Ring of True Seeing dilemma?

[coineineagh]

I'm just picturing a future set of events where Tarquin can see through a prepared ambush because of his Ring of True Seeing. But now I'm wondering; what would he do in such a case?

He could guarantee that his sons survived the first encounter by being on the frontline himself (and making sure Thog wasn't. "I don't work with loose cannons like that"). But now he promised Malack there would be no more goofing around.
It seems he really cares about Elan, so will he find some way to signal to Elan that they must cancel the ambush? Will he forfeit his tactical advantage, allowing the Linear Guild to walk into the ambush? Will he convince LG to take another route? Or is his promise to Malack most important, meaning he will capitalise on the advantage despite the risk to his son?

[Unisus]

As we have no indication that the ambush will be concealed behind an illusion, i don't see much of a problem here - the RoTS does not give you the ability to see around corners as far as i remember, it just sees through disguises.

[Roland Itiative]

I don't think Roy is really going to rely on illusions for this ambush (he only told them to "hide where he tells them to", no special order for Elan to cast illusions, or anything), so the Ring of True Seeing would be a moot point. Now, it might come into play depending on what spell Durkon has in mind, but Roy's strategy is not depending on that either.

[ClockShock]

If it was going to be a problem however. I imagine Tarquin's promise to Malack
will hold most important. He's genre-savvy, but that suggests that whatever happens he'll get his climatic showdown one way or another, and there's no need to service drama as probability might (see: Comic 584 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html))

Also he seemed pretty sincere when Malack confronted him. Malack is a key part of Tarquin's ongoing plan after all.

[Forikroder]

I'm just picturing a future set of events where Tarquin can see through a prepared ambush because of his Ring of True Seeing. But now I'm wondering; what would he do in such a case?

He could guarantee that his sons survived the first encounter by being on the frontline himself (and making sure Thog wasn't. "I don't work with loose cannons like that"). But now he promised Malack there would be no more goofing around.
It seems he really cares about Elan, so will he find some way to signal to Elan that they must cancel the ambush? Will he forfeit his tactical advantage, allowing the Linear Guild to walk into the ambush? Will he convince LG to take another route? Or is his promise to Malack most important, meaning he will capitalise on the advantage despite the risk to his son?

assuming he brought his ring of true seeing

assuming the order uses completely magic concealment

assuming they hide in a spot Tarquin looks

assuming Tarquin makes a spot check that exceeds the orders hide check

assuming tarquin isnt distracted

assuming all that, Tarquin points them out and the Melee begins because if he doesnt its highly likely the other 5 members of his team will decide Tarquin has become to sentimental with age and being warmblooded and human and all and will decide to cut him out to prevent future losses

Tarquin has a knife to his throat in the way his success on the continent relys on the other 5, no single person in the party is in "control" or is non-replaceable Malack made it perfectly clear what hes going to do to Tarquin if Tarquin doesnt put on his bussiness face

[coineineagh]

assuming he brought his ring of true seeing

assuming the order uses completely magic concealment

assuming they hide in a spot Tarquin looks

assuming Tarquin makes a spot check that exceeds the orders hide check

assuming tarquin isnt distracted


Those assumptions aren't so far fetched. The ring served him very well in the recent past, and he's going to the illusionist's gate. Not to mention the irony behind Penelope helping out against the Draketooths...
Durkon has an abominable Move Silently & Hide penalty. If it's not concealment, he'll try to disguise himself. And I doubt Tarquin got into his position of power by not looking for details & paying attention. Look how he almost figured out what was going on with OotS & LG before he even spoke with Nale. He could have easily let Elan trip on his words and reveal everything, but he was confident he'd be able to find out without using Elan that way...

One thing that I didn't consider: True Seeing can detect illusions, but it doesn't necessarily reveal true identity. Durkon detected an illusion on "Thog's" armour, but couldn't recognize Tarquin's suit beneath it. Perhaps the Order will actually find out about Tarquin's ring, while Tarquin is under the impression that he just detected one of the Draketooth illusions... I can't wait to find out!:smallbiggrin:

[Forikroder]

Those assumptions aren't so far fetched. The ring served him very well in the recent past, and he's going to the illusionist's gate. Not to mention the irony behind Penelope helping out against the Draketooths...
Durkon has an abominable Move Silently & Hide penalty. If it's not concealment, he'll try to disguise himself. And I doubt Tarquin got into his position of power by not looking for details & paying attention. Look how he almost figured out what was going on with OotS & LG before he even spoke with Nale. He could have easily let Elan trip on his words and reveal everything, but he was confident he'd be able to find out without using Elan that way...

