Witch Help

[Rickshaw]

Hey playground!

I have a player playing a 4th level witch (fluffwise, however, she is a Saucy Madam.) she feels like she has a way limited spell list and casting progression (to that end I let her be a spontaneous caster and treat her spell list as her spells known, like a beguiler.) Since I have never played a witch before, or even a full caster of any kind, I have no clue how to optimize one (short of...metamagics?)

she has decent cha, int, and dex (being a sylph with the fire-souled template will do that...) and likes the idea of being more a buffing/utility caster instead. shes thinking about taking some oracle levels and going into mystic theurge. I've heard mystic theurge isnt the best, and after looking it over, even the pathfinder one is...so so.

so any suggestions for optimization? PrCs? classes she should dip?

[Arbane]

Is this a Pathfinder Witch, or is there one for 3.5? (PF I can help with.)

[eggs]

There's the Witch variant Sorcerer in the DMG, which would certainly be more interesting with Beguiler spell mechanics.

But on the PF Witch, full list spontaneous casting seems like it would be pretty overwhelming on a tactical level.

[Saintheart]

Consider the Dread Witch PrC from Heroes of Horror? Five levels long and you scare the bejesus out of people all day long, including those with fear immunity.

[Rickshaw]

Yep, this is a pathfinder witch, and yes, I agree total spontaneous casting would be overwhelming, however - she is also new to spellcasting, so she tends to write down 4-5 spells from each spell level and just use those. so for now I'm just trying to get her used to it. if it becomes a problem, it'll go away :smallsmile:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Here is my handbook, if you want: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=480.0

Witch spell list is quite limited, but the hexes, especially slumber, are very good, so it works out. Basically you want maxed out int, even more than a wizard, since it's not only affecting spell save DCs, but those of the hexes as well.

[Rickshaw]

thanks! that helps a lot

[Arbane]

Right now, the best PrC for the witch is... more witch levels. Mystic Theurge won't get you more hexes, and they can be pretty good.

Unfortunately, witches aren't very good buffers - they have a few spells that are good for that, and the Fortune/Cackle hex combination is great, but you can only use it on each ally once per day. They are _fantastic_ at debuffing, though - between spells and hexes, they have plenty of ways to make enemies regret they were ever born/made/reanimated.

Streams' guide is a good one, but here's another one I found helpful: Hubble bubble boil and trouble. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1avH5AFYaZ838OC_W7BY_Bnt1TH9KGCc2ygTOb0CiYu0/edit?hl=en_US)

My own advice for optimizing: Start each fight with an AoE spell or two, then start hexing anyone who made their saves against them.

The Reach Spell and Persistent Spell metamagics could be good for a witch - Reach because they have a lot of decent touch spells but a need to stay OUT of melee, and Persistent to makel their 'save or cry' spells become 'save TWICE or cry'.

Who else have you got in the party?

[Engine]

so any suggestions for optimization? PrCs? classes she should dip?

To optimize a Witch, you should avoid multiclassing. Just pure Witch, all 20 levels. What else...

Hexes are your Witch best friends. Use them. Take Accursed Hex as your first level feat, so you could use your hexes more than once a day on your enemies (or allies). Extra Hex is a nice feat, but just for your normal hexes. For Major and Greater Hexes, Extra Hex is wasted, at least for now (we should see if other books will expand the list with some goodies).

Slumber, Evil Eye, Fortune and Flight are all great hexes, and you should take them in this order. Other hexes aren't that good, choose them to fit your character concept.

Patrons aren't that good, for the most part. Try to choose a Patron that gives you spells that aren't in the Witch spell list. The archetype Dimensional Occultist is nice with its Dimension Patron.

The spell list is unfortunately limited, but has solid debuffing spells and some good crowd control spells. Try to pick them. The spells that are good for a Wizard or a Sorcerer are good for a Witch, too.

Metamagic could be nice with Persistent Spells and Bouncing Spells so your SoL spells have a good chance to affect someone. Quicken Spells is a staple of high level casting. Extend Spells is nice and cheap for buffing, especially with low level spells.

[Arbane]

Slumber, Evil Eye, Fortune and Flight are all great hexes, and you should take them in this order. Other hexes aren't that good, choose them to fit your character concept.


I'd recommend reversing Evil Eye and Slumber on that list - 1 round of sleep just isn't that useful. And Misfortune and Cackle _definitely_ need to be on there somewhere if you're taking Fortune - and you SHOULD.

But definitely try to grab Flight as your level 5 Hex, if not sooner. (Free feather-falls can be really useful in some settings.) If a lot of your adventures take place in/around water, grab Water Lung.

from my own experience, the Ward Hex is nice, but can quickly become obsoleted by items giving the same bonuses. It's still useful for protecting summons, NPCs and such, but is it worth an action in mid-fight?

[Engine]

I'd recommend reversing Evil Eye and Slumber on that list - 1 round of sleep just isn't that useful. And Misfortune and Cackle _definitely_ need to be on there somewhere if you're taking Fortune - and you SHOULD.

I forgot Cackle, you're right.
I prefer Slumber over Evil Eye if I have some melee in the party that could CdG enemies when they fall asleep.

[doko239]

If they're having issues with limited spell selection, Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane can help tremendously. Grants a small number of spells of the user's choice off the Sorcerer/Wizard list so long as they are of a level she can cast. Unavailable until level 11 though, and has two prereq feats, as well as requiring 15 Cha.

Another approach would be to PRC into Pathfinder Savant; this gets you access to any spell off any class list, but you'll lose hex progression.

[Engine]

If they're having issues with limited spell selection, Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane can help tremendously. Grants a small number of spells of the user's choice off the Sorcerer/Wizard list so long as they are of a level she can cast. Unavailable until level 11 though, and has two prereq feats, as well as requiring 15 Cha.

Another approach would be to PRC into Pathfinder Savant; this gets you access to any spell off any class list, but you'll lose hex progression.

I love Eldritch Heritage, unfortunately Charisma is a dump stat for most Witches, and I feel that investing so many points in Charisma and picking a mostly useless feat (Skill Focus) is a bad trade, even if you could choose some great spell from the Wizard's list. The Witch spell list is fine, sure it lacks a lot of goodies, but I wouldn't take Eldritch Heritage over other more useful feats.

[ngilop]

Im cofnused on several fornts

the player feels she has too a limited of a spell list. yet she only takes a couple of spells per level seems to be a self correcting problem in my eyes


and as for the witch spell list itslef.. is pretty much the best fo both worlds. after all if you subscirbe to teh class 'tiers' then teh witch is 'tier' 1

i guess in the end none fo these complaint that your player has makes any sense to me.


especially the part about being more buff/utility focused because in a game i am playng where I am a witch ( though since im male i a Warlcok) that is all my spells are for minus the occasional damage spell