Buy the numbers Monk [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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NilOriol

2012-06-11, 07:51 AM

I'm on an buy the numbers campaing iron kingdoms and a team mate died... (our master is an assassin xD)
he wanted to make a "monk" or something like that, and he's searching how to tune it up
As is buy the numbers he can take almost anything of anywhere if he has the recs.

Namfuak

2012-06-11, 08:31 AM

There are two simple answers:

1. Play an unarmed swordsage (Tome of Battle). Maybe take a 1 or 2 level dip in monk for the saves and free feats

2. Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 with the Tashalatora feat (don't remember the source, just google it), so that the levels of Psychic Warrior stack with monk for AC, Flurry of Blows, and Unarmed damage.

I'm sure there are more ways to do it if ToB and Psionics are banned, but those will have to get more in depth. Also, is there any particular archetype of monk he wants to play?

Flickerdart

2012-06-11, 08:46 AM

Tashalatora is in Secrets of Sarlona, I believe. Lets you stack Monk levels with those in a psionic class for unarmed strike and AC progression (and also speed boosts maybe?) and requires Monastic Training.

docnessuno

2012-06-11, 09:09 AM

I prefer decisive strike monk 2-4 / Something 1-3 / War mind 10 / Something 5 for a Tashalatora build. The ranks in Knowledge (psionics) required are easily met by level 5 with the Knowledge devotion feat.

Demonic_Spoon

2012-06-11, 11:49 AM

A Monk walks into a general store

"Good day to you shopkeep, I would like to purchase some numbers if you please"

"I'm very sorry sir, but we don't have any abstract concepts in stock, perhaps I could interest you in some of my fine concrete objects, of which I have numerous items in stock?"

"No thank you. I would simply like to obtain some numbers, any will do. The fact of the matter is simply that as it stands currently I have to few."

"Once more sir I must apologize, but I cannot help you in this regard. If I may suggest the wizard's guild or the Far Realms Shop down the street?"

"Damnit man I just want some numbers! Is that so hard?! Stop holding out on me! I know you have some of them somewhere around here! Don't make me punch you!"

"Please sir! Calm down! I'm sure you're numbers are just as big as everyone else's numbers!"

NilOriol

2012-06-11, 12:27 PM

Tashalatora build is nice, but not in buy the numbers...
and just asked to my GM, psionic powers are banned :S

hope there's another way to build a good monk

Hiro Protagonest

2012-06-11, 12:31 PM

I'm pretty sure that in my time on these forums, I've heard of every variant not from an obscure 3rd party source. What the hell is "buy the numbers"?

NilOriol

2012-06-11, 12:36 PM

buy the numbers is an adaptation of d&d without lvls, you just pay PX to take the things you should by earning lvl... (or something like this xD)

maybe adding combat rogue (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Combat_Rogue,_Variant_(3.5e_Class)#Snap_Kick) on the mixt?
any one knows from where does that come?

BShammie

2012-06-11, 12:43 PM

maybe adding combat rogue (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Combat_Rogue,_Variant_(3.5e_Class)#Snap_Kick) on the mixt?
any one knows from where does that come?

That class is homebrew, it doesn't come from any WotC source. You might not be allowed to use it.
You shouldn't use DandDWiki, it is notably unreliable and is filled with bad homebrew. Here is a link to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/), which contains every OGL thing for D&D 3.5.

NilOriol

2012-06-11, 12:45 PM

oh i hate that web ¬¬ everything cool on it is homebrew T_T

JKTrickster

2012-06-11, 12:58 PM

You could try Tome of Battle - the Swordsage is a wonderful class.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-06-11, 01:54 PM

oh i hate that web ¬¬ everything cool on it is homebrew T_T

It also has worse balance than 3.5, which is saying something. For example, that class? Can gain Invisibility. At 19th level. Too late.

And I still don't understand how this "buy the numbers" thing works. Is it an adaption of Sean K. Reynolds feat point system? I don't know your DM, but if he made it himself, that's complicated enough that unless he has an excellent grasp on system mastery (that is, something like TheDementedOne and the best homebrewers on here working together, with some of the best optimizers on here playtesting it), the system is going to be of questionable balance at best (and in this case, I'm working under the assumption that 3.5 is balanced).

eggs

2012-06-11, 02:06 PM

Not speaking for this "buy the levels" deal (my Google-fu must be faltering):

Almost all of the monk's features are compressed into its first 2 levels, and those first two levels aren't bad at all.