One thing that I didn't consider: True Seeing can detect illusions, but it doesn't necessarily reveal true identity. Durkon detected an illusion on "Thog's" armour, but couldn't recognize Tarquin's suit beneath it. Perhaps the Order will actually find out about Tarquin's ring, while Tarquin is under the impression that he just detected one of the Draketooth illusions... I can't wait to find out!:smallbiggrin:

his move silently may be terrible, but theyll be in position long before the LG is in ear shot

while it is extremely likely he has his ring its still unlikely for them to detect the ambush

they know Nale knows about Girard so assuming there opponent isnt chaincasting trueseeing is jsut ridiculous

[Roland Itiative]

One thing that I didn't consider: True Seeing can detect illusions, but it doesn't necessarily reveal true identity. Durkon detected an illusion on "Thog's" armour, but couldn't recognize Tarquin's suit beneath it. Perhaps the Order will actually find out about Tarquin's ring, while Tarquin is under the impression that he just detected one of the Draketooth illusions... I can't wait to find out!:smallbiggrin:
According to the RAW, True Seeing should simply show him the true form of the armour. Which might not be the form we're used to seeing (as Tarquin said, he changes flags often, and with them the armour's colour, at the very least).

[Kish]

Not to mention the irony behind Penelope helping out against the Draketooths...
Why would that be ironic? She has more reason to hate them than anyone else we've heard of so far.

[coineineagh]

Why would that be ironic?

Just because. (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/irony)

[Peelee]

Just because. (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/irony)

Hey, The Oatmeal! I love quoting that. Especially parts like "Not Ironic: "It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife" - Alanis Morissette's "Ironic"

Why isn't it ironic? It's just an unfortunate scenario; there's no reversal of expectations."

Hey, that's kind of like how Penelope had reason for hating the Draketooths, so her helping out against them would in no way be a reversal of expectations and thus not ironic! Cool!

And yes, I am ignoring the end of that comic, because it wasn't ironic.

[coineineagh]

Hey, that's kind of like how Penelope had reason for hating the Draketooths, so her helping out against them would in no way be a reversal of expectations and thus not ironic!

It would be so easy to debate that. With The Oatmeal quotes:smallbiggrin:.
But I'd be undercutting my own point. That was the intent, I assume.
This fish won't bite:smalltongue:

[Conuly]

Hey, that's kind of like how Penelope had reason for hating the Draketooths, so her helping out against them would in no way be a reversal of expectations and thus not ironic! Cool!

Wouldn't you hate the family that raised their son to kidnap his baby with nary an indication of this huge custody dispute that was coming up?

[coineineagh]

Hey, that's kind of like how Penelope had reason for hating the Draketooths, so her helping out against them would in no way be a reversal of expectations and thus not ironic! Cool!

OK, I can't help myself... This isn't even close to the subject of the irony.
Even clarifying the subject counts as debating, so I know I took the bait...:smallannoyed:

THE IRONY:
Draketooth Clan stole Penelope's child, that which was most dear to her. Penelope appeared powerless to find them or do anything afterwards. They were cruel, selfish, and took away what mattered most to her. She even died; it doesn't get more powerless than that.

The entire Draketooth clan, arrogant in its power bubble, was killed as a result of its own actions. By only recruiting family, they could be killed by the Familicide spell. If they hadn't engaged in their particular type of cruelty, they would not have had the weakness.

Powerless, dead Penelope, had unwittingly left behind a magic item in the possession of somebody intending to do exactly what the Draketooth clan set out to avoid in the first place: Endanger the Gate. In an unexpected reversal, the Draketooths are now powerless, looking down from the afterlife as 'evildoers' approach what is most important to them, intending to take control of it, but with the very real danger of destroying it.

The Draketooths had hoped to take what Penelope held dear by a deliberate act of selfishness and cruelty, while Penelope is in fact passively (helping to) do the same to them by an act of kindness (gift).

Nale, LG & Tarquin wouldn't even be involved if they hadn't known Penelope, and if she hadn't been wronged by a Draketooth.

