Feat Fix: Toughness (D&D 3.5)

[Sypher667]

I think we can all agree that Toughness as presented in the PHB is underwhelming to say the least. I propose the following:

Toughness [General]
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You gain 3 hit points or 1/2 your HD, which ever is higher. If your HD changes, recalculate the bonus HP.

Unlike standard toughness, this feat would not be able to be taken more than once. Thoughts?

[NeoSeraphi]

It's weaker than the existing feat from Complete Warrior, Improved Toughness (+1 HP per HD). So...I don't really like it.

Perhaps you'd like the way Pathfinder does it instead? This is the PF version:

Toughness
Benefit: You gain 3 hit points. For every hit dice or class level you possess beyond your third, you gain one additional hit point. Whenever you gain another hit dice or class level, you gain one additional hit point.

[Sypher667]

It's weaker than the existing feat from Complete Warrior, Improved Toughness (+1 HP per HD). So...I don't really like it.

Perhaps you'd like the way Pathfinder does it instead? This is the PF version:

Toughness
Benefit: You gain 3 hit points. For every hit dice or class level you possess beyond your third, you gain one additional hit point. Whenever you gain another hit dice or class level, you gain one additional hit point.

I had considered making the feat like that, but I didn't want to be better than imp tough, I wanted to make the original feat itself worth taking, at least a bit. the idea being that if a prestige class or similar required it, you didn't feel cheated.

Also, with this feat change, I would require Improved Toughness to have this a prerequisite, which always confused me with the original anyway.

[Othesemo]

I had considered making the feat like that, but I didn't want to be better than imp tough, I wanted to make the original feat itself worth taking, at least a bit. the idea being that if a prestige class or similar required it, you didn't feel cheated.

Also, with this feat change, I would require Improved Toughness to have this a prerequisite, which always confused me with the original anyway.

To be honest, I would never willingly take the feat that you propose here. Before sixth level (which is when you normally would take toughness), it's exactly the same. After sixth level, you get an incredibly small bonus every other level. Meaning that at level 20, you would have a whopping... ten extra health. That's less useful than a 4,000 gp magic item, and it takes up one of the only seven feat slots that you'll ever get.

The only time I've had to allow toughness into a game, I've just combined it with improved toughness into one feat- you gain 3+HD HP, scaling. Even then, it was markedly less useful than most other feats.

[Jane_Smith]

Yeah, i make toughness 3 + hit dice in my games, and make improved toughness + hit dice. Can only take each once, but 2/7 of those precious feat slots = 43 hp by 20. Which is far more on par with that 4k-8k gp item and actually worth taking.

[Deepbluediver]

Since we're all chiming in, I'll add mine, which I believe is the simplest version yet.


Toughness [General]
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You gain 2 hit points per HD, including for any additional HD you get after taking this feat.
Special: You may take this feat more than once.


I've never tried to mess around with improved toughness, which I recalled as being much more complicated, though I would prefer some sort of progression to stacking toughness feats.

One thing that I've considered doing was altering it so that you gained more or less HP depending on what your HD where. What's tough for a wizard might be very different than what's tough for a barbarian.
For example, you gain 1 HP for every d4 or d6, 2 HP for every d8 or d10, and 3 HP for every d12.

Edit: since it seemed popular
Toughness [General]
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You gain additional HP for every Hit Dice that you possess. Gain 1 HP for every d4 or d6, 2 HP for every d8 or d10, and 3 HP for every d12. You gain this benefit for every HD you add after taking this feat as well.
Special: You may take this feat more than once.

[NeoSeraphi]

One thing that I've considered doing was altering it so that you gained more or less HP depending on what your HD where. What's tough for a wizard might be very different than what's tough for a barbarian.
For example, you gain 1 HP for every d4 or d6, 2 HP for every d8 or d10, and 3 HP for every d12.

That's a great idea!

[Noctis Vigil]

One thing that I've considered doing was altering it so that you gained more or less HP depending on what your HD where. What's tough for a wizard might be very different than what's tough for a barbarian.
For example, you gain 1 HP for every d4 or d6, 2 HP for every d8 or d10, and 3 HP for every d12.

I like this as well.

[Yitzi]

You'll still want something that fulfills the original purpose, for high-HD "brute" monsters to waste their feats on.

[Deepbluediver]

You'll still want something that fulfills the original purpose, for high-HD "brute" monsters to waste their feats on.

You mean something other than just taking Toughness repeatedly, but that is less appealing to PCs?

Then in keeping with the prior suggestion, I offer this:


Improved Toughness [General]
Prerequisites: Toughness, Constitution 20+, Large size or greater
Benefit: You gain additional HP for every large HD that you have. Gain 4 HP for every d8, 5 HP for every d10, and 6 HP for every d12.
Special: You may take this feat more than once.


I don't have a lot of experience with high-level games, so I'm not really sure what the balance point for something like this would be. Also, I know this keeps it simple, but does Toughness always just have to relate to HP? What do you think about cutting the HP bonus and let it start adding a natural armor or natural damage/spell resistance bonus instead?

[NeoSeraphi]

Improved Toughness [General]
Prerequisites: Toughness, Constitution 20+, Large size or greater
Benefit: You gain additional HP for every large HD that you have. Gain 4 HP for every d8, 5 HP for every d10, and 6 HP for every d12.
Special: You may take this feat more than once.


I don't have a lot of experience with high-level games, so I'm not really sure what the balance point for something like this would be. Also, I know this keeps it simple, but does Toughness always just have to relate to HP? What do you think about cutting the HP bonus and let it start adding a natural armor or natural damage/spell resistance bonus instead?

Slight problem, only dragons can get the d12 benefit from this feat, since undead don't have a Constitution score. (If we're just talking about monstrous creatures and Racial Hit Dice, anyway).

[Seerow]

You'll still want something that fulfills the original purpose, for high-HD "brute" monsters to waste their feats on.

Honestly, if monsters got as much as 3 hp per hit die from toughness, those monsters could easily be designed with just 1 HD per CR instead of 2-4. Which makes it infinitely easier to balance them, and means you don't need so many crappy filler feats.

[Techwarrior]

Slight problem, only dragons can get the d12 benefit from this feat, since undead don't have a Constitution score. (If we're just talking about monstrous creatures and Racial Hit Dice, anyway).

I dunno, I think that the whole 'dragons get special extra bonuses' is pretty neat. I like it. I'll probably fold both of them into my next campaign.

[Yitzi]

Honestly, if monsters got as much as 3 hp per hit die from toughness, those monsters could easily be designed with just 1 HD per CR instead of 2-4.

That hurts their BAB and saves, though...the BAB probably could use the downgrade for most such monsters, but the low saves could be an issue.

[Deepbluediver]

That hurts their BAB and saves, though...the BAB probably could use the downgrade for most such monsters, but the low saves could be an issue.

Ooh ooh! I know the answer to this one!

Let's jazz up Greater Fortitude, Lighting Reflexes, and Iron Will, and then you can waste the extra feats you don't need for Toughness any more on them! :smallbiggrin:

[Seerow]

That hurts their BAB and saves, though...the BAB probably could use the downgrade for most such monsters, but the low saves could be an issue.

Low Saves are already an issue for anyone who has HD = character level (see: All player characters), because even a good save only progresses as fast as save DCs, and you're almost guaranteed to have a poor stat on 2 out of 3 saves. PCs get some items to help this, but it isn't fixed by a long shot.

If you're worried about saving throws, the answer is to fix the saving throw mechanic, not to give enemies twice as many hit dice.

[Yitzi]

Low Saves are already an issue for anyone who has HD = character level (see: All player characters), because even a good save only progresses as fast as save DCs, and you're almost guaranteed to have a poor stat on 2 out of 3 saves. PCs get some items to help this, but it isn't fixed by a long shot.

If you're worried about saving throws, the answer is to fix the saving throw mechanic, not to give enemies twice as many hit dice.

That makes sense...although firstly PCs get not only items but also spells like Death Ward, PfE, and Mind Blank (either personally or from party members), and secondly rather than (or in addition to) fixing the saving throw mechanic it might make more sense to keep key ability scores of SAD characters somewhat lower.

[Veklim]

Ooh ooh! I know the answer to this one!

Let's jazz up Greater Fortitude, Lighting Reflexes, and Iron Will, and then you can waste the extra feats you don't need for Toughness any more on them! :smallbiggrin:

Kinda did this already, just here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223440). Maybe you'll like something..?

[danzibr]

If you were to make Toughness up your hit die, say a Wizard going from d4 to d6, et cetera, what would a d12 go up to? A d20?

[Ivellius]

The World of Warcraft d20 system ups a d12 to a d12+2. It seems like a decent solution without making the jump to the 20-sider.

[Veklim]

2D6 maybe, or 2D8 perhaps... I would use multiple dice though, certainly. I've seen this mentioned before actually, seem to remember a problem cropping up but can't remember what it was...will post if my memory resumes functionality!

[Deepbluediver]

I find myself wishing that D&D had something in between the d12 and d20 occasionally when I'm working on homebrew.
I know you can buy 14 and 16 sided dice; if you wanted to play a game that used those denominations more than once it might be worth it to just shell out 10 bucks for a handful. Or you could just use a computerized dice-program.


Kinda did this already, just here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223440). Maybe you'll like something..?
I think that's kind of an answer to a different problem. While your double-feats look workable from the basic 3.5 standpoint, the original problem was that high-HD enemies had lots of extra feats available that needed to be used up, not that the feats where to weak (although they are).

It's partly a matter of personal taste, and partly dependent on what you are trying to fix, but I prefer my feats to be more single-purpose, but able to scale better.
For example, when I fix Iron Will, I do something like this:
Iron Will [General]
Benefit: You gain a bonus on you Will saving throws; the bonus is dependent on your ECL (for PC's), or CR (for NPC's and monsters).
{table=head]ECL/CR|Bonus
<1|+1
1-4|+2
5-9|+3
10-14|+4
15-19|+5
20+|+6[/table]

[Yitzi]

If you were to make Toughness up your hit die, say a Wizard going from d4 to d6, et cetera, what would a d12 go up to? A d20?

Make it work like weapon size increase. So d4 becomes d6, d6 becomes d8, d8 becomes 2d6, d10 becomes 2d8, and d12 becomes 3d6. CON still applies per level rather than per die*, though.

The real problem with that is that it could require you to reroll already-rolled dice, which could mean that Toughness ends up actually decreasing your hit points (if the first was high rolls and the second was low) or that your hit point rolls determine whether you want to take it.



*I have been playing around with the idea of CON applying per die with more dice for different classes, but that would be a replacement for die size: if you want high CON significance then d4 stays as 1d4, d6 or d8 becomes "alternate 1d4 and 2d4", and d10 or d12 becomes 2d4, and for lower CON significance you get half as many d8s.

[Noctis Vigil]

It's partly a matter of personal taste, and partly dependent on what you are trying to fix, but I prefer my feats to be more single-purpose, but able to scale better.
For example, when I fix Iron Will, I do something like this:
Iron Will [General]
Benefit: You gain a bonus on you Will saving throws; the bonus is dependent on your ECL (for PC's), or CR (for NPC's and monsters).
{table=head]ECL/CR|Bonus
<1|+1
1-4|+2
5-9|+3
10-14|+4
15-19|+5
20+|+6[/table]

And now, a shameless plug to my fixes of these feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243185). This leads me to wonder though: how many horridly useless feats are there that could be fixed easily? I can think of a bunch of them, but how many are taken regularly for prerequisites and such?

[Deepbluediver]

And now, a shameless plug to my fixes of these feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243185). This leads me to wonder though: how many horridly useless feats are there that could be fixed easily? I can think of a bunch of them, but how many are taken regularly for prerequisites and such?
Great minds think alike and so on and so forth. :smallwink:

I'm less familiar with the non-core supplements to 3.5, but generally I think that they tend to do better with feats, since they where designed with the intent of giving players more power and versatility. The exceptions tend to be feats that are part of a specific chain, but you don't take them unless you are also planning on taking X, Y and Z, and the higher power from the better end-feats can balance out the lackluster quality of the first few.

Since non-core material rarely refers to other non-core material, I think that most of the underpowered prerequisite feats are the classics: the save-bonus feats, the skill bonus feats, and some of the more bland fighter bonus feats.

The biggest issue with many of these is that they don't scale, so once you start to pile on the levels (and magic items) the bonuses they give have a much smaller relative effect. By making them scale, your Iron Will feat gives you a noticeable larger Will save at every level than some one without it.

I'd give a similar (or identical) progression to the skill-bonus feats. After that it starts to get a little more complicated; "simple" is a relative term if I ever heard one.

For Dodge, I increased the bonus from +1 to +2, but then rather than increase the bonus I let it be used against more than one opponent, so that (for example) a high level rogue isn't immune to dragon attacks, but it helps against the horde of ankle-biters goblins nipping at his heels.
For mobility I left it as is, but added a 5 ft. per round speed bonus.

Shot-on-the-run was just folded into Spring Attack.

I've never actually written up improvements for Deflect/Snatch arrows, but my thoughts have usually been along the lines of: make it one feat with higher prerquisites, and remove the "throw back at enemy" part in exchange for letting you stop more projectiles by sacrificing Attacks of Opportunity.


Feats that need fixing, but probably don't fall under "simple" heading include:

Combat-style feat chains (TWF, THF, etc)- everyones got their own ideas for how these should work out depending on what splatbooks they like, what other homebrew they've accumulated, and how feat-starved a particular melee class is. IMO, Seerow has the best/simplest version for use with the core classes as written.
Metamagic feats- some are too expensive, some are too cheap, and metamagic reducers screw everything up. I've never been good at using metamagic, but I'd be willing to tackle this one in a round-table type setting, where other posters agreed to help and we could debate the merits of various changes.
Some of the splat book feats- it varries by book, but there are a few that get really complicated, particularly when interacting with other feats. In general, if I read the full feat description twice and I'm still not confident I know how it works, there's to much text or to many exceptions to the rules.

[Noctis Vigil]

Feats that need fixing, but probably don't fall under "simple" heading include:

Combat-style feat chains (TWF, THF, etc)- everyones got their own ideas for how these should work out depending on what splatbooks they like, what other homebrew they've accumulated, and how feat-starved a particular melee class is. IMO, Seerow has the best/simplest version for use with the core classes as written.
Metamagic feats- some are too expensive, some are too cheap, and metamagic reducers screw everything up. I've never been good at using metamagic, but I'd be willing to tackle this one in a round-table type setting, where other posters agreed to help and we could debate the merits of various changes.
Some of the splat book feats- it varries by book, but there are a few that get really complicated, particularly when interacting with other feats. In general, if I read the full feat description twice and I'm still not confident I know how it works, they're to much text or to many exceptions to the rules.


You should actually write those feat fixes in your last post up in standard 3.5 formatting somewhere (like here).

As for what still needs fixing, I agree whole-heartedly about feat chains; they're incredibly inefficient, and the investment for just one style means the only one who will ever master one is a Fighter, let alone mastering two. Most TWF feats could be condensed into three or four scaling feats, for example, freeing up a good half dozen feats at least.

I'd be willing to join you at that table to discuss metamagic as well. Several of the feats are priced poorly, IMHO.

And yes, splatbook feats vary wildly, although off the top of my head the only horribly overcomplicated one that needs a fix (in more than just grammar anyways) is Vow of Poverty. Did you have any others in mind?

[Veklim]

This metamagic round table sounds like an interesting proposition indeed...

At some point I fully intend to go through every book I have and note down all the stupid, underpowered, superfluous, needlessly complex and plain awful feats I see. Then I will have a hitlist, and one hell of a big posting spree to begin!

Scaling is key, I think, in this issue, and perhaps also key to making feat chains work better. I had a thought, long ago, about making feat chains which essentially create sets of scaling, related abilities. Much as if you had taken a tactical feat, split in into 3 parts and grown them each like a precious flower...one feat gives you a unique ability. Two feats expand on existant ability and add a new one. Third feat finishes off first ability scaling, advances the second and adds a 3rd new one. You can take them in any order, it just decides which ability gets scaled the most. It's still a work in progress!

[Deepbluediver]

You should actually write those feat fixes in your last post up in standard 3.5 formatting somewhere (like here).
I was trying to save space, and most of them ARE written up, just scattered about my various class-fixes. If you really need them, message me and I'll send you a link.

Deflect/Snatch Arrows was the only one I hadn't really done yet, so I'll give that a try. One thing that I've been doing for some non-passive bonus feats is have them give additional bonuses if you have other commonly taken feats, or if you meet certain requirements. It's sort-of-but-not-quite version of scaling.

Deflect Projectiles [General]
You can react so quickly to ranged attacks that you are capable of slapping aside bolts and arrows, either with your weapons or even your bare hands.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike OR Base Attack Bonus +11

Benefit: Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.

If you also have the Combat Reflexes feat, and you have not used all of your available Attacks of Opportunity yet this round, you may deflect additional projectiles. Each projectile you deflect in this manner decreases the number of AoO you can make before the start of your next turn by one.

If you have at least one hand free (holding nothing), and Dexterity 17+, you may catch the projectile instead of deflecting them.

If you have Strength 25+, you may use this feat to block projectiles up to one size category smaller than yourself fired from siege weaponry.