But in terms of concrete advice, Monk 2/[Any workable melee class] X is almost always a better monk than straight Monk, and often provides a meaningful advantage to the non-monk build as well - Monk 2 gets two prerequisite-free bonus feats from this list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) (note that choosing a fighting style isn't binding; you can go Hand&Foot for Stunning Fist at level 1, then Passive way for Improved Trip at level 2), Wis-to-AC, Flurry of Blows OR Decisive Strike (PHB2 variant that adds huge damage to AoO builds), Improved Unarmed Strike (useful for prereqs), Evasion OR Spell Reflection (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a) OR Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil variant that allows a character to go invisible once every three rounds, as greater invisibility).

Or, if looking for non-psionic monk-type gishes, the Oriental Adventures Shaman (updated to 3.5 in Dragon #318 and expanded in Spell Compendium) takes some of the best parts of the Druid, Monk, Cleric and Paladin and mixes them up into a slurry of unarmed combatty baseclass goodness. Sacred/Enlightened Fist builds can also work pretty nicely. Monk1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Abjurant Champion 5 can also be a nifty option for a Halfling Skirmish-based gish.

For noncasting melee builds, Warblade and Swordsage work nicely. Even though Unarmed Swordsage is often pitched as a Monk replacement, the 2-level Monk dip can still be a useful alternative to straight swordsage (more feats are always needed in SS builds, and prerequisite ability scores are often tough). The Barbarian Pounce dip is as useful as ever, and a stint in Serenity Paladin of Tyranny for Wisdom-based Travel Devotions, aura of debuffing and Wis-to-saves can be pretty neat at low levels. (But at high levels, there's a the normal theme of Go Magic or Go Home.)

Greyfeld85

2012-06-11, 02:22 PM

You can dip Cleric or Wizard, and go Sacred Fist or Enlightened Fist (respectively).

Although Duskblade may work better for Enlightened Fist if you can convince your DM to allow Arcane Channeling to be used with unarmed attacks.

turkishproverb

2012-06-11, 02:26 PM

Find splatbooks (even 3rd party) that have feats that reduce MAD (IE putting wisdom bonus in place of dex/Con/int/etc)

ThiagoMartell

2012-06-11, 02:29 PM

The Glyphstone

2012-06-11, 02:30 PM

We need to know the rules of Buy The Numbers, all of them you can supply to us legally, in order to give you any help.

eggs

2012-06-11, 02:38 PM

Although Duskblade may work better for Enlightened Fist if you can convince your DM to allow Arcane Channeling to be used with unarmed attacks.
Per the Rules Compendium, touch spells interact with unarmed strikes that way by default (even without Arcane Channeling).

ThiagoMartell

2012-06-11, 02:48 PM

Per the Rules Compendium, touch spells interact with unarmed strikes that way by default (even without Arcane Channeling).

Funnily, those rules were on Complete Arcane at first, the same book that brings us Enlightened Fist.
I'm sure the class has something better than just doing something everyone can already do.

animewatcha

2012-06-11, 02:49 PM

Agent 451

2012-06-11, 02:53 PM

We need to know the rules of Buy The Numbers, all of them you can supply to us legally, in order to give you any help.

There actually is a published "Buy the Numbers" (http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=17058) book. It's by S. T. Cooley Publishing.

Is this something that you are using OP? If so, is it any good? I've seen it looking at places like RPGnet, but I've never talked to anyone who has actually used it.

eggs

2012-06-11, 03:03 PM

I know that you can abandon the style legally, but what book says that you 'switch' from style to style to grab the associated styles bonus feat?

-editted- Sorry. 500 internal error is messing with posting ability. hold on.

The question is aimed toward 'eggs', but if anyone can answer..
Unearthed Arcana/SRD; end of the variant entry:
"A monk can abandon her fighting style by selecting a different bonus feat at 2nd or 6th level; however, if she does so, she loses the bonus on skill checks gained at 1st level and never gains the bonus ability of the fighting style (even if she meets the prerequisites). "

ThiagoMartell

2012-06-11, 03:07 PM

Unearthed Arcana/SRD; end of the variant entry:
"A monk can abandon her fighting style by selecting a different bonus feat at 2nd or 6th level; however, if she does so, she loses the bonus on skill checks gained at 1st level and never gains the bonus ability of the fighting style (even if she meets the prerequisites). "

You know, I believe that quote means you go back to standard Monk, not that you can jump between styles. It just says you abandon your style - it doesn't say you get to pick a new one.