There is more, but it's already longwinded enough.:smallsigh: There are so many layers of irony in the story, I'm surprised you'd even debate it.
Rich couldn't have made it more obvious; he'd have to put "this is ironic" under every panel to make it more obvious.

Re-reading my post, I think I get what was the cause of the misunderstanding:
Not to mention the irony behind Penelope helping out against the Draketooths...
Reading my statement literally, you are right, it's not ironic for her to be helping out. But I said "the irony behind", not "the irony of". There's a 5-paragraph difference. Read above.

[Kish]

So, by your reasoning, it will be ironic when Roy destroys Xykon solely because Xykon did not expect anyone to be able to avenge Fyron.

[coineineagh]

So, by your reasoning, it will be ironic when Roy destroys Xykon solely because Xykon did not expect anyone to be able to avenge Fyron.

Maybe it's a weak form of dramatic irony, if I read the Oatmeal correctly: "An event occurs whose significance the audience understands, but the characters do not". I guess Xykon doesn't understand the significance of killing Fyron. I'm not sure really.
I have a sudden urge to eat fried foods, stargaze & ride jet-skis....

[Morquard]

Nale, LG & Tarquin wouldn't even be involved if they hadn't known Penelope, and if she hadn't been wronged by a Draketooth.

Why wouldn't they?
Tarquin doesn't go after the draketooth to avenge his dead wife or anything. He goes because he thinks he can take control of a super powerful artefact that will imortalize his name. Kinda the same reason Xykon is after it.

[Forikroder]

Powerless, dead Penelope, had unwittingly left behind a magic item in the possession of somebody intending to do exactly what the Draketooth clan set out to avoid in the first place: Endanger the Gate. In an unexpected reversal, the Draketooths are now powerless, looking down from the afterlife as 'evildoers' approach what is most important to them, intending to take control of it, but with the very real danger of destroying it.

thats not ironic penelope did nothing in her life to try and defend the gate and was looking for adventurers to find the draketooths, the ring helping find the draketooths (which it will have nothing to do with) is not ironic nor is her death or the draketooths having a relationship with penelope at all cause irony

them stealing Penelopes child makes people think theyll face some sort of retribution especially since she was in such a unique situation to actually do something, what is happening is exactly what someone would expect to happen

not even the draketooth's ultimate demise caused by the system they made to remain safe can be considered ironic since you would expect people who dont trust anyone, treats everyone as an enemy and goes as far as leaving a trap for past friends to meet a horrible end, there safety precautions completely ignore the possibilty of them being rendered unable to continue what there doing with no back up plan which there now paying for so far everythings pretty much made sense



Why wouldn't they?
Tarquin doesn't go after the draketooth to avenge his dead wife or anything. He goes because he thinks he can take control of a super powerful artefact that will imortalize his name. Kinda the same reason Xykon is after it.

well it would take alot longer for Nale and the order to figure out where the gate actually is, but since Xykon knows exactly where the gate is anyway wether they involved Penelope or not they still would ahve been familicided and Xykon would still be about to knock on there door therefore there involvement with Penelope only helped them by helping the order find them which is sorta ironic since youd expect Penelope to only bring ruin on them but instead became there one chance to keep the gate safe

[irenicObserver]

I don't think it'll come up. The Order doesn't use illusions often, and aren't likely to given its track record. It'd be far-reaching to assume that because it wasn't explicitly stated, they're not using them, but since Elan is the only one that really has any prepared and they have terrible effectiveness it's not likely for it to play in their ambush.

And hey a debate on irony, tangentially related to the subject at hand and ironically (:smallwink:) enough brought up by the guy that passively wants to avoid that digression.

But on a more meta subject, why couldn't this be in the main comic discussion? :smallconfused:

[coineineagh]

And hey a debate on irony, tangentially related to the subject at hand and ironically (:smallwink:) enough brought up by the guy that passively wants to avoid that digression.

If you mean using the word irony, yes, I did invite the debate. Because naturally, the word is so controversial, it goes without saying that using it will cause a commotion. I brought it upon myself:smallfrown:.

I'm off to do something constructive on other forums. Enjoy the irony debate on this derailed thread.

[Kish]

If you mean using the word irony, yes, I did invite the debate. Because naturally, the word is so controversial,
If by that you mean people claim things are "ironic" all the time, with all sorts of meanings: Amusing...Poetic...Unfortunate...

Then yes.

I doubt the debate will continue without you, you appear to comprise one entire side in it.

[coineineagh]

I doubt the debate will continue without you, you appear to comprise one entire side in it.

:smallconfused:baiting? ... no further comment.

[137beth]

Those assumptions aren't so far fetched. The ring served him very well in the recent past, and he's going to the illusionist's gate. Not to mention the irony behind Penelope helping out against the Draketooths...

...That is no reason to expect the OOTS to use only magical concealment:smallconfused:


Durkon has an abominable Move Silently & Hide penalty. If it's not concealment, he'll try to disguise himself. And I doubt Tarquin got into his position of power by not looking for details & paying attention. Look how he almost figured out what was going on with OotS & LG before he even spoke with Nale. He could have easily let Elan trip on his words and reveal everything, but he was confident he'd be able to find out without using Elan that way...
That isn't all that fine of a detail to notice, it was pretty obvious that they were a team, as everyone but Haley did a horrible job hiding it.

[orrion]

OK, I can't help myself... This isn't even close to the subject of the irony.
Even clarifying the subject counts as debating, so I know I took the bait...:smallannoyed:

THE IRONY:
Draketooth Clan stole Penelope's child, that which was most dear to her. Penelope appeared powerless to find them or do anything afterwards. They were cruel, selfish, and took away what mattered most to her. She even died; it doesn't get more powerless than that.

The entire Draketooth clan, arrogant in its power bubble, was killed as a result of its own actions. By only recruiting family, they could be killed by the Familicide spell. If they hadn't engaged in their particular type of cruelty, they would not have had the weakness.

Powerless, dead Penelope, had unwittingly left behind a magic item in the possession of somebody intending to do exactly what the Draketooth clan set out to avoid in the first place: Endanger the Gate. In an unexpected reversal, the Draketooths are now powerless, looking down from the afterlife as 'evildoers' approach what is most important to them, intending to take control of it, but with the very real danger of destroying it.

The Draketooths had hoped to take what Penelope held dear by a deliberate act of selfishness and cruelty, while Penelope is in fact passively (helping to) do the same to them by an act of kindness (gift).

Nale, LG & Tarquin wouldn't even be involved if they hadn't known Penelope, and if she hadn't been wronged by a Draketooth.

There is more, but it's already longwinded enough.:smallsigh: There are so many layers of irony in the story, I'm surprised you'd even debate it.
Rich couldn't have made it more obvious; he'd have to put "this is ironic" under every panel to make it more obvious.

Re-reading my post, I think I get what was the cause of the misunderstanding:
Reading my statement literally, you are right, it's not ironic for her to be helping out. But I said "the irony behind", not "the irony of". There's a 5-paragraph difference. Read above.

I wouldn't count most of those as irony. Especially the second one. The Draketooth clan would be dead either way from Familicide. Now, it's maybe mild situational irony that the gate is now undefended, but their deaths aren't ironic at all.

Also, Nale would be involved anyway. He was involved from way before this. He made the decision to go after one of the remaining gates after escaping from Azure City.

How do you know the Draketooths are looking down from above? If they were, they would have known it was Durkon attempting a Ressurection and for what reason.

[irenicObserver]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Forikroder]

{{Scrubbed}}

i hate how people say "a thread has been derailed" if your talking to a friend about your weekened and they start talking about something your story reminded them of, or some story involving someone you met that weekend do you say "woa dude your totally derailing this conversation were talking about my weekend"

a conversation or debate cannot be derailed because it is not on rails, a conversation is like a river it flows wherever it feels like flowing either come along for the ride and get out and walk

[coineineagh]

...That is no reason to expect the OOTS to use only magical concealment
Well, OotS already noted that the hallway is riddled with easy-to-detect traps, which might be dangerous if concealed with the right illusion...


Dude slow your roll, this thread isn't completely derailed yet. You didn't even bother to respond to my on-topic contribution. That isn't model OP behavior :smallannoyed:
Since we don't know what Durkon prepared before entering the canyon, your assumption that there can be no illusions in play is just an assumption. The reason I didn't respond to your on-topic comment, was because it was followed up by:

brought up by the guy that passively wants to avoid that digression.
which isn't even right. Using a word does not constitute starting a discussion.
This:

Why would that be ironic?
does.


a conversation or debate cannot be derailed because it is not on rails, a conversation is like a river it flows wherever it feels like flowing either come along for the ride and get out and walk
I started the thread because I wanted to discuss a topic, not talk about the weekend with my friend. It's not a valid comparison. The figurative rails are what is considered on-topic. By your reasoning, you should also call out irenicObserver for using the term on-topic, since a conversation (=thread) just flows where it flows. But I know you won't do that.