Special: A fighter may select Deflect Projectiles as one of his fighter bonus feats.
I've tried to take the best aspects of both parent feats, while putting enough limits in place that it doesn't act OP at lower levels. I've removed the "throw back immediately" portion in favor of improved defensive capability, and added a few other touches of my own. The alternative prerequisite is something I've been experimenting with; while a monk might actually spend time praticing catching arrows in flight, a fighter develops similar abilities over the course of dozens or hundreds of battles.
Let me know what you think.


And yes, splatbook feats vary wildly, although off the top of my head the only horribly overcomplicated one that needs a fix (in more than just grammar anyways) is Vow of Poverty. Did you have any others in mind?

Nothing specific off the top of my head, though if I had to start somewhere it would be with the tactical feats in Complete Warrior.

VoP seems like a case of fluff dictating mechanics, even if you can get past the flaws of it's most basic premise; no matter how awesome your slingshot is, it will never be as good as the guy with the flamethrower. IMO, it's not the kind of thing that can be worked out in a single feat; it should either be one option at the end of some sort of chain, or more realisticly, expanded into a prestige class.



At some point I fully intend to go through every book I have and note down all the stupid, underpowered, superfluous, needlessly complex and plain awful feats I see. Then I will have a hitlist, and one hell of a big posting spree to begin!
I know what a daunting task tackling something like that can be; if you want help, message me with a few at a time that are giving you trouble or you just don't want to work on and I'll do what I can.



I'd be willing to join you at that table to discuss metamagic as well. Several of the feats are priced poorly, IMHO.

This metamagic round table sounds like an interesting proposition indeed...
I'm gonna be very busy for the next couple of days, but if I get something like this going next week I'll send both of you (and anyone else who expresses interest) an invite.

[Bozo5084]

Yeah, i make toughness 3 + hit dice in my games, and make improved toughness + hit dice. Can only take each once, but 2/7 of those precious feat slots = 43 hp by 20. Which is far more on par with that 4k-8k gp item and actually worth taking.

Some where there is a List of 3 feats you take in row. they are toughness, you know what that does. Improved Toughness and we know what thAT do0es, but if you add Contimnued toughness, you get your Con Bonus (Basically you get 2x it, each level) I would link the site, but i cant find it at the momemt.

[Magikeeper]

@ Deflect Projectiles [General] -

There is something like this already (an air elemental graft). I've played in two lengthy campaigns with it, one where only one player had it and in a far more high-op game where it was common (among both PCs and NPCs).

It is the bane of any ranged PC's existence. It's a windwall that can't be dispelled, and anyone can use it. This feat version could easily be grabbed by most monsters as well, far more easily than some obscure graft (in most settings, anyway). It's true that deflect arrows can be rather lackluster - since most D&D archery is volley - but making it stronger via more blocks/round effectively nerfs ranged warriors through the floor.

Also, if the siege weaponry thing comes up it'll probably be against other homebrew that was balanced against the assumption that siege weaponry gets by most auto-deflects (well, you could have a campaign heavy in giants / ballista / hulking hurlers, I suppose...).

-----------------

Anyway, I'd suggest either changing how it works or making it much more feat-intensive to take.

Random example:


Deflect Projectiles [General]
You can react so quickly to ranged attacks that you are capable of slapping aside bolts and arrows, either with your weapons or even your bare hands.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike OR Base Attack Bonus +11

Benefit: Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.

While taking the total defense action you may instead deflect a number of ranged weapons per round equal to 1 + your dexterity modifier (minimum 1). Furthermore, if you have a hand free while taking the total defense action you may choose to catch the weapon(s) instead of deflecting them. Any thrown weapon(s) caught this way may be thrown back at the original attacker as an immediate free action or kept.

^Keeps the ability to ramp up your blocking, but not passively - the archers are at least serving as a distraction.
("Immediate Free Action" taken from Snatch Arrows wording. >.>)

[redwizard007]

*Snip*
While taking the total defense action you may instead deflect a number of ranged weapons per round equal to 1 + your dexterity modifier (minimum 1). Furthermore, if you have a hand free while taking the total defense action you may choose to catch the weapon(s) instead of deflecting them. Any thrown weapon(s) caught this way may be thrown back at the original attacker as an immediate free action or kept.

Just want to point out that this would be capable of granting Dex mod + 1 free attacks. I don't believe that was the intent, although it could be a nice scaling ability if delayed in some way. I absolutely love the idea of this feat gaining from a total defense.