NilOriol

2012-06-11, 03:20 PM

There actually is a published "Buy the Numbers" (http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=17058) book. It's by S. T. Cooley Publishing.

Is this something that you are using OP? If so, is it any good? I've seen it looking at places like RPGnet, but I've never talked to anyone who has actually used it.

is that one.
well, depends on the players (and the DM), we don't play a lot to d&d, we play more "interpretative" and less "hit cuz hit" role playing games. (we change game every 6 months)
so we don't optimize a lot... (a good interpretation on the character is the think)
buy the numbers give you that, you can have an analphabet (barbarian like) sorcer, or whatever.

the thing is we want our things, to be in addition to our characters not useless. (that's why i'm asking)

what about this: Monk of the Enabled Hand (dragon magazine, to get the avility that makes your atacks like touch spells) with the substitution of flurry of blows that double damage of one atack.

also, how do "Kong Soo, "Empty Hand"", i don't understand the conditional sentence, neighter why is a large weapon better than a non-large

Vow of Poverty is homebrew? (i got the link by the player of the monk http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Vow_of_Poverty) found on Book of Exalted Deeds,

Gavinfoxx

2012-06-11, 03:22 PM

I think he is talking about this ruleset:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?src=RPGLife_Reviews&affiliate_id=228694&products_id=18175

with this:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/64479/Iron-Kingdoms-Character-Guide

So all of our advice has to take those two into account I think??

NilOriol

2012-06-11, 03:27 PM

Greyfeld85

2012-06-11, 03:38 PM

Funnily, those rules were on Complete Arcane at first, the same book that brings us Enlightened Fist.
I'm sure the class has something better than just doing something everyone can already do.

Exactly. Arcane Channeling allows you to cast your touch spell and deliver it with a melee attack with a single standard action (instead of just delivering it as a touch attack). But the ability is written specifically to say, ".. deliver the spell through your weapon with a melee attack." Since unarmed attacks aren't considered actual weapons, you'd have to verify it with your DM.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-06-11, 03:58 PM

Exactly. Arcane Channeling allows you to cast your touch spell and deliver it with a melee attack with a single standard action (instead of just delivering it as a touch attack). But the ability is written specifically to say, ".. deliver the spell through your weapon with a melee attack." Since unarmed attacks aren't considered actual weapons, you'd have to verify it with your DM.

Unarmed strikes are considered natural weapons. Monks also treat their unarmed strikes as manufactured weapons.

Slipperychicken

2012-06-11, 04:04 PM

A Monk walks into a general store

I love this. Now I feel like there should be a short story or webcomic about a Monk in the metagame, who is totally worthless, unwanted. After he was layed off for a Tashalatora who could do his job better, his life quickly fell apart; his wife took the house, he lost everything. His poison immunity works against him; he can't even drown his problems at the Inn. Frustrated by his small numbers, he tries to spend his WBL increasing them, but to no avail. Now he desperately tries to get any kind of employment he can, and gets into all kinds of crazy shenanigans.

NilOriol

2012-06-11, 04:45 PM

· Kong Soo “empty hand” (Su): A monk of the enabled hand is already adept at disarming his opponents (via the Improved Disarm feat). However, a monk of the enabled hand is an expert at relieving his foes of their weapons. When using kong soo, the monk’s hands are treated as a two-handed weapon when the monk and his foe make opposed attack rolls with respect to their weapons (that is, if the foe holds a two-handed or light weapon, the foe gains no bonus to the opposed roll even though the monk’s “weapon” is his hand). Furthermore, as a result of his kong soo training, the monk of the enabled hand gains a +4 bonus to his opposed roll to disarm his foe.

what's the point on this? (from dragon magazine compendium)

with decisive strike (player handbook) double damage from draconic fist (dragon magic)?

well, now we're just searching some way to increase the damage

Pyromancer999

2012-06-11, 04:49 PM

For anyone who has not caught on to what Buy The Numbers is, it's a popular 3rd party supplement that instead of using class levels, let's you straight up trade XP for class features when you want. Although it's difficult to help without buying the supplement, I hope this can somewhat help the understanding of people of this guy's situation somewhat, so that people can give advice on class features and feats the guy might want, as opposed to dips and general class-taking, as neither of the latter exist under a Buy The Numbers system.

Asheram

2012-06-11, 04:59 PM

I love this. Now I feel like there should be a short story or webcomic about a Monk in the metagame, who is totally worthless, unwanted. After he was layed off for a Tashalatora who could do his job better, his life quickly fell apart; his wife took the house, he lost everything. His poison immunity works against him; he can't even drown his problems at the Inn. Frustrated by his small numbers, he tries to spend his WBL increasing them, but to no avail. Now he desperately tries to get any kind of employment he can, and gets into all kinds of crazy shenanigans.