I ruffled a board veteran's feathers by using a painfully fitting link earlier. I apologize for the strong language in it. His question just reminded me of the cartoon, and I didn't consider how negatively it would come across.

I understand that you are all sticking up for a respected member of the forum, but I don't appreciate being singled out. Please stop figuring out unique angles to establish that I'm being unreasonable.:smallannoyed:

I hope you'll all accept my apology, and just let it be.

[Kish]

Um, fellow? If I'm the "board veteran" you mean, nothing I said was a response to anything at that link. If Peelee is the "board veteran" you mean, he can speak for himself, but I think he was still addressing you, not the author of that site.

[Forikroder]

I started the thread because I wanted to discuss a topic, not talk about the weekend with my friend. It's not a valid comparison. The figurative rails are what is considered on-topic. By your reasoning, you should also call out irenicObserver for using the term on-topic, since a conversation (=thread) just flows where it flows. But I know you won't do that.

unless you pay the giant to own this thread, it is not yours, its a public forum in which anyone is allowed to come in and post or discuss about whatever they want to as long as it doesnt break any of the forum rules

you have no right nor control of any sort over the thread, being the OP does not give you any privelige or special rights nor any say as to what is or is not allowed to be talked about in this thread

this thread could turn into a discussion about comparing the OoTS to my little pony and it would not be "off topic" or "de-railed" it would have jsut found a new topic

for the record, i dont actually mind the use of the term off topic or on topic as long as its used right, as a way to interupt a conversation and talk about something else

also for the record, i was not specifically calling you out, in fact i didnt even quote you i jsut saw the term derailing being used and decided to take some time to point out how stupid a term i thought it was


I hope you'll all accept my apology, and just let it be.

there was an apology hidden in there? all i saw was you wining about how everyone is picking on you

[irenicObserver]

I concur that the OP is getting rather defensive, and possibly under a misconception. I do not remember jumping to anyones defense, I was just pointing out the humor of wanting to avoid a discussion you brought up. You neglected to elaborate past, "I was reminded of the Oatmeal when I inadverdently initiated a debate on irony". Stop putting the blame on Kish, it takes two to tango.

I disagree with the person above me. This is a discussion not a conversation, this is not only on rails but is the reason digression is both a word and a thing. That is why threads can be locked after being answered or derailed.

In all, let us agree to disagree as this tangent is a tumor on the topic at hand.
Look, I'm not ruling out the Order using illusions on the traps, but that is something you neglected to mention. A point you failed to bring up in your initial post that is brought up arbitrarily. I was under the impression that you were referring to the Order hiding themselves under an illusion.

In your OP you mention how Tarquin would react to them hiding, not whether or not traps would be hidden. And on that note would it really be wise to engage in battle in a hallway of traps?

I would also like to point out more for my sake than yours is that I found the OP in general rather vague. I had to decipher what premise you were arguing.

[Forikroder]

I disagree with the person above me. This is a discussion not a conversation, this is not only on rails but is the reason digression is both a word and a thing. That is why threads can be locked after being answered or derailed.

doesnt matter what word you choose to label it with the point remains the same

[coineineagh]

I concur that the OP is getting rather defensive, and possibly under a misconception. I do not remember jumping to anyones defense, I was just pointing out the humor of wanting to avoid a discussion you brought up. You neglected to elaborate past, "I was reminded of the Oatmeal when I inadverdently initiated a debate on irony". Stop putting the blame on Kish, it takes two to tango.

I disagree with the person above me. This is a discussion not a conversation, this is not only on rails but is the reason digression is both a word and a thing. That is why threads can be locked after being answered or derailed.

In all, let us agree to disagree as this tangent is a tumor on the topic at hand.
Look, I'm not ruling out the Order using illusions on the traps, but that is something you neglected to mention. A point you failed to bring up in your initial post that is brought up arbitrarily. I was under the impression that you were referring to the Order hiding themselves under an illusion.

In your OP you mention how Tarquin would react to them hiding, not whether or not traps would be hidden. And on that note would it really be wise to engage in battle in a hallway of traps?

I would also like to point out more for my sake than yours is that I found the OP in general rather vague. I had to decipher what premise you were arguing.
Well, it just struck me that Tarquin has a ring which may bear significance to the upcoming encounter. I don't know how it will unfold any more than you. You're right that I didn't mention the traps in my OP; it was a thought that struck me in my last post. But the premise remains the same; that Tarquin will be able to detect the Order's illusion, and be faced with a dilemma (or not).
You don't need to tell me my OP was vague. The whole commotion was caused by my sentence, assuming way too much story as given: "Not to mention the irony behind Penelope helping out against the Draketooths."

Um, fellow? If I'm the "board veteran" you mean, nothing I said was a response to anything at that link. If Peelee is the "board veteran" you mean, he can speak for himself, but I think he was still addressing you, not the author of that site.
I just wanted to make clear that it was an attempt at humour. I just failed to realise how rude the language in the link would come across. For that I apologize. I've used Oatmeal links in threads before, but it never ends well. The wittiness is lost behind the foul language.:smalleek:

unless you pay the giant to own this thread, it is not yours, its a public forum in which anyone is allowed to come in and post or discuss about whatever they want to as long as it doesnt break any of the forum rules

you have no right nor control of any sort over the thread, being the OP does not give you any privelige or special rights nor any say as to what is or is not allowed to be talked about in this thread

also for the record, i was not specifically calling you out, in fact i didnt even quote you i jsut saw the term derailing being used and decided to take some time to point out how stupid a term i thought it was
I don't know how to respond to that. I never claimed to deny anybody's rights. The thread was simply an invitation to open discussion, in which I did start the initial subject. Threads can flow over into related subjects, so of course I understand what you meant. But from the Ring of True Seeing to whether a misread, oversimplified comment is ironic or not, is what I'd call a derailment. You have every right to feel that the word derailment is inappropriate, just as I have the right to use it if I see fit. Unless you pay the Giant to own this thread.:smallwink:

there was an apology hidden in there?
Yes, it was hidden behind a cunning illusion.:smalltongue: But let me help you find it:

I apologize for the strong language in it. His question just reminded me of the cartoon, and I didn't consider how negatively it would come across.
Did you also spot the one in panel 10 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html)?

all i saw was you wining about how everyone is picking on you
All you chose to see.:smallsigh: That's an attitude best left for a different kind of Playground. Apologizing is not a sign of weakness. According to Sabine, it's reasonable, adult behaviour.

[Kish]

I don't think Sabine said anything about apologizing for something someone else did.

However, the relevance of your apologies for the language at The Oatmeal website aside, you did eventually answer my question (when Peelee re-asked it), though I wonder when the topic switched from Tarquin's actions against the Order to Tarquin's actions against the late Draketooths. If you want to discuss the possibilities of Tarquin's Ring of True Seeing sabotaging the Order's ambush, I would say, as others have, that it's unlikely the Order will be so dependent on magical illusions that that will happen; they rarely use illusions, and when they have, they've been cast by either Elan (and Roy will not rely on Elan unless he has no choice) or Vaarsuvius (currently lying unconscious in a pit trap), not Durkon. I'll also say that I doubt very much it would mean a dilemma for Tarquin if he did; either he plans to betray the Linear Guild at the first opportunity and would do so (unlikely), or he plans to attack the Order as he has claimed and would immediately inform the others of what he saw.

[coineineagh]

Now I just realized that the Ring of True Seeing might in fact be more of a liability than a blessing. The Gate was defended by illusions before, but most will have faded already.

For an illusionist clan, the greatest danger to their safety would be anybody able to use True Seeing, so it stands to reason that they will have prepared something against that. I'm thinking of inactive, permanent runes left behind all over the place (like the one in the false desert location), intended to activate when True Seeing is used in their proximity.

Durkon did have it active already, but maybe the runes are only located deeper in the pyramid.

Perhaps the OotS will figure this out when Durkon casts True Seeing again, while the LG will remain hampered.

[Peelee]

I ruffled a board veteran's feathers by using a painfully fitting link earlier. I apologize for the strong language in it. His question just reminded me of the cartoon, and I didn't consider how negatively it would come across.

I understand that you are all sticking up for a respected member of the forum, but I don't appreciate being singled out. Please stop figuring out unique angles to establish that I'm being unreasonable.:smallannoyed:

Not to argue for the sake of arguing, but speaking solely for myself, I was not standing up for anyone (Kish obviously being the veteran in question here). I agreed with a point he made, and offered my own take on it. I have no problem debating him when I think he's wrong (for example, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13389869#post13389869)). That I happen to agree with him more often than not just speaks that we see things similarly a lot.

Again, speaking only for myself, I made my assertion, you rebutted, and failed to convince me. I didn't think I was going to convince you of my point of view on the matter, so I simply stepped out. If it felt like I was ganging up on you, I'm sorry.

As for original point, I don't think the Order will use illusions when the temple they are in stands as a monument to failed illusions.

[irenicObserver]

I will remain unconvinced simply because the Order does not do illusions often, their effectiveness dissuading them.

Since Tarquin is not likely to betray the group and he is just as unlikely to outright kill Elan in cold blood, I suggest the situation will not arise that the Ring will become anything akin to a Chekhov's Gun(that's the implication I am getting from your assertion).

Also, I will give you this piece of advice. Be prepared for percieved "gang-ups"; some people will agree with you and some will not. Be mentally or emotionally ready to remain civil while arguing against and/or with just about any number of people that frequent this board. Debaters always thoroughly research and prepare their arguments before presenting them.

[coineineagh]

I'm just picturing a future set of events where Tarquin can see through a prepared ambush because of his Ring of True Seeing. But now I'm wondering; what would he do in such a case?
I appear to have been correct, in part. Durkon appears to have been concealed with some sore of illusion. We know he can't move without his armour making audible ruckus, so he lay in wait. Tarquin did see through it, but not in time to be of any help. If anything, it set him on high alert, in a perfect position to catch the arrow intended to distract everyone.

Will he forfeit his tactical advantage, allowing the Linear Guild to walk into the ambush?
Stop! A trap! [no walking blindly into it then]
When directly asked about what he sees: "I can just feel it."
[here, he deliberately evades the question, avoiding an opportunity to capture the concealed Durkon before he can do any 'Harm']

Or is his promise to Malack most important, meaning he will capitalise on the advantage despite the risk to his son?
He was talking to Malack at the moment it seems he spotted Durkon up ahead. But he was already rushing forward when talking about the trap, so perhaps Malack didn't even hear the rest. Malack is out of the way now, so there is little chance of him figuring out Tarquin has been 'goofing around' again.

Malack did say he wanted to deal with the dwarf himself. But Tarquin will have a hard time explaining that capturing him was not a possibility. T can't seem to lie to his cleric very well, so he had better hope he won't need to explain himself.

Which leaves the question of Nale and Sabine. Sabine almost saw her loved one get cut in half because of Tarquin's ..let's say 'inefficiency'. If Nale told her about the Ring of True Seeing [very likely it happened off-panel], she has every reason to be mad. If Nale didn't tell her, on the other hand, then it will be up to Nale alone to figure it out. Seeing as he's heavily injured, and probably preoccupied with his personal embarrassment in front of his father, that will take some time at least. Nale is an egomaniac, so he is focused more on how people react to him, and may be blissfully unaware of unrelated issues. We will see.

If Tarquin does get exposed and blamed for what happens, then Nale/Sabine will have him over a barrel. He must be their subordinate lackey for the rest of the mission, or they will expose to Malack that T broke a promise to his cleric.

As for the actual ambush: It seems excellently orchestrated so far. Reminds me of things I did with the Holy Word spell in computer games.
IIRC, it stuns for several rounds (dependant on enemy level) with no saving throw. Does it affect only evil, or also neutral? I can't remember. Not that it matters much, since Malack and Kilkil are behind a heavy door now.

[jere7my]

I appear to have been correct, in part. Durkon appears to have been concealed with some sore of illusion. We know he can't move without his armour making audible ruckus, so he lay in wait. Tarquin did see through it, but not in time to be of any help. If anything, it set him on high alert, in a perfect position to catch the arrow intended to distract everyone.

Stop! A trap! [no walking blindly into it then]
When directly asked about what he sees: "I can just feel it."
[here, he deliberately evades the question, avoiding an opportunity to capture the concealed Durkon before he can do any 'Harm']

Rich has already explained in the main thread that Tarquin spotted Haley with an ordinary spot check. Durkon had cast Meld into Stone, which made him pretty much undetectable.

[SaintRidley]

I appear to have been correct, in part. Durkon appears to have been concealed with some sore of illusion. We know he can't move without his armour making audible ruckus, so he lay in wait. Tarquin did see through it, but not in time to be of any help. If anything, it set him on high alert, in a perfect position to catch the arrow intended to distract everyone.



Nope. Meld into Stone is not an illusion. Durkon literally walked out of the wall and went unseen by anybody, including Tarquin.

[coineineagh]

Rich has already explained in the main thread that Tarquin spotted Haley with an ordinary spot check. Durkon had cast Meld into Stone, which made him pretty much undetectable.

Well, then the ring was not involved. But the question remains, why did Tarquin not simply inform the Linear Guild that he spotted a rogue in hiding?

He could have said: "Just be alert." or "I'll explain later."

But he said: "Trap. I can just feel it."
It indicates to me he wished to dodge the answer, and not inform the LG of Haley's presence down the hall. Why, I wonder?

Maybe it's because Haley is Elan's girlfriend. So, it would constitute 'goofing around' instead of being efficient in combat.

If my suspicions are correct, there will be many little 'favours' that Tarquin does for the OotS, to sate his curiosity. I wonder if Malack will notice eventually.

By the way:
Creatures whose HD exceed your caster level are unaffected by holy word. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Holy_Word)
Tarquin seems to be pushed away just like the rest of the guild, so that ends all the speculation that he might be epic level.

Also, Sabine seems to have made her save against Banishment, but it's possible that Qarr will be poofed despite being behind an iron door:
"Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nongood extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the holy word. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a –4 penalty) to negate. "

[Emperordaniel]

How do you know he spotted her, specifically? There's multiple explanations for that scene.

Because the Giant said in the discussion thread for the previous comic that Tarquin had succeeded on a very difficult Spot check against Haley's Hide skill - it was to end a very, very long debate on the subject of whether T had Trap Sense or not. :smallwink:

[Unisus]

By the way:
Creatures whose HD exceed your caster level are unaffected by holy word. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Holy_Word)
Tarquin seems to be pushed away just like the rest of the guild, so that ends all the speculation that he might be epic level.

You might add that we never ever saw anything in this comic that does not follow the rules as strictly as possible. And still the discussion would go on because even that would not be convincing enough (see many other threads where even topics were discussed the Giant already made a statement about).

[jere7my]

Well, then the ring was not involved. But the question remains, why did Tarquin not simply inform the Linear Guild that he spotted a rogue in hiding?

He could have said: "Just be alert." or "I'll explain later."

But he said: "Trap. I can just feel it."
It indicates to me he wished to dodge the answer, and not inform the LG of Haley's presence down the hall. Why, I wonder?

It's also possible he just barely made the check, and was able to see something was hinky without knowing it was Haley in particular. *shrug*


By the way:
Creatures whose HD exceed your caster level are unaffected by holy word. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Holy_Word)
Tarquin seems to be pushed away just like the rest of the guild, so that ends all the speculation that he might be epic level.

We can make some guesses based on the art, but we don't yet know the effects of the Holy Word. It could be that Tarquin is deafened; it could also just be that he's bracing himself against a wave of holy energy that will ultimately leave him unharmed. We'll have to wait and see.

[The Giant]

Well, then the ring was not involved. But the question remains, why did Tarquin not simply inform the Linear Guild that he spotted a rogue in hiding?

Because making a Spot check against a high-level rogue that is 90% around the corner of a door frame does not yield, "You see Haley, your son's girlfriend, getting ready to shoot you with an arrow." It yields, "You see some movement in the shadows up ahead."

And seriously, this is half the reason I never answer rules questions like this in the first place. Someone always takes the most literal interpretation of the rules and spins it off into something that it isn't.

[EmperorSarda]

And seriously, this is half the reason I never answer rules questions like this in the first place. Someone always takes the most literal interpretation of the rules and spins it off into something that it isn't.
But we are grateful nonetheless.

And you know the forum, someone is always spinning something into more grandiose things, with or without your help.

[coineineagh]

Because making a Spot check against a high-level rogue that is 90% around the corner of a door frame does not yield, "You see Haley, your son's girlfriend, getting ready to shoot you with an arrow." It yields, "You see some movement in the shadows up ahead."

Then the mistake is mine. I never played tabletop D&D, so I don't really know what I'm talking about. I always thought that the check determined whether there is full visibility, or none at all. I never considered anything in between.

Thanks for clarifying it all the same:smallsmile: