Increasing a sorcerers spells known?

[Olfgar]

So is there anyway for a sorcerer to learn more spells? Im currently thinking up an idea for a dedicated arcane caster, and will be going Wizard or Sorc, and if there are ways to get a more decent amount of spells known i might go Sorc instead.

havent decided spell types ill feel like specializing in yet though.

[Larkas]

Knowstones, Dragon Magazine 333, pg. 93. :smallwink:

[Seffbasilisk]

There's a third-party feat IIRC, that applies your bonus spells at each level to spells known as well.

[Waker]

Extra Spell feat from CArc.

[StreamOfTheSky]

There were bloodline feats in dragon mag, iirc (I only knew of them because of crystalkeep having them) that gave you a pre-set spell for every level 1-9 as a bonus spell known, the spells fitting the bloodline's theme. Like the fire bloodline gives fire spells, the Penumbra bloodline gives shadow and darkness spells, etc... The only drawback was that in taking the bloodline feat, you forever lost the ability to learn "opposed spells" (and lost any you already had known!). So if you took the fire bloodline, you couldn't learn water spells, if you took penumbra, you couldn't learn spells w/ the light descriptor, and so forth.

[Pyromancer999]

While not spells, per say, dragonpacts from Dragon Magic give an increasingly wide range of SLAs as you go up in level for the sacrifice of a spell slot.

[Gemini Lupus]

There were bloodline feats in dragon mag, iirc (I only knew of them because of crystalkeep having them) that gave you a pre-set spell for every level 1-9 as a bonus spell known, the spells fitting the bloodline's theme. Like the fire bloodline gives fire spells, the Penumbra bloodline gives shadow and darkness spells, etc... The only drawback was that in taking the bloodline feat, you forever lost the ability to learn "opposed spells" (and lost any you already had known!). So if you took the fire bloodline, you couldn't learn water spells, if you took penumbra, you couldn't learn spells w/ the light descriptor, and so forth.

Those feats are also in Dragon Compendium, which is a bit easier to get a hold of.

On topic, what I did with all spontaneous casters, is I had them learn 3 spells every time they level up, as long as one of those spells is of the highest level they are capable of casting. It makes them a little more powerful, but a wizard with the collegiate wizard feat from Complete Arcane learns four spells per level and without it still has the capability to learn every spell on their list if they spec. it that way.

[Amoren]

The Dracolexi prestige class (from Races of the Dragon) gives you bonus spells in the form of any two language dependent spells, and adds three power word spells to your list of spells known one level earlier. They also get to freely extend or empower/widen their spells without adjusting casting time or using higher level spell slots, but can only use it once against each target. Pretty nice abilities, although it comes at a loss of a caster level.

[Namfuak]

There were bloodline feats in dragon mag, iirc (I only knew of them because of crystalkeep having them) that gave you a pre-set spell for every level 1-9 as a bonus spell known, the spells fitting the bloodline's theme. Like the fire bloodline gives fire spells, the Penumbra bloodline gives shadow and darkness spells, etc... The only drawback was that in taking the bloodline feat, you forever lost the ability to learn "opposed spells" (and lost any you already had known!). So if you took the fire bloodline, you couldn't learn water spells, if you took penumbra, you couldn't learn spells w/ the light descriptor, and so forth.

There are also bloodline feats in PHBII (Celestial and Infernal), a few of which grant extra spells known as well. If I recall correctly, you get protection from and circle against good/evil (opposite alignment as the bloodline), which can come in handy but are not quite handy enough that you would usually get them as a known spells. There is also a bloodline feat for a draconic bloodine around (Dragon Magic or Draconiminicon probably), but I don't remember if that grants spells.

[Deox]

Mother Cyst (Libris Mortis) gives some delicious options.

[moritheil]

Extra Spell feat from CArc.

What he said. Most other ways are too feat-intensive and are terribly restrictive, telling you exactly what spells you gain.

Deox is right to mention Mother Cyst, but it can be a hassle to use, and there are a lot of characters that wouldn't fit with it for RP reasons. Still, it's one of the few feats that actually does what it's designed to do without eating most of your feat slots.

One of the Dragon-themed books (Dragon Magic?) has an option for sorcerers to sacrifice a spell slot to dragons and get some lower level spell-like abilities; this can be good for picking up, say, Blur and Wind Wall without burning spells known slots on either. The options are preset and most of them are terrible, but a few are worthy.

[Fable Wright]

What he said. Most other ways are too feat-intensive and are terribly restrictive, telling you exactly what spells you gain.

Deox is right to mention Mother Cyst, but it can be a hassle to use, and there are a lot of characters that wouldn't fit with it for RP reasons. Still, it's one of the few feats that actually does what it's designed to do without eating most of your feat slots.

One of the Dragon-themed books (Dragon Magic?) has an option for sorcerers to sacrifice a spell slot to dragons and get some lower level spell-like abilities; this can be good for picking up, say, Blur and Wind Wall without burning spells known slots on either. The options are preset and most of them are terrible, but a few are worthy.
Actually, the point of Bloodlines and Cysts are not to use them for the spells on the list; it's for the purpose of getting the spells known, and then retraining them by using the Sorcerer retraining option built into the class. Shuffle away the spells you don't need, get ones you do in return. It's more or less Extra Spell 10 times for Mother Cyst, though it makes it difficult to retrain other spells.

Personally, I just like Mother Cyst for the actual benefit rather than what you get by slicing it up, but it really gives a lot of bonus spells known for your feat.

[moritheil]

Actually, the point of Bloodlines and Cysts are not to use them for the spells on the list; it's for the purpose of getting the spells known, and then retraining them by using the Sorcerer retraining option built into the class. Shuffle away the spells you don't need, get ones you do in return. It's more or less Extra Spell 10 times for Mother Cyst, though it makes it difficult to retrain other spells.

Personally, I just like Mother Cyst for the actual benefit rather than what you get by slicing it up, but it really gives a lot of bonus spells known for your feat.

Either way you still have an undead cyst buried in your body, which won't sit well with a lot of characters on RP terms. :smallwink:

I do agree that bloodlines get better if you retrain some of the more useless spells, but they are still more feat-intensive than is worth it, most of the time.

[ericgrau]

Runestaves, scrolls (especially for low level spells), a staff.

Generally you need to make sure to grab more general purpose spells as a sorcerer. Same as what a wizard would prepare for a day full of unknowns, but with the caveat that if you screw up you're hosed.

I'd avoid any method that requires significant resources for low return since you go from being weaker under specific circumstances (e.g., preparing ice spells for the red fire volcano of burny flameness) to always weaker.

[Lactantius]

ACF Complete Champion lets you take a domain by giving up 2 spells known.
So, you gain versatility and more more spells known with ECL 6+

[CigarPete]

Use the Pathfinder rules for Sorcerer and play a human.

[Larkas]

What he said. Most other ways are too feat-intensive and are terribly restrictive, telling you exactly what spells you gain.

While I agree with you that most other options are too restrictive and/or feat intensive, getting hold of a Knowstone is neither. It can be very expensive, of course, with 9th level spells' Knowstones costing a base 81,000gp (or 40,500gp if you can get a friendly Wizard to create it for you), but it is, in my humble opinion, the best choice if you need some low-level utility spell on your list but can't spare the spell known slot. A Blur Knowstone, for example, would cost a measly 4,000gp.

[Essence_of_War]

I like runestaves.

Try getting ones with lower level, long-term buffs on it. For example, one with Heart of Air/Water/Fire/Earth, it's an easy sell fluff-wise. If I've done my math right, such a staff should cost you only:
(5^2 * 400) + (4^2 * 200) + (3^2 * 200) + (2^2 * 200) = 15.8k gp

And it gives you 4x hrs/level buffs. If you have to expend any of them to get their rounds/level benefit (looking at YOU heart of earth!) you can always just whip out your runestaff out-of-combat.:smallsmile:

Edit:
Let me also add, I think you'd be hard pressed to find an easier sell, thematically speaking, than a runestaff of the 4 heart-of-X spells. They're begging to be on the "Runestaff of the 4-elements" or whatever :smalltongue:

[Madara]

Sandshaper from sandstorm is nice for the extra spell it gives you.

[gbprime]

Feats are the easiest way. The single best feat to take is a Bloodline feat from Dragon Magazine Compendium. It gives you NINE spells known (one of each level 1-9), but you must take the ones from their list and accept a minor limitation on what other spells you can pick up. A permissive DM might let you customize a Bloodline feat.

The second best feat to take is Extra Spell from Complete Arcane, as it at least gives you a 1-feat-for-1-spell exchange. The various Infernal, Celestial, and Draconic feat chains that grant you spells don't pay off 1 for 1 until you've sunk a lot of feats into the process, and even then you don't get to pick which spells you get.

If money is no object... Runestaves and Knowstones as previously mentioned. Your mileage may vary depending on your DM and how (s)he handles item availability.

Lastly are the prestige classes that give you extra spells. I list them last because they pretty much control how you build and flavor the character. From PrC's like Dracolexi (Races of the Dragon) that grant numerous bonus spells and Spell Like Abilities, to PrC's like Wild Soul (Complete Mage) which grant you access to more spontaneous abilities.

A note about Prestige Classes... do not overlook the ones that let you use your existing spells in new ways. This EFFECTIVELY gives you more spell power. A perfect example of this is Sanctified One of Kord (Complete Champion). It loses you a spell level, but allows you to select an ability that makes all your fire damage spells do untyped damage instead... so with it you need only a very few attack spells to harm all kinds of opponents.

[Karoht]

In Pathfinder there is the Favored Class option.
You basically get an additional spell known at every level, but it's a spell known at 1 spell level below your maximum. IE-If you can cast 3rd level spells, you get 1 second level spell.
Consider that you can also re-learn a spell known every time you level up, if you combine the two options and pick your spells carefully you can usually 'fix' any issues you're having with ease.

[Gavinfoxx]

Knowstones and Runestaves.

[Glimbur]

The Eberron Explorer's Handbook has Drake Helms. They give extra spells known.

[Alefiend]

In Pathfinder there is the Favored Class option.
You basically get an additional spell known at every level, but it's a spell known at 1 spell level below your maximum. IE-If you can cast 3rd level spells, you get 1 second level spell.
Consider that you can also re-learn a spell known every time you level up, if you combine the two options and pick your spells carefully you can usually 'fix' any issues you're having with ease.

There's also the Expanded Arcana feat, which isn't limited to spells one level below your max (unlike the favored class option you mention).

[Karoht]

There's also the Expanded Arcana feat, which isn't limited to spells one level below your max (unlike the favored class option you mention).
And the two together... ooooooh.
One feat and one optional(?) rule. Fighting together to give YOU more spells.
Like a pair of bro cops.

[137beth]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned mage of the arcane order. It does increase the casting time, but out of combat it effectively gives you access to every utility spell you need. Beyond that, the extra spell feat and other things already mentioned are the way to go.

[Orran]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned mage of the arcane order. It does increase the casting time, but out of combat it effectively gives you access to every utility spell you need. Beyond that, the extra spell feat and other things already mentioned are the way to go.

For entry as a sorcerer, there is the arcane preparation feat from complete arcane. Although with that and co-operative spell, it's quite feat intensive.

[Fineous Orlon]

Old-fashioned expansion of a Sorcerer's repertoire:

Get a rod, staff, or wand. No feats required. Great for utility stuff, and a staff uses your ability mod for DCs. I believe there is even one feat that lets you sub in your spell slots instead of its charges.

So a good question to ask is, "I want more spells known, but do I really just need more utility?"

Playing a wizard at the moment, and my Wand of IMS [individual mook suppression] keeps my spell slots open for important stuff. Goodbye crossbow-dependence, hello wand of Magic Missile, CL5.

[Karoht]

Buff spells tend to do well in Wand form anyway.
Resist Energy is both versatile and effective.
Protection from Energy tends to do better as a spell slot though, because it scales with CL.
Mage Armor from a wand isn't bad.
Haste on a wand isn't bad.
Shield on a wand isn't bad.
Heroism on a wand isn't bad.

The only downside is, wands are hard to afford for a while.

[Tyndmyr]

Sand Shaper and Arachnomancer both give you a pile of spells known at first level.

In addition, The Rainment of Four(MiC) gives you access to five iconic spells fairly inexpensively(magic missile, light, teleport, freedom of movement, and fireball).

[Alefiend]

"Just get yourself Item X" isn't always a viable approach. Sometimes you have to be versatile on your own.

[gbprime]

"Just get yourself Item X" isn't always a viable approach. Sometimes you have to be versatile on your own.

Totally seconded. :smallcool:

[Larkas]

"Just get yourself Item X" isn't always a viable approach. Sometimes you have to be versatile on your own.

Then you're better off being a Wizard :smallwink:

No, really, I don't mean to be rude, there are only so many ways you can be "versatile" as a Sorcerer :smallfrown: Sorcerer is all about raw power, while Wizard is more about versatility (AND just as much raw power... meh, you got the point). If you can spare the feat slot, go for it and get any of the nice feats that can get you new spells. For every other time, there is MasterCard are those many items to help you out :smallsmile:

[eggs]

A quick note on the CChamp Domain ACF mentioned earlier - it costs 9 spells known and grants 9 predetermined spells that can only be cast 1/day; it's probably the opposite of what the OP's after (unless the OP also has an unstated hunger for Domain abilities).

[Fineous Orlon]

"Just get yourself Item X" isn't always a viable approach. Sometimes you have to be versatile on your own.

You know what? I agree so much with that, that I am really glad that this thread has mentioned a few classes [sandshaper, dracolexi, etc] and feats [bloodline, extra spell, etc] that expand a sorcerer's repertoire, as well as knowstones, staves, wands, runestaves, including reasons why one might choose any particular one of those options.

Reading this thread has proven informative.

[Lactantius]

A quick note on the CChamp Domain ACF mentioned earlier - it costs 9 spells known and grants 9 predetermined spells that can only be cast 1/day; it's probably the opposite of what the OP's after (unless the OP also has an unstated hunger for Domain abilities).

Strongly disagree, see:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/244412-complete-champion-domain-access-class-feature-sorcerer.html

[killianh]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2777

that link should have a bunch of info for you, plus more in the comments

[Grim Reader]

A level of Sand Shaper adds 40-odd spells over your career. Most are quite good, and there is a great variety, direct damage, buffs, summons, utility etc. Some of the spells are of a lower level than the PHB versions.

The cost is that you don't advance spellcasting at level one. And that hurts for a Sorcerer!

Mage of the Arcane Order costs two feats, but it returns feats as you level up. It grants access to every spell in the PHB. Best thing a spontaneous caster can have with his or her clothes on.

Fiend-Blooded costs two feats as well I think, but you get to pick a bonus fire or necromancy spells of any list you want every other level. And some other goodies.

Wyrm Wizard costs you in advancement of spellcasting too. But it lets you pick spells of any list, so if you want stuff of the Trapsmith list to metamagic up the wazoo...or if you're a Duskblade who wants to full attack with Harm...


PS: Does anyone know of any PrC that advances wildshape and spellcasting but does not limit spellcasting to Druid or Divine casting?

[Larkas]

PS: Does anyone know of any PrC that advances wildshape and spellcasting but does not limit spellcasting to Druid or Divine casting?

Arcane Hierophant.

[eggs]

Strongly disagree, see:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/244412-complete-champion-domain-access-class-feature-sorcerer.html
I'm not sure what argument you're pointing at.

If it's the one that nonsensically confounds the multiple uses of the word "level," then I'm going to have to disagree:

The ACF entry explicitly addresses a sequence of spell levels and is addressing spells specifically in the phrase that limits further limitations of spells known.
The phrase "From now on, you know one less sorcerer spell that you can cast at each subsequent level" would be superfluous if it didn't indicate further spell loss.
To follow the argument I think you're indicating, the phrase "one less sorcerer spell" would both be incongruous with the two spells known that the ACF initially abandons, and would presumably immediately overrule one of the two explicit spells known costs - a procedure which is completely unreferenced and undirected.


And yes, this would mean that a Sorcerer with this ACF would only know any spells of the highest level slot available for about half its career.

[Talionis]

Actually, the point of Bloodlines and Cysts are not to use them for the spells on the list; it's for the purpose of getting the spells known, and then retraining them by using the Sorcerer retraining option built into the class. Shuffle away the spells you don't need, get ones you do in return. It's more or less Extra Spell 10 times for Mother Cyst, though it makes it difficult to retrain other spells.

Personally, I just like Mother Cyst for the actual benefit rather than what you get by slicing it up, but it really gives a lot of bonus spells known for your feat.

I heard both were very good with the Apprentice Feat (Spellcaster) from Dungeon Master's Guide 2 that allows you to trade in the bad spells for better spells. I believe one at each level... Its been a while since I read the exact wording and Apprentice Feat does a lot of things.

[gbprime]

I heard both were very good with the Apprentice Feat (Spellcaster) from Dungeon Master's Guide 2 that allows you to trade in the bad spells for better spells. I believe one at each level... Its been a while since I read the exact wording and Apprentice Feat does a lot of things.

The key to the Apprentice feat in this case is that it gives you one extra 1st level spell known and allows you to trade out your spells know at all levels, not just even levels. (It also adds +2 to spellcraft and gives you another knowledge skill and UMD as class skills.)

That's a whole lotta swapping out spells. One spell every even level is just fine even if you pick up a Bloodline feat or Mother Cyst. Now if you plan on picking up BOTH feats, then yes, Apprentice is a smart buy.

In that case, a human sorcerer could spend 3 feats (1st - Apprentice, Bloodline Feat, 3rd - Mother Cyst) and end up with +3 first level spells known and +2 spells known at all future levels. With Apprentice, you're trading out the Cyst spells as fast as you get them every even level, and you have plenty of spell trade-outs at the odd levels for any lame ones you get from your Bloodline Feat.

This sorcerer would never want for spell choice, even in a no-magic-shops campaign. I even see some built-in plot devices for this character, chosen as a living descendant of some powerful undead caster, protected by a mentor, and rebelling against the ancestor's dark plans by converting his necromantic heritage into some other power source...

[thorr-kan]

There are also bloodline feats in PHBII (Celestial and Infernal)

Sorcerous Heritage feats from PH2.

Draconic Heritage and Draconic Legacy from CompArc/Races of the Dragon.

Dragonblooded Sorcerer alternate class level from RotD. 7th, I think?

Feat intensive, but flavorful.

[Draz74]

"Just get yourself Item X" isn't always a viable approach. Sometimes you have to be versatile on your own.

You're right. So that totally means we shouldn't bother listing item-based options in a thread like this. :smalltongue:

[Doxkid]

Fiendish Familiar symbiote

[dextercorvia]

The key to the Apprentice feat in this case is that it gives you one extra 1st level spell known and allows you to trade out your spells know at all levels, not just even levels. (It also adds +2 to spellcraft and gives you another knowledge skill and UMD as class skills.)


I'm not sure if you were saying this, but the Apprentice feat allows you to trade out at every level in addition to the normal swaps available to a sorcerer. That is 29 total swaps. Also there is no benefit to keeping a feat like Mother Cyst or a Bloodline feat after you have swapped out all of the spells. So it is possible to spend 3 feats on Apprentice, Mother Cyst, and a Bloodline, but then to Chaos Shuffle one Bloodline into another when you have swapped all of those spells. You can also swap Mother Cyst, and the second Bloodline for something more useful later on.

That would give you 3 extra spells at all levels except 1st and 2nd, which would get 4 extra spells -- at the eventual cost of 1 feat and some gold. That is way more efficient than taking Extra Spell. Having UMD as a class skill is a nice side benefit for the apprentice feat, and is something that Sorcerers should have had all along.

[Thurbane]

Knowstones (Dragon 333)
Drake Helms (Eberron Explorer's Handbook)
Runestaves (MIC)
Robe of Mysterious Conjuration (MIC)
Raiment of the Four set (MIC)
Bloodline feats (Dragon Compendium)
Extra Spell feat (Complete Arcane)
Celestial Sorcerer Lore feat (PHB 2)
Mother Cyst feat (Libris Mortis)
Sandshaper PrC (Frostburn)
Fiend Blooded PrC (Heroes of Horror)
Wild Soul PrC (Complete Mage)
Dracolexi PrC (Races of the Dragon)
Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane)
Wyrm Wizard PrC (Dragon Magic)
Frost Mage PrC (Frostburn)


Question about the Fiendish Familar symbiont (Fiend Folio): it says when attached to a Bard or Sorcerer it "can serve as a source of spell knowledge, as described in the DMG". By my reading, this means it does not actually grant any spells known, but serves as a source to acquire new spells know if the DM uses the option to make characters justify where their new spells come from each level. Is this correct?

[gbprime]

Also there is no benefit to keeping a feat like Mother Cyst or a Bloodline feat after you have swapped out all of the spells. So it is possible to spend 3 feats on Apprentice, Mother Cyst, and a Bloodline, but then to Chaos Shuffle one Bloodline into another when you have swapped all of those spells. You can also swap Mother Cyst, and the second Bloodline for something more useful later on.

That sounds over the line to me. You took those feats so they give you 9 extra spells known each. You may have swapped out the spells themselves, but you still have the feat for the +9 known spells. Doesn't seem right to also get rid of the feat too.

But hey, whatever you can get by your DM I guess. Mine would say no to that, as would I.

[dextercorvia]

That sounds over the line to me. You took those feats so they give you 9 extra spells known each. You may have swapped out the spells themselves, but you still have the feat for the +9 known spells. Doesn't seem right to also get rid of the feat too.

But hey, whatever you can get by your DM I guess. Mine would say no to that, as would I.

Over the line hardly means it shouldn't be mentioned.

[Icewraith]

Item Familiar: Runestaff

Remember, you can enhance your item familiar as if you had the relevant craft feat. Only in the most low magic of low magic campaigns will you not be able to have your trusty runestaff familiar immediately at hand. You can fulfill the crafting requirements for many of the cheaper levels of spells with just one scroll. Also, if you have a bit of time, you can craft a 1/day spell onto the staff then use the staff 1/day for the spell requirement to upgrade it to 2 or 3/day if you feel you need more of that spell.

Grab a few levels of Mage of the Arcane Order. Given time, there's no spell you can't eventually have immediately at hand, using your caster level and spell dcs.

[Talionis]

That sounds over the line to me. You took those feats so they give you 9 extra spells known each. You may have swapped out the spells themselves, but you still have the feat for the +9 known spells. Doesn't seem right to also get rid of the feat too.

But hey, whatever you can get by your DM I guess. Mine would say no to that, as would I.

None of that gives you more spells per day, and you still don't have the utter utility of a Wizard. But each DM needs to decide what he will put up with and how much power level they want their PC s to have.