New D&D player; general advice and questions

[andecoco]

I was hesitant to create this thread, since Googling was fine too, but I do have a few questions that I'm having difficulty resolving through Google.

A few months ago a group of friends suggested I play D&D. Since I was busy then, I couldn't get into it with them. So they told me, if and when I'm free, I should go to this website, learn D&D 3.5e rules via d20SRD (d20srd.org), ask for help, and join a play by post game. Also, enjoy the webcomic.

So I read through the SRD, as well as a few starting guides a la Google. I still do have a few questions though.

1) There seems to be a power-discrepancy issue between a lot of the classes, as explained by JaronK's tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0). Is this something I should be worried about at all?

2) I don't understand this LA buyoff system for templates. Let's say I wanted to create a 3rd level character. So I could create a commoner2 with a +1 LA template? Alternatively, in-game, if I were granted permission to apply a template, at third level I could apply it and pay an XP fine?

3) Can more than 2 people grapple? Who makes what checks?

4) Crafting costs XP and gold. So it doesn't matter if there's requisite materials around, or if you need to travel to the appropriate vendor. You can literally craft things right there in the dungeon. Wat?

5) The flight rules are a bit difficult to understand. I spend turns to actually turn, right? And certain modes of flight require that I stay in movement?

6) Are there any useful D&D websites I should know of? Quality of life improvements?

7) Anything I should know before I jump right into play-by-posts? I assume that a game as technical as this has some requirements... for instance, the specific dice rolling instrument provided by these forums.

[Talesin]

So I read through the SRD, as well as a few starting guides a la Google. I still do have a few questions though.


I can't help you with all the questions but i'll have a stab at the few I can help with



1) There seems to be a power-discrepancy issue between a lot of the classes, as explained by JaronK's tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0). Is this something I should be worried about at all?

I've never really found it a problem because the people i've played with are there to have fun. While yes a Tier 1 class could potentially dominate a game if its given the chance, if you're playing with the right sort of people it shouldn't make a huge difference to your enjoyment of the game.

You may find your character, if you play a lower tier vs a higher tier, has less options in certain situations but there should always be some you excel in. But again this is down to the group so you could have 1 player who just takes over and does everything, but then thats an out of game issue rather than an in game one IMO.



4) Crafting costs XP and gold. So it doesn't matter if there's requisite materials around, or if you need to travel to the appropriate vendor. You can literally craft things right there in the dungeon. Wat?

The gold is for buying the materials. So you could potentially craft in a dungeon, if you've brought the required materials and have the tools to craft the item. But if you've not brought them you can't just whip up whatever item you need a moments notice.

Artificer might be a bit different but i've not read the rules regarding that class.



7) Anything I should know before I jump right into play-by-posts? I assume that a game as technical as this has some requirements... for instance, the specific dice rolling instrument provided by these forums.

Play by post games take a long time, a very long time, so be prepared to be in for the long haul. They aren't hugely time consuming but more require you post once a day or so. You might want to pick a thread on these boards and have a read through a play by post game, just to get familiar with them.

And yes the board has a built in dice roller.

[Demonic_Spoon]

I was hesitant to create this thread, since Googling was fine too, but I do have a few questions that I'm having difficulty resolving through Google.

A few months ago a group of friends suggested I play D&D. Since I was busy then, I couldn't get into it with them. So they told me, if and when I'm free, I should go to this website, learn D&D 3.5e rules via d20SRD (d20srd.org), ask for help, and join a play by post game. Also, enjoy the webcomic.

So I read through the SRD, as well as a few starting guides a la Google. I still do have a few questions though.

1) There seems to be a power-discrepancy issue between a lot of the classes, as explained by JaronK's tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0). Is this something I should be worried about at all?

2) I don't understand this LA buyoff system for templates. Let's say I wanted to create a 3rd level character. So I could create a commoner2 with a +1 LA template? Alternatively, in-game, if I were granted permission to apply a template, at third level I could apply it and pay an XP fine?

3) Can more than 2 people grapple? Who makes what checks?

4) Crafting costs XP and gold. So it doesn't matter if there's requisite materials around, or if you need to travel to the appropriate vendor. You can literally craft things right there in the dungeon. Wat?

5) The flight rules are a bit difficult to understand. I spend turns to actually turn, right? And certain modes of flight require that I stay in movement?

6) Are there any useful D&D websites I should know of? Quality of life improvements?

7) Anything I should know before I jump right into play-by-posts? I assume that a game as technical as this has some requirements... for instance, the specific dice rolling instrument provided by these forums.

1) Depending on the optimization level of your group, probably not too much. Unless you play Bob the Commoner Wonder in a group of Druids, Clerics and Wizards. Try to stay above tier 4 generally.

2)Yes, but not the ingame example. If you apply a template ingame your ecl immediately jumps by whatever the ecl is. Unless you gain it as a class ability or such. (Well not strict RAW but strict RAW is retarded)

3)I try to avoid grappling so no idea, but I think the answer is yes.

4)The gold is used to acquire the neccessary ingredients etc. Not to mention that it takes several days to craft something, so doing it in the dungeon may be inadvisable.

5)Yes, depending on manoeuvrability.

6)minmaxboard's handbooks (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?board=28.0) for all your handbooks needs.
imarvin's handy databases (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/index.php)
d&d tools (dndtools.eu)

7)Have a good grasp of the basic d20 rolling mechanic, modifiers, and combat mechanics and you're good to go. Further stuff like spellcasting systems may have to be learnt depending on class.

EDIT: Swordsaged. :(

[VGLordR2]

3) Can more than 2 people grapple? Who makes what checks?


Yes. See here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Grapple#Multiple_Grapplers).



5) The flight rules are a bit difficult to understand. I spend turns to actually turn, right? And certain modes of flight require that I stay in movement?


Rules for flying are here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fly). Any movement while flying is part of your move action.



6) Are there any useful D&D websites I should know of? Quality of life improvements?


www.myth-weavers.com/

[Fatebreaker]

First off, welcome to the hobby! It's a lot of fun, and it can take you to a lot of cool places. I hope you enjoy it!

I'll leave #2-#7 to folks better suited than I, but I did want to touch on your first concern:


1) There seems to be a power-discrepancy issue between a lot of the classes, as explained by JaronK's tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0). Is this something I should be worried about at all?

Is this something you should be worried about? Well, that's something you can answer far better than we can. Think about the people you want to play with. Are they the kind of people who will make this an issue?

The tier list provides you with an idea of how many options are open to a given class. Wizard is in Tier One because a wizard is extremely versatile -- you can make a wizard accomplish most anything you set your mind to, and the next day, you can choose different spells which let you do entirely different things. Lower tiered classes don't have as many options as higher-tiered classes, but they can still fulfill their role rather well in a specific area.

Think of it like a toolbox. Some classes are like whole workshops, with all sorts of tools in them. High quality, wide variety, backups, the works. Other classes are going to have most of the tools you need most of the time. Others are a very specific set of tools, such as a drill set, but by God if you need to drill something, they're the tool for the job! And, sadly, some are just a carboard box with a rusty hammer and a broken set of pliers.

Of course, none of that has any bearing on how well you can use those tools. So the tier system may be a starting point ("I want to play a T3 or higher melee class," for example), but by no means does it define how the game will actually play out in the end. That depends on you, your DM, and your fellow players.

Your best bet is to find a class that you like, and to play with people who want to play with you. Things tend to work out when that happens, and if things don't work out, well, we can help.

Good luck!

[whibla]

3) Can more than 2 people grapple? Who makes what checks?

Yes. Whilst the simplest grapple is one on one, grapples can include any number of individuals (depending on their respective sizes) all grappling the same opponent, or any number of individuals all grappling different individuals within the 'ruck'.

First off, there are a number of feats, skills, and spells, that are of special relevance to grapples, foremost among them being: Improved Grapple (feat); Improved Unarmed Strike (feat); Escape Artist (skill); and Freedom of Movement (spell). There are many others that can be relevant, but these cover the basics...

When a grapple attempt is declared by an individual against a target (there are special rules if the defender is already involved in a grapple) unless the attacker has the Improved Grapple feat the grapple attempt provokes an attack of opportunity (check) from the defender. If this attack of opportunity is not provoked, or misses, or fails to cause any damage (through DR for example) the attacker makes a melee touch attack roll (check). If the attack rolls fails that's the end of this specific grapple attempt. If on the other hand the attack hits then both combatants make an opposed grapple check* (check), as a free action. If the attacker wins this opposed roll then he deals damage to his target as though he'd hit him with an unarmed strike (non-lethal damage, unless you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, in which case you may choose to deal real damage), and both the attacker and his target are counted as grappling. Again though, if the attacker loses this opposed roll that is the end of this specific grapple attempt. Finally, assuming the grapple was successful, the attacker has the option to move into his target's space, as a free action move, albeit one that does provoke attacks of opportunity (check) from everyone who is in a position to do so, except the target being grappled. (This is because of the fact he is now part of a grapple. As a side note, because he is part of a grapple he has also lost his dex bonues to AC to everyone except the defender, and vice-versa)

So, it's now the "defender's" turn, what are his options? (Actually, at this point, since the grapple has started it doesn't matter who was the original attacker and who the defender. They are both now considered grappling, and both have exactly the same options available to them. This is why it's a good idea to be certain of the capabilities of who, or what, you're grappling, before you get involved in the melee.)
Well, most options that are available to a grappler require them to make an opposed grapple check* (check), and these include: Deal grapple damage (see note above); Draw a light weapon; Move (you and anyone else involved in the grapple) up to half your speed; Escape from the grapple (this can also be done using the Escape Artist skill opposed by a grapple check); Pin your opponent; Break a pin your opponent is holding on a seperate individual; And, use a light weapon your opponent is holding to attack him. In this case not only do you have to win the opposed grapple check* you also have to then make a normal attack roll (check) with a -4 penalty.
The actions that do not require an opposed grapple check* are: Activate a magic item that doesn't require spell completion; Attack your opponent with an in-hand light weapon (check), at a -4 penalty; Retrieve a spell component from your pouch; Cast a spell, though there are limits on the types of spell that can be cast, and it requires a successful concentration check (against DC 20+spell level) (check).

What was that about Pins? Well, they're basically a more severe form of the grapple, one in which one side has a definite advantage. The person holding the pin can do one of the following things (with the same checks as described above): Deal grapple damage; Move the grapple; Use your opponent's weapon against him. In addition, you could instead do one of the following: Disarm your pinned opponent (check), following the normal rules for a disarm, except he gets a +4 on his roll to resist you; Release your opponent. Neither of you is now considered to be grappling the other, but if there are additional individuals involved in grapples with either of you then that person is still considered to be involved in a grapple. Finally, the person holding the pin has the option to deny his opponent any opportunity to speak. If you are being pinned your options are even more limited. all you can do is attempt to break the pin, either by making an opposed grapple check* (check), or through use of the Escape Artist skill (check) opposed by the pinner's grapple check (check).

If you want to join an existing grapple the process above is followed, with the following exceptions: The defender doesn't get an attack of opportunity against you, and the initial melee touch attack automatically hits.

When an individual is being grappled by multiple opponents any attempt to escape from the grapple (see above) requires you to beat all of the opponent's rolls in the opposed grapple check*. All other actions are basically made against an individual, and follow the proceedures above.

*The opposed grapple check is a roll made by both (or more) individuals involved in the grapple. The roll is similar to a melee attack roll, and uses the formula: Base Attack Bonus + Strength Modifier + Size Modifier. The size modifiers move in steps of 4 per size difference, with medium sized individuals using 0, small ones using -4, large ones +4, and so on in both directions. One exception to this is the Freedom of Movement spell I mentioned earlier. If you are under the effect of this spell you automatically win an opposed grapple check made to resist being grappled, or the checks made to escape from a grapple of a pin. If you're the one attempting the grapple then you must still make the opposed roll as normal.

Damn. Sorry, this was a bit of a wall of text...but I hope it was of some help.

[deuxhero]

He is the one who asked about grappling rules...

Yeah, in general, avoiding grappling whenever possible, especially as a new player. You KNOW a subsystem is a mess when the entire system is based on "1d20+modifiers vs. Opponents defense" rolls and it requires THAT many rolls.

[Gavinfoxx]

I give this speech, or one like it, to all potential new D&D 3.5e groups, dm's, and players when I find a thread about someone new to the game on these forums.


"D&D 3.5e is a very...interesting game system. At it's heart, it is a game which started with several assumptions: that fantastically wealthy, violent hobo land pirates go underground to the homes of things that look different than them, kick down the doors to these homes, kill the inhabitants, and take their stuff. Then they go back to town, sell most of the stuff, keep the useful bits, buy things that help them go to newer and different places where things that look MORE different then they, kill them, take their stuff, et cetera. It is a game where the stalwart fighter stands in the front and swings his sword, the rogue looks for and disables traps, or perhaps sneaks around to stab bad things with a dagger, the Wizard stands in the back and blasts things, and the Cleric keeps all of them healed while doing this. This is the heart of the game because that was how the game was played in the past, because it was a competitive, team event played at tournaments where people wargame for points, and there is a single team which is the winner. Further, you might not know the people on your team, having just met them five minutes ago at a convention, and so everyone played a simple role that was easy to understand and pick up and go, and in the olde rules, was actually generally a fairly solid way to get through modules. This is also where the idea of an adversarial GM that is trying to kill the player characters comes from. Every assumption that is 'weird' or arbitrary in the game stems from things inherited from this idea regarding how the old games used to work.

However, that's not often how the game is *played* these days, and for the most part, we aren't interested in playing that particular legacy game with it. It has been quite some time since 3.5e books started coming out, and people have had lots of time to look at them and think about them and tinker with them and figure things out. They've come up with several interesting conclusions. Namely, that if you look at the toolset represented by all these books, you essentially have a fantastic array of lego pieces to make characters to tell any sort of fantasy story you want, because Wizards of the Coast tried to be inclusive of a huge variety of fantasy gaming styles in their writings. People have also figured out that there is a dramatic and huge variation in the power level of the 'lego pieces' -- that is the classes and options tied to them -- when you start doing things with them other than the old edition legacy assumptions. So given that, the question is this: what sort of story do you want to tell with your characters, and what power level and complexity level do you want in the rules? Do you want to be people altering the fabric of reality to fit their very whims, or the gritty soldier for whom death is a real possibility in any fight -- in other words, something lower power level like Lord of the Rings, or the wuxia swordsman who is somewhere in between? Any sort of Fantasy story is a possiblity, but you have to know what you want, first!

Of course, just because anything is possible, doesn't mean that there isn't something close to a consensus amongst experts as to what the system is best at. What they say is something along these lines: the system is best for fantastic characters, fantasy superheroes of some sort (but not silver age uber-superheroes though), doing crazy, incredible things to the world around them, things which are overtly superhuman and heroic. While 3.5e is capable of much lower power and grittier things, it really starts to shine when you accept the power level of 'everyone has superpowers of some sort', provided you make choices of the correct legos appropriate to that power level, especially because of, if you are attempting to actually simulate reality with the game rather than simulate certain types of stories, things get 'wonky'. Of course, if you want to use rules based on D&D 3.5e to simulate actual reality, there are third party products such as Codex Martialis which do this admirably.

Also, there is a reason we aren't playing 4th edition. The reason is this: Wizards of the Coast realized that D&D 3.5e was laughably, ridiculously unbalanced. However, in their quest to make something manageable, they have reduced the game to only a miniatures tactical combat system where the scope of the sorts of things the characters can do which the actual rules can cover is very, very limited. This is intentional on their part, and is maybe what they had to do to balance the game. Unfortunately, it does greatly limit the sorts of stories that can be easily told with the rules in the system, even if you know your way around it backwards and forwards. This is not the case with 3.5e -- if you know your way around it, you can make anything for any sort of Fantasy story.

Finally, I thought I should make a note about some of the continuations of 3.5e which you might have heard of, such as Pathfinder and it's lesser known cousin Trailblazer. Some folk may have claimed that these fix all of the balance problems in the game. This is not true; what they do is merely continue support for the game, though they do attempt to fix some balance problems that become issues for several groups, but they for the most part ignore the inherent power and versatility differences of the 'legos' themselves, though they have been gradually adding options that allow improvements in the capability of the lower performing classes, much like D&D 3.5e did in it's actual run. They do attempt to make changes so that everyone, especially those very low-optimization level players, has some interesting and fun things to do, and for the most part, they succeed in providing obvious for lower power gamers. However, you should note that there is at least ONE system which provides the breadth of possible abilities and feel of classes and customizability that 3.5e offers, and large parts of the 'feel' of 3.5e, while keeping balance intact between the classes. This system is Ruleofcool's Legend, and I encourage you to check it out."

[Urpriest]

2) I don't understand this LA buyoff system for templates. Let's say I wanted to create a 3rd level character. So I could create a commoner2 with a +1 LA template? Alternatively, in-game, if I were granted permission to apply a template, at third level I could apply it and pay an XP fine?


None of that has anything to do with LA buyoff by the way. As a new player, if you want to understand templates, LA, ECL, and all that, my Monster Handbook (link in sig) is a pretty good place to start.

[andecoco]

...

:smalleek:

I guess I won't be playing a grappler any time soon. I guess it's lovely that the system is detailed? Although I think a higher level of abstraction wouldn't detract from the experience at all... but I suppose I don't have the requisite experience to make such an assertion.

Wow, but at least I understand it now.

Another question: Are the Leadership feat and diplomacy skill as absurd as they look? I assume there has to be some mitigating factor to the power of both.

[Gavinfoxx]

Anyway, if you want to Grapple... look at this handbook:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870826/Black_Blood_Cultist_Handbook:_A_Grapplers_Manual

If you focus on grappling the right way, you can ignore whole segments of the issue of grapple complexity (what with Improved Grab and Savage Grapple and lots of natural attacks and similar things).

[VGLordR2]

Another question: Are the Leadership feat and diplomacy skill as absurd as they look? I assume there has to be some mitigating factor to the power of both.

Believe me, they are more absurd than you think. Just google the Jumplomancer.

[deuxhero]

Another question: Are the Leadership feat and diplomacy skill as absurd as they look? I assume there has to be some mitigating factor to the power of both.

You recognize them as broken as a new player? Congrats! You have more system mastery than WotC did when they work the core rule books.

[andecoco]

Jumplomancer.

Oh dear. I like the fact that D&D is so complex that rules can mesh and birth abominations.


You recognize them as broken as a new player? Congrats! You have more system mastery than WotC did when they work the core rule books.

I'll be honest; it's pretty self evident. At level 1, with the correct race, attribute score distribution, you can get an ability modifier of +5. Pumping your skill points into diplomacy nets you a +3. You will net an average of 18.5 on every diplomacy roll you make. At level 1. The DC's don't scale at all with level, and the only time you make an opposed check is, as noted:


In negotiations, participants roll opposed Diplomacy checks, and the winner gains the advantage. Opposed checks also resolve situations when two advocates or diplomats plead opposite cases in a hearing before a third party.

So, at level one, you have a decent chance of defusing a potentially dangerous situation of any difficulty, provided at least you have a common form of communication.

This is, of course, with my current knowledge of the game; i.e., I don't know any skill-boosting tricks at this stage yet.

Leadership is just flat out strong. I don't see how spending a feat to get an extra companion at 2 levels lower than you--and a bunch of other minions--is ever a "bad" decision to make. In fact, I'd assume that any powerful character build would make use of leadership for free "familiars".

[Gavinfoxx]

go browse www.d20srd.org, it is the expanded list of 'free' rules, and contains stuff not in the PHB/DMG/MM1, though not everything in the PHB/DMG/MM1 is in it.

[Eldest]

Oh dear. I like the fact that D&D is so complex that rules can mesh and birth abominations.



I'll be honest; it's pretty self evident. At level 1, with the correct race, attribute score distribution, you can get an ability modifier of +5. Pumping your skill points into diplomacy nets you a +3. You will net an average of 18.5 on every diplomacy roll you make. At level 1. The DC's don't scale at all with level, and the only time you make an opposed check is, as noted:



So, at level one, you have a decent chance of defusing a potentially dangerous situation of any difficulty, provided at least you have a common form of communication.

This is, of course, with my current knowledge of the game; i.e., I don't know any skill-boosting tricks at this stage yet.

Leadership is just flat out strong. I don't see how spending a feat to get an extra companion at 2 levels lower than you--and a bunch of other minions--is ever a "bad" decision to make. In fact, I'd assume that any powerful character build would make use of leadership for free "familiars".

You skipped taking the skill focus feat, and you can put four points into diplomacy. But you're right, it gets out of hand fast.

[Saintheart]

4) Crafting costs XP and gold. So it doesn't matter if there's requisite materials around, or if you need to travel to the appropriate vendor. You can literally craft things right there in the dungeon. Wat?

As others have noted, by the normal rules, no.

But - by the variant rules of the Craft Points system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/craftPoints.htm) - then the answer is "yes", where essentially you pull your magic item out of hammerspace by saying "Oh, hey, I've been working on this for a while."