Marvin the downsized monk? ((Even more of a pun if it whole ordeal started due to him being reincarnated as a halfling))

Gavinfoxx

2012-06-11, 05:03 PM

Right. Things important to unarmed melee combatants in D&D 3.5e, in no particular order:

1.) Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, etc.
2.) Natural Attacks, like claws and bites and such
3.) Rage, or SRD's Whirling Frenzy, or other similar things (especially options that let you use other skills and abilities while in rage, like bardsong. Also, you can Rage while wild shaping.)
4.) Wildshape, and the ability to cast or manifest while in wildshape
5.) Pounce. Flat out, if you focus on multiple attacks, you need Pounce somehow.
6.) The ability to Speak/Whistle/etc. while in wildshape (for communication and bardsong)
7.) Bardsong, for Dragonfire shenanigans, and other per-attack boosts, like Sneak Attack.
8.) Full BAB
9.) High Strength (even if only after wild shape)
10.) Spells that improve unarmed combat damage or claw damage, and give you stuff like natural armor and insight bonuses to hit and damage and enhancement bonuses to ability scores and such
11.) The ability to cast Magic Fang, yourself, on yourself, and other things like silvered fang or silvered claw or align weapon and other similar sorts of things to get past DR
12.) Extra attacks that don't require you to make a full attack action to make, like Snap Kick or the bonus attacks from Whirling Frenzy
13.) Ability to fly, spider climb, have a swim speed, burrow speed, etc.
14.) Ability to Tumble well to not provoke attack of opportunity
15.) Power Attack, if you can get various bonuses to hit (from spells, persistent spells, buffs, wild shape, rage, etc.)
16.) Ability to use your unarmed strikes or natural attacks at range (generally via spell or power)
17.) Reach increases, size increases, etc., especially for attacks of opportunity and knock down and similar builds.
18.) You probably want access to some sort of divine magic, like cleric or druid or archivist, for no big arcane somatic stuff, just some minor displaying of your holy symbol or berries to power the magic, for buff spells. This means you don't have to worry about resting eight hours to regain your spells, as well. You might want to get Turn Undead or similar for Divine Metamagic
19.) You want high con (even for wild shape), and at least a D8 HD. Will Save is most important.
20.) Ability to affect both ethereal and incorporeal creatures. If an Allip automatically wins against you, you have done something wrong.
21.) Access to Tome of Battle maneuvers system. If you can't get spellcasting or psionics or incarnum, this is the next best thing. You really want access to as much of this system -- and the Warblade's refresh mechanic -- as possible.
22.) If you get a high number of attacks, you want to get full strength damage -- not half strength damage -- on as many of them as possible, so it is worthwhile to increase your strength significantly for damage purposes. Normal Monk fails at this.
23.) If you Wild Shape, you want Wilding Clasps to use your gear while in Wild Shape, or gear that you can take off, Wild Shape, and put back on or have put back on you (only works for some types of gear), and be able to Wild Shape 24/7 (you need a way to communicate while in Wild Shape if you do that).

Anything I missed?

Note that monk doesn't get most of those...

Slipperychicken

2012-06-11, 05:19 PM

Marvin the downsized monk? ((Even more of a pun if it whole ordeal started due to him being reincarnated as a halfling))

Maybe he was fired after dying for the 6th time that year, then his life insurance stopped covering True Resurrection, and gave him a Reincarnate instead. He wakes up as a Halfling 1 level lower (further reducing his employment prospects), as he realizes his life's been turned upside-down. There could even be a part where he tries to take advantage of his destitution by taking Vow of Poverty, has great financial success as a result, but has to give his newfound wealth to charity. When he finally retrains Vow of Poverty, success has already passed him by, and he's destitute once more.

Gavinfoxx

2012-06-12, 11:46 AM

So... does anyone know any more details of this buy the numbers supplement?

Anyway, OP, there have been several attempts to assign point buy values to different feats and stuff...

There's this feat point system from Sean K Reynolds, here:

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html

For example... and our homebrew fixes to that feat point buy system here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245177

You should really examine the difference between those very very closely... ours is, of course, wayyyyyy more balanced... but the reasons it is might not be immediately obvious.

Agent 451

2012-06-12, 01:16 PM

ours is, of course, wayyyyyy more balanced... but the reasons it is might not be immediately obvious.

Except for the fact that the first is by SKR...

Pyromancer999

2012-06-12, 01:29 PM

So... does anyone know any more details of this buy the numbers supplement?

For anyone who has not caught on to what Buy The Numbers is, it's a popular 3rd party supplement that instead of using class levels, let's you straight up trade XP for class features when you want. Although it's difficult to help without buying the supplement, I hope this can somewhat help the understanding of people of this guy's situation somewhat, so that people can give advice on class features and feats the guy might want, as opposed to dips and general class-taking, as neither of the latter exist under a Buy The Numbers system.

Does this help any?

Gavinfoxx

2012-06-12, 03:22 PM

Well, no. I was hoping for, if not quotes, at least descriptions of relative costs of particular features.

Pyromancer999

2012-06-12, 04:24 PM

Well, no. I was hoping for, if not quotes, at least descriptions of relative costs of particular features.

I believe you have to get the actual book for that. It's stuff like that which makes it hard to bring 3rd party supplements into discussion.

Gavinfoxx

2012-06-12, 05:28 PM

I meant stuff like, "Wild shape is twice the xp cost of bardsong" you know... not the actual NUMBERS, but a description...

NilOriol

2012-06-16, 06:50 AM

I meant stuff like, "Wild shape is twice the xp cost of bardsong" you know... not the actual NUMBERS, but a description...

((x+1)*(x/2))*Y

X being the number of feats, spells, caster lvl, etc etc, you alredy have
Y being the base cost

it all follows (well not all but almost) this idea, the more you get in something more exp, you waste on it, Y is the balancing factor, cuz is not the same to get bab than to get feats...

StreamOfTheSky

2012-06-16, 09:54 AM

A game where you buy up class features instead of having a class is the absolute worst possible game to play a monk in. Why? Because everyone who's ever designed the game has shown a MASSIVE over-valuing of the class features monk gets. I recall someone trying to assign point values to all the class features of the 3E classes...and monk, the weakest class in the game, had the highest point total! So, not only will you gain the low power of the monk, in such a system, you're almost assured of paying MORE for the priviledge of sucking!

Spellcasters tend to fare the best in such a system. No matter how much someone is aware of caster/non-caster imbalance, any sort of points system seems to end up undervaluing spellcasting compared to mundane abilities.

Gavinfoxx

2012-06-16, 11:34 AM

That's why I mentioned the class features which will actually help him do unarmed damage!

He shouldn't use, you know, monk class features. Most of those suck!

He should instead buy the class features that actually help with unarmed fighting, like the ones I mentioned.

So....

Important class features for unarmed / claw fighting are:

Whirling Frenzy or Inspire Courage
Pounce
Wild Shape
some way to get natural attacks / natural weapons in your base form
full bab
high strength
extra movement modes
some set of powers (divine spellcasting, arcane spellcasting, incarnum, manifester levels, maneuvers) which has abilities that can be used in melee.
Some way to get magic fang or magic weapon or whatever on your weapons without expensive amulets or begging for buffs

etc etc

Also, are you going to be unarmored, or do you just want to fight without a weapon as the main deal?

StreamOfTheSky

2012-06-16, 11:46 AM

If the buying system makes him pay points for Monk AC bonus (which requires not usng armor), I would advise not being unarmored. Why pay points for an inferior AC? It's not like the system's going to give you back points for not wearing armor. At most, monk AC should cost the same as light armor proficiency, which is all you need to end up decked out in mithral breastplate / celestial armor and a mithral or darkwood heavy shield.

Gavinfoxx

2012-06-16, 12:08 PM

Gavinfoxx

2012-06-16, 12:16 PM

OP, can you get class features from any base class or just core or see classes? Is the price the same regardless of class feature? Does spellcasting cost more than rage and similar class features? What is the order in which you are buying class features so far?

After all, pure Barbarian, with the right alternative class features, is a great 'monk'...

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=408878

You should aim for at least that effective... though that uses a necklace of natural weapons and a fanged ring, which is a pretty big money sink!

StreamOfTheSky

2012-06-16, 04:08 PM

You don't need shield proficiency for many shields though. just get acp to 0. Even with no proficiency you can wear leather, masterwork studded leather, or mithral chain shirt, too. As long as you don't have to worry about ASF, you're good.

That is why I said you only need Light Armor Proficiency to be decked out in mithral/celestial breastplate/chainmail AND a mithral or darkwood heavy shield.

Note the distinct lack of "Shield Proficiency" in there. :smalltongue: