Natural weapons and TWF?

[Venger]

okay, so, let's say that I have two claws and a bite and that I'd like to take TWF.

the normal full attack routine is bite and 2 claws (iteratives going onto the bite as the primary) and then the claws functioning as secondaries each at -5 from the full BA value. so the way I understand it, I get however many attacks I am normally entitled to from my BA, and then 2 more with the claws at BA-5. is this correct?

TWF then would let me use my left/right hands as primary/offhand weapons presumably for the claws lessening the penalties to -2/-2. this stacks with the penalty from them being a secondary natural attack fo -7/-7, but I figure multiattack is something of a feat tax for characters who qualify, so let's say -4/-4.

TWFing gives me one additional attack with my offhand weapon (which in this case is my offhand) per round, so this means I have as many bites as BA gives me then 2 claws, then 1 more claw, right? and then if imp TWF/greater TWF can be added later, then they'll give me extras with the offhand?

if this works differently than I have outlined, please correct me.

[Daftendirekt]

Claw/Claw/Bite = You don't take Two-Weapon Fighting. Because natural attacks are not weapons.

You take Multiattack. It makes your secondary attack(s) at only a -2 instead of a -5. Also, with natural attacks, you do not get iteratives. So, the claw/claw/bite is all you ever get.

So, let's say you have a +5 bonus to attacks, and your bite is your primary. A full attack would be thus:

Bite +5, two claws +0 (without Multiattack)
Bite +5, two claws +3 (with Multiattack)

[Amoren]

The only way I think you can do this is by taking the rapid strike feat line from Draconimicon AND TWF. Rapid Strike, requiring BAB 10, Dex 9, and some monstrous type (monstrous humanoid, dragon, golem, etc), allows you to take iterative attacks on your primary claw/claw, wing/wing, slam/slam, etc. It only gives you ONE attack for each iterative (Improved Rapid Strike gives you the -10 attack, not sure if it also gives you the -15 one though). You then take TWF and gain a secondary attack on that, I think.

Honestly, it's just a lot easier to carry a pair of daggers or shortswords in your claws than it is to try and maximize them, I've found.

[Venger]

The only way I think you can do this is by taking the rapid strike feat line from Draconimicon AND TWF. Rapid Strike, requiring BAB 10, Dex 9, and some monstrous type (monstrous humanoid, dragon, golem, etc), allows you to take iterative attacks on your primary claw/claw, wing/wing, slam/slam, etc. It only gives you ONE attack for each iterative (Improved Rapid Strike gives you the -10 attack, not sure if it also gives you the -15 one though). You then take TWF and gain a secondary attack on that, I think.

Honestly, it's just a lot easier to carry a pair of daggers or shortswords in your claws than it is to try and maximize them, I've found.

with you so far on rapid strike. it does indeed give you 1 extra attack on a pair of natural weapons (claws in this case) does multiattack apply to this?

how does TWF fit in? I'm not really sure.

right, I'm aware natural attacks aren't as good as weapons, but I'm trying to go for quantity here.

I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to use a natural attack to get my iteratives where do I put my iteratives then? do I need to carry a weapon around to channel my iteratives? am I thus unable to actually use my bite and both claws when making a full attack after level 6, only being able to go sword w/iteratives, bite, claw (claw with rapidstrike) ?

[Daftendirekt]

If you do a full attack with natural weapons, that's it. You don't do those and then take iteratives with a weapon you happen to be holding. You either do your natural attacks OR you do a full attack with iteratives with whatever manufactured weapon you happen to be holding.

[Venger]

If you do a full attack with natural weapons, that's it. You don't do those and then take iteratives with a weapon you happen to be holding. You either do your natural attacks OR you do a full attack with iteratives with whatever manufactured weapon you happen to be holding.

so, I make all my iteratives with a weapon. then do I get bite, claw, both, or all three, since that's how i've seen natural weapons described (monster can claw as a secondary natural attack)?

[Ashtagon]

TWF doesn't interact well with natural attacks. Multiattack (MA) does a better job.

First, the only way you can gain iterative attacks is from a weapon (as defined in the equipment chapter).

If you have claw attacks, each weapon you carry takes away a claw attack.

You could do weapon/claw/bite. The claw and bite would both count as secondary attacks, but could benefit from MA (but not TWF). The troll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm) is an example of a creature that canonically can do this.

You could do weapon/weapon/bite. The second weapon and the bite count as secondary attacks. The second weapon can benefit from TWF; the bite can benefit from MA.

If you were a creature with one or two slam attacks, any weapon takes up all your slam attacks (implied by the angel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm) and titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) statblocks).

[Venger]

TWF doesn't interact well with natural attacks. Multiattack (MA) does a better job.

First, the only way you can gain iterative attacks is from a weapon (as defined in the equipment chapter).

If you have claw attacks, each weapon you carry takes away a claw attack.

You could do weapon/claw/bite. The claw and bite would both count as secondary attacks, but could benefit from MA (but not TWF). The troll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm) is an example of a creature that canonically can do this.

You could do weapon/weapon/bite. The second weapon and the bite count as secondary attacks. The second weapon can benefit from TWF; the bite can benefit from MA.

If you were a creature with one or two slam attacks, any weapon takes up all your slam attacks (implied by the angel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm) and titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) statblocks).

yep. pretty sure I'm grabbing MA. +3 to nat attacks is too good to turn down.

I must've missed that bit since most characters use weapons. thanks for that.

so, weapon/claw/bite would work with claw getting an extra attack from TWF (at -2 for being light) and then the bite benefitting from MA. is that right?

[Ashtagon]

yep. pretty sure I'm grabbing MA. +3 to nat attacks is too good to turn down.

I must've missed that bit since most characters use weapons. thanks for that.

so, weapon/claw/bite would work with claw getting an extra attack from TWF (at -2 for being light) and then the bite benefiting from MA. is that right?

You don't need TWF to do a weapon/claw/bite routine (assuming your natural are claw/claw/bite). That's an advantage of having natural weapons. The claw would be BAB-5, or BAB-2 with MA.

I'll need to do further reading to check the penalties on the weapon in the weapon/claw/bite routine.

[Venger]

You don't need TWF to do a weapon/claw/bite routine (assuming your natural are claw/claw/bite). That's an advantage of having natural weapons. The claw would be BAB-5, or BAB-2 with MA.

I'll need to do further reading to check the penalties on the weapon in the weapon/claw/bite routine.

no, i meant TWF to get an extra claw. great, I'd appreciate that

[Amoren]

Probably not, I'm really unsure as to how natural weapons interact with TWF, but its the only way (perhaps with DM permission/fiat) to get secondary attacks for a pair of weapons with rapid strike.

Of course, with a weapon/claw, you could probably get rapid strike to get secondary attacks with your claw. Since you're making weapon attacks with your other hand, you shouldn't have to worry about TWF penalties or needing TWF at all.

[Venger]

Probably not, I'm really unsure as to how natural weapons interact with TWF, but its the only way (perhaps with DM permission/fiat) to get secondary attacks for a pair of weapons with rapid strike.

Of course, with a weapon/claw, you could probably get rapid strike to get secondary attacks with your claw. Since you're making weapon attacks with your other hand, you shouldn't have to worry about TWF penalties or needing TWF at all.

i don't think I follow

[Togo]

You only ever get the normal attack progression with natural weapons - in this case claw/claw/bite. You can get an extra attack from haste, or similar, but TWF and a high BAB won't help you.

What you can do is use a normal weapon, get normal iterative attacks, and then use your natural weapons as secondary attacks - rules are in Monster Manual p299. In your case you'd get just a bite if you were using both hands, a bite and a claw if you were using one hand, and both claws and bite if you were fighting with no hands, generally only true of a monk's unarmed attacks.

[Venger]

You only ever get the normal attack progression with natural weapons - in this case claw/claw/bite. You can get an extra attack from haste, or similar, but TWF and a high BAB won't help you.

What you can do is use a normal weapon, get normal iterative attacks, and then use your natural weapons as secondary attacks - rules are in Monster Manual p299. In your case you'd get just a bite if you were using both hands, a bite and a claw if you were using one hand, and both claws and bite if you were fighting with no hands, generally only true of a monk's unarmed attacks.


While a humanoid fighting with two weapons takes a –2 penalty
(or worse) on its primary attack, a monster fighting with a handheld
weapon and a natural weapon at the same times does not
take this penalty—the natural weapon is a secondary attack, and
that’s all.

well, this is just great then! I don't even need TWF at all. this way, I get weapon iteratives, a claw, and a bite at -2 w/MA, and then rapidstrike gives me another claw at the same -5 TWF would've, so I do get iteratives, bite and 2 claws. thanks, I wasn't sure how that worked.

what do you mean about a monk? that they would make their full attack routine with their fists and would have bite/2claw all free for 3 secondary natural attacks?

[Daftendirekt]

{{scrubbed}}

[Ashtagon]

{{scrubbed}}

You might want to tell that to the person who wrote the SRD entry for the troll, since they've obviously been doing it wrong then.

[ThiagoMartell]

{{scrubbed}}
Sorry, but you are wrong.
You can make your full iterative attack routine with manufactured weapons than use your natural weapons as secondary attack (-5 to hit, 1/2 Str modifier to damage).


{{scrubbed}}
Well, it seems you have explained it incorrectly, then.

[gbprime]

Togo hit it on the head.

Let's say you have a BAB of +6 and natural weapons. Without any feats or numbers getting in the way, you can either claw+6/claw+6/bite+1 OR you can sword+6/sword+1.

With two weapon fighting, you can add subtract two to hit and add another attack to your weapon routine (sword+4/claw+4/sword -1) but you cannot add another claw attack to your natural attacks, because natural attacks do not progress as BAB rises.

The only way to boost yourself to claw/claw/claw/bite is to use Haste or something like Robilar's Gambit.

[Frog Dragon]

{{scrubbed}}
The secondary/primary natural weapon is not quite so set in stone as that.


Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

This indicates that when you are using manufactured weapons, any natural attacks you use in your full attack routine become secondary natural attacks.

[Keld Denar]

Miniguide! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0)

gbprime, that is also not correct.

Taking your +6 BAB example on a creature with claw/claw/bite with claws being primary, like a Trogolodyte:


No weapons:
Claw +6/ Claw +6/ Bite +1
Primary Primary Secondary

Sword in one hand:
Sword +6/ Sword+1/ Claw +1/Bite +1
Mainhand Mainhand Secondary Secondary (all natural weapons automatically shift to secondary natural attacks in the presence of a weapon that makes iterative attacks)

Sword in both hands (assume kist TWFing feat):
Sword +4/ Sword +4/ Sword -1/ Bite +1
Mainhand Offhand Mainhand Secondary

Multiattack would give +3 to hit with all attacks marked "Secondary". TWFing penalties do NOT apply to natural attacks. Unlike similar abilities like Rapid Shot and Flurry of Blows, TWFing penalties ONLY apply to the weapons used to TWF (mainhand takes penalty X, offhand takes penalty Y, no mention of any other penalties).

Its really not that hard to figure out natural attacks. Simply make all iterative attacks (if applicable), then add on any natural attacks that don't come from limbs occupied by the iterative attacks. If you are holding a sword, you can't claw, and if your mouth is full, you can't bite, etc. If you don't make iterative attacks, you have a primary natural weapon and everything else is secondary. If you do make a iterative attacks, all of your natural weapons are secondary, regardless of whether they are normally primary or not. That's it!