapiens]

{{scrubbed}}

[Whiffet]

"I really felt like there was going to be a cutaway panel there," decent planning, and a glimpse of Roy's days at Fighter College. I like this.

[ti'esar]

Wow. Unless I'm mistaken, it's been a long time since Roy last mentioned Fighter College.

A bit concerned that they're planning to fight without even trying to find V, though.

[Forikroder]

guess in fighter college Roy would constitute a nerd

[Jay R]

The missing cutaway panel was a far more effective cutaway panel than an actual cutaway panel would have been.

[Tohron]

So they "know" there could have been a cutaway panel, but do they "know" it would have been to V? And do they know they "know"?

[KoboldRevenge]

Nice! Is that like urine or something in those balloons? Also what's the red paint for?

[Endon the White]

What are the yellow bags they're holding?

[ti'esar]

By the way, this hasn't replaced 854's thread as the sticky.

[Jay R]

What are the yellow bags they're holding?

Water balloons - filled with red paint.

[Forikroder]

wonder what spell durkon has that can be used to be sneaky

wonder if theres going to be another throwback to the dungeon of dorukon and have Durkons armour give them away like elans "I GOT A 9"

EDIT missing an A in Distracted in panel 3

[Psyren]

Ah - I see that the balloons are yellow now, explaining the orange.


guess in fighter college Roy would constitute a nerd

Yep. The main driving force behind his character is that he's not the typical "dumb fighter" archetype, and uses his head as much as his muscles. Unfortunately, all his schoolmates seem to have been more... traditional.

It's a pity, because he'd have made a fantastic Warblade - and likely stomped the lot of them to boot!

[Rasief]

Maybe not important but, where is Mr. Scruffy?

[bronnt]

They expected the cut-away panel, it didn't happen, and then Elan showed up for the first time this strip. They should have acted surprised to see him, at that point.

I'm really sad that Elan didn't get to show us the montage. Nothing like a good montage where you see some little details of the preparations that don't make sense, and aren't explained until the culmination of the plan. It's such a tantalizing opportunity for Elan's dramatic sense.

[Riverdance]

Now I want to know what Durkon's spell is going to be. I wonder what kind of books one reads in fighter college.

[Gift Jeraff]

Hmmm, they also thought splitting up in Cliffport was putting the odds in their favour, but ended falling right into Nale's trap so I wonder what will happen here...

And I can't help but shake this feeling that Qarr secretly replaced Blackwing. The OOTS have terrible Spot checks, so he could have easily killed Blackwing on the carpet ride without them noticing. Imps have the ability to shapechange into ravens. Blackwing was noticeably quiet in Windy Canyon, not mentioning the whole "those archfiends are probably after the Gates" thing to V. And we don't get a cutaway panel to V and Blackwing after Qarr returns to the Linear Guild?

I doubt it's the case; seems rather cheap, but I'm just throwing it out there.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[HUMVEE Driver]

Kick ass, Roy!

[MoonCat]

Oh dear. It just occrred to me that Roy was something of a nerd back in college. Love it! :smallsmile:

[Peelee]

Hmmm, they also thought splitting up in Cliffport was putting the odds in their favour, but ended falling right into Nale's trap so I wonder what will happen here...

And I can't help but shake this feeling that Qarr secretly replaced Blackwing. The OOTS have terrible Spot checks, so he could have easily killed Blackwing on the carpet ride without them noticing. Imps have the ability to shapechange into ravens. Blackwing was noticeably quiet in Windy Canyon, not mentioning the whole "those archfiends are probably after the Gates" thing to V. And we don't get a cutaway panel to V and Blackwing after Qarr returns to the Linear Guild?

I doubt it's the case; seems rather cheap, but I'm just throwing it out there.

Wouldn't V's empathic link make that a very dicey ploy for the imp?

[rewinn]

I wonder what kind of books one reads in fighter college.

Ironically, the top volume Roy's carrying is "The Tactical Value of Surprise"

[Shmuel]

Cute. :)

Also, panel 3: "distrcted" should be "distracted."

[Gift Jeraff]

Wouldn't V's empathic link make that a very dicey ploy for the imp?Thanks, I forgot about that. Probably debunks the whole idea, unless in the OOTSiverse it's not something active all of the time (but from what I can tell it always is by RAW).

[Anarion]

I'd suggest that Roy's ability to deliver that college line with a straight face speaks to his maturity and character growth since heaven. But actually, it's probably that he's so numb to the pain that he shows no emotion.

[Forikroder]

Hmmm, they also thought splitting up in Cliffport was putting the odds in their favour, but ended falling right into Nale's trap so I wonder what will happen here...

And I can't help but shake this feeling that Qarr secretly replaced Blackwing. The OOTS have terrible Spot checks, so he could have easily killed Blackwing on the carpet ride without them noticing. Imps have the ability to shapechange into ravens. Blackwing was noticeably quiet in Windy Canyon, not mentioning the whole "those archfiends are probably after the Gates" thing to V. And we don't get a cutaway panel to V and Blackwing after Qarr returns to the Linear Guild?

I doubt it's the case; seems rather cheap, but I'm just throwing it out there.
wizards and there familiars are much closer connected then just being 2 creatures who hang around, if blackwing died V would know isntantly

[AdamS]

Woo! My first oots discussion post!

Anyway. I'm wondering as well what kind of fighter college courses would even require books. Other than architecture and engineering of course. :smallcool:

[Emperordaniel]

Great comic. And add me to the list of those curious about Durkon's spell... :smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

Woo! My first oots discussion post!

Anyway. I'm wondering as well what kind of fighter college courses would even require books. Other than architecture and engineering of course. :smallcool:It's those damned D&D rules. Roy had to study an entire book on attacks of opportunity. :smalltongue:

[Sith_Happens]

It's those damned D&D rules. Roy had to study an entire book on attacks of opportunity. :smalltongue:

Not to mention the weed-out course, Grappling 205.:smallwink::smalleek:

Meanwhile, I'm happy because I was about to go to sleep, but suddenly thought "There's finally a new OotS, I know it." And there was! Does that make me a future psychic or a fifteen-minutes-ago psychic?

[Mutant Sheep]

That orange liquid clearly looks like human urine.:smalltongue: It nice Rich used the secrets of the color wheel, I forgot those. The color+ another color=a different color that kind of looks like both the colors mixed together always gets me.

[RMS Oceanic]

I smiled at "sneak attacks are great for Sneak Atttacks". :smallsmile:

This is Roy using them brain meats again. Straight up fighting wasn't very effective, so now we resort to hit-and-run. Lets hope they get a few good hits in!

[ysath]

I suppose the giant was a bit distracted when he wrote "distracted" as it's missing it's "a".

[skaddix]

An ambush nice.

[Icedaemon]

Roy in teal, the rest in orange? Did the school group them into teams/houses to foster competition?

[RMS Oceanic]

Roy in teal, the rest in orange? Did the school group them into teams/houses to foster competition?

More likely they're a Fraternity and Roy was the weird guy who actually studied instead of joining one.

[stsasser]

Sharpie fumes = *snert*

[Hogwarts9876]

Not to mention the weed-out course, Grappling 205.:smallwink::smalleek:

Meanwhile, I'm happy because I was about to go to sleep, but suddenly thought "There's finally a new OotS, I know it." And there was! Does that make me a future psychic or a fifteen-minutes-ago psychic?

I did (pretty much) the same thing! I thought, "There's a new OotS", then I checked and there was! :smallbiggrin:

[Trixie]

Huh, these look like 'jarate' balloons...? :smallconfused:

TF2 sneak mention?

[voiceofreason]

Interesting to track the changes in Roy's hairdo.

[stsasser]

Maybe not important but, where is Mr. Scruffy?

Sitting beside the first trap in the missing cutaway panel.

Note: Mr. Scruffy's location is ALWAYS important!

[Castamir]

Are those balloons filled with urine? It's the wrong color to be the paint.
You mean, what's exactly a wrong colour to be paint? If a colour exists, there is paint of it. And if paint doesn't exist, it will be mixed.

[theNater]

So, as the characters mentioned, we didn't get a cutaway panel. That begs the question of why we didn't get a cutaway panel. I see two possibilities.

The sensible possibility: the Giant doesn't want to overuse the same shot of V unconscious. By having the characters comment, we get a little more humor out of the same setup.

The paranoid possibility: something has happened to V. Something shocking and important to the story. Did an adopted Draketooth spirit V away? Has V regained consciousness and begun the process of running to the Order's rescue? Has the ancient black dragon, back from the dead, eaten V's corpse? Did V die and become a ghast, as a result of an old ghast wound that's been festing all this time? Did V land on the gate, allowing the snarl an opportunity to unmake our favorite loquacious elven wizard? What could it be?

It's probably that sensible thing, really.

[Trixie]

You mean, what's exactly a wrong colour to be paint? If a colour exists, there is paint of it. And if paint doesn't exist, it will be mixed.

I think he means balloons are wrong colour. Red paint plus yellow balloon shouldn't give exact-mix orange, it should be just slightly brighter red unless the balloon was nearly completely opaque and they don't look like that.

As for mixing paints, I've never seen good approximation of skin colour, it's always either too much pink, yellow, or white :smalltongue:

[Emperordaniel]

Did V die and become a ghast, as a result of an old ghast wound that's been festing all this time?

Nice callback to the Dungeon of Dorukan. :smallbiggrin:

[Kareasint]

That dungeon would have been more fun with the illusions. At some point, they need to start looking for V inside. Given the way that V ran out of the room after seeing the painting on the wall, I am surprised that Roy did not put two-and-two together after Belkar's comment.

[Burner28]

The line about the cutaway panel was the best part!:smallbiggrin:

[ulgulanoth]

Excelent comic! Now I wonder how Tarquin is going to react to being ambushed...

[elros]

I like how the update moves the plot forward, but I wonder why the pranksters "got extra credit for it, too." Doesn't that sound like something that would be looked upon as too "roguish"? Fighters are all about being front line, uh, fighters!

[Mike Havran]

One wild theory here:

What if the beat panel actually was a cutaway panel, and the Order actually walked into some deathtrap right now? I would expect that Girard creates a massive, well-hidden and cunning deathtrap, decorated with some easily detectable traps.

[FAD!]

The cleric did it better. :smallwink:

[HandofShadows]

Nice to see Roy using his brain and the rest of the Order doing their jobs correctly. Hope it's enough. :smalleek:

[Ron Miel]

That orange liquid clearly looks like human urine.:smalltongue:

If your urine is that colour, you should probably seek medical advice straight away.

[Brumski]

Whats with the asterisks around the " I " when Belkar is talking?

[Xelbiuj]

Whats with the asterisks around the " I " when Belkar is talking?

It means hes adding emphasis, Belkar has a horrible spot check.

*too lazy to find any examples*
Someone want to link the ninja one and the "Put some points into spot already!"?

Anyways, I think the theory that *they're* the goons walking into a trap but I doubt it. Of course the Linear Guild wanted to herd them down there so . . .

I doubt the IFCC will be using V anytime soon, the LG are their pawns anyways, no reason to play that card until the very end. (last gate) Especially with the risk of Xykon showing up in the near future.

[pendell]

Huzzah! An update! And Roy showing tactical intelligence! Of course, this being the OOTS it'll go pear-shaped in a hurry , but at least it's a start!

Double points for wall-breaking and Belkar's "bloody, bloody language". I LOVE this strip! It's like all the reasons I read this comic rolled into one!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[zimmerwald1915]

It's probably that sensible thing, really.
Bite your tongue, sir!

[Onyavar]

I did (pretty much) the same thing! I thought, "There's a new OotS", then I checked and there was! :smallbiggrin:

Yes, I did this too. Of course, I have this feeling every third day... so... um. I was actually suprised that my gut feeling was right.


I think he means balloons are wrong colour. Red paint plus yellow balloon shouldn't give exact-mix orange, it should be just slightly brighter red unless the balloon was nearly completely opaque and they don't look like that.

As for mixing paints, I've never seen good approximation of skin colour, it's always either too much pink, yellow, or white :smalltongue:

Agreed on the yellow-orange-red mix, it's really odd. However, I don't think they mixed color with urine (gross!). I think it's supposed to be simply red color in the balloon/grenades.

As for mixing paints, skin colour IS really hard to mix. The reason for this is, we expect skin to be a texture. If you take a digital photo of your skin, and pick one pixel as skin colour, you won't really get the feeling of skin when you paint that skin on a digital canvas. (I have the same problem with gold, iron, wood, most of the time.)

[Forikroder]

Yes, I did this too. Of course, I have this feeling every third day... so... um. I was actually suprised that my gut feeling was right.

you can just follow him on twitter and know exactly when it comes out

[Jay R]

Woo! My first oots discussion post!

Anyway. I'm wondering as well what kind of fighter college courses would even require books. Other than architecture and engineering of course. :smallcool:

If you get On the Origin of the PCs, you'll see several examples of the books needed for his exam in Attacks of Opportunity. I hear all the books are back in print.


I like how the update moves the plot forward, but I wonder why the pranksters "got extra credit for it, too." Doesn't that sound like something that would be looked upon as too "roguish"? Fighters are all about being front line, uh, fighters!

No, a complete fighter is all about fighting effectively however needed. This includes front-line fights, skirmishes, castle sieges, cavalry charges, and yes, ambushes.

[Bulldog Psion]

The urine in balloons thing has to take the prize as the "weird forum theory of the week". :smallsigh:

1. We have a can of red paint open.
2. The red paint is not being used visibly for anything else.
3. There are two empty yellow balloons and two filled orange balloons sitting right next to the paint can.
4. Do you really expect an artist to fill a yellow balloon with red paint in order to get the exact subtle shade of the result rather than just say "red paint + yellow balloon = orange balloon contents" for a one-time, one-frame gag. :smallmad:

Do you honestly think that an artist getting a comic out for their fans is going to sit there for hours with a color card -- "oh, my, this is catastrophic, I didn't quite get the exactly hue and saturation to make these paint balloons 100% accurate yet! I must keep working to get the exact tint perfect even if there's only a 0.0034% difference in the colors!!! The world will end if I don't, ZOMG!!!!"

This is an example of massive overthinking and nitpicking leading to a gross and slightly ridiculous conclusion, and a truly pointless debate. Especially when Rich went to the effort of spelling everything out visually in excruciating detail.

While you're at it, how about nitpicking the fact that all larger shoes are on the farther side, meaning that all these guys secretly have one deformed foot? :smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh:

[Forikroder]

The urine in balloons thing has to take the prize as the "weird forum theory of the week". :smallsigh:

1. We have a can of red paint open.
2. The red paint is not being used visibly for anything else.
3. There are two empty yellow balloons and two filled orange balloons sitting right next to the paint can.
4. Do you really expect an artist to fill a yellow balloon with red paint in order to get the exact subtle shade of the result rather than just say "red paint + yellow balloon = orange balloon contents" for a one-time, one-frame gag. :smallmad:

Do you honestly think that an artist getting a comic out for their fans is going to sit there for hours with a color card -- "oh, my, this is catastrophic, I didn't quite get the exactly hue and saturation to make these paint balloons 100% accurate yet! I must keep working to get the exact tint perfect even if there's only a 0.0034% difference in the colors!!! The world will end if I don't, ZOMG!!!!"

This is an example of massive overthinking and nitpicking leading to a gross and slightly ridiculous conclusion, and a truly pointless debate. Especially when Rich went to the effort of spelling everything out visually in excruciating detail.

While you're at it, how about nitpicking the fact that all larger shoes are on the farther side, meaning that all these guys secretly have one deformed foot? :smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh:

i didnt notice the can of red paint until my second read through, its not the most attention grabbing part of the page

[pendell]

This is an example of massive overthinking and nitpicking leading to a gross and slightly ridiculous conclusion, and a truly pointless debate.


Massive overthinking? This ... is .. THE PLAYGROUND!!!!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[meto30]

I have to say, I am again disheartened to know that there are much fun content to be enjoyed in the printed books, which are hard to obtain here in Korea. How I would love to get my hands on the entire set.

Then again, I wonder what Tarquin's reaction to the laid ambush will be, if it comes to it. Looking at his history, I would expect him to be used to ambushes, on both the giving and the receiving ends.

[brionl]

Roy in teal, the rest in orange? Did the school group them into teams/houses to foster competition?

In On The Origin of PCs Roy has a run in with some guys from the ΒΑΒ fraternity. That's probably them again.

[Ron Miel]

Anyway. I'm wondering as well what kind of fighter college courses would even require books. Other than architecture and engineering of course. :smallcool:

Are you joking? There's lots of books that a fighter should be studying.

Battle strategy, for a start. Study the battles of the past, see who won, and lost, and why.

The monster manual. He can learn about foes he might encounter. See their strengths, and their weaknesses, and thus know how best to defeat them.

Basic battlefield medicine. Learn how to splint a broken arm. Usefull for when the team cleric is out of commission.

Spell lists. Useful to know what the enemy might use against you, or what the spellcasters under your command can do to the enemy.

Financial management. Make sure that you purchase enough arrows for your archers, enough food to feed your troops, etc. Make sure the suppliers get paid, and that you have sufficient funds to cover your expenses.

Lots of stuff, really.

[zimmerwald1915]

Are you joking? There's lots of books that a fighter should be studying.
Strictly speaking, these are things any commander, regardless of character class, should be studying. Roy is a Fighter who has trained himself for command, thus this all applies to Roy. It does not necessarily apply across the board to all Fighters.

[Bulldog Psion]

Massive overthinking? This ... is .. THE PLAYGROUND!!!!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Yeah, I know :smallamused:. Silly of me.

But this is so blatantly obvious -- it's like a debate starting up over whether Evisceratus (sp.) actually died of a heart attack in the privy. Every bit of necessary information is spelled out clearly "on screen", yet a bizarre tangent still springs up vigorously. :smalleek:

[Forikroder]

Strictly speaking, these are things any commander, regardless of character class, should be studying. Roy is a Fighter who has trained himself for command, thus this all applies to Roy. It does not necessarily apply across the board to all Fighters.

i think its safe to assume that all fighters in fighters college are going to be studying that sort of thing if there a Thog sort of fighter then they wouldnt bother even going to college

though even for non-command type fighters there are things to study like the art of war, learning about different weapons and how to care for them, different types of armour e.t.c

[Gift Jeraff]

though even for non-command type fighters there are things to study like the art of war, learning about different weapons and how to care for them, different types of armour e.t.cI agree with this. Plus I've always interpreted fighter bonus feats as being "fighters study the art of combat more intensely than everyone else."

[zimmerwald1915]

i think its safe to assume that all fighters in fighters college are going to be studying that sort of thing if there a Thog sort of fighter then they wouldnt bother even going to college
Possibly. Remember, though, that Roy has a Master's degree and that there are presumably associates and baccalaureate degrees offered as well. Indeed, the name of Roy's degree - Master's of Battle Administration - suggests that he is trained specifically in command from a Fighter's point of view, and argues against this type of high-concept strategic and logistical training being the norm for all OOTS-verse Fighters.


though even for non-command type fighters there are things to study like the art of war, learning about different weapons and how to care for them, different types of armour e.t.c
That's a nice, and possibly true, argument. But that wasn't the argument Ron Miel made and wasn't the argument I was responding to. His argument was that it made sense for Fighters to be trained for command, and it does. My argument was that there is nothing specific about Fighters that makes them particularly suited to command, and that indeed Roy, and by extension other MBAs, are the expection rather than the rule. Another extension of this argument is that there is no character class particularly suited to command, either by temperment or by training. Rather, suitability for command is determined not by character type but by character.

It is someone's character that pushes them to seek or accept command training (in whatever particular character class idiom) or experience. Haley is a good in-comic example of this, as is Redcloak, particularly when compared with Belkar and Xykon, characters in similar situations and with similar prowess but with drastically different characters. And suitability for command has got nothing to do with alignment either: Roy, Haley, and Redcloak are LG, CG/N, and LE respectively.

[Kish]

My argument was that there is nothing specific about Fighters that makes them particularly suited to command,
Indeed, Roy never planned to lead an adventuring party. OtOoPCs spoilers:
He joined an adventuring party led by a (nominal) paladin and only created his own after the sole decent member of that adventuring party, Durkon, pushed him to do so.

[Vinsfeld]

:durkon: : me thinks I've got just tha spell.


"me thinks"?
I expect this from Thog, but not from Durkon.

[Kish]

"Methinks," a slightly archaic phrasing, is not the same as "me thinks," a way of sounding cartoonishly stupid.

(And Thog would have said, "thog thinks.")

[zimmerwald1915]

"Methinks," a slightly archaic phrasing, is not the same as "me thinks," a way of sounding cartoonishly stupid.

(And Thog would have said, "thog thinks.")

Or, more probably, "thog think!" The man wasn't big on subject-verb agreement.

[Bulldog Psion]

"Methinks," a slightly archaic phrasing, is not the same as "me thinks," a way of sounding cartoonishly stupid.

(And Thog would have said, "thog thinks.")

Yes, if anything, it's too lofty for Durkon's rather comedic accent. :smallwink:

[Emperordaniel]

:durkon: : me thinks I've got just tha spell.


"me thinks"?
I expect this from Thog, but not from Durkon.

Actually if you look closely, :durkon: said "methinks", not "me thinks". Two different things. :smallwink:

[rewinn]

Anyway. I'm wondering as well what kind of fighter college courses would even require books.

May I point out that IRL there are oodles of books about fighting technique. Competitive endeavours, of which combat most definitely is, can benefit from the recorded advice and experience of experts.

OTOH Roy may be merely testing the proposition: "The pen may be mightier than the sword, but the book is weaker than the paint balloon".

[snikrept]

Hmm, I wonder if what's unspoken about the last panel is: Roy is actually not the ambush victim but the second orange-wearing guy from the right, and back in college he still had hair and liked to dye it !

Also: what is Durkon casting in panel 1? Presumably healing, but...

[Felixc-91]

So, is V dead? What about recovering enough to get out of the pit? I know someone earlier mentioned that the lack of a cut away could be the giant not wanting to overuse the joke; but it does also leave us not knowing what's going on with V. could be something, could be nothing, I’m just curious to know which one...
On the other hand, I'm happy to see that Roy actually learned from his death. Before his death he had an excellent grasp of combat mechanics but his combat strategy was almost non-existent. Now he's using both. Good thing too, otherwise he would be dead, again. Dumb high level melee characters don't last very long against high level spell casters.

[Forikroder]

So, is V dead? What about recovering enough to get out of the pit? I know someone earlier mentioned that the lack of a cut away could be the giant not wanting to overuse the joke; but it does also leave us not knowing what's going on with V. could be something, could be nothing, I’m just curious to know which one...
On the other hand, I'm happy to see that Roy actually learned from his death. Before his death he had an excellent grasp of combat mechanics but his combat strategy was almost non-existent. Now he's using both. Good thing too, otherwise he would be dead, again. Dumb high level melee characters don't last very long against high level spell casters.

the only reason to cut too V would be to make us laugh but since the giant used that joke just a few strips ago it wouldnt be funny so he didnt do the cutaway because that was funnier

nothing at all can be glimpsed from him not doing the cutaway, it is almost impossible to think V can get out of the pit on his own since he probably requires healing to even wake up though its equally possible he doesnt need healing and could wake up any time now and blast his way out

[Dracarot]

To further the debate on Roy's curriculum load, I wonder if the OOTS universe has an equivalent of Sun Tzu. The Art of War is probably the ultimate strategic guide, but one of its key tenets is "War is the Art of Deception" and while Roy has used some deceptive tactics he hasn't exactly been famous for them. So that also raises the question of whether he studied Sun Tzu.

Below is a link to a history channel documentary on Sun Tzu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlzX2u6W_uw

[Lycar]

As for mixing paints, I've never seen good approximation of skin colour, it's always either too much pink, yellow, or white :smalltongue:
Don't forget to add some green. No really.

[LordRahl6]

It's no real surprise that Roy was all work and no play at the fighter college. Especially for those of us that have otOotPC's.

Still love all the blatant traps though in light to what happened to V. Was he just to distracted by the Familicide spell to notice them?:smallamused:

[Protecar]

It looks like Haley's Bow is missing in panel 6. It doesn't really bother me but it seems like it might be an error and I'm not sure if anybody pointed it out yet. Another great strip! :smallbiggrin:

[martianmister]

Am I the only one who thinks Roy's "friends" have weird arms?

[Vinsfeld]

"Methinks," a slightly archaic phrasing, is not the same as "me thinks," a way of sounding cartoonishly stupid.

(And Thog would have said, "thog thinks.")



Thanks, Kish. Now I know.

(and knowing is half the battle) :wink:

[137beth]

Am I the only one who thinks Roy's "friends" have weird arms?

Yea, they're a bit fuzzy. Anyways, it has been awhile since we've heard about fighter college.

[Tobimaro]

In On The Origin of PCs Roy has a run in with some guys from the ΒΑΒ fraternity. That's probably them again.


Well, I wonder if there was a THAC0 fraternity at Roy's school? :smallbiggrin:

Anyways, great comic, Giant! And that's the truth!

[sims796]

The urine in balloons thing has to take the prize as the "weird forum theory of the week". :smallsigh:

1. We have a can of red paint open.
2. The red paint is not being used visibly for anything else.
3. There are two empty yellow balloons and two filled orange balloons sitting right next to the paint can.
4. Do you really expect an artist to fill a yellow balloon with red paint in order to get the exact subtle shade of the result rather than just say "red paint + yellow balloon = orange balloon contents" for a one-time, one-frame gag. :smallmad:

Do you honestly think that an artist getting a comic out for their fans is going to sit there for hours with a color card -- "oh, my, this is catastrophic, I didn't quite get the exactly hue and saturation to make these paint balloons 100% accurate yet! I must keep working to get the exact tint perfect even if there's only a 0.0034% difference in the colors!!! The world will end if I don't, ZOMG!!!!"

This is an example of massive overthinking and nitpicking leading to a gross and slightly ridiculous conclusion, and a truly pointless debate. Especially when Rich went to the effort of spelling everything out visually in excruciating detail.

While you're at it, how about nitpicking the fact that all larger shoes are on the farther side, meaning that all these guys secretly have one deformed foot? :smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh:

Dude, I really don't think it's that serious. At all. Honestly.

[Othniel Edden]

Dude, I really don't think it's that serious. At all. Honestly.


Dudes: Wow, that stuff looks like urine!
Bulldog Psion: You guys are nuts, look at all the yellow balloons and paint! You guys need to chillaz on the weird ractions.
sims796: Dude, chillax on the chillax speak.

Othniel: I heard you like chillaxing your calls to chillax so I pointed out the chillax in their chilaxing. I think you guys are all incredibly funny. :smallamused

[Gusion]

Huh. I wonder what spell Durkon is thinking of...

Guesses?

Greater glyph of warding isn't a horrible choice, but 10 minutes casting time and the ability to save reflex for half makes it less than ideal.

Symbol of fear would be amusing... but again they don't have 10 minutes.

Blade Barrier is always fun to separate the group... casting it after only one person walks in the door... wall of stone too.

Banishing Sabine would be more useful if it kept her out for 1d4 days and isn't really a "trap" spell.

I suppose I expect a level 8 spell. So a holy aura could be useful but I'm really hoping for a greater planar ally... 10 minute casting time be damned. I wanna see what 18 HD outsider Thor sends - a Planetar Angel of Thor would be one amazing bad ass.

[rewinn]

It looks like Haley's Bow is missing in panel 6. It doesn't really bother me but it seems like it might be an error...

She has a bow and error? :smalltongue:


Huh. I wonder what spell Durkon is thinking of...

Guesses?


I hope he has the levels for
Animate Object ... animating trap doors could make an ambush very merry!

[Fairy Lisa]

How’s this for a plan: they fight, the Order loses because Tarquin is actually serious this time. They’re not summarily executed for some reason or other, although maybe Belkar dies. At most, one would escape, if any, my bet would be on Durkon. Either way, V wakes up, gets out of the trap, finds out the Order is missing and has to mount a rescue mission now. In the mean time, Xykon and Redcloak show up to make everything worse, Tarquin might survive to see the next gate, but the Lizard-cleric dies in the crossfire. V gives a teary-eyed confession about her fun with the Black Dragon, and the gate blows up/gets destroyed shortly thereafter. Onto the next gate!

Edit: Not really spoilers, just predictions, but thought maybe it would be best to tag it after all. I don’t know, I don’t post in forums too much. :smallcool:

[Bulldog Psion]

Dudes: Wow, that stuff looks like urine!
Bulldog Psion: You guys are nuts, look at all the yellow balloons and paint! You guys need to chillaz on the weird ractions.
sims796: Dude, chillax on the chillax speak.

Othniel: I heard you like chillaxing your calls to chillax so I pointed out the chillax in their chilaxing. I think you guys are all incredibly funny. :smallamused

Hehe ... either way you look at that, it's funny. :smallbiggrin:

[Forikroder]

How’s this for a plan: they fight, the Order loses because Tarquin is actually serious this time. They’re not summarily executed for some reason or other, although maybe Belkar dies. At most, one would escape, if any, my bet would be on Durkon. Either way, V wakes up, gets out of the trap, finds out the Order is missing and has to mount a rescue mission now. In the mean time, Xykon and Redcloak show up to make everything worse, Tarquin might survive to see the next gate, but the Lizard-cleric dies in the crossfire. V gives a teary-eyed confession about her fun with the Black Dragon, and the gate blows up/gets destroyed shortly thereafter. Onto the next gate!

Edit: Not really spoilers, just predictions, but thought maybe it would be best to tag it after all. I don’t know, I don’t post in forums too much. :smallcool:
unlikely if tarquin fights seriously he wont purposely not kill them, and even assuming he does decide to not kill them it would take alot of convincing for Malack to not kill them

although its possible Nale decides not to kill them for one of his dumb reasons and Tarquin forces Malack to follow there "commanders" orders

but all in all very unlikely

also i doubt Durkon is actually casting a spell that triggers like a trap, but a spell that helps them stay hidden for the ambush but thats just might be me cause of how he said it

[coineineagh]

An ambush?? Uh oh.
I think Roy is not aware of what magic item (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html) Penelope gave Tarquin for his birthday last year....

[RMS Oceanic]

An ambush?? Uh oh.
I think Roy is not aware of what magic item (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html) Penelope gave Tarquin for his birthday last year....

True Seeing only pierces magical disguise and concealment. It won't reveal you if you're just hiding behind a normal door or something. Now if Durkon's spell has to do with concealment it will negate that, but otherwise it's not as effective.

[Felixc-91]

Huh. I wonder what spell Durkon is thinking of...

Guesses?

Greater glyph of warding isn't a horrible choice, but 10 minutes casting time and the ability to save reflex for half makes it less than ideal.

Symbol of fear would be amusing... but again they don't have 10 minutes.

Blade Barrier is always fun to separate the group... casting it after only one person walks in the door... wall of stone too.

Banishing Sabine would be more useful if it kept her out for 1d4 days and isn't really a "trap" spell.

I suppose I expect a level 8 spell. So a holy aura could be useful but I'm really hoping for a greater planar ally... 10 minute casting time be damned. I wanna see what 18 HD outsider Thor sends - a Planetar Angel of Thor would be one amazing bad ass.hmm, we don't know he can cast 8th level spells yet, just that he can cast 7th level... i think it might even be likely that the highest level spell Durkon has right now is 7th, given that’s what he was going to use against Sabine here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html). However, there are nice 7th and 6th level spells he could use. Holy Word (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm)would be pretty nasty against the current linear guild, particularly against :sabine: and Qaar. Banishing :sabine: would be funny. Oh, what about casting Blade Barrier behind the Linear Guild as the ambush starts. Sure, it would not stop them from retreating, but it would make them less inclined to run. If Durkon has finally started preparing serious combat magic, summon monster 7 could work well. That area doesn’t look big enough for a celestial elephant or huge elemental, but that still leaves him the option of an Avoral (nvm, those are a type of bird) or an invisible stalker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/invisibleStalker.htm). hmm, invisible air elemental; yeah that would be a great way to sow confusion in an ambush.
Holy word seems most likely, since we know he has prepared it before. I really wish he would use a summoning spell or 2...Blade barrier also sounds like a sound bet, given that it would actually help with the ambush aspect of the upcoming fight.

[Dudu]

It's a pity, because he'd have made a fantastic Warblade - and likely stomped the lot of them to boot!
I see I'm not the only one who finds in Roy a fantastic Warblade.

He certainly isn't a gloryhound, but he's a leader tactician.
A warblade character with focus in White Raven discipline is a good Roy roleplay.

[Omergideon]

Ah my post yesterday got eaten by the system as it went into the data backup as I tried to post it. This annoyeth me. However the strip itself I enjoyed. Not a laugh out loud funny, awesome or otherwise spectacular strip, but enjoyable enough and certainly quite pleasant. So yeah, good strip. But of course I would like to be more specific.

The Good:
1) There was actually a fair amount of exposition dumped on us in this strip. We addressed the nature and state of the dungeon, why it is as it is now, some history, planning and more. We also teased some more of V's dissappearance. However it was not done as an infordump. Instead we recieved the information as natural extensions of the characters and through amusing dialogue. This can be a better way to do this than some and so the methos is well appreciated.
2) And lets talk about the jokes. We had a good steady stream of character based (rather than situational or event driven) humour. A pretty good range actually. Most every joke was based in the humour of these people and how the act. Of course the stand out must be the cutaway panel joke (as in there isn't one). This sort of moment messes with expectations and it certainly freshens up the joke of V in his predicament. Good humour here.
3) Another plus is that every member of the order present contributes to the humour. Even V by his absence does too. Durkon may be the least "funny" but we see him doing stuff and being part of the action. Haley, Elan, Belkar and Roy all matter to the strip, which is something I like in an ensemble piece like OoTS.
4) Finally we get some nice characterisation with Elan and Roy. Elan seems to be falling more into his "conventions of storytelling" mindset since meeting his dad, which is likely a sign of how much the event affected him. Despite everything he is unconciously aping his father more. And Roy is certainly growing as a leader. He has always been more than the "I hit is with my sword" type, but events with Tarquin are forcing him again to be more strategic and tactical as brute force won't do. In fact it seems to me that they plan to use the environment to win, which is something I want to see happen. Roy is being efficient and effective and leading, not only because it is his job but because it makes sense to follow him. A good issue to raise and I think a big part of the themes for their respecitve characters in this arc.

The Bad:
1) This is my only real complaint, but nothing really stands out in this strip. It feels like mostly set up and preparation. Well done to be sure, but a transitional strip without anything to make you go "wow". Of course in collection this is less an issue, but as each strip is released days apart they need to stand alone somewhat. And this one has nothing special in it. This detracts only slightly, but it does detract a bit.

So a clear *** strip. Typical OoTS goodness here, with few issues and no major problems. I liked it. Of course personally the lack of Tarquin is something I can only approve of (:smallwink:) but it is good to see a competent order. Some of us have been hoping for them to get a good clear win recently and this may well provide it for us.


And to finish there is one element I want to comment on. Elan made a comment in the strip of "Effectiveness is no fun at all". Whilst I would personally disagree (as in character as it is for Elan to believe so) I do think ti bears a second look. Now it could be interpreted as a dig against some of us readers who want a more competent order rather than to be amused by their sillliness/mistakes etc. I don't think so but it is possible. However I would think it is in some ways applicable to the 2 main ways of playing an RPG. We know OoTS is not a game, but in a game like world we often see tension between roleplaying (i.e. being characterful and dramatic) and being effective (i.e. playing to win). Not always but sometimes. Elan's line raised the issue for me that for the dramatic storyteller pure effectiveness can be dull to play. Not sure about all the areas this might get me thinking of, but I felt it bore mentioning.

[kickassfrog]

Now I want to know what Durkon's spell is going to be. I wonder what kind of books one reads in fighter college.

"How to hit things with other things"

Also, will Elan's bard magic help with illusions for the ambush.

Tarquin is smarter than Roy though, in all probability, so will he point out that they've probably set up an ambush, or just stay quiet and let Nale and his friends take the brunt of the damage.

I am curious as to what spell Durkon has at the ready.

[t209]

I hope V didn't ruin OOTS Plan of sneak attack, either by "hey guys" routine or getting a hostage crisis.
P.S- We still have Niu on the run (It is also the day I had a break down from fall of resistance).

[Kish]

hmm, we don't know he can cast 8th level spells yet, just that he can cast 7th level...
And that Vaarsuvius can cast 8th-level spells.

[stsasser]

We know OoTS is not a game,

Citation, please?



but in a game like world we often see tension between roleplaying (i.e. being characterful and dramatic) and being effective (i.e. playing to win). Not always but sometimes. Elan's line raised the issue for me that for the dramatic storyteller pure effectiveness can be dull to play. Not sure about all the areas this might get me thinking of, but I felt it bore mentioning.

Just as we saw earlier that there is a downside to improvement, now we are shown the downside of effectiveness. Is 'efficiency' next?

[Kish]

Citation, please?
Huh? Do I need to "cite" if I say, "We know that a donut is not a piano"?

...There are people who consider "OotS is a webcomic" a controversial assertion?

[stsasser]

Huh? Do I need to "cite" if I say, "We know that a donut is not a piano"?

...There are people who consider "OotS is a webcomic" a controversial assertion?

Not at all. Maybe 'not even the depiction of a game?' is a better question. The notion that there are at least nominally game players creating these characters, including during the 'Fan Mail' episodes and other 4th wall breaches, has always interested me as a reader of this webcomic.

I was actually asking, did The Giant ever explicitly state that this wasn't the case.

...and I miss Fan Mail.

[RMS Oceanic]

Not at all. Maybe 'not even the depiction of a game?' is a better question. The notion that there are at least nominally game players creating these characters, including during the 'Fan Mail' episodes and other 4th wall breaches, has always interested me as a reader of this webcomic.

I was actually asking, did The Giant ever explicitly state that this wasn't the case.

...and I miss Fan Mail.

The Giant has said that the characters are themselves, that this is a universe where the physical laws are based on D&D, not the manifestation of a D&D game. I can't find the post directly, but there is a threat that tabulates the Giant's comments, so you could find it there.

[stsasser]

The Giant has said that the characters are themselves, that this is a universe where the physical laws are based on D&D, not the manifestation of a D&D game. I can't find the post directly, but there is a threat that tabulates the Giant's comments, so you could find it there.

Good enough for me. Thanks!

[Omergideon]

Citation, please?

Pretty sure it is in the FAQ where it says that they are not players playing in a game, just people who live in a DnD world.

Edit: Ninja'd

And I wasn't so much talking about the downsides to effectiveness as how many people percieve that "roleplaying" is difficult with effective characters (broken system etc). A percieved tension. not a real one. Something I thought interesting as many of the more effective characters (statwise etc) In games I play do try to sequence break etc. Whilst characterful players often have less effective characters.

Or it is Elan being Elan, and mentioning how the sensible thing is not always the most dramatic.

Either/or really.

[Ron Miel]

The Giant has said that the characters are themselves, that this is a universe where the physical laws are based on D&D, not the manifestation of a D&D game. I can't find the post directly, but there is a threat that tabulates the Giant's comments, so you could find it there.

See panel 6 for one example
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html

[Chantelune]

And that Vaarsuvius can cast 8th-level spells.

Durkon can still be a lvl behind V and still can't casts 8-th lvl spells ^^

Nice strip. Things moves forward even as the order stops for a while :smallbiggrin:

[Felixc-91]

And that Vaarsuvius can cast 8th-level spells.that is true, however the class and level geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230935) thread has run the numbers and concluded that while V does have access to level 8 spells, Durkon might have access. He could be anywhere from level 13 to 15. If he's lvl 15 he'd have access. We also have reason to believe that V has more XP under his/her belt than Durkon given the Soul Splice/attacking Zykon plot arc (part of which V did do at his/her own ECL after losing the splice).
Still, the point of that post was to theorize about what spell Durkon was talking about. Do you have any ideas?
Edit: partially ninja'd

[Kish]

that is true, however the class and level geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230935) thread has run the numbers

I wish people would quit treating that thread as authoritative in a way it isn't.

The Class and Level Geekery thread's curators have observed, as any reader of the comic might, that Vaarsuvius is established as having cast an eighth-level spell and Durkon is not. This is not evidence that Durkon is lower-level than Vaarsuvius, only that Vaarsuvius' theoretical level has a currently-slightly-higher floor.


We also have reason to believe that V has more XP under his/her belt than Durkon given the Soul Splice/attacking Zykon plot arc (part of which V did do at his/her own ECL after losing the splice).

Given that the IFCC explicitly said that Vaarsuvius would not gain any XP while spliced, this only works if you presume that Vaarsuvius got XP for annoying Xykon and getting teleported away by the creature in the darkness. And that Vaarsuvius did not spend any of his/her personal experience on the spells s/he cast during the Soul Splice. And that Durkon did nothing to gain XP while Vaarsuvius was attacking Xykon. More than that, though...I just don't think "Rich is keeping track of the separate levels of the Order and has Vaarsuvius as higher level than Durkon" is a good way to bet. Unless, of course, he thinks of a joke to make about Vaarsuvius being higher level than Durkon, like the early joke about Belkar being very slightly behind the rest of the party in XP.


Still, the point of that post was to theorize about what spell Durkon was talking about. Do you have any ideas?
No. It could be any cleric spell in the Player's Handbook; it is unlikely, I think, to be a spell that isn't in the Player's Handbook.

[Gusion]

The Class and Level Geekery thread's curators have observed, as any reader of the comic might, that Vaarsuvius is established as having cast an eighth-level spell and Durkon is not. This is not evidence that Durkon is lower-level than Vaarsuvius, only that Vaarsuvius' theoretical level has a currently-slightly-higher floor.

Which was exactly my point - I'm hoping for an 8th level spell from Durkon based on the foreshadowing and to show he's advancing.

Maybe summoning a purple worm. They are underground, after all. And let's face it, watching Nale get swallowed whole would be pretty hilarious.

So I guess that's my vote since he doesn't have 10 minutes to summon one of Thor's angels.

[Forikroder]

No. It could be any cleric spell in the Player's Handbook; it is unlikely, I think, to be a spell that isn't in the Player's Handbook.

as much as i fear i am opening myself up to flak from the forum viewers, im inclined to think it is a spell that isnt in the players handbook or something non-standard perhaps some special spell he got from that book he borrowed from Malack

from what ive seen Clerics dont have spells that would help them pull of an ambush, they have spells to increase the effectiveness of an ambush but i think that makes Durkons comment as pointless as Haleys comment it seemed to me that Durkon was telling Roy he had a spell to help them actually preform the ambush (as in get in a position to shout surprise) not help after the ambush has sprung (though he obviously has spells for that)

i suppose there are spells like stone shape or something to create places for them to hide but id be willing to bet Durkon has some special spell prepared perhaps it is one of Malacks spell and Durkon using it will create a scenario where Malack leaves the party to engage his EPIC CLERIC DUEL with Durkon and further create opportunity for the linear guild to be seperated person by person to have a duel with there opposite

[The Second]

What I would do: Inscribe a Glyph of Warding set to Bestow Curse. Simple and effective.

[Forikroder]

What I would do: Inscribe a Glyph of Warding set to Bestow Curse. Simple and effective.

throwing a few magical traps could be extremely effective since considering the completel lack of effective traps without there magical disguises both partys are probably have there guard down

[Snails]

throwing a few magical traps could be extremely effective since considering the completel lack of effective traps without there magical disguises both partys are probably have there guard down

Good point. It is unclear what class the winged dweeb is, but even if he is a Rogue, it is unlikely he has the best Spot or Search skills.

[ti'esar]

While it's most likely not the spell he's thinking of, this discussion makes me wonder just when Durkon is going to really use his Mass Death Ward. It seems unlikely that it was simply a hundred-strip setup for a punchline - Anton Chekhov would be rolling in his grave.

[Forikroder]

While it's most likely not the spell he's thinking of, this discussion makes me wonder just when Durkon is going to really use his Mass Death Ward. It seems unlikely that it was simply a hundred-strip setup for a punchline - Anton Chekhov would be rolling in his grave.

Xykon sure loves his energy drains, and Team Evil might have carried on with creating wights and other such things

im pretty sure his mass death ward will have story significance, even in the cming fight there still against a Succubus and a sorcerer who likes his wands of ennervation or whatever the negative level wand is

[Omergideon]

I wish people would quit treating that thread as authoritative in a way it isn't.

I so heartily agree. It is merely speculative, not definitive. And even in thread they are happy to alter level specualtions etc if needed based on new evidence. It is just some guys having fun. Not a rulebook of the OoTS

[eulmanis12]

Now I want to know what Durkon's spell is going to be. I wonder what kind of books one reads in fighter college.

ah fighter college, the good old days. (drifts into nostalgia)

Some of our reading assignments were
Sun Tzu's Art of War
Von Clausowits's Principals of War
Swords
The international encyclopedia of weapons
Combat on land
Combat at sea
Air Combat
A guide to the use of the Saber by George Patton
the complete Captain America Collection
Explosions, A visual Dictionary
Beating Stuff, Volume one, Clubs
Beating Stuff, Volume two, Hammers
The Professional's Guide to the Sharp and Pointy
Famous Last Words Collection
Spear vs Halberd
Elves, Nature's Punching Bag
Squishing Wizards, A how to Guide
The Do's and Don'ts of Bar Fights
Ax handle or Baseball Bat, which makes a better club?
How Many hits does it take to get to the center of A wizard 1


You see, there is a lot of required reading in Fighter college

[Bulldog Psion]

ah fighter college, the good old days. (drifts into nostalgia)

Some of our reading assignments were
...
Elves, Nature's Punching Bag
...
You see, there is a lot of required reading in Fighter college


Thank you for this chuckle to start the day off with. :smallbiggrin:

[t209]

Sun Tzu's Art of War
Von Clausowits's Principals of War


I thought those are Warlord's stuff (Fighters are kinda like Full Frontal Assault).
One question on Art of war:
If Azurite Resistance discovered the Polymorphed spy earlier, which category would he fall to? (Just remember about using spies in battle).

[Kish]

I thought those are Warlord's stuff (Fighters are kinda like Full Frontal Assault).

I can promise you that no part of Roy's curriculum was determined by, "One day, a new edition will come out and add a class called Warlord, of which we will take pains-in-advance to avoid impinging on the niche."


One question on Art of war:
If Azurite Resistance discovered the Polymorphed spy earlier, which category would he fall to? (Just remember about using spies in battle).
If I could make head or tail of the question, I'd still wonder what it's doing in the strip #855 discussion thread.

[t209]

If I could make head or tail of the question, I'd still wonder what it's doing in the strip #855 discussion thread.
In Sun Tzu's Art of War, there is a section about spies and the use of it. There are 5 spies class: Local Spies (A defector of the land you wanted to invade), Inward Spies (bribed officers), Converted Spies (Spy Traitors), Doomed Spies(False Info) and Surviving Spies (Who spy in enemy camp).
On second thought, Nevermind since I thought Doomed Spies is the spy who was captured and got his/her "information extracted".

[Kish]

You do not seem to have read most of the words in my post.

[Ghosty]

throwing a few magical traps could be extremely effective since considering the completel lack of effective traps without there magical disguises both partys are probably have there guard down

How about Symbol of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm)? Would show parity with V's demonstrated spell levels, it's a very plausible spell to have been taught by a High Priest of Death, and it's an alternate use for the diamond dust that Durkon mentions having here in Panel #1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html). It takes 10 minutes to cast, true, but that can be handwaved away, right? And unlike the traps that Haley was easily seeing, the Symbol requires a DC 33 to even detect, much less deactivate.

Also, while Tarquin's Ring of True Seeing is going to easily notice any visual illusion the Order might cobble together, couldn't Elan creatively use auditory illusions to mislead the LG? A bonus would be that someone used to relying on the Ring to ferret out all illusions might not be as suspicious of auditory or olfactory illusions as they would be if they didn't have the Ring as a crutch. (Tarquin's so damned genre savvy though that he probably wouldn't be so overconfident.)

Relating to that theme of overconfidence through easy success, set the Symbol in between a few of the very easily detectable traps; lull the LG into thinking that they're noticing all of the traps and that they're easy to see.

If the Giant wants to snuff Kilkil (or another minor antagonist like Z, if he blows his SR check) in an easy way, and not spend time trying to develop his class abilities, etc, this is probably a good way to do it.

[Math_Mage]

I wish people would quit treating that thread as authoritative in a way it isn't.

The Class and Level Geekery thread's curators have observed, as any reader of the comic might, that Vaarsuvius is established as having cast an eighth-level spell and Durkon is not. This is not evidence that Durkon is lower-level than Vaarsuvius, only that Vaarsuvius' theoretical level has a currently-slightly-higher floor.

Durkon also has a level ceiling because he lost Holy Word to Enervation. He could still be 15th, though.

Myself, I'd rather people both quit treating C&LG as authoritative in a way it isn't, and start treating it as authoritative in the way it is.

[Smolder]

Durkon also has a level ceiling because he lost Holy Word to Enervation. He could still be 15th, though.

Myself, I'd rather people both quit treating C&LG as authoritative in a way it isn't, and start treating it as authoritative in the way it is.

One could come up with ways to explain why a character might have a spell or even spell level that they've never displayed in the comic, but that's a mighty big assumption. Especially considering the D&D context.

Most players I've played with are the trigger happy types who will open up with their most powerful spell. Why waste hit points wrestling your opponent to the ground when a single Finger of Death will do the job much quicker and easier? (Xykon demonstrates this philosophy in SoD, and V has only recently learned the error of the most-powerful-spell-first strategy) Sure, the spell slots limit this a little, but players just take frequent rests. Without a ticking clock or imminent threat, they can make camp every five minutes if they like.

Of course, if anyone is wise enough to hold back their best spells, it would be Durkon. Still, I think the attitude that if-we-haven't-seen-it-in-print-it-doesn't-exist is a fairly workable assumption.

[rewinn]

....the attitude that if-we-haven't-seen-it-in-print-it-doesn't-exist is a fairly workable assumption.
Well, we know Durkon has Stone Shape. That seems pretty helpful for setting up an ambush. For example, he might dig a pit covered with a thin layer of stone that is easily shattered.

It all depends on how fine a control he may have on it. And ... he's a dwarf? .... Is he likely to be good at shaping stone? :smallamused:

This is much more dignified than my alternative suggestion: The Dwarf Dictum Bomb. Roy throws Durkon into the middle of the enemy; Dictum has a chance at taking out about half of them and Durkon's armor enables him to survive the counterattack until Roy crunches through. This is an unlikely tactic, but I know parties that would try it.

[Forikroder]

Well, we know Durkon has Stone Shape. That seems pretty helpful for setting up an ambush. For example, he might dig a pit covered with a thin layer of stone that is easily shattered.

It all depends on how fine a control he may have on it. And ... he's a dwarf? .... Is he likely to be good at shaping stone? :smallamused:

This is much more dignified than my alternative suggestion: The Dwarf Dictum Bomb. Roy throws Durkon into the middle of the enemy; Dictum has a chance at taking out about half of them and Durkon's armor enables him to survive the counterattack until Roy crunches through. This is an unlikely tactic, but I know parties that would try it.

no reason not to ombine both strategys, have them stoneshape Durkon a little cubbyhole on the ceiling that he can easily smash his way out of to fall onto the LG

[Kish]

This is much more dignified than my alternative suggestion: The Dwarf Dictum Bomb. Roy throws Durkon into the middle of the enemy; Dictum has a chance at taking out about half of them
...Which half?
Nale: Lawful Evil. Immune.
Tarquin: Lawful Evil. Immune.
Malack: Probably Lawful Evil. Probably immune.
Kilkil: Probably Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral. Probably immune.
Zz'dtri: Unknown. No evidence of chaoticness, albeit evidence of lawfulness is limited to the "Never stopped" answer to whether he works for Nale. As the mirror of the True Neutral Vaarsuvius, he's most likely Neutral Evil, in which case Dictum would actually deafen and possibly slow him.
Sabine: Is a succubus who works for the IFCC. Assuming for the sake of argument that she's Chaotic Evil as per standard succubus alignment, with no changes for her being an IFCC succubus who was sent as consort to a Lawful Evil villain, she would have to make a Will save or be banished for 24 hours.

The effectiveness of Dictum, should it hit all the members of the Linear Guild and none of the members of the Order, would be largely limited to "deafen and maybe slow Zz'dtri, probably banish Sabine." If there wasn't at least 40 feet between Durkon and the Order, it would be bad for everyone but Roy; if there was, it would be bad for Durkon, who would be surrounded by his enemies with his closest ally 40 feet away.

Why we he use Dictum, a spell much worse for his own group than for his enemies, instead of Holy Word, which would deafen/slow all the members of the Linear Guild (unless some of them are higher level than Durkon), banish Sabine, and only affect two members of the Order? Why would he ever have prepared Dictum?

[Forikroder]

...Which half?
Nale: Lawful Evil. Immune.
Tarquin: Lawful Evil. Immune.
Malack: Probably Lawful Evil. Probably immune.
Kilkil: Probably Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral. Probably immune.
Zz'dtri: Unknown. No evidence of chaoticness, albeit evidence of lawfulness is limited to the "Never stopped" answer to whether he works for Nale. As the mirror of the True Neutral Vaarsuvius, he's most likely Neutral Evil, in which case Dictum would actually deafen and possibly slow him.
Sabine: Is a succubus who works for the IFCC. Assuming for the sake of argument that she's Chaotic Evil as per standard succubus alignment, with no changes for her being an IFCC succubus who was sent as consort to a Lawful Evil villain, she would have to make a Will save or be banished for 24 hours.

The effectiveness of Dictum, should it hit all the members of the Linear Guild and none of the members of the Order, would be largely limited to "deafen and maybe slow Zz'dtri, probably banish Sabine." If there wasn't at least 40 feet between Durkon and the Order, it would be bad for everyone but Roy; if there was, it would be bad for Durkon, who would be surrounded by his enemies with his closest ally 40 feet away.

Why we he use Dictum, a spell much worse for his own group than for his enemies, instead of Holy Word, which would deafen/slow all the members of the Linear Guild (unless some of them are higher level than Durkon), banish Sabine, and only affect two members of the Order? Why would he ever have prepared Dictum?

he might have dictum prepared but hed probably drop it quickly for a healing spell at some point

[Kish]

he might have dictum prepared but hed probably drop it quickly for a healing spell at some point
Given that Dictum would leave everyone in the Order deaf except for Durkon himself and Roy, and the only way Holy Word would not be a better choice would be if he found himself fighting large numbers of non-Lawful but Good enemies, why would he have prepared it? That was a question.

[Forikroder]

Given that Dictum would leave everyone in the Order deaf except for Durkon himself and Roy, and the only way Holy Word would not be a better choice would be if he found himself fighting large numbers of non-Lawful but Good enemies, why would he have prepared it? That was a question.

is dictum a high level spell? if so ignore what i said

[jaybird]

is dictum a high level spell? if so ignore what i said

Dictum is the same level as Holy Word, 7th if I recall...

[Gauscrypts]

Trap-laying requires a little more Intelligence than I'd expect from fighters. That must be a highly-accredited Fighter College.

[talkamancer]

Trap-laying requires a little more Intelligence than I'd expect from fighters. That must be a highly-accredited Fighter College.

Being an intelligent fighter is sort of Roy's thing.

[Kish]

is dictum a high level spell? if so ignore what i said
Four nearly identical seventh-level cleric spells. Holy Word is the good version (affects everyone within 40 feet who is not good), Dictum the lawful version, Blasphemy the evil version (a spell Redcloak might well use in battle against the Order one day), and I presume you can guess what Word of Chaos is.

Being a Lawful Good cleric, Durkon has the ability to prepare either Dictum or Holy Word, and neither would affect him, himself, but in the company he keeps one is obviously better than the other, and "coincidentally" that's also the one he's tried to use a couple times already.

[Omergideon]

Of course Holy Word would disable Belkar as well, rendering him useless. Sadly he is good for a fight, so Durkon might not want to.


Even if it is Belkar.

[Bulldog Psion]

Looking at the Holy Word description, it looks like it would be useless against the current "Linear Guild". Though they're all evil, probably, the only ones it would affect would be Nale, Z, and Sabine (who would be deafened -- big whoop) and maybe the kobold, depending on whether he's a mook or not.

Tarquin and Malack wouldn't be affected, most likely, since I think they're slightly higher level than the OotS.

So, using Durkon as a Holy Word Bomb would deafen three opponents, leave two totally unaffected, and have an unknown effect on the last. That's a pretty feeble effect to be gotten at the cost of placing the OotS' only healer in the thick of a powerful enemy team.

It looks great for, say, mowing down a horde of Xykon's undead minions. For the Linear Guild? Not so much, IMO.

[Ghosty]

Looking at the Holy Word description, it looks like it would be useless against the current "Linear Guild". Though they're all evil, probably, the only ones it would affect would be Nale, Z, and Sabine (who would be deafened -- big whoop) and maybe the kobold, depending on whether he's a mook or not.

Tarquin and Malack wouldn't be affected, most likely, since I think they're slightly higher level than the OotS.

So, using Durkon as a Holy Word Bomb would deafen three opponents, leave two totally unaffected, and have an unknown effect on the last. That's a pretty feeble effect to be gotten at the cost of placing the OotS' only healer in the thick of a powerful enemy team.

It looks great for, say, mowing down a horde of Xykon's undead minions. For the Linear Guild? Not so much, IMO.

It also Banishes extraplanar creatures for 24 hours, with a Will save at -4. So Sabine's probably out of the fight. Other than that, I agree with your analysis. I also don't think it would affect Z, as Z's levels are identical to V's, V can cast 8th level spells, and we think that Durkon can't.

Z also has pretty high Spell Resistance, right? So even if Durkon's of equal level to Z, isn't there a pretty good chance that Z's going to shrug off the Holy Word? I still like my Symbol idea from earlier, mainly because it makes use of Durkon telling us he had one more dose of 5000 GP diamond dust. I guess you can make the Symbol a Weakness or Stunning one if we think that Durkon can't cast 8th level spells yet.

Question for the multitude: if you were running the Order, how would you set up the fight against the LG? Should that be a separate thread? (Does the Order even know that it's the LG they're fighting? All they've seen so far is a couple of acid spheres and Not-Thog.)

[Forikroder]

It also Banishes extraplanar creatures for 24 hours, with a Will save at -4. So Sabine's probably out of the fight. Other than that, I agree with your analysis. I also don't think it would affect Z, as Z's levels are identical to V's, V can cast 8th level spells, and we think that Durkon can't.

Z also has pretty high Spell Resistance, right? So even if Durkon's of equal level to Z, isn't there a pretty good chance that Z's going to shrug off the Holy Word? I still like my Symbol idea from earlier, mainly because it makes use of Durkon telling us he had one more dose of 5000 GP diamond dust. I guess you can make the Symbol a Weakness or Stunning one if we think that Durkon can't cast 8th level spells yet.

Question for the multitude: if you were running the Order, how would you set up the fight against the LG? Should that be a separate thread? (Does the Order even know that it's the LG they're fighting? All they've seen so far is a couple of acid spheres and Not-Thog.)

they got close enough to at least reconize sabine so they know for a fact its the linear guild

pretty sure Roys even said its the linear guild

[Peelee]

they got close enough to at least reconize sabine so they know for a fact its the linear guild

pretty sure Roys even said its the linear guild

Small point of fact, but Roy saw everyone, just now very well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html).

[Ghosty]

they got close enough to at least reconize sabine so they know for a fact its the linear guild

pretty sure Roys even said its the linear guild

It's even worse: Elan recognized them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0855.html). "...is this where we make our stand against the sinister Linear Guild?" Bad day, when Elan is picking up on things before I do. Sigh. And they know that Z's their wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html), (panel 2) though I think they're still unclear about not-Thog and and the LG's divine caster.

So, we all know the Order sucks at optimization and power-gaming in general. (I do too, FWIW.) Presumably though, the rest of you don't, so I'm curious about how a competent player running the Order would set up this fight, within the limits of what we can infer from threads like Class & Level geekery.

[Forikroder]

It's even worse: Elan recognized them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0855.html). "...is this where we make our stand against the sinister Linear Guild?" Bad day, when Elan is picking up on things before I do. Sigh. And they know that Z's their wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html), (panel 2) though I think they're still unclear about not-Thog and and the LG's divine caster.

So, we all know the Order sucks at optimization and power-gaming in general. (I do too, FWIW.) Presumably though, the rest of you don't, so I'm curious about how a competent player running the Order would set up this fight, within the limits of what we can infer from threads like Class & Level geekery.

theres no way to know the best way to do it because we dont know there area there in or what spells they ahve access too

its possible theyll disable some of the pit traps to hide in, they could use magical concealment, they could use magic to make non-magical concealment

best way would probably to set up Belkar and Roy in a position where they can flank, and have the rest pop out in front, maybe some blade barrier to stop them from retreating and give Roy and Belkar a good chance to start meleeing the casters

[Bulldog Psion]

So, we all know the Order sucks at optimization and power-gaming in general. (I do too, FWIW.) Presumably though, the rest of you don't, so I'm curious about how a competent player running the Order would set up this fight, within the limits of what we can infer from threads like Class & Level geekery.

Well, considering the entire team's helplessness against Tarquin when he was just playing, and the fact that V is out of commission, I'd say that their chances in a straight up fight are about nil. So, they're cornered in a bare passageway, without their strongest combatant, against a team partly made up of higher level characters .... hm.

I'm randomly thinking here that maybe using Holy Word wouldn't be bad, after all, because it might well get rid of Sabine. Then, focus fire on Nale because he's the biggest jerk, and kill him. After that, surrender cunningly to Tarquin, because he won't kill Elan and probably Haley out of hand. Throw Belkar to the wolves if necessary.

Help Tarquin find the gate. Then, wait for Xykon to show up and run like hell while X is busy killing T, blowing up the gate on the way out.

Then go quest for about 5 years to get better levels, pick up some prestige classes that might actually let them do something constructive (yes, I'm looking at you, Roy), and go nail Xykon at Kraagor's Gate.

You might ask why X won't have the gate by then? Well, this is where Elan comes into the plan. Using his genre bending powers, he can ensure that the heroes and Xykon arrive at the last gate at the same time, thus allowing maximum dramatic fulfillment.

Well, actually, that last bit is just me being a wiseguy. But the first part seems like the tactically best idea to me -- get rid of Nale and Sabine, who are the ones who want the OotS actually dead, surrender to Tarquin, find the gate with him, wait for X, let T and Malack go down fighting X while the OotS blows up the gate under cover of the struggle, and then flee to fight again another day.

[saltysugar96]

Nale, Z, and Sabine (who would be deafened -- big whoop)

I don't disagree with you, per se, but I think a deafened Nale could become a serious problem. His role as leader is basically in name only. Were he made (even more) useless to Tarquin/Malack, their alliance (which is tenuous at it's best) could be put in jeopardy. If the LG schisms, it would turn a 6v5 into a 3v3v5, which I believe would be a benefit the Order greatly.

[Peelee]

Well, considering the entire team's helplessness against Tarquin when he was just playing, and the fact that V is out of commission, I'd say that their chances in a straight up fight are about nil. So, they're cornered in a bare passageway, without their strongest combatant, against a team partly made up of higher level characters .... hm.

I'm randomly thinking here that maybe using Holy Word wouldn't be bad, after all, because it might well get rid of Sabine. Then, focus fire on Nale because he's the biggest jerk, and kill him. After that, surrender cunningly to Tarquin, because he won't kill Elan and probably Haley out of hand. Throw Belkar to the wolves if necessary.

That seems like it would work out quite well, actually. I also think being deafened would be a bit more of a detriment than others believe, largely in part due to the great need for communication among the LG at the moment (even discounting Tarquin and Malack, Nale is directing Z how to be most effective, since he has no elven punching bag to throw around). Deafening them would disrupt a good amount of communication, which along with banishing Sabine, would definitely help swing the odds a bit towards the Order. Also, if they come up with this plan in advance, they could block Belkar's ears so he doesn't hear the holy word. Or, by contrast, he could hear it, and it could either be detrimental to him as well, or (at the risk of opening this can of worms) be the start of his death.

[natrl20]

Umm, why would you think Nale is lawful???? Even aside from the fact that he's dating a pure embodiment of chaos... And somehow I think dating a demon would affect a humans alignment rather more than dating a lawful human (even if Nale were, which he isn't!) would affect a demons alignment, since that alignment is essential to her very being. But Tarquinius at least is lawful, and malack too I would think. And yeah half the order is chaotic so dictum no good.

[Peelee]

Umm, why would you think Nale is lawful???? Even aside from the fact that he's dating a pure embodiment of chaos... And somehow I think dating a demon would affect a humans alignment rather more than dating a lawful human (even if Nale were, which he isn't!) would affect a demons alignment, since that alignment is essential to her very being. But Tarquinius at least is lawful, and malack too I would think. And yeah half the order is chaotic so dictum no good.


.....who are you talking to, and what are you talking about?

[FAD!]

That's a pretty feeble effect to be gotten at the cost of placing the OotS' only healer in the thick of a powerful enemy team.

I don't know D&D, but I thought healing in-battle was inefficient...

[Bulldog Psion]

I don't know D&D, but I thought healing in-battle was inefficient...

1. I changed my mind totally, so this is kind of outdated.

2. In battle, out of battle, it's generally a bad idea to get your healer killed first, which is all I was saying.

[Kish]

Umm, why would you think Nale is lawful????

You mean, other than that he said so?

Even aside from the fact that he's dating a pure embodiment of chaos...

What is your understanding of the IFCC?

But Tarquinius

Who?

[LordofNaught]

That seems like it would work out quite well, actually. I also think being deafened would be a bit more of a detriment than others believe, largely in part due to the great need for communication among the LG at the moment (even discounting Tarquin and Malack, Nale is directing Z how to be most effective, since he has no elven punching bag to throw around). Deafening them would disrupt a good amount of communication, which along with banishing Sabine, would definitely help swing the odds a bit towards the Order. Also, if they come up with this plan in advance, they could block Belkar's ears so he doesn't hear the holy word. Or, by contrast, he could hear it, and it could either be detrimental to him as well, or (at the risk of opening this can of worms) be the start of his death.


The only drawback to the deafening, as you probably pointed out, is that Tarquain and Malack have probably been in a situation where Holy Word or some other form of communication disruption was used against them. Thus, they would have some alternate means of communicating. But then again, its only between those two, and we have no idea what their actions will be if the trap goes as planned. We can only wait and see.

[rewinn]

Y'all persuaded me that the dwarf bomb is a bad idea. Back to stone shaping or ... my favorite ... doing something to make those dead traps come "alive".

[Bulldog Psion]

The only drawback to the deafening, as you probably pointed out, is that Tarquain and Malack have probably been in a situation where Holy Word or some other form of communication disruption was used against them. Thus, they would have some alternate means of communicating. But then again, its only between those two, and we have no idea what their actions will be if the trap goes as planned. We can only wait and see.

Well, I figured that it wouldn't affect them at all, because they're higher level than the OotS IMO.

I suggested Holy Word purely as a way to immediately and completely remove Sabine from the fight, preparatory to killing Nale and then surrendering to Tarquin and Malack.

[natrl20]

...Which half?
Nale: Lawful Evil. Immune.
Tarquin: Lawful Evil. Immune.
Malack: Probably Lawful Evil. Probably immune.
Kilkil: Probably Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral. Probably immune.
Zz'dtri: Unknown. No evidence of chaoticness, albeit evidence of lawfulness is limited to the "Never stopped" answer to whether he works for Nale. As the mirror of the True Neutral Vaarsuvius, he's most likely Neutral Evil, in which case Dictum would actually deafen and possibly slow him.
Sabine: Is a succubus who works for the IFCC. Assuming for the sake of argument that she's Chaotic Evil as per standard succubus alignment, with no changes for her being an IFCC succubus who was sent as consort to a Lawful Evil villain, she would have to make a Will save or be banished for 24 hours.

The effectiveness of Dictum, should it hit all the members of the Linear Guild and none of the members of the Order, would be largely limited to "deafen and maybe slow Zz'dtri, probably banish Sabine." If there wasn't at least 40 feet between Durkon and the Order, it would be bad for everyone but Roy; if there was, it would be bad for Durkon, who would be surrounded by his enemies with his closest ally 40 feet away.

Why we he use Dictum, a spell much worse for his own group than for his enemies, instead of Holy Word, which would deafen/slow all the members of the Linear Guild (unless some of them are higher level than Durkon), banish Sabine, and only affect two members of the Order? Why would he ever have prepared Dictum?

I was talking about this. Sorry, my post got delayed do to iPhone 3G spaz. 'Tarquinius' for some reason is in my iPhone dictionary and autofilled. Which is pretty weird.

When did Nale explicitly rep lawful alignment??? He seems super chaotic and I understood that as the basic tension between him an dad, underlying the more superficial 'stylistic' differences.
Yeah Sabine works for the coalition, which puts the law-chaos axis aside for the purposes of promoting evil, but she still a demon and so she's still essentially chaotic. I don't think demons can possibly be other than chaotic, can they? Theyre not 'usually' chaotic evil, it's essential to them, just like air elementals cant choose to be made of stone...

[Peelee]

I was talking about this. Sorry, my post got delayed do to iPhone 3G spaz. 'Tarquinius' for some reason is in my iPhone dictionary and autofilled. Which is pretty weird.

When did Nale explicitly rep lawful alignment??? He seems super chaotic and I understood that as the basic tension between him an dad, underlying the more superficial 'stylistic' differences.
Yeah Sabine works for the coalition, which puts the law-chaos axis aside for the purposes of promoting evil, but she still a demon and so she's still essentially chaotic. I don't think demons can possibly be other than chaotic, can they? Theyre not 'usually' chaotic evil, it's essential to them, just like air elementals cant choose to be made of stone...

....that's a wall of text. How the crap did I miss that?

Anyway, others will surely come in and point to a specific comic, which I'm too lazy to do at the moment, but I know he's supposed to be Elan's opposite, so Elan's CG turns into Nale being LE.

Also, Tarquinius was a Roman king (in fact, after him, the Romans hated kings so much that one of the reasons Julius Caesar was assassinated was that the Senate thought he was going to crown himself "king" instead of "emperor").

[natrl20]

Interesting. I wonder if Tarquinius was an inspiration for Rich, or if it's just a cool sounding name coincidence...

Evil opposites, yeah, but Nale's behavior? Pretty chaotic on my understanding (think cliffport!). What do y'all think? Votes?

[natrl20]

Interesting. I wonder if Tarquinius was an inspiration for Rich, or if it's just a cool sounding name coincidence...

Evil opposites, yeah, but Nale's behavior? Pretty chaotic on my understanding (think cliffport!). What do y'all think? Votes?

[natrl20]

Interesting. I wonder if Tarquinius was an inspiration for Rich, or if it's just a cool sounding name coincidence...

Evil opposites, yeah, but Nale's behavior? Pretty chaotic on my understanding (think cliffport!). What do y'all think? Votes?

[natrl20]

Interesting. I wonder if Tarquinius was an inspiration for Rich, or if it's just a cool sounding name coincidence...
Thanks for the history lesson, iPhone and Peelee :)

Evil opposites, yeah, but Nale's behavior? Pretty chaotic on my understanding (think cliffport!). What do y'all think? Votes?

[Peelee]

Interesting. I wonder if Tarquinius was an inspiration for Rich, or if it's just a cool sounding name coincidence...
Thanks for the history lesson, iPhone and Peelee :)

Evil opposites, yeah, but Nale's behavior? Pretty chaotic on my understanding (think cliffport!). What do y'all think? Votes?

Anytime! It's a rare thing to use the knowledge my fours years of Latin got me

Also, Rich has come out and said Tarquinius was the inspiration for Tarquin (in response to people wondering if the inspiration as instead Grand Moff Tarkin, from Star Wars). Again, too lazy to look it up at the moment, but The Phantasm's index has it.

Lastly, I never thought about it much, but yeah, I do think I agree with you that Nale seems to act more chaotic. Though he is a very big stickler on the evil opposites theme... I think he loathes having to deviate from that model.

[Kish]

Cliffport? Where he carried out a ridiculously Byzantine plan? What's supposed to be obviously chaotic about Cliffport?

(Let me guess: The high loss of innocent life. In other words, you've got part of Evil confused with Chaotic.)

Nale said he was Lawful Evil after he stabbed Elan the first time. Elan is Chaotic Good like his mother; Nale is Lawful Evil like Tarquin.

Demons are always made of solidified chaos and evil. That doesn't mean they can't change alignment, it just means that, say, a succubus paladin (not that WotC ever put such a character in print...) would give a positive reading on all four alignment reading spells (Detect Good, Detect Evil, Detect Law, and Detect Chaos).

[Gift Jeraff]

Rich has indeed said the Roman king was where Tarquin derived his name from.

And Nale's about as Lawful as Roy, IMO. Somewhat Chaotic means to attain a Lawful end (a LE tyranny of his own). Plus he strongly values consistency (evil opposites, needlessly complex plans, disproportionate revenge, etc.). And I don't see what was so Chaotic about the Cliffport plan. It was mostly just Evil.

EDIT: Ninja'd on both Tarquin's name and Cliffport.

[Gusion]

Malack: Probably Lawful Evil. Probably immune.
Kilkil: Probably Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral. Probably immune.

So you think Kilkil is more neutral than Malack?

As you know I think Malack is LN (and provided my reasons supported by specific actions in specific strips), but you've never really explained or supported why you think he is LE - so why do you?

[hamishspence]

Demons are always made of solidified chaos and evil. That doesn't mean they can't change alignment, it just means that, say, a succubus paladin (not that WotC ever put such a character in print...) would give a positive reading on all four alignment reading spells (Detect Good, Detect Evil, Detect Law, and Detect Chaos).

Not in print- no- they did do so online though: The Succubus Paladin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a)

and there's at least one print example of an evil-aligned angel with the good subtype- in Elder Evils.

I think of it as less "made of" and more "contains"- a demon contains chaos energy and evil energy- but it also contains ordinary flesh- and it can survive spells that change those energies- though they are hazardous. Savage Species has a ritual for changing alignment subtypes- though I'm not sure if it can simply remove one, rather than replacing it.

[natrl20]

Cliffport-wise, sure, lots of evilness with the murdering and all, but chaos-wise I had in mind all the ways he deceived and manipulated the law (as in police), like with the occult serial killer ruse, and the not-Nale switcheroo, decapitating the chief for no reason...
Of course, law as in police is not the same as law as in alignment, but they're not totally unrelated either, I think. Compare the way T-diddy appropriates the authority of a legal framework in order to do evil (I am the law!!) with the way Nale undermines the cliffport governments ability to operate, killing cops, unleashing Leaky, sewing panic (i.e. literal chaos ) throughout the whole city, and then taking advantage of the anti magic quirk in their legal system to perpetrate the switcheroo deception (fudge the police, in the words of the immortal green poet; we all agree the thogster is chaotic, right?).
That's what I had in mind, for cliffport.

[natrl20]

And Nale's elaborate planning and vengefulness don't seem lawful to me, just arrogant. And the evil opposites thing seems more like a theme than a 'code of conduct'...
And yeah malack might well be lawful neutral, not evil, as I think hints to Durks when they meet, in discussin Nergalian philosophy.

[Gift Jeraff]

decapitating the chief for no reason...I don't have the book with me right this moment, but I think Rich says Nale killed the Chief to ensure that the police would be as biased towards Not-Nale as possibly and show no mercy, or something to that effect.

[Math_Mage]

Cliffport-wise, sure, lots of evilness with the murdering and all, but chaos-wise I had in mind all the ways he deceived and manipulated the law (as in police), like with the occult serial killer ruse, and the not-Nale switcheroo, decapitating the chief for no reason...
Of course, law as in police is not the same as law as in alignment, but they're not totally unrelated either, I think. Compare the way T-diddy appropriates the authority of a legal framework in order to do evil (I am the law!!) with the way Nale undermines the cliffport governments ability to operate, killing cops, unleashing Leaky, sewing panic (i.e. literal chaos ) throughout the whole city, and then taking advantage of the anti magic quirk in their legal system to perpetrate the switcheroo deception (fudge the police, in the words of the immortal green poet; we all agree the thogster is chaotic, right?).
That's what I had in mind, for cliffport.

There's nothing particularly Chaotic about serial killing. Nor is there anything particularly Chaotic about creating a noisy diversion. Manipulating structures of authority to do the job you want done, on the other hand, is decidedly Lawful. That Nale doesn't care about the collateral damage to Cliffport's government and populace shows that he is Evil, not that he is Chaotic. And killing the chief was a reasoned action with an anticipated consequence--evil always has a reason.

All in all, Cliffport leans Lawful for Nale. Which makes sense, because as has been mentioned before, Nale has explicitly stated he is Lawful Evil.

[natrl20]

Hmm, well I guess I'll have to defer to Nale's expertise concerning his own alignment http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html which he does indeed explicate after shivving the bard. Impressive recall on that one. And maybe it's like racist of me to think a demon can't be lawful? Or that an inter-alignment relationship relationship couldn't work.

So why is it easier for lawful and chaotic characters to work together for good or for evil than for, say good and evil folk to team up for the sake of promoting chaos?

[hamishspence]

Lawful folks of good, evil, and neutral sometimes team up- as per the Regulators in Epic Handbook.

In effect, that's "good and evil folks teaming up to promote Law"

The reverse seems less common though. Maybe because Chaotic Evil tends to be almost as tyrannical as Lawful Evil (only it's a more arbitrary, whimsical form of tyranny) whereas Chaotic Good is very rebellious and anti-tyrant.

Closest thing to it might be "The Rebellion" with a mixture of viciously ruthless members and idealistic ones. Both "terrorists" and "freedom fighters" in the same organisation, so to speak.

[Felixc-91]

Lawful folks of good, evil, and neutral sometimes team up- as per the Regulators in Epic Handbook.

In effect, that's "good and evil folks teaming up to promote Law"

The reverse seems less common though. Maybe because Chaotic Evil tends to be almost as tyrannical as Lawful Evil (only it's a more arbitrary, whimsical form of tyranny) whereas Chaotic Good is very rebellious and anti-tyrant.

Closest thing to it might be "The Rebellion" with a mixture of viciously ruthless members and idealistic ones. Both "terrorists" and "freedom fighters" in the same organisation, so to speak. This seems like a great example of opposing alignments working together to me, even chaotics teaming up. IDK, to my mind you might even be able to get Neutral good people to work with CE in that situation. You don't need to be chaotic to resist an evil regime. I bet plenty of the people from the azure city resistance were neutral or even lawful. There was at least one paladin for sure. Desperate resistance movements will take just about anyone as long as they will help the cause.

[Math_Mage]

Hmm, well I guess I'll have to defer to Nale's expertise concerning his own alignment http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html which he does indeed explicate after shivving the bard. Impressive recall on that one. And maybe it's like racist of me to think a demon can't be lawful? Or that an inter-alignment relationship relationship couldn't work.

So why is it easier for lawful and chaotic characters to work together for good or for evil than for, say good and evil folk to team up for the sake of promoting chaos?

The IFCC is pretty good evidence that an evil inter-alignment relationship can work.

As for the latter part of the post...at least for most of the OotS story, while law and chaos might disagree on means to achieve a desired end, good and evil disagree on the ends. They don't work together because they don't want the same things. Now, there have been instances of pseudo-cooperation in spite of this (Elan and Thog, Belkar and the order, YY #2 and the Linear Guild), but it takes a lot more effort to put aside those differences than differences on the ethical axis, at least when considering OotS.

But then, OotS is fundamentally a story about good vs. evil. A story about law vs. chaos might feature more cooperation across the moral axis.

[ti'esar]

I don't have the book with me right this moment, but I think Rich says Nale killed the Chief to ensure that the police would be as biased towards Not-Nale as possibly and show no mercy, or something to that effect.

I don't own WXP, but I always assumed this was the case.

[Kish]

So you think Kilkil is more neutral than Malack?

Given that Malack is an adventurer actively involved in an evil scheme and in a position to scream "Stop flapping your flat-toothed mouth for one minute!" at the horrifically evil leader of his adventuring party, and Kilkil is a secretary who seems regretful and terrified about having set someone up to be killed on orders from his boss, yes.

I happen to know that the part of that about Malack has been pointed out to you before, and you seem to have ignored it then.


So why is it easier for lawful and chaotic characters to work together for good or for evil than for, say good and evil folk to team up for the sake of promoting chaos?
The alignment axes are by no means equal. D&D is fundamentally a good vs. evil game, with, "Is this hero an ordered, chaotic, or neutral flavor of good?" and, "Is this villain an ordered, chaotic, or neutral flavor of evil?" as secondary personality traits that don't affect the fundamental question of whether the character is a hero or a villain.

[Forikroder]

Given that Malack is an adventurer actively involved in an evil scheme and in a position to scream "Stop flapping your flat-toothed mouth for one minute!" at the horrifically evil leader of his adventuring party, and Kilkil is a secretary who seems regretful and terrified about having set someone up to be killed on orders from his boss, yes.

your mistaking neutral for good, if Malack was neutral he wouldnt really care about how evil Tarquin was because hes neutral, he himself probably wouldnt particiapte much in the exceptionally evil stuff (like burning the slaves) and in general he seems very detached from the day to day runnings of the empire

id say currently, Malack seems very neutral

[zimmerwald1915]

your mistaking neutral for good, if Malack was neutral he wouldnt really care about how evil Tarquin was because hes neutral, he himself probably wouldnt particiapte much in the exceptionally evil stuff (like burning the slaves) and in general he seems very detached from the day to day runnings of the empire

id say currently, Malack seems very neutral
The PHB disagrees with you. "[A Neutral] character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones."

As for being detached from the bureaucracy...Malack's the High Priest, with a whole cadre of acolytes reporting to him. He bears the secular title "Minister". Kilkil reports to him first when he receives a bounty tagged to go to the Empress. He's in up to his neck.

I agree he's probably neutral on one axis or other, but these are not good arguments.

[natrl20]

I like the points about the lawful and chaotic teamups, with mixed good/evil characters, really any time you have a government against rebels or cops and robbers, that can potentially work.
I think there is something more fundamental about good/evil based alliances than chaos/law ones though, not just in D and D but in drama/human pscyh more generally, like more satisfying or something. Seems like there's more dramatic tension and inherent instability in an alliance with good/evil differences in it (belkar), whereas a mix of chaotic and lawful characters in a good or evil alliance just adds spice and humor (haley vs roy and durkon; han solo (CG) teaming up with jedi (LG, very 'code oriented' in a paladinesque way) also springs to mind).
and with Belkar there's even an oscillation between his role in the order seemed doomed in a drama-producing or plot-moving way when he's really being evil (like murdering traveling salesgnomes), vs more lightly comedic when he's at least acting good (even if he tells himself he's just pretending).
Similarly, concerning Redcloak (who is more to the lawful side of evil, right? at least compared to Xykon who is straight chaotic evil, right?); when RC is actually motivated by what seem to me to some strong goodish tendencies (wanting to help to goblins and even hobbos, prevent their suffering and death, etc.) there is genuine tension and potentially explosive instability within team evil (as Tskukiko learned the hard way).

Redcloak does kind of face a paradox in the alignment system though, since he's motivated to promote the welfare and prevent the suffering (classically Good motives) of beings that are evil (*most* goblinoids). right? to me that's what's really interesting about his character. That issue's also a source of humor when Rich pushes up against it with other characters like in the last panel here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html

I mean, Reddie still rates as evil overall, (i guess?) but those are *good* leaning motives aren't they? except, that it's just crazy, because his plan involves giving dominance to the Dark One, an Evil god! what a paradox!

[Forikroder]

The PHB disagrees with you. "[A Neutral] character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones."

As for being detached from the bureaucracy...Malack's the High Priest, with a whole cadre of acolytes reporting to him. He bears the secular title "Minister". Kilkil reports to him first when he receives a bounty tagged to go to the Empress. He's in up to his neck.

I agree he's probably neutral on one axis or other, but these are not good arguments.

first of all id like to reclarify, i didnt mean malack was in any way a less then enthusiastic member of the empire, i meant hes not going out of his way to do things like organize gladitorial games and have prisoners set on fire to shine a welcome home message to his son


also id argue that neutrality favours good or evil depending on the situation, sure in a normal everyday scenario neutral would favour good becuase thats the path of least resistance, noone ever gives you grief for being a good guy, but in Malacks scenario (and likely the scenario of majority on the desert) neutrality would favour evil since its such an area of turmoil

also i dont care who you are or where you live, if your neutral and someone comes up with you with a very reasonable plan that has a high chance of success and relatively low chance of dieing and the reward is living like a god for the rest of your natural life you wouldnt care what you had to do youd take it


(even if he tells himself he's just pretending).

saving Enor and Ganji is the only legit good act he did because he felt bad for someone and saw a way to help them and took it, every other good act hes done has been either out of neccesity or to help himself


Redcloak does kind of face a paradox in the alignment system though, since he's motivated to promote the welfare and prevent the suffering (classically Good motives) of beings that are evil (*most* goblinoids). right? to me that's what's really interesting about his character. That issue's also a source of humor when Rich pushes up against it with other characters like in the last panel here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html

I mean, Reddie still rates as evil overall, (i guess?) but those are *good* leaning motives aren't they? except, that it's just crazy, because his plan involves giving dominance to the Dark One, an Evil god! what a paradox!

in my opinion at least the means are more of what weighs on the alignment of someone then the ends (also the intent and motivation)

for instance, Tarquin claims his end goal will save lives by ending the war in the continent, however since his means are unquestionably evil, and his motivation (living like a god) all and all it balances out to evil

same with redcloak, although he has a good end, and his motivation is good as well, the way hes going about it is extremely wrong

[zimmerwald1915]

...when RC is actually motivated by what seem to me to some strong goodish tendencies (wanting to help to goblins and even hobbos, prevent their suffering and death, etc.) there is genuine tension and potentially explosive instability within team evil (as Tskukiko learned the hard way).
That you feel the need to qualify "good" indicates to me you don't really believe what you're saying. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing good, or even redemptive, in Redcloak. The means he chooses to pursue his goal have been discussed to death. Is helping the Dark One blackmail the other gods moral? Are the sacrifices in goblin lives Redcloak is prepared to make and has made worth the promised utopia? This is part of the problem. The assumption right off the bat - and I think the Giant has led us to this assumption deliberately - is that the cause "increasing the welfare of my people" is a good cause, and that this comes into conflict with his actions. But let's look at how "my people" is conceived.

Please note that I am not trying to pass judgment on goblins, goblinoids, or "monsters" in general. Their character, whatever it is, as well as the characters of members of the "PC races" is beside the point. The point is that "race" is taken for granted in-universe to be a sharp dividing line between peoples, that it is taken to exist from the beginning of time, not to come to be defined by how groups interact and clash with each other over history. Now, Redcloak's not to blame for this. Nor are the mortals. Neither, if we believe the creation stories, is the Dark One. The creator gods originated this sharp dividing line. The problem with Redcloak is that, even when he claims to be fighting to right the injustices the creator gods have built into the world, he has bought into their central tenet: that it is correct for their creation to be at constant war with itself. Redcloak wants to be a revolutionary. He ends up reinforcing the system even as he struggles against its mortal benefactors.

This is evident in what he means by equality. This is an important concept to Redcloak. He's claimed several times to be fighting for equality between goblinoids and the PC races. But what does that mean? Does he want goblinoids and humanoids to live in one anothers' lands without fear of persecution, with equal protection under the law? No. He wants equality of opportunity on the world-political scene, and wants goblins, given their natural advantages, to emerge victorious from the foreseeable and inevitable imperialist clashes.

So what we're left with is a deeply self-deluded man whose main contribution to the world has been, and will continue to be, blood, devestation, death, war, and horror. And later we'll be talking with a man who does gardening.

[ti'esar]

and Kilkil is a secretary who seems regretful and terrified about having set someone up to be killed on orders from his boss, yes.

I can't remember Kilkil ever showing much emotion of any kind - when was this?

Incidentally, looks like we've hit the "new comic readiness period" on this thread.

[Forikroder]

I can't remember Kilkil ever showing much emotion of any kind - when was this?

Incidentally, looks like we've hit the "new comic readiness period" on this thread.

i think he was talking about when kilkil was at enors trial and enor yelled at him and kilkil was scared and he was taking it as kilkil was scared about what he was being forced to do not the half crazed with anger lizardfolk yelling at him

[natrl20]

That you feel the need to qualify "good" indicates to me you don't really believe what you're saying. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing good, or even redemptive, in Redcloak. The means he chooses to pursue his goal have been discussed to death. Is helping the Dark One blackmail the other gods moral? Are the sacrifices in goblin lives Redcloak is prepared to make and has made worth the promised utopia? This is part of the problem. The assumption right off the bat - and I think the Giant has led us to this assumption deliberately - is that the cause "increasing the welfare of my people" is a good cause, and that this comes into conflict with his actions. But let's look at how "my people" is conceived.

Please note that I am not trying to pass judgment on goblins, goblinoids, or "monsters" in general. Their character, whatever it is, as well as the characters of members of the "PC races" is beside the point. The point is that "race" is taken for granted in-universe to be a sharp dividing line between peoples, that it is taken to exist from the beginning of time, not to come to be defined by how groups interact and clash with each other over history. Now, Redcloak's not to blame for this. Nor are the mortals. Neither, if we believe the creation stories, is the Dark One. The creator gods originated this sharp dividing line. The problem with Redcloak is that, even when he claims to be fighting to right the injustices the creator gods have built into the world, he has bought into their central tenet: that it is correct for their creation to be at constant war with itself. Redcloak wants to be a revolutionary. He ends up reinforcing the system even as he struggles against its mortal benefactors.

This is evident in what he means by equality. This is an important concept to Redcloak. He's claimed several times to be fighting for equality between goblinoids and the PC races. But what does that mean? Does he want goblinoids and humanoids to live in one anothers' lands without fear of persecution, with equal protection under the law? No. He wants equality of opportunity on the world-political scene, and wants goblins, given their natural advantages, to emerge victorious from the foreseeable and inevitable imperialist clashes.

So what we're left with is a deeply self-deluded man whose main contribution to the world has been, and will continue to be, blood, devestation, death, war, and horror. And later we'll be talking with a man who does gardening.

But, unless Redcloak is mistaken or for some reason lying (to himself?) about this (and he seems to have had direct experience of the events in question--i unfortunately haven't yet read the bonus materials in the books. i'm saving up. so if there's more explication here i don't know it.) the Sapphire Guard waged a largely pre-emptive campaign of extermination against the Goblin's in order to mantain control of the Snarl. No doubt the Pallys knew that many of their own would be killed, so this counts as willing, knowing sacrifice of humans in the war as well. So how is what Redcloak's done any different, aside from skin color?
But the Paladin's get to be capital 'G' *Good*, while the gobsters are *Evil*.
Or what am I missing? The alliance with Xykon earns RC some evil points, sure; Xykon is evil because he enjoys causing and seeks to cause suffering and death as ends in themselves. Evil is malevolence, the will to harm (right?). Xykon is a necessary evil to RC. Think of Xykon as Redcloak's Fat Man and Little Boy (as in Hiroshima and Nagasaki). Was Truman lawful evil? Lawful Neutral? Lawful Good?

RC doesn't want to hurt anyone, except when motivated by revenge against those that, from his perspective are mass murderers. In his eyes, *rightful* vengeance, not just spite. Like an 'Inglorious Basterds' kind of revenge.
His sparing of the humans instead of tossing them into the snarl illustrates this powerfully. RC is not motivated by malevolence, evil for its own sake. So to me, he's not an evil character, so it seems unfair that he has to be Evil with a captical 'E' on the alignment system. And it seems to me that the reason he gets stuck with the E is because of the association of his race with that E, no more and no less. I kind of feel like Rich is drawing this philosophical tension out on purpose.

[Forikroder]

But, unless Redcloak is mistaken or for some reason lying (to himself?) about this (and he seems to have had direct experience of the events in question--i unfortunately haven't yet read the bonus materials in the books. i'm saving up. so if there's more explication here i don't know it.) the Sapphire Guard waged a largely pre-emptive campaign of extermination against the Goblin's in order to mantain control of the Snarl. No doubt the Pallys knew that many of their own would be killed, so this counts as willing, knowing sacrifice of humans in the war as well. So how is what Redcloak's done any different, aside from skin color?
But the Paladin's get to be capital 'G' *Good*, while the gobsters are *Evil*.
Or what am I missing? The alliance with Xykon earns RC some evil points, sure; Xykon is evil because he enjoys causing and seeks to cause suffering and death as ends in themselves. Evil is malevolence, the will to harm (right?). Xykon is a necessary evil to RC. Think of Xykon as Redcloak's Fat Man and Little Boy (as in Hiroshima and Nagasaki). Was Truman lawful evil? Lawful Neutral? Lawful Good?

RC doesn't want to hurt anyone, except when motivated by revenge against those that, from his perspective are mass murderers. In his eyes, *rightful* vengeance, not just spite. Like an 'Inglorious Basterds' kind of revenge.
His sparing of the humans instead of tossing them into the snarl illustrates this powerfully. RC is not motivated by malevolence, evil for its own sake. So to me, he's not an evil character, so it seems unfair that he has to be Evil with a captical 'E' on the alignment system. And it seems to me that the reason he gets stuck with the E is because of the association of his race with that E, no more and no less. I kind of feel like Rich is drawing this philosophical tension out on purpose.

the main difference is the Humans by and large didnt lose many while redcloak willing has thrown away thousands of his comrades (many to die a preventable death) to achieve his goal

Redcloak prioritized his goal over his comrades unlike the paladins

also your "Redclaok doesnt want to hurt anyone" is completely false, he took alot of pleasure in taking over Azure city and punishing its inhabitants Redcloak has a big ball of hate inside him, we saw it come out when he killed Tsukiko (mainly in his speech not so much in his actions) he does want to hurt people, he wants to hurt alot of people to satiate his thirst for revenge

his not tossing the prisoners insto the snarl symbolizes nothing except his severe lack of understanding of humans, he uses slave labour in his nation throwing the prisoners into the snarl would be like killing a bunch of horses or buring a bunch of grain to him he thought theyd have more worth alive then dead so he kept them alive so they could be worked to death later

[zimmerwald1915]

But, unless Redcloak is mistaken or for some reason lying (to himself?) about this (and he seems to have had direct experience of the events in question--i unfortunately haven't yet read the bonus materials in the books. i'm saving up. so if there's more explication here i don't know it.) the Sapphire Guard waged a largely pre-emptive campaign of extermination against the Goblin's in order to mantain control of the Snarl. No doubt the Pallys knew that many of their own would be killed, so this counts as willing, knowing sacrifice of humans in the war as well. So how is what Redcloak's done any different, aside from skin color?
But the Paladin's get to be capital 'G' *Good*, while the gobsters are *Evil*.
Or what am I missing?
Start with "the point". If you want to refute my argument, don't bring up the Sapphire Guard. I'm not interested in defending them, something you could have deduced by my not bringing them up in my post. This is about Redcloak. My argument is that Redcloak is evil not because of his "race", not because of the means he uses to achieve his ends, but because his ends - world-political equality of opportunity for goblinoids - necessarily imply imperialist bloodletting on a world scale, with world mastery at stake, while at the same time implying no change in the nonsensical and destructive ways people of all "races" live their lives in OOTS-world.


The alliance with Xykon earns RC some evil points, sure; Xykon is evil because he enjoys causing and seeks to cause suffering and death as ends in themselves. Evil is malevolence, the will to harm (right?). Xykon is a necessary evil to RC. Think of Xykon as Redcloak's Fat Man and Little Boy (as in Hiroshima and Nagasaki). Was Truman lawful evil? Lawful Neutral? Lawful Good?
I'd shy away from this kind of paralleling if I were you. Bringing up real world politics is risky business on these boards.


RC doesn't want to hurt anyone, except when motivated by revenge against those that, from his perspective are mass murderers. In his eyes, *rightful* vengeance, not just spite. Like an 'Inglorious Basterds' kind of revenge.
I haven't seen that movie. I do know that the totally fictional war provided as context went along the same lines as the one I described Redcloak's "revolution" leading to: a bloody struggle for world domination between great powers that ended up not really bettering the lives of victors or vanquished in the end. And as Forik pointed out, Redcloak wants to, and hurts, a great many people.


His sparing of the humans instead of tossing them into the snarl illustrates this powerfully. RC is not motivated by malevolence, evil for its own sake. So to me, he's not an evil character, so it seems unfair that he has to be Evil with a captical 'E' on the alignment system. And it seems to me that the reason he gets stuck with the E is because of the association of his race with that E, no more and no less. I kind of feel like Rich is drawing this philosophical tension out on purpose.
Redcloak came to the realization that he couldn't break O-Chul by ending the prisoners. So he tried to use those same prisoners to break the will of the other prisoners. When that didn't work, those same prisoners ended up crucified upside down by devils, and then buried under thousands of tons of rubble, at Redcloak's bidding, so it's not as if we're talking about some great act of compassion here. Whatever else he is, Redcloak is calculating.

[Whiffet]

Ah, Redcloak. He is quite the controversial topic, isn't he? No one is quite sure what to make of him.

Now, in order to form a well-informed opinion, it is necessary to read Start of Darkness. It basically is Redcloak's backstory (with scenes that fill in some gaps for other characters).

My answer to the question? Yes, Redcloak is evil. He is not as evil as Xykon (the DStP commentary brings that up concerning the throw-human-prisoners-to-the-Snarl bit) and he wasn't always evil, but he is still evil by the beginning of the online comic. He is becoming more evil as time passes. I don't think he's completely irredeemable, but it would take something that seriously shakes him up to even give him a chance.

(SoD)
Honestly, I don't see how anyone could think Redcloak is justified and non-evil after the events outside Dorukan's dungeon.

EDIT: I suddenly remembered that we shouldn't have "morally justified" discussions, so I removed a few parts of this post. Forikroder, would you please edit your post where you quoted me so those sections aren't there anymore? I'd just like to play it safe with the "justified" thing.

[Forikroder]

Ah, Redcloak. He is quite the controversial topic, isn't he? No one is quite sure what to make of him. Is he evil? If so, how evil? Is he still justified if he is evil?

Now, in order to form a well-informed opinion, it is necessary to read Start of Darkness. It basically is Redcloak's backstory (with scenes that fill in some gaps for other characters).

My answer to the question? Yes, Redcloak is evil, and no, he is not justified. He is not as evil as Xykon (the DStP commentary brings that up concerning the throw-human-prisoners-to-the-Snarl bit) and he wasn't always evil, but he is still evil by the beginning of the online comic. He is becoming more evil as time passes. I don't think he's completely irredeemable, but it would take something that seriously shakes him up to even give him a chance.

(SoD)
Honestly, I don't see how anyone could think Redcloak is justified and non-evil after the events outside Dorukan's dungeon. Not just the murder of Right-Eye, either: the whole thing, especially the last conversation between the two brothers...

your not allowed to say if hes jsutified or not becuase your a human, you have no idea what redcloaks life has been like nor how the goblins live, you have no right to label Redcloaks actions as justified or not

hes undoubtably evil, but good and evil are easily defined terms, in majority of situations its very easy to tell if someone is good or evil and you can always tell if an act is good or evil, but you can never tell if an act or a person is justified or not

one mans justice is another mans murder

[natrl20]

Taking pleasure in killing your enemies is common in enemy-killing-oriented works of fiction, including OOTSverse. Paladins can do it, and still be considered good:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0824.html
on *both* sides, it is perceived by the perpetrators as righteous vengeance. like i said, inglorious basterds style; getting back at the Nazis. Redcloak sees the Sapphire guard the way we think of Nazis. But he doesn't murder civilians without cause, and indeed is reluctant to do so. While what he says here is intended to get inside Ochul's head, obviously, I think RC means everything he says in this strip http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html
I think that he sincerely thinks that the slaves will perceive his choice as merciful because he sees it as merciful, because mercy is a motivation for him. why not just toss them in? why not toss half of them in to see if that would get Ochul to break? Their value as labor must be trivial compared to even a slight chance of info about the snarly.

I'm not saying Red Cloak isn't responsible for tons of death and destruction, and I'm not saying that he isn't often enthusiastic about it.
What I'm saying is that *all of that* is just as true for the Saphire Guard. The situation seems, to me pretty morally symmetrical; for that reason, good and evil (morality-wise) seem to break apart from Evil and Good (alignment wise).

Redcloak brings this out in a way no other Evil character in the strip does, which makes him, for me, among the most interesting characters. All the other Evils really take pleasure in death and/or suffering (including Belkar). RC doesn't; although he does get satisfaction from revenge (but so do the Good characters, don't forget!). Even V is more wrathful and cruel than RC, not just Darth V either. Is V remotely good anymore? A teetering, unstable Lawful Neutral, right?

[Bulldog Psion]

To get back to the main discussion -- are there any other plans that the Order could use to pull their fat out of the fire at the moment?

[natrl20]

Sure seems like they need a Deus Ex Machina. One caster and some muggles vs 2 casters plus a succubus and a guy who can spam enervate with a wand? Never mind that T was at least an even match for the whole V-less order.

The order just doesn't have the fire power without V (or even with).

Only victory i can think of (without other characters getting in the mix or the Guild fracturing) is if they could somehow trick the Guild into taking damage from an Epic magic trap (basically like what happened to X in Dorukon's).

[Gift Jeraff]

Is V remotely good anymore? A teetering, unstable Lawful Neutral, right?V is True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664984&postcount=281).

[factotum]

Taking pleasure in killing your enemies is common in enemy-killing-oriented works of fiction, including OOTSverse. Paladins can do it, and still be considered good:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0824.html


You must have linked to the wrong comic there, because I don't see anything in that one to indicate that Thanh was taking pleasure in killing his enemies. (His smile at the end was more along the lines of "a good job done well" rather than revelling in the slaughter). Even if he was, he had ample good reasons to be killing them; they were evil invaders who were occupying his homeland, and that particular group possessed Xykon's phylactery, an extremely important McGuffin.

[The Succubus]

I had a rather amusing thought about Belkar's bloody, bloody language:

:belkar: "If I could rearrange the alphabet, I would stab U."

[raymundo]

I had a rather amusing thought about Belkar's bloody, bloody language:

:belkar: "If I could rearrange the alphabet, I would stab U."


That is not, by any chance, inspired by the recent xkcd strip?

[The Succubus]

Guilty as charged. :smallwink:

[FAD!]

2. In battle, out of battle, it's generally a bad idea to get your healer killed first, which is all I was saying.

Yes, because DnD combat is cheap. It doesn't even have Phoenix Downs (revive 1 dead party member).


That is not, by any chance, inspired by the recent xkcd strip?

I knew it as soon as I read it. :smallbiggrin:

[Burner28]

Massive overthinking? This ... is .. THE PLAYGROUND!!!!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Indeed it is. And as for the alignment discussion, the killing of the goblin villagers by several members of the Sapphire Guards is an evil act.

[Kish]

I can't remember Kilkil ever showing much emotion of any kind - when was this?
When Gannji was yelling at him for "losing" Gannji and Enor's paperwork.

[Gusion]

Given that Malack is an adventurer actively involved in an evil scheme and in a position to scream "Stop flapping your flat-toothed mouth for one minute!" at the horrifically evil leader of his adventuring party, and Kilkil is a secretary who seems regretful and terrified about having set someone up to be killed on orders from his boss, yes.

I happen to know that the part of that about Malack has been pointed out to you before, and you seem to have ignored it then.

So your ONLY evidence is that Malack is LE because he had the guts to yell at Tarquin? Really? Weak.

If anything it fully supports a Lawful Neutral alignment because he fundamentally yelling at Tarquin because he isn't holding up his part of the deal to put aside family issues for business.

If you think being "regretful" makes someone LN instead of LE, than why do you dismiss it when Malack expressed his regrets? He does so both in 724 and even a bit in 764 - which I've pointed out to you before.

You're just making stuff up in your second paragraph, but go ahead. Bring it. If that's the best you've got than it proves all the more that Malack is LN.

Edit: Corrected second strip reference (typed 674; meant 764)

[Ghosty]

To get back to the main discussion -- are there any other plans that the Order could use to pull their fat out of the fire at the moment?


Sure seems like they need a Deus Ex Machina. One caster and some muggles vs 2 casters plus a succubus and a guy who can spam enervate with a wand? Never mind that T was at least an even match for the whole V-less order.

The order just doesn't have the fire power without V (or even with)...

I agree with Bulldog's point on page 6 of this thread that the Order doesn't have a chance as things are now. T's toying with them and winning while the rest of the LG is watching. I think there are a few wild cards that can show up though.

I wonder if Ian and Uncle Geoff can do anything worthwhile? We know they're headed to a place Ian knows about that isn't Ivy's house (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html), but part of me suspects that Haley's already exceeded Ian's level. No real evidence for it, except that I have a hunch that Haley could have escaped successfully in one of the 'two dozen times [s]he'd picked the lock to her cell' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html), (panel 7) and Ian hadn't. Plus, her Resistance worked and was successful, while Ian's never got off the ground. That's probably due to the relative competency of Tarquin vs Xykon/Redcloak, though.

Serini is probably still alive, considering halflings' lifespans, but I doubt we'll see her until Kraagor's.

I think the rest of T's party will make an appearance, but also, not until Kraagor's. That, or they'll show up when Team Evil arrives at this Gate, and hands T his head in a small bag. I don't think T will die the first time he meets X---I think he's got a 'get out of jail free' item---and the Ritual is supposed to take some time, right? A few days? Long enough for T to summon the gang, if not all of their minions. Even the Empress, for the lulz. Then X can stomp all of them too, in a way that snuffs the Gate.

I wonder if some of the secrets of the Snarl (the world within it, etc...) will be revealed at this Gate, in such a way that it leads to the Gate being rendered useless for the Ritual?

Finally, I still wonder if V, F'Cide, and Girard still have something more to add to the story? Will Girard come back? (I have difficulty with the idea he's dead/dead, with draconic blood and longevity and all) Will T figure out that V killed his wife? If T + his party end up working with the Order to stop Team Evil, will the F'cide revelation split their alliance?

It'll be fun to find out.

[Emperordaniel]

Indeed it is. And as for the alignment discussion, the killing of the goblin villagers by several members of the Sapphire Guards is an evil act.

I believe the Giant said that some of the paladins involved in the attack did fall for killing the villagers (just not with all the dramatic lightning, etc), so the ones who committed those evil acts didn't exactly get away with doing that. :smallwink:

[Kish]

Mm...
Dramatically, showing no-name paladins Falling at that point in the story would confuse the narrative by making it unclear whether or not Redcloak had already earned a form of retribution against them. To be clear, he had not: Whether or not some of them lost a few class abilities does not change the fact that Redcloak suffered an injustice at their hands, one that shaped his entire adult life. That was the point of the scene.

The Twelve Gods may have sanctioned the paladins' massacres, but even the gods can't stop karma from kicking them in their divine asses once in a while.

Having Fallen there is a sign of having crossed some manner of line. But not having Fallen there by no means that those paladins who did not Fall are in the clear.

[ti'esar]

When Gannji was yelling at him for "losing" Gannji and Enor's paperwork.

Oh.

In that case, I agree with the guy above that it's more likely to be because of the angry fairly-high-level lizardfolk yelling in his face. But it could be some stirrings of conscience, or possibly both.

[St Fan]

Sure seems like they need a Deus Ex Machina. One caster and some muggles vs 2 casters plus a succubus and a guy who can spam enervate with a wand? Never mind that T was at least an even match for the whole V-less order.


The Order has two casters. Elan is a bard, remember.

Or does... that not count as a caster? :smallconfused:

And the Linear Guild has 3 casters with Nale.

[oppyu]

Oh.

In that case, I agree with the guy above that it's more likely to be because of the angry fairly-high-level lizardfolk yelling in his face. But it could be some stirrings of conscience, or possibly both.
I doubt it's a stirring of conscience; he's the top bureaucrat in a massive evil empire. This kind of thing probably happens all the time. If he was going to grow a soul at some point, it would probably be at something like torturing a little girl, not screwing over two mid-to-high-level bounty hunters who certainly aren't saints themselves.

The Order has two casters. Elan is a bard, remember.

Or does... that not count as a caster? :smallconfused:

And the Linear Guild has 3 casters with Nale.
It's not that bards don't count, it's that Elan doesn't count. With his level in Dashing Swordsman, he barely qualifies as a mook-slaying melee fighter.

[ti'esar]

I doubt it's a stirring of conscience; he's the top bureaucrat in a massive evil empire. This kind of thing probably happens all the time. If he was going to grow a soul at some point, it would probably be at something like torturing a little girl, not screwing over two mid-to-high-level bounty hunters who certainly aren't saints themselves.

I think it would involve more of the fact that he was doing it in person. Kilkil does not seem like a hands-on kind of guy - delivering a death sentence in person may not be something he does often.

But yeah, probably not.

[Forikroder]

i wonder jsut whats going to happen now though, with the position were in the odds of them splitting off for duels is pretty slim, and personally im not sure how epic it would be possible to make a group battle

[oppyu]

i wonder jsut whats going to happen now though, with the position were in the odds of them splitting off for duels is pretty slim, and personally im not sure how epic it would be possible to make a group battle
The Order wonders what's taking the Linear Guild so long to spring their trap, until they go outside and see Xykon standing over the badly beaten Linear Guild. Kilkil and Zz'dtri are already dead, Malack may or may not be dead, Tarquin may or may not be making a dramatic last stand, Nale and Sabine may or may not be running for the hills.

[Forikroder]

The Order wonders what's taking the Linear Guild so long to spring their trap, until they go outside and see Xykon standing over the badly beaten Linear Guild. Kilkil and Zz'dtri are already dead, Malack may or may not be dead, Tarquin may or may not be making a dramatic last stand, Nale and Sabine may or may not be running for the hills.

exactly, im glad your as worried as i am that this story is taking a bad turn

[ti'esar]

exactly, im glad your as worried as i am that this story is taking a bad turn

I'm not sure why that would be such a bad turn.

Or was that sarcasm?

[oppyu]

I'm not sure why that would be such a bad turn.

Or was that sarcasm?
It's possible he meant 'bad for the Order'. As tough as Tarquin is, they'd much rather be fighting him than an epic-level lich sorcerer.

[Felixc-91]

Sure seems like they need a Deus Ex Machina. One caster and some muggles vs 2 casters plus a succubus and a guy who can spam enervate with a wand? Never mind that T was at least an even match for the whole V-less order.

The order just doesn't have the fire power without V (or even with).

Only victory i can think of (without other characters getting in the mix or the Guild fracturing) is if they could somehow trick the Guild into taking damage from an Epic magic trap (basically like what happened to X in Dorukon's).


The Order has two casters. Elan is a bard, remember.

Or does... that not count as a caster? :smallconfused:

And the Linear Guild has 3 casters with Nale. ha, Nale barly counts. but then again, Elan does't really count either. both have the effect of a multi class caster.
But with a little creative use of clerical magic and a well set up ambush, a Deus Ex Machina will not be nessesary. If Durkon cast holy word (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm), that will banish both the demonoids and could deafen and maybe even deafen and blind both Nale and Zz'dtri. oh, and depending on Kilkil's HD it might do somthing really nasty to him to. if all that works, its down to just Tarquin and Malack. if Haley can land 3 sneak attacks on M that might just down him, he probably (see raspy voice) has low constitution due to being old. so then its just T vs the Order. and thats assuming that the Order can't lay any actual damaging traps (like mines of some kind). they will also have the advantage of durkon not being thrown across the room this time. i mean, he's probably figured out not to try and cast touch spells on "Thog" anymore.

[natrl20]

I think Z's spell resistence would protect him, but holy word only would, realistically only deafen him and Nale, if that. A deaf wizard is still more dangerous than a rogue, fighter and ranger combined, (and z prepared specifically for this fight!) a deaf Nale can still aim that nasty wand, which to me seems the only weapon in his arsenal worth mentioning. T is too good to just let a bunch of noncasters take out his casters.
What I meant is that élan and Nale (and belkar for that matter, who can technically cast spells, at least with a little owly assistance...) arent primary casters and cant cast anything that could effect this battle decisivley (unless someone gets poisoned, go Élan!) although I guess Nale could maybe charm or suggest belkar, which would be annoying.

Can durkon cast earthquake? That could be really good. Falling rock can bypass spell resistance :) and has been proven hazardous to the health of frail lizard folk.

[Kish]

Oh.

In that case, I agree with the guy above that it's more likely to be because of the angry fairly-high-level lizardfolk yelling in his face. But it could be some stirrings of conscience, or possibly both.
Oh, I think most likely Kilkil is Lawful Evil; he certainly seems to come from a Usually Lawful Evil land. It's just not nearly as unambiguous as it is for, say, Malack.

[Emperordaniel]

Can durkon cast earthquake? That could be really good. Falling rock can bypass spell resistance :) and has been proven hazardous to the health of frail lizard folk.

Last I checked, Clerics had to be at least 15th level to cast earthquake, which is an 8th-level spell... so I don't think so (although I could be wrong).

[Gusion]

Oh, I think most likely Kilkil is Lawful Evil; he certainly seems to come from a Usually Lawful Evil land. It's just not nearly as unambiguous as it is for, say, Malack.

LOL.

Now you're just trying to goad me while also ignoring my challenge to actually support your statements eh?

I'm especially amused because normally you're rather logical, but I suppose it has become an issue of pride for you.

But there is perhaps hope, since just earlier you said that Kilkil is Lawful Neutral...

[Kish]

Now you're just trying to goad me while also ignoring my challenge to actually support your statements eh?
We have a fundamental difference of opinion about which statement, between the two statements "Malack is clearly evil" and "Malack is clearly nonevil," is supported, not to say supportable.

That's fine; time, and perhaps a Holy Word, will tell. In the meantime, I decline to repeat myself on the subject. I have never claimed that everyone on this forum recognizes him as Lawful Evil.


But there is perhaps hope, since just earlier you said that Kilkil is Lawful Neutral...
Bad news for you there. Reread my earlier post and despair.

[Morty]

Malack is clearly ready and willing to argue with Tarquin when the latter does something he disapproves of, and Tarquin isn't entirely unwilling to listen when he does. He did so when Tarquin was toying around with the Order instead of going on the offensive. He didn't do so when Tarquin was orchestrating wars, backstabbing people, forcing women to marry him and burning escaped slaves alive. It doesn't exactly scream "non-evil".

[Gusion]

We have a fundamental difference of opinion about which statement, between the two statements "Malack is clearly evil" and "Malack is clearly nonevil," is supported, not to say supportable.

That's fine; time, and perhaps a Holy Word, will tell. In the meantime, I decline to repeat myself on the subject.

Indeed; however the real difference is that I have provided evidence to support my opinion whereas you have not. You're not "repeating yourself" since you've never once offered any specific evidence supporting he is LE.

You, or anyone else, may disagree on how probative my presented evidence is - but that is distinct from the only argument you've made... that he is clearly evil because he is clearly evil and has been shown to associate with Tarquin, who we both agree is evil.

That argument is spurious at best, as we know for a fact that OOTS has characters of further alignments in the same party (even ignoring Belkar, Roy is LG; V is TN.)


Malack is clearly ready and willing to argue with Tarquin when the latter does something he disapproves of, and Tarquin isn't entirely unwilling to listen when he does. He did so when Tarquin was toying around with the Order instead of going on the offensive. He didn't do so when Tarquin was orchestrating wars, backstabbing people, forcing women to marry him and burning escaped slaves alive. It doesn't exactly scream "non-evil".

Malack doesn't especially care if Tarquin is evil or not, although he has stated that he finds it distasteful and doesn't take part in some of it, at least. Malack yelled at Tarquin because he broke his word that this was "business."

"Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships." (D&D PH 3rd ed.) Malack has a very long history with Tarquin who shares in his belief of establishing a strong, orderly, central government.

And I'll even offer another piece of evidence. Malack and Durkon got along wonderfully. Durkon is Lawful Good (comic 844). Now does it make more sense for a LE cleric or a LN cleric to be friends with a LG cleric (comics 737, 739, et. al.)??

[Gift Jeraff]

That argument is spurious at best, as we know for a fact that OOTS has characters of further alignments in the same party (even ignoring Belkar, Roy is LG; V is TN.)I don't think I've ever heard of anyone arguing "allowing good to happen despite having the power to stop it is good," whereas there are definitely people who feel that allowing evil to happen despite having the power to stop it is evil.

Even ignoring that whole argument, there's still Malack having 15 years of administrative power in obviously evil regimes, and there's no equivalent of that in the case of Belkar and V.

Mind you, I wouldn't totally rule out LN, but just based on what we know I say he's LE.

[Kish]

Malack doesn't especially care if Tarquin is evil or not, although he has stated that he finds it distasteful
No, he has not.

[Gusion]

No, he has not.

I meant to apply that to "part of it" - specifically the "such displays of force" part.

I guess you're going to ignore the rest of my post. Tell you what, when we get an authoritative answer (either in strip or via Giant) if I'm wrong I will apologize to everyone. Care to say the same?


Mind you, I wouldn't totally rule out LN, but just based on what we know I say he's LE.

And what exactly are you including in "what we know"?

[Morty]

Malack doesn't especially care if Tarquin is evil or not, although he has stated that he finds it distasteful and doesn't take part in some of it, at least. Malack yelled at Tarquin because he broke his word that this was "business."

Links, please. Malack was angry at Tarquin for working with Nale. Please show me where he expressed discontent with Tarquin's other atrocities. Because when dealing with the kind of things Tarquin does, not doing anything when you're able to is evil.


"Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships." (D&D PH 3rd ed.) Malack has a very long history with Tarquin who shares in his belief of establishing a strong, orderly, central government.

Evil people can have friends and relationships, especially in this comic.


And I'll even offer another piece of evidence. Malack and Durkon got along wonderfully. Durkon is Lawful Good (comic 844). Now does it make more sense for a LE cleric or a LN cleric to be friends with a LG cleric (comics 737, 739, et. al.)??

Courtesy of the Index of Giant's Comments thread: Link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11507958&postcount=19)

[Gift Jeraff]

And what exactly are you including in "what we know"?
Malack having 15 years of administrative power in obviously evil regimes:smallconfused:

[Gusion]

Links, please. Malack was angry at Tarquin for working with Nale. Please show me where he expressed discontent with Tarquin's other atrocities. Because when dealing with the kind of things Tarquin does, not doing anything when you're able to is evil.

Yes, Malack was angry at Tarquin for working with Nale (which doesn't reflect on his alignment at all, really) but we were specifically discussing #854. Kish had quoted Malack from that strip and I am saying that Malack is upset that Tarquin was violating their "long standing protocols" to put business ahead of personal issues.

As for the other "discontent", as I've said Malack is mostly apathetic towards good or evil and focused on building a "strong central government." (737) That said, he doesn't eat the "evil" food at the "tedious" state dinner that he "must attend." (739; 743)

Really the only "evil" thing I've seen Malack do is in 818 where he literally wants Nale's skull. That's kinda creepy, but neutral people can sometimes do evil things as long as they're balanced out - which helping a LG cleric would certainly do.

Courtesy of the Index of Giant's Comments thread: Link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11507958&postcount=19)[/QUOTE]

"If Durkon was going to attack someone because that person has a job working for a predominantly Evil nation..."

Two things:

1. Giant specifically doesn't say that Malack is evil, just that he has a job working for an evil nation.

2. My point isn't as to why Durkon is friends with Malack (the point of Giant's answer), but why is Malack friends with Durkon. If anything, Malack demonstrates more interest in being friends with Durkon than the other way around (e.g. giving him a magical artifact in #739.)

Unless you think Malack did it to become close to Durkon in order to betray him, why would an evil cleric actively try becoming friends with a good one?

[snikrept]

Malack also stated that he doesn't attend Tarquin's dinner parties because of his fragile digestion.

That could be a polite way of saying "Tarquin eats some really evil, horrible stuff and I'm not having any."

[Forikroder]

I'm not sure why that would be such a bad turn.

Or was that sarcasm?

because it sets the order up as a group of worthless little wanna be heros who actually have no ability to actually do anything by themselves and rely on deus ex mechinas

if they need something like Xykon apearing and cleaning up team evil for them then they stand no actual chance agaisnt team evil

therefore, the order could not exist, it could be literally any random group of people and they would still be able to do jsut as much as the order did because the order didnt do anything, they were around when other people did things

not saying i neccesarily expect the order to go mano and mano VS Xykon and win a straight fight, but if they cant even beat the LG then the only way theyd beat team evil is either plot armour, a deus ex machina or by obtaining some super powerful macguffin or get some more help

[Math_Mage]

The Order wonders what's taking the Linear Guild so long to spring their trap, until they go outside and see Xykon standing over the badly beaten Linear Guild. Kilkil and Zz'dtri are already dead, Malack may or may not be dead, Tarquin may or may not be making a dramatic last stand, Nale and Sabine may or may not be running for the hills.

Highly unlikely, as the LG is about to enter the pyramid. I anticipate at least one more major clash between OotS and LG before the intervention of a third party.


Malack doesn't especially care if Tarquin is evil or not, although he has stated that he finds it distasteful and doesn't take part in some of it, at least. Malack yelled at Tarquin because he broke his word that this was "business."

Malack stated that he found certain unspecified displays of force to be distasteful. Without further information, this statement says little about his alignment.

The point of the argument about Malack yelling at Tarquin is that Malack plainly has influence over the course of events, and thus is at least partially culpable for Tarquin's grand scheme.


"Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships." (D&D PH 3rd ed.) Malack has a very long history with Tarquin who shares in his belief of establishing a strong, orderly, central government.

Consider the nature of their history, though. All indications are that they have been villains for a long time. See, for example, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html). A long personal history of joint villainy is not a strong argument that Malack is a reluctant Neutral committed to Tarquin's plan despite his alignment because of his personal relationship to Tarquin.


As for the other "discontent", as I've said Malack is mostly apathetic towards good or evil and focused on building a "strong central government." (737) That said, he doesn't eat the "evil" food at the "tedious" state dinner that he "must attend." (739; 743)

The strongest argument that Malack is neutral must come from his discussion of his god Nergal in 737. That he wants a strong central government only shows that he is Lawful; that he excuses himself from eating at the state dinner due to fragile digestion only matters if, as snikrept hypothesized, that excuse is a cover for disgust.


Unless you think Malack did it to become close to Durkon in order to betray him, why would an evil cleric actively try becoming friends with a good one?

Because characters are more complex than their alignments, which is a running theme of the comic. Consider that Hilgya also wanted to become Durkon's friend.

To be clear, I find merit in both sides of the discussion of Malack's alignment.


because it sets the order up as a group of worthless little wanna be heros who actually have no ability to actually do anything by themselves and rely on deus ex mechinas

if they need something like Xykon apearing and cleaning up team evil for them then they stand no actual chance agaisnt team evil

therefore, the order could not exist, it could be literally any random group of people and they would still be able to do jsut as much as the order did because the order didnt do anything, they were around when other people did things

There's a fairly significant gap between doing something meaningful and heroic to end the threat of TE, and defeating TE by martial force. I agree with you that the hypothetical oppyu proposed wouldn't make narrative sense, but for a different reason.

[Forikroder]

There's a fairly significant gap between doing something meaningful and heroic to end the threat of TE, and defeating TE by martial force. I agree with you that the hypothetical oppyu proposed wouldn't make narrative sense, but for a different reason.

i dont mind if the order manages to kill Xykon in a way other then beating him with a stick until he dies, as long as they make it possible for it to happen with there own strength

if Redcloak just decides to betray Xykon and takes him out solo that wouldnt be very satisfying

if the order weakens Xykon enough to allow something to happen that would be

[natrl20]

I think there's little doubt the Order will be key agents in the downfall of Xykon, but they can't do it on their own. I

I expect RC hanging X him out to dry in some way will be necessary, if not actively fighting, and I also expect some assistance from an unlikely ally or two.
Monster-san may play an important role, too... I mean, he might just be the most powerful character on the board, as even Xykon has a healthy respect for his abilities, if not him as a person.
this is open to interpretation, but Xykon seems to consider MitD to be in the same league with him and RC, right?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html

[Protecar]

She has a bow and error? :smalltongue:




This made me lol while at work. Good show, sir. :smallsmile:

[Forikroder]

I think there's little doubt the Order will be key agents in the downfall of Xykon, but they can't do it on their own. I

I expect RC hanging X him out to dry in some way will be necessary, if not actively fighting, and I also expect some assistance from an unlikely ally or two.
Monster-san may play an important role, too... I mean, he might just be the most powerful character on the board, as even Xykon has a healthy respect for his abilities, if not him as a person.
this is open to interpretation, but Xykon seems to consider MitD to be in the same league with him and RC, right?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html

that doesnt show anything, it only means he considered him stronger then the worthless fodder inhabiting the tower

TBH i, not sure what to make of the monster from a story perspective, we jsut know nothing about him and have no idea what hes going to do be doing later on in the story at all

[Ron Miel]

because it sets the order up as a group of worthless little wanna be heros who actually have no ability to actually do anything by themselves and rely on deus ex mechinas

dei ex machinae.

[Ron Miel]

because it sets the order up as a group of worthless little wanna be heros who actually have no ability to actually do anything by themselves and rely on deus ex mechinas

dei ex machinae.

[RMS Oceanic]

dei ex machinae.

"People called gods, they go the machine?":smalltongue:

[Ron Miel]

"People called gods, they go the machine?":smalltongue:

sorry, that's dei ex machina.