how could Xykon hurt Tarquin exactly?

[natrl20]

This is a 'raise dead' Xykon vs Tarquin, but I didn't see anyone make anything like this point:

How exactly will Xykon hurt T based on his spell list? his faves are meteor swarm, but T has protection from fire, and is (presumably) extremely dexy, so no fire damage and hard to hit with the bludgeoning.

that dex will also make it nigh impossible for X to spam (maximized) energy drain (dumbass), since that requires a ranged touch.

plus T's will and fort saves are no doubt pretty studly, but how they compare to X's DC will depend on info we don't have, such as just what level T is.
But if T's level is pretty high, won't it be pretty hard for X to actually effect him? even leaving aside his toolkit of magical items... recall that T had no qualms about going to 'help' the low level soldiers arrest V and Z when they were wizard-battling at the palace, so he seems pretty confident about immunity to the attacks of wizards at that level (implying that his saves are good enough so that he'd be in no real danger from them).

of course, T might have a lot of trouble hurting X... but what are the runes on that axe again???

Xykon could superbly dispel them, but that would be a weird first move against a fighter, so if T gets in X's face, he would likely get a few rounds. And with that mystery magic axe, T might actually be able to hurt X enough so we could see a Xykon fizzle (that would take the bony bastard down a peg).

Thoughts?

[Hopeless]

Looks around.
"I see lots of dead people..."

Anywhere else Tarquin might have a chance but Xykon has Redcloak and whilst Tarquin has Malack the rest of his team has little interest in helping Tarquin...

Personally Xykon's going to either need surprise to catch Tarquin or lots of other things to grapple him into submission if he doesn't just blow up the place whilst Tarquin is fighting the reanimated hordes of Girard's family.

[natrl20]

Hmm, well good point about the hordes of undead. I wonder what a reanimated draketooth will turn into?

I was sort of thinking more 1 on 1, a la the Xykon vs Tarquin thread, but now that you mention the teams, I kind of think T comes out ahead on this front.

I assume that Malack is (almost?) equal level to Reddie, as much as I do love the Cloackster. We don't have direct evidence of this from his spell casting, but he's old(er than RC? seems like it), is the high priest of a god himself and has had a super active adventuring/continent dominating career.

And outside of that, all team evil has is MitD, who, god bless 'im, is a caged lunchbox of dubious loyalty to X. While the rest of Linear Guild is of dubious loyalty to Tarquin, they do have an interest in defeating Xykon, and teaming up with T and M is probably their *only* chance ever to even dream of doing it.

Nale is a freaking idiot for not running away from Malack, even if it would mean abandoning his whole half-baked and completely hopeless bid for gate control. Which to me means that Nale is totally committed to that bid, and also convinced he needs M and T.

[Kish]

I assume that Malack is (almost?) equal level to Reddie, as much as I do love the Cloackster.
That's a huge assumption, considering Haley said we don't even know if there are any level 17 clerics in the world, before Redcloak was established as level 17.

Right now, Malack is Durkon's Linear Guild counterpart, which suggests that he's level 15; the highest-level spells he's cast show only that he's at least level 13; and if he's level 17, I wonder that he didn't cast Implosion on Nale.

Any immunities Tarquin has that depend on items will cease to be there if Xykon casts Superb Dispelling on him.

[natrl20]

I'm pretty confident Malack is a few levels higher than Durkon, both because he was teaching him spells and because of the the way M thought that Durkon deserved the honor of being killed by him personally without outside interference.

Right we know from the flame strike that he is at least that level, but the spell was chosen strategically because it dealt fire (which wouldn't hurt T, except for the divine damage) and just to prod them. No reason he would have used his highest level spell in that situation, in fact to me that suggests that he can cast higher level spells, or he wouldn't have wasted it.
Also, flame strike scales with level, so he was casting it at a higher than minimum level of damage.
To me, flame strike makes sense, even if M is epic (i'm not saying that there's any evidence of that).

As for attacking nale, harm seems appropriate, since it gets the target down to 1 hitpoint: perfect for getting a last vengeful 'F you!' in before finishing them off.

Also, maybe he just didn't have implosion prepped on some random day hanging out in the palace? He didn't know he'd get a chance to kill his children's murderer when he woke up that morning.

But, as I said, I'm kind of more interested in the Xykon vs Tarquin 1 on 1 situation. Dispelling would probably be the best first move against Tarquin, since he's probably loaded out with some pretty pimp gear. But Xykon likes to blast first. I'm guessing he'd open with his fave, Meteor Swarm.

I guess a maximized empowered magic missle might be the best bet against T (aside from opening with a dispel--which would open him up to fire damage).

[zimmerwald1915]

That's a huge assumption, considering Haley said we don't even know if there are any level 17 clerics in the world, before Redcloak was established as level 17.

Right now, Malack is Durkon's Linear Guild counterpart, which suggests that he's level 15; the highest-level spells he's cast show only that he's at least level 13; and if he's level 17, I wonder that he didn't cast Implosion on Nale.

Any immunities Tarquin has that depend on items will cease to be there if Xykon casts Superb Dispelling on him.
Lizardfolk have two racial hit dice, Yuan-ti halfbloods have +5 level adjustment, and Yuan-ti abominations have +7 level adjustment. We're not sure just what Malack is, but Linear Guild counterparts tend to have similar effective character level (see V v. Z) rather than similar class level as such. Malack's ECL is likely higher than Durkon's, particularly because Tarquin claims he's higher-level than Roy, but given the various ECL-increasing aspects of whatever his race could be, that doesn't necessarily say much about Malack's class level.

[Morty]

A better question would be "how could Tarquin hurt Xykon"? So far, we haven't really seen anything to indicate Tarquin would do any better than Roy and O-Chul.

[Kish]

I'm pretty confident Malack is a few levels higher than Durkon, both because he was teaching him spells

You mean the way they collaborated on Mass Death Ward, which Rich identified as a seventh-level spell? A completely new spell* which doesn't actually work yet?


Right we know from the flame strike that he is at least that level,

Actually, Harm is what establishes him being at least level 11 (I was actually wrong, he's never cast a seventh-level spell without it being specifically called out that he was using a scroll, and is not established as more than level 11 at all). Flame Strike is level 5 and only requires him to be at least level 9.


Also, maybe he just didn't have implosion prepped on some random day hanging out in the palace? He didn't know he'd get a chance to kill his children's murderer when he woke up that morning.
Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds is a far more specific spell to have prepared** for Nale than Implosion would be. If Malack can cast any spells two levels above the highest spell level he's demonstrated, and has power equal to the second main villain of the comic, both of which strike me as really unlikely.

*Yes, I'm aware there is a Mass Death Ward in print, but Rich clarified that he wasn't aware of that and was treating it as a completely new spell, eyeballing it at level 7.
**Yes, he had to prepare it. He can spontaneously cast Inflict Moderate Wounds as a standard action, he can spontaneously cast Empowered Inflict Moderate Wounds as a full-round action if he has the Empower Spell feat, but he would need to cast Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds as a full-round action if he was casting it spontaneously, which would defeat the purpose of the Quickening exercise.

[Peelee]

I'm pretty confident Malack is a few levels higher than Durkon, both because he was teaching him spells and because of the the way M thought that Durkon deserved the honor of being killed by him personally without outside interference.

You mean, since Malack said he would deal with Durkon alone. Sure, the implication is that he will be the one to kill Durkon, but it could just as easily be his way of protecting a fellow high-ranking cleric he had befriended.


But, as I said, I'm kind of more interested in the Xykon vs Tarquin 1 on 1 situation. Dispelling would probably be the best first move against Tarquin, since he's probably loaded out with some pretty pimp gear. But Xykon likes to blast first. I'm guessing he'd open with his fave, Meteor Swarm.

I guess a maximized empowered magic missle might be the best bet against T (aside from opening with a dispel--which would open him up to fire damage).

I'd rather think his first move would be Epic Mage Armor, followed by (what I believe is) his fave spell, Energy Drain. He can have all the time in the world to pull out Finger of Death, Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Insanity, Cloudkill, and whatever else he has up his sleeve.
[SoD spoiler]Keep in mind, Xykon has no problem just spamming Energy Drain until the fight is over

[eras10]

You mean the way they collaborated on Mass Death Ward, which Rich identified as a seventh-level spell? A completely new spell* which doesn't actually work yet?

I think Kish's posts are strong in correctly asserting that we have very little direct evidence that Malack is higher level than Durkon.

However, I also think both that Malack is higher level than Durkon, and that Rich has absolutely intended to imply that and for us to understand it.


Right now, Malack is Durkon's Linear Guild counterpart, which suggests that he's level 15; the highest-level spells he's cast show only that he's at least level 13; and if he's level 17, I wonder that he didn't cast Implosion on Nale.

This, on the other hand, is unworthy of you, Kish. The reason Malack didn't cast implosion on Nale is that there's no plausible way for Implosion not to instantly destroy Nale, and it wasn't Nale's time to die in the plot. He didn't cast it because it would have worked. Which would have been fine for Malack, but not for the story.

Harm creates drama and a near-death experience for Nale. Implosion either fails outright, making Nale either implausibly powerful or super-optimised against clerics (and Nale is almost anti-optimised, in general) and Malack's equal, which he ain't, which is clear from the attitudes of the characters, including Nale. Or else it instantly one-shots him.

This is all another reason why Malack is almost certainly significantly higher-level than Durkon (well, somewhat-to-significant). We know the Linear Guild is about OOTS' level (whether or not they are personal rivals, I'm not sure, but think ZZditri vs. Varsuvvius and Thog vs. Roy - they're about equal levels, in general, I refuse to get bogged down in details, the fights are close to equal).
and Malack was clearly about to wipe Nale out in a few rounds. Sure, cleric vs. multiclassed mess, but it was way more lopsided than that.

Also, Tarquin is clearly, smack-you-in-the-face obviously higher level than OOTS, and there's no reason why his constant counterparts should be lower.
They're either the most powerful combatants on the continent, or right up there, that's why they're running it (at least it helps).

Again, for whatever reasons Rich has rigorously avoided giving clear evidence, but we know what the story is saying if you know how to read stories.

[eras10]

To give another example of story before rules - Rich's favorite statement, I always think of Xykon vs. Roy riding the Zombie Dragon. We're just about darn sure that Xykon was, absolute minimum, seven or eight levels higher than Roy. How did Roy save against Finger of Death?

Because the story demanded a better, more dramatic death; the end. Maybe Xykon rolled a 1, but I'm pretty sure it was a very unlikely event.

Too many inexplicable rolls of 1 weaken a story. It's smoother as a story that Malack tried to kill Nale with a perfectly good, but not quite good enough, plan but blew an attack roll, which is an easier thing for a cleric to mess up.

Why? Because it was what came to mind in two seconds, that's why. People aren't machines. Maybe he's used Harm a lot lately. There aren't even reasons for decisions you make in less than a second.

[Kish]

This, on the other hand, is unworthy of you, Kish.
What you consider obvious here is very different from what I consider obvious.

Considering the recent dramatic revelation that the second primary villain of the entire comic is--newly--level 17, I will be astounded if we discover that Malack is. Much more so than if we discover, e.g., that Tarquin is actually one level lower than Roy. I see no reason to believe they need to be virtually epic to control, by behind-the-scenes manipulation, a continent in a world where a half-dragon's lightning breath does more lethal damage than 99% of the people in the world can withstand. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12088089&postcount=158).

Again, for whatever reasons Rich has rigorously avoided giving clear evidence, but we know what the story is saying if you know how to read stories.
"If you disagree with me you don't know how to read stories" is quite ironic if you want to talk about arguments being unworthy of someone.

[zimmerwald1915]

This, on the other hand, is unworthy of you, Kish. The reason Malack didn't cast implosion on Nale is that there's no plausible way for Implosion not to instantly destroy Nale, and it wasn't Nale's time to die in the plot. He didn't cast it because it would have worked. Which would have been fine for Malack, but not for the story.
If an author gives a character a choice between doing something that accomplishes his goals and doing something that might not accomplish his stated goals, all things being equal, the character should go with the surefire option. "It had to happen for the story" indicates a weakness in storytelling, because the author has placed the characters in a situation where their acting in-character cannot move the plot forward. Character and plot should not be in conflict, they should compliment one another. I will make the argument that Malack didn't actually have a choice, and that the character and plot are not in conflict, contrary to your argument that presupposes such a conflict.


Harm creates drama and a near-death experience for Nale. Implosion either fails outright, making Nale either implausibly powerful or super-optimised against clerics (and Nale is almost anti-optimised, in general) and Malack's equal, which he ain't, which is clear from the attitudes of the characters, including Nale. Or else it instantly one-shots him.
Now, there might be in-character reasons for Malack to use his one-two spell combo on Nale rather than one surefire kill spell. He might want Nale to realize what is about to happen without jeopordizing the kill overmuch, for instance. That's plausible, we know Malack not only wants Nale to die, he wants Nale to suffer. However, Malack also believes that Nale's suffering will be mostly at the hands of Nergal, and that he is content with keeping a memento in the form of Nale's skull. Malack, as shown in his audience with the Empress, is not a torturer; he accomplishes his goals in the most expedient and direct manner possible.

Given the choice between Harm+QIMW and Implosion, it would be more in-character for Malack to choose Implosion. We can now turn to Occam's Razor for a guide. Either we have to explain why Malack would make an out-of-character decision, or we can assume that there was no choice involved. Implosion, or any similarly destructive high-level spell, was not available to him. Why that might be is up in the air. He might not have the spell levels. He might not have prepared destructive spells in his high-level spell slots. But given that Malack has cast spells in several scenes now, that he has never cast above a level six spell out of his own slots, and that we are using Occam's Razor as a guide, it is not a huge leap to the conclusion that Malack didn't cast Implosion because he doesn't have ninth-level spells, that he didn't cast Earthquake because he doesn't have eighth-level spells, that he didn't cast Disintegrate because he doesn't have seventh-level spells. And he might have all those spells: he's a Cleric of Nergal, after all, and these are all in the Destruction domain.


This is all another reason why Malack is almost certainly significantly higher-level than Durkon (well, somewhat-to-significant). We know the Linear Guild is about OOTS' level (whether or not they are personal rivals, I'm not sure, but think ZZditri vs. Varsuvvius and Thog vs. Roy - they're about equal levels, in general, I refuse to get bogged down in details, the fights are close to equal).
and Malack was clearly about to wipe Nale out in a few rounds. Sure, cleric vs. multiclassed mess, but it was way more lopsided than that.
Here we get to the discrepency between class level and effective character level. ECL is a composite number that equals class level + racial hit dice + level adjustment. I happen to believe Malack is a Yuan-ti Halfbreed, since he doesn't appear to me to have legs. Being a Yuan-ti Halfbreed would give him LA +5. If he had 11 Cleric levels, being a Yuan-ti Halfbreed would give him an ECL of 16, higher than anyone in the OOTS has been confirmed to be besides Belkar, and almost certainly higher than Durkon. Being a Lizardfolk, which most people seem to think he is, would give Malack two racial hit dice, and 11 Cleric levels would give him 13 ECL, equal to Durkon's currently-conceived minimum level.

When OOTS and LG characters are compared for parity, the number we're using to compare them is not class level but ECL. Sabine, for instance, is not as accomplished a rogue as Haley even though they are of similar ECL, because Sabine has a bunch of racial abilities, Outsider hit dice, etc., which means her ECL is much higher than her Rogue class level.


Also, Tarquin is clearly, smack-you-in-the-face obviously higher level than OOTS, and there's no reason why his constant counterparts should be lower.
They're either the most powerful combatants on the continent, or right up there, that's why they're running it (at least it helps).
Now, Tarquin's a human, which means he doesn't have RHD or LA. If Malack's a Yuan-ti Halfblood and thus ECL 16, to have ECL parity with him Tarquin would have to make it up with class levels. Which again makes him higher-level than anyone in the OOTS, and certainly higher-level than Roy.


Again, for whatever reasons Rich has rigorously avoided giving clear evidence, but we know what the story is saying if you know how to read stories.
But there's another argument to be made here. Tarquin's party is competant. The OOTS, by and large, is not. This is, and this is an important concept to understand, regardless of level. High level does not confer competence. Of course, to get to high level implies a certain degree of competence in your field, but the counterargument is that Xykon could not run Tarquin's scheme. Xykon is not as competant in as many different, and pertinent, areas as Tarquin's party.

Nale and Sabine fear Malack and not Durkon. You've taken this as an indication that Malack should be higher-level. But there's a simpler explanation that, just for gravy, depends on continuity and thus the plot. Nale's and Sabine's last direct combat encounter with Durkon was in the Dungeon of Dorukan, where a single energy drain by Sabine took him to unconsciousness. True, Durkon played the primary role in defeating Leeky, but it took the intervention of the whole OOTS to really bring him to heel. The point, however, is that Nale and Sabine weren't involved in that combat, and indeed didn't even see most or all of it. Then Durkon opens his combat with Nale and Sabine with a piddly third-level spell that they both evade before being energy-drained into irrelevance. Of course they're confident. Their last combat with Malack, meanwhile, ended in ignominous defeat. Of course they're going to fear him, for the same reason that V could be made to believe A could defeat the ABD: because in their last encouncter with Malack, he was so far above them that he forms a towering presence in their minds.

[eras10]

What you consider obvious here is very different from what I consider obvious.

Okay. Look, sorry to get on your bad side, but regardless of what you think, you should know that wiping out Nale doesn't make sense from a story standpoint there, and that using Implosion would do that, or fail, which would distract from the whole "kicking Nale's butt" point that Rich clearly got across. It's a mistake to jump to conclusions about Malack's level because he didn't use an instant kill against someone Rich didn't want to kill off yet.


Considering the recent dramatic revelation that the second primary villain of the entire comic is--newly--level 17, I will be astounded if we discover that Malack is

Redcloak couldn't take Miko by himself all of two books ago. The story - and I don't mean some amorphous signaling, I mean the events in the story - has always been consistent with Redcloak not being all that strong (although Redcloak has been consistently gaining power with every book). Furthermore, while Redcloak may be the second primary villian, he's never been implied as the second most powerful bad guy. Historically, He's been a hood ornament lashed to Xykon's engine of malice. Things have changed- recently.

I'm sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way, but I don't think you've addressed my points much. It doesn't make much sense that Tarquin is fighting most of OOTS to a draw by himself and yet isn't any higher level than them. And I don't see why Malack is lower than Tarquin.

Furthermore, to repeat myself:

Zzditri = same level as Varsuvvius
Nale = roughly same level as Zzditri
Malack steamrollers Nale

So how do we look at that and say Malack is level 11 or level 13? It doesn't add up. How is Malack steamrollering LG folks more powerful than himself?

[eras10]

But given that Malack has cast spells in several scenes now, that he has never cast above a level six spell out of his own slots, and that we are using Occam's Razor as a guide, it is not a huge leap to the conclusion that Malack didn't cast Implosion because he doesn't have ninth-level spells, that he didn't cast Earthquake because he doesn't have eighth-level spells, that he didn't cast Disintegrate because he doesn't have seventh-level spells. And he might have all those spells: he's a Cleric of Nergal, after all, and these are all in the Destruction domain.

These are reasonable arguments, i guess, to split the difference. On the other hand, I think another explanation for Malack's behavior is that he's keeping his powder dry. He's not using super-moves against his targets because he generally saves them for when he really needs them. He never knows when his life might be in danger.

This is definitely Tarquin's style - he uses the minimum level of personal force he finds neccessary, and doesn't bother to strap up his axe for small fry.

I guess Malack could be a yuan-ti halfbreed or something else to make him more powerful without having cleric levels, but I'm not changing my assessment because it seems more complicated than neccessary. There's no direct evidence of Malack being higher level than OOTS, but I see no reason why they aren't except "no evidence" and that can mean all kinds of things.

We had this same debate with Tarquin until the last five strips revealed more or less beyond doubt that Tarquin is higher level than OOTS. Until then, we had Tarquin in several combat scenes with no evidence he was higher level than OOTS! But he was. Give Rich some credit, his villians don't always pull out the big guns on small fry.

Character and plot shouldn't be in conflict, but Rich talks repeatedly about how hard it is to have a real-plot when D&D characters have such plot-rupturing powers. I think Rich is a great storyteller, but if you think that it is in Malack's character to use his best stuff on Nate, than plot and character are in conflict. I think when Tarquin and Malack get whatever's coming to them here at someone's hands - maybe Xykon, maybe a soul-controlled Super-Evil-Varsuviius-puppet 2.0, you'll see Malack whip out bigger guns.

[Gray Mage]

On the topic of XvT, forcecage followed by cloudkill. Even in the case of Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage, it should still take a while for Tarquin to escape, and even if that happens, Xykon can do it again until Tarquin dies.

[Forikroder]

Xykon cant use his favourite (not most deadly spell)

Tarquin cant attack Xykon while hes hovering at 100 feet above the fight

Xykon has to beat Tarquins moderate dexterity

Tarquin has a hell of a lot less Dex then Xykon has Charisma

Tarquin is immune to fire damage

Xykon can dispell his immunity if he wants to (yes that does actually work temporarily i beleive) or he could jsut rely on his 3 dozen other lethal spells

Xykon has so many spells per day he could kill Tarquin with jsut chain casting magic missile

surprisingly, being immune to fire and having an average dex score does not let you beat an epic level lich sorcerer

[Kish]

Redcloak couldn't take Miko by himself all of two books ago. The story - and I don't mean some amorphous signaling, I mean the events in the story - has always been consistent with Redcloak not being all that strong (although Redcloak has been consistently gaining power with every book).

The entire Order couldn't take Miko two books ago (and never did fight her with all her powers and magic items working and win). Would you say the Order is "not all that strong"?

Moreover, while it is true that Redcloak was established as weaker than Miko then, I consider the :haley: "I don't even know if there are any 17th-level clerics in this world!" :belkar: "Ooh, I bet Redcloak is 17th-level!" :redcloak: Implosion! :redcloak: *annihilates Tsukiko* to be a clear indication that Things Have Changed. Now, there is one level 17 cleric in the world, not more or less. And his name's not Malack.


I'm sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way, but I don't think you've addressed my points much. It doesn't make much sense that Tarquin is fighting most of OOTS to a draw by himself and yet isn't any higher level than them.

Doesn't it? I take it you believe Miko was higher level than the Order as well, then?

I consider it--for Tarquin and for Miko--up in the air. Lower level is unlikely; equal or higher level are both possible; epic level is right out. And I rather expect that Tarquin will, as Miko did, carry the unsettled question of exactly what level he is to his grave. He clearly has a bunch of defensive feats Roy doesn't have, but there's no indication he has more feats than Roy could have, if Roy had pursued a more defensive build.


And I don't see why Malack is lower than Tarquin.

As zimmerwald1915 pointed out, if Malack's ECL is equal to Tarquin then Malack's class level is lower than the human Tarquin's, whatever Malack's race is.


Furthermore, to repeat myself:

Zzditri = same level as Varsuvvius
Nale = roughly same level as Zzditri
Malack steamrollers Nale

You left out, "Yukyuk steamrollers Zz'dtri," "Vaarsuvius steamrollers Yukyuk," "Zz'dtri steamrollers Vaarsuvius," and "Zz'dtri steamrollers Haley with one spell not at the highest level he can cast." And Nale's build makes him much weaker than his level would indicate if he had one class, or a multiclass combination designed by a drunken raven*. (For starters, Malack can pretty much count on Nale failing any saving throw Malack chooses to use against him--something which isn't true of any other member of the Order or the Linear Guild; Malack would need to avoid targeting Roy's Fortitude save or Vaarsuvius' Will save, but for Nale? Any of them will do.)

"X beat Y in a fight with ease" just doesn't equal "X is therefore significantly higher level than Y." Do you think Redcloak was higher level than Tsukiko**? He might have been, but no part of his easily defeating her the way he did requires it.

*Yes, I mean to imply that Nale is worse at optimizing than a drunken raven. Not Blackwing, either. The nonsapient kind of raven.
**Character level, that is: Was Tsukiko a Cleric 3/Wizard 4/Mystic Theurge 10? I'd say probably not, but it's as unprovable as Miko's level.

[Forikroder]

The entire Order couldn't take Miko two books ago (and never did fight her with all her powers and magic items working and win). Would you say the Order is "not all that strong"?

Moreover, while it is true that Redcloak was established as weaker than Miko then, I consider the "I don't even know if there are any 17th-level clerics in this world!" "Ooh, I bet Redcloak is 17th-level!" Implosion! *annihilates Tsukiko* to be a clear indication that Things Have Changed. Now, there is one level 17 cleric in the world, not more or less. And his name's not Malack.

i dont think that should count as good evidence its not like theres a list of everyone in the world and what level there at, theyd be relying on word of mouth to figure out what people are what level

i think the only thing we can derive from that statement is what we already know, high level characters, especially spellcasters*, are extremely rare

*taken from Quarrs statement about how rare it to find wizard past low level and expanding that to other spellcasters

[orrion]

These are reasonable arguments, i guess, to split the difference. On the other hand, I think another explanation for Malack's behavior is that he's keeping his powder dry. He's not using super-moves against his targets because he generally saves them for when he really needs them. He never knows when his life might be in danger.

Um. Malack REALLY wanted Nale dead there. If he had a super 1-shot move, he'd have used it.

Yes, there's plot, but the players still have to act in character. Fudging to keep Nale alive at that point doesn't fit with Malack's characterization.

He could have had those spells and just not had them prepared, of course, but he most definitely did not have them prepared and just chose not to use them.

[Forikroder]

Um. Malack REALLY wanted Nale dead there. If he had a super 1-shot move, he'd have used it.

Yes, there's plot, but the players still have to act in character. Fudging to keep Nale alive at that point doesn't fit with Malack's characterization.

He could have had those spells and just not had them prepared, of course, but he most definitely did not have them prepared and just chose not to use them.

this was discussed to death at the time of the actual strip, Malacks 2 spell combo was one of the best combos he could have possibly chosen

he could have tried a one shot spell (assuming he had them) but im pretty sure it was theory crafted that if Nale made his save then he would ahve taken less damage then saving a harm

and while a quickened mass inflict light wounds could have been a better follow up imo its a bit metagamy to use a mass inflict on one target because it doesnt miss so following up with the spell he did also makes alot of sense

and we all know Malack has an insanely quick temper so maybe Harm was jsut the first spell that jumped to his mind, perhaps he didnt even realise that Nale would be able to teleport out thinking that Nale would take more after his dad and be more of a fighter then spellcaster which further makes his chocie f spells make alot of sense

all in all, the spells he used dont immediately mean he couldnt possibly have access to higher level spells

[Steward]

All Xykon must do is to inflict enough lethal damage to Tarquin's hitpoints to -10.

[zimmerwald1915]

These are reasonable arguments, i guess, to split the difference. On the other hand, I think another explanation for Malack's behavior is that he's keeping his powder dry. He's not using super-moves against his targets because he generally saves them for when he really needs them. He never knows when his life might be in danger.

This is definitely Tarquin's style - he uses the minimum level of personal force he finds neccessary, and doesn't bother to strap up his axe for small fry.
I appreciate that you're trying to be amiable, but there's no need to split the difference. See, once you start bringing up points about Tarquin's character to rationalize Malack's behavior - especially in a scene where Tarquin is not present and has no influence over events than as a constant brooding presence in the background - than you must recognize that you don't actually have a case. Even supposing you're right and that Malack is a careful, rational thinker and husband of his resources, we can see that in the rooftop scene he is clearly not in a rational state of mind. Immediately he drops what he's holding in shock. Then Nale prods at an old, deep wound, and we see Malack with both the shocked and furious eyebrow markings, which he wears - losing the "shocked" markings for a couple panels - throughout the strip. His magic aura is all over the place even when casting a sixth-level spell, indicating extreme emotional force behind his spellcasting. Compare his Harm with the Harm Redcloak used to heal Xykon when they were fighting the ghost-martyrs. There is every indication that Malack is lashing out with all the force he can muster to destroy his hated enemy Nale as utterly and as quickly as possible.

Compare this to Malack's response to Elan's escape from the throne room, and you will see that this is not an isolated incident. As soon as things stop going his way, as soon as "Nale" looks like he might escape his clutches again, Malack loses it. He gets the angry eyebrows. He flails his staff around to the limit of his wingspan. His elevated language degenerates into ravings about how Nale is a "filthy traitor". He shouts at the Empress and insults her to her face - when Tarquin enters, in contrast, the first thing he does when he gets within earshot of the Empress is to pacify and flatter her. And he does his utmost to prevent "Nale" from escaping, once again, incidentally, employing a sixth-level spell.

Without bothering to look at the evidence, which shows that where Nale is concerned Malack is not ruled by reason, you have constructed a rationale for Malack's behavior that has nothing to do with Malack's character.


I guess Malack could be a yuan-ti halfbreed or something else to make him more powerful without having cleric levels, but I'm not changing my assessment because it seems more complicated than neccessary.
Even if he's a lizardfolk, his minimum ECL with 11 cleric levels is equal to Durkon's current minimum ECL. He could have 12 cleric levels, making him ECL 14, without having access to seventh-level spells. And once again there's the elephant in the room that Malack and Durkon are very different kinds of cleric. Durkon's the sort of cleric that prepares lots of utility, defensive buffs for his party, healing, and a little combat. Today we've seen him prepare two True Seeing spells (one extended), two Resurrection spells, Speak With Dead, Find the Path, Mass Resist Energy, and a couple lower-level ones. Malack, on the other hand, tends to prepare spells to control the battlefield and spells to harm others. We've seen him prepare Blade Barrier and Control Winds in the first category, Flame Strike, Harm, and Inflict X Wounds in the second. He can also Quicken his spells, which indicates a more offensive mindset than Durkon's Extend. Assuming equal ECL (just as a thought exercise, I'm not suggesting that Malack and Durkon must be of equal ECL), which sort of Cleric makes more of an impression as powerful and imposing?


There's no direct evidence of Malack being higher level than OOTS, but I see no reason why they aren't except "no evidence" and that can mean all kinds of things.
There's hardly "no evidence" that in the scenes where he's employing spells against Nale - or Elan who he thought to be Nale - he's reaching for the most powerful magic at his disposal that is applicable to the situation. I will grant you that most of that evidence is related to Malack's character rather than him coming right out and saying that he can't cast seventh-level spells, but we get that kind of information after the fact. Because V cast Power Word Stun during the fight with Ganjii and Enor, that doesn't mean she had eighth-level spells in the Dungeon of Dorukan. Because Redcloak cast Implosion against the Resistance, that doesn't mean he had ninth-level spells when his village was destroyed. We can infer that when we have known a character for a long time and they suddenly reveal an impressive new ability, that they came by that ability fairly recently. We can confirm our inference with comments like Redcloak's after he uses Implosion.

What we can't do is assign an arbitrarily high ceiling based on what abilities we'd like the character to have. Only the Giant can do that. In the absence of the Giant weighing in on this debate - and he tends not to - and given the evidence that we do have regarding Malack's character and the pattern of his interactions with Nale, it is safer to say that the upper limit of Malack's power does not lie far above the abilities he's already demonstrated.


We had this same debate with Tarquin until the last five strips revealed more or less beyond doubt that Tarquin is higher level than OOTS. Until then, we had Tarquin in several combat scenes with no evidence he was higher level than OOTS! But he was. Give Rich some credit, his villians don't always pull out the big guns on small fry.
The last five strips revealed nothing of the kind. They mostly confirmed what we already knew: that Tarquin is a skilled fighter versed in complex techniques who is hard to hit and is pimped out with a load of imba magic items that render hits his enemies do land on him negligable. We knew that much from his fights with Amun-Zora and Elan, though he had to pull out more fancy tricks to deal with fighting the OOTS five on one. Basically, he demonstrated that he was indeed a skilled fighter instead of a commoner with a lot of toys, which I maintain was mechanically possible up until the fight on the pyramid, even including the pun-duel with Elan. Even in this last fight, Tarquin did not demonstrate a BAB of 16 or higher, though he might have been holding back to maintain the "Thog" disguise or might have levels in a non-full-BAB class. All we can be sure of about his class level is that he thinks it's higher than Roy's. Not that it matters, because again you're using - flawed - evidence concerning Tarquin to make an argument about Malack.


Character and plot shouldn't be in conflict, but Rich talks repeatedly about how hard it is to have a real-plot when D&D characters have such plot-rupturing powers. I think Rich is a great storyteller, but if you think that it is in Malack's character to use his best stuff on Nate, than plot and character are in conflict. I think when Tarquin and Malack get whatever's coming to them here at someone's hands - maybe Xykon, maybe a soul-controlled Super-Evil-Varsuviius-puppet 2.0, you'll see Malack whip out bigger guns.
There are three options here. Either Malack is choosing not to use his best stuff on Nale, which implies a rationality to Malack's behavior that the strips in question don't support, or Malack is so blinded by hatred that he...tries to annihilate his enemy with less force than he might, or Malack is really acting to the limit of his abilities. Again, you seem to be starting from the assumption that Malack has got to have a bunch of cleric levels and criticizing my argument on that basis. "Because Malack is more powerful than we have seen," you seem to be saying, "Rich must be holding him back, holding powers in reserve, to not break the plot".

This argument not only misunderstands Malack's character, but also misunderstands Rich's process when giving characters abilities. He does not give characters a specific set of abilities and write his scenes picking and choosing from among them. He establishes their abilities as he goes along, taking the ability set he's established in previous scenes and adding new abilities on as the plot demands. Characters tend to grow their ability sets - and since this is a D&D-style world, to grow in class level - as time goes on. That does not mean that these characters have always had these powers, and that the Giant was holding them back until the big reveal. It means that they've grown into their new powers. And there's even a D&D-mechanical explanation for Malack gaining a new spell level for this fight. Even if Nale's got a mess of a build, he and Sabine are still fairly high ECL characters and defeating them would give Malack XP. He could have leveled from that fight.

[Mike Havran]

Moreover, while it is true that Redcloak was established as weaker than Miko then, I consider the :haley: "I don't even know if there are any 17th-level clerics in this world!" :belkar: "Ooh, I bet Redcloak is 17th-level!" :redcloak: Implosion! :redcloak: *annihilates Tsukiko* to be a clear indication that Things Have Changed. Now, there is one level 17 cleric in the world, not more or less. And his name's not Malack.


That is a nice example of a flawed logic. Haley is hardly the one that keeps exact information about all clerics in the world and their respective levels. She has likely never been on Western continent before. She is not even sure in her statement. And yet you take her guess (which she said under stress, she lost her leader's body after all) as a complete truth and conclude that after Redcloak gained level 17, there is exactly one such cleric in the world.

Malack himself probably isn't 17, but dismissing the option and saying there are no such clerics in the world except Redcloak just because of a questionable statement of one rogue is not correct.

[iBear]

Tarquin's main strength so far seems to be his foresight and ability to plan. If he's not expecting to fight an epic-level lich, I think Xykon would have him pretty easily in a one-on-one fight. Even with preparation, Tarquin would have to be pretty lucky.

We also haven't seen a lot of Tarquin's fighting ability yet since he's a newer character. Yeah, he's kicking butt now, but all major villains do that initially to establish themselves as a credible threat. Xykon, on the other hand, has repeatedly demonstrated his ability to crush every obstacle in his way. The only exception so far was his fight with the ghost paladins, but he still came out on top.

[Aricandor]

Probably with Superb Dispelling and a lot of Energy Drain. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

Malack himself probably isn't 17, but dismissing the option and saying there are no such clerics in the world except Redcloak just because of a questionable statement of one rogue is not correct.
No, I'm dismissing the option and saying there are no such clerics in the world except the second primary villain, high priest and prophet of the Dark One, and recently retired Supreme Leader of Gobbotopia in part because of a statement by one of the protagonists of the comic.

Consider it "flawed logic" if you want, but please get the actual thought processes here right. :smalltongue:

[terenes]

Xykon COULD hurt Tarquin in great many ways, but he isn't going to do such things. He is quite predictible in his actions. Superb dispelling was Redcloaks idea. As far as we seen against fighters Xykon is using meteor swarm. Some other fire and lightning damage spells. Finger of death. More meteor swarms. Ochul survived quite a lot rounds while fighting against Xykon. Xykon would not fight optimally against Tarquin because he doesn't play on weakness of his enemies only "takes bigger hammer" (more fire damage or more energy drain).

[Mike Havran]

No, I'm dismissing the option and saying there are no such clerics in the world except the second primary villain, high priest and prophet of the Dark One, and recently retired Supreme Leader of Gobbotopia in part because of a statement by one of the protagonists of the comic.


What are the other reasons you think that, then? Besides Haley's insecurity about it.

[Forikroder]

Xykon COULD hurt Tarquin in great many ways, but he isn't going to do such things. He is quite predictible in his actions. Superb dispelling was Redcloaks idea. As far as we seen against fighters Xykon is using meteor swarm. Some other fire and lightning damage spells. Finger of death. More meteor swarms. Ochul survived quite a lot rounds while fighting against Xykon. Xykon would not fight optimally against Tarquin because he doesn't play on weakness of his enemies only "takes bigger hammer" (more fire damage or more energy drain).

heres what you dont get though, it would be difficult for Haley to dodge most of Xykons spells, Tarquin is likely to take full damage from whatever Xykon choosing to throw at him and after one meteor swarm (IF he uses it he only used it against roy to destroy the dragon) hell realise T has protection from fire and use other sources of damage

and T still has absolutely no way to damage Xykon

[Blisstake]

How exactly will Xykon hurt T based on his spell list? his faves are meteor swarm, but T has protection from fire

This was likely cast on him by Malak. Even if not, Xykon can easily dispel his magic items.


and is (presumably) extremely dexy,

I wouldn't presume that. If he were extremely dexy, I don't think he would wear heavy armor.


that dex will also make it nigh impossible for X to spam (maximized) energy drain (dumbass), since that requires a ranged touch.

Ranged touch attacks are extremely easy to make, even against opponents with high dex. If Xykon is around level 30 (requirement for Epic Forge Ring, since he has a fire immunity ring) he has +15 to hit in BAB alone, not including any dexterity bonuses he might have. This would likely give him a fairly significant chance to hit, even if Tarquin has high dex, which is, again, questionable.

[Peelee]

No, I'm dismissing the option and saying there are no such clerics in the world except the second primary villain, high priest and prophet of the Dark One, and recently retired Supreme Leader of Gobbotopia in part because of a statement by one of the protagonists of the comic.

Consider it "flawed logic" if you want, but please get the actual thought processes here right. :smalltongue:

See, I was right with you all the way until you tried to assert that Redcloak is the only level 17 cleric in the world. This is based on a misunderstanding, I think.

Haley does not say there are no level 17 clerics in the world. She specifically says she does not know if there are any. This indicates rarity, but not lack of existence. As such, more level 17 clerics could easily exist in this world (though there would be very few, most likely). As she did not know much about the politics of the Western Continent, much less the workings of the behind-the-scenes players (those being Tarquin's party), she - and most people in the world - would very likely not even be aware of Malack's existence, much less his level. Nor would most of the world.

Now, I feel I should note, I am not asserting this as proof Malack is level 17 (or any level, for that matter). I am, however, asserting that Haley saying "I don't even know if there are any 17th-level clerics in this world!" is not the same as saying "There aren't any 17th-level clerics in this world."

Haley is not an authority on high-level clerics, and even if she were, she is saying she does not know of their existence, not that there aren't any.

As such, it is possible for Malack to be level 17 (or higher). I highly doubt he is higher than or equal to Redcloak, but the possibility does exist.

I'd like to reiterate 2323mike's query, though, and ask what other rationales you use in determining Redcloak to be the only 17th-level Cleric. After all, you may well be right based on other evidence you have not presented.

[Kish]

See, I was right with you all the way until you tried to assert that Redcloak is the only level 17 cleric in the world. This is based on a misunderstanding, I think.

Haley does not say there are no level 17 clerics in the world. She specifically says she does not know if there are any. This indicates rarity, but not lack of existence.
Extreme rarity, yes.

Belkar's immediate, "I bet Redcloak is seventeenth level!" response to Haley saying that makes me suspect that Redcloak is higher level than any other cleric. The way he mowed down the high priest of the entire Southern pantheon--a man whose most powerful spell cast while losing a duel for his life and the fate of his city was a level 6 Law domain spell--makes me further think that level 12 counts as very high level in this world. But primarily, I think Redcloak is the only level 17 cleric because of the dramatic way the revelation of him having Implosion and Gate was handled, with him casually dispatching Tsukiko in the middle. I cannot be absolutely certain, of course, but even if we eventually find out that the high priest of the Northern pantheon is level 25, I will be amazed if a third-stringer mostly-villain like Malack turns out to be equal to Redcloak's level.

[Peelee]

Extreme rarity, yes.

Belkar's immediate, "I bet Redcloak is seventeenth level!" response to Haley saying that makes me suspect that Redcloak is higher level than any other cleric.

Redcloak is also a very familiar character to the order, which also explain away why Belkar instantly leaped to him as an instant, easy example.


The way he mowed down the high priest of the entire Southern pantheon--a man whose most powerful spell cast while losing a duel for his life and the fate of his city was a level 6 Law domain spell--makes me further think that level 12 counts as very high level in this world.

Well, Redcloak himself wasn't that impressive himself until he won. Poison is 4th-level, Slay Living and Plane Shift each 5th-level, and Destruction 7th-level. Granted, yes, Redcloak had the highest level spell go off, but this is right before the occupation of Azure City, during which he obtained the required exp to cast 9th-level spells. Which means at the time of the duel, he was able to cast 8th-level spells, and simply didn't, for reasons unkown to us. While I do agree with your assertion that level 12 probably counts as very high level in this world, this works as a perfect example of a higher-level cleric not using his highest-level spell. Just because we haven't seen Malack throw around anything close to Redcloak's level doesn't mean he doesn't have anything he can throw. It is still very possible, however unlikely, for Malack to be equal to or greater than Redcloak.


But primarily, I think Redcloak is the only level 17 cleric because of the dramatic way the revelation of him having Implosion and Gate was handled, with him casually dispatching Tsukiko in the middle. I cannot be absolutely certain, of course, but even if we eventually find out that the high priest of the Northern pantheon is level 25, I will be amazed if a third-stringer mostly-villain like Malack turns out to be equal to Redcloak's level.

I agree on all points here, actually.

(For the record, I think Malack is just below Redcloak, in the 8th-level-spell-max range. I'm just playing devil's advocate in that there is the possibility that Malack is capable of as much power as Redcloak)

[terenes]

heres what you dont get though, it would be difficult for Haley to dodge most of Xykons spells, Tarquin is likely to take full damage from whatever Xykon choosing to throw at him and after one meteor swarm (IF he uses it he only used it against roy to destroy the dragon) hell realise T has protection from fire and use other sources of damage

and T still has absolutely no way to damage Xykon

I never said that Tarquin will win or can seriously hurt Xykon in straight fight.
But Xykon has never cared about what and why his enemy is resistant to.
Tactical hints came from Redcloak. That was in case of fight with saphire guard ghosts and against Darth V. too.

And yes, he used meteor swarm as main spell against Ochul. Im sure he had much more suitable spells but he didn't use them because he isn't strategy minded.
As I said he COULD DO MUCH DAMAGE but he WOULDN't.

[terenes]

edit: double post

[Mantine]

The entire Order couldn't take Miko two books ago (and never did fight her with all her powers and magic items working and win). Would you say the Order is "not all that strong"?

Let's not be silly now, that was entirely the point of the "stupid railroad plot" gag.

[Forikroder]

But Xykon has never cared about what and why his enemy is resistant to.

completely wrong, he was too dumb to realise ghosts were hard to hit as soon as he knew what could hit them he started using it hes not going to throw 10 meteor swarms at tarquin and scratch his head hes going to throw (MAYBE) one meteor swarm at him then start using other spells


And yes, he used meteor swarm as main spell against Ochul. Im sure he had much more suitable spells but he didn't use them because he isn't strategy minded.

actually we saw him cast 2 spells agaisnt Ochul in the fight, one meteor swarm then a chain lightning (or some lightning spell) so its not like hes obsessed with using meteor swarm, he uses meteor swarm as any other spell but when hes using an AoE spell that would damage him he uses meteor swarm because its the strongest AoE damage spell he has that wont harm him

so to answer your question more directly, no he did not ahve more suitable spells unless he wanted to try breaking Ochuls (probably) insane saves as a high level paladin

[snikrept]

Point of order: at the time Haley said she was unaware of any level 17 clerics, she was also unaware of Malack's existence. He showed up later.

So even if he is that high, she was still making a true statement.

[sims796]

That sounds a tad insulting to say "he didn't do it because the story didn't say so". I may not be a literary major, but that is such bad logic it isn't even funny. That's...not how you tell a story. If the only rational would be "he needs to tell a story", well, those are called plot holes, deus ex, and more affectionately, plot armor. And plot armor is not a positive, it's a funny way of saying, "well, the writer must have thought 'aw to hell with it, he'll survive because I say so!'".

[sims796]

That sounds a tad insulting to say "he didn't do it because the story didn't say so". I may not be a literary major, but that is such bad logic it isn't even funny. That's...not how you tell a story. If the only rational would be "he needs to tell a story", well, those are called plot holes, deus ex, and more affectionately, plot armor. And plot armor is not a positive, it's a funny way of saying, "well, the writer must have thought 'aw to hell with it, he'll survive because I say so!'".

[Gandariel]

A quick though:

Malack is, likely, in the 14-16 range. Could be 17+, but i highly doubt.

He HAS to be level 13+ to even be a challenge to Durkon, he's maybe a couple levels over him. The fact that he hasn't cast high level spells yet isn't conclusive.
The fact that he is supposed to be stronger than a level 13+ Cleric, is.
(What story would it be if he wasn't a credible threat to the OOTS?)

Tarquin has no chanches against Xykon.
Xykon is 10 levels above him, at least.
Although Yes, Xykon would likely open with Meteor Swarm.
:xykon: Oh, that didn't hurt? let's try this!
Energy drain
Maximized lightning bolt
(if all of these don't hit)
:xykon: Okay then.
Forcecage
Superb Dispelling
Cloudkill/meteorswarm/whatever.

All of that while flying. It's weird that Tarquin has no modes of flight, i guess he has some (Potion of fly? Boots of flying?)
Anyway, Xykon can resist him. Also, don't forget he has Epic Mage armor. And Ghostform. (Oh, and Dispel would make him fall down, incidentally)
He could also kill his pterodaptyl(or whatever it's called) and have him fall down.
If even all of this stuff doesn't work, Teleport away.

Tarquin has no chance, barring luck/plot/helpers.

(And to Forikroder, O-Chul's saves were likely bad(Except for a great Fort), cause Cha was his dump stat. likely no Divine grace. Also, he's been a fighter first, which means one only good save)

[lio45]

...I'm just playing devil's advocate in that there is the possibility that Malack is capable of as much power as Redcloak

Actually, in the absence of solid evidence either way, the obvious default assumption is that the story's A-Team Bad Guys cleric is a more powerful cleric than the story's B-Team Bad Guys cleric.

Pretty simple really.

[Smolder]

Tarquin has no chance, barring luck/plot/helpers.


Does anyone?

[Forikroder]

(And to Forikroder, O-Chul's saves were likely bad(Except for a great Fort), cause Cha was his dump stat. likely no Divine grace. Also, he's been a fighter first, which means one only good save)

Cha may be his dump stat but i think hes high enough level for his Cha to still be a positive, and i dont think hed have any more then 3 levels of fighter so most of his levels would be paladin

and all that information is unkown to Xykon, all Xykon knows is Ochul is one bad ass paladin whos willing to try and punch him in the face


Does anyone?

Serini might be able to make something happen if she can get a really good sneak attack while Xykons flat footed

but i think Xykons even immune to sneak attack being a lich so unless there are other epic level spellcasters somewhere Xykon is probably the strongest being in the entire plane

[Peelee]

Actually, in the absence of solid evidence either way, the obvious default assumption is that the story's A-Team Bad Guys cleric is a more powerful cleric than the story's B-Team Bad Guys cleric.

Pretty simple really.

If you go by simple story conventions. If you look at how the comic is currently playing out, though. Redcloak is a very old, high-level cleric who did not do much of anything XP-gaining-wise as a thrall of Xykon (there was the fight at Lirian's Gate, then he was holed up in the Dungeon of Dorukan, got an army, fought a war, and ruled a city. All good things that could gain XP - except chilling the the DoD - but spread out over a pretty long time). Meanwhile, Malack is a very old, unknown-level cleric who has been palling around with Tarquin, either questing or subvertively ruling a city (ruling does get XP, as evidenced by Redcloak's ascension to 17). So Malack is definitely capable, by logical and reasoned viewpoints, of being Redcloak's equal, in terms of power.

I really want to make a joke about the term "obvious default assumption" being used in this forum, but I like rational debates like this.

[Smolder]

Serini might be able to make something happen if she can get a really good sneak attack while Xykons flat footed

A lucky strike that destroys his body is only step one. Now you gotta destroy the phylactery before he reforms, which means taking down Redcloak too.



but i think Xykons even immune to sneak attack being a lich so unless there are other epic level spellcasters somewhere Xykon is probably the strongest being in the entire plane

The classic solution to that problem is to find some other overpowered, overconfident villain and set him on a collision course with Xykon... Oh wait... that's supposed to be Tarquin I guess...

[Jade_Tarem]

I'm surprised that no one has brought this up yet, but Xykon is an Epic Level Caster. Those rules aren't mentioned much in the comic, but if Xykon is truly going 'by the book' then there are a nigh-infinite number of ways that he can hammer a non-epic Tarquin.

Epic Level spellcasters are capable of creating their own spells, and the mechanism for doing so is utterly broken (This is the same set of rules that gave us "Familicide" - a spell that killed 25% of the world's black dragons with no save, no spell resistance, and no real limit on effective range, which is about par for the course on epic kill spells). If necessary, Xykon could very well whip out "Xykon's Absolute Meatbag Termination" and kill Tarquin so hard that a horrified Elan will watch his hand fade while Doc Brown screams about flux capacitors. Spells that come out of epic spell slots tend to not be stopped by silly things like death wards, fortitutde saves, and fire resistance...

Will that happen? Probably not. It makes for a poor story and raises the question of how Roy will survive any future fight for more than one round. But asking how Xkyon is going to hurt a charming and intelligent sub-epic fighter is like asking how silver-age Superman is going to stop a bank robber who happens to have some really nice gear. The possibilities are endless.

[Peelee]

I'm surprised that no one has brought this up yet, but Xykon is an Epic Level Caster.

I'm surprised at your surprise.


If he's not expecting to fight an epic-level lich

If Xykon is around level 30 (requirement for Epic Forge Ring, since he has a fire immunity ring)

Also, don't forget he has Epic Mage armor

unless there are other epic level spellcasters somewhere Xykon is probably the strongest being in the entire plane

I'd rather think his first move would be Epic Mage Armor

surprisingly, being immune to fire and having an average dex score does not let you beat an epic level lich sorcerer

[Jade_Tarem]

I'm surprised at your surprise.

:nale: It depends on who you consider a somebody.

[Peelee]

:nale: It depends on who you consider a somebody.

You make me sad, fellow Alabama person.

[Jade_Tarem]

Oh, I'm just getting started. For the record, yes. I skimmed the thread looking for the words "epic level casting," since that was the first thing that came to mind when I saw the thread title, and didn't see it, so I started off with a line that looks amusingly stupid in hindsight, and I'm sorry about that. But for entertainment purposes, I'm going to leave it there.

[Emperordaniel]

If necessary, Xykon could very well whip out "Xykon's Absolute Meatbag Termination"

Great; now I'm really, REALLY interested in seeing the stats for that one. :amused: :cool:

[Peelee]

It involves KOTOR's HK-47 as a material focus

[coineineagh]

Reading about the potential battle between X & T was really exciting! Lots of scenarios to choose from. I even learned more about D&D rules...

I don't want to be a spoilsport, but if I'm interpreting Nale & Tarquin's negotiation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) correctly, they would be interested in acquiring Team Evil's knowledge of the ritual, without which the Gate expedition would be pointless (family issues aside). Combat with Team Evil would be undesirable, I think...

[Kish]

It doesn't take two to make a battle to the death. It only takes one, though if the one who doesn't want to fight is sufficiently dedicated to not fighting the "battle" can be extremely brief and one-sided.

Why would Xykon see "Tarquin and Nale acquire knowledge of the Gate ritual" as more desirable than, "I slaughter whatshisname and whatshisname junior"?

[Emperordaniel]

Why would Xykon see "Tarquin and Nale acquire knowledge of the Gate ritual" as more desirable than, "I slaughter whatshisname and whatshisname junior"?

Shouldn't that be, "Loser and Loser Junior (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html)"? :smalltongue:

[Moglorosh]

This was likely cast on him by Malak. Even if not, Xykon can easily dispel his magic items.


Sure, Xykon can easily dispel his magic items, one at a time, for 10d6 damage per dispel.

[zimmerwald1915]

Sure, Xykon can easily dispel his magic items, one at a time, for 10d6 damage per dispel.
Why bother? Xykon only has to take out one item (assuming it's an item and not a buff that's granting Tarquin fire resistance), after which 10d6 becomes trivial compared to the amount of damage Xykon can dish out. And of course there's the aforementioned Forcecage into Cloudkill strategy, which is a guaranteed meatbag-kill given enough time.

[Forikroder]

Why bother? Xykon only has to take out one item (assuming it's an item and not a buff that's granting Tarquin fire resistance), after which 10d6 becomes trivial compared to the amount of damage Xykon can dish out. And of course there's the aforementioned Forcecage into Cloudkill strategy, which is a guaranteed meatbag-kill given enough time.

also couldnt he jsut use a regular dispel magic even if its only temporary if hes that obsessed with hitting T with meteor swarms?

[zimmerwald1915]

also couldnt he jsut use a regular dispel magic even if its only temporary if hes that obsessed with hitting T with meteor swarms?
If he knows or if he carries around a scroll or two of Dispel Magic, then yes. But we don't know that he does either, while we do know he knows Superb Dispelling. Also, why shouldn't Xykon attempt to make the most of his obscene caster level? Tarquin can't actually hurt him, and he proved during the Darth V fight that Superb Dispelling's 10d6 points of damage is trivial to him.

[Forikroder]

If he knows or if he carries around a scroll or two of Dispel Magic, then yes. But we don't know that he does either, while we do know he knows Superb Dispelling. Also, why shouldn't Xykon attempt to make the most of his obscene caster level? Tarquin can't actually hurt him, and he proved during the Darth V fight that Superb Dispelling's 10d6 points of damage is trivial to him.

just pointing out how many options he has

[Math_Mage]

On Malack's level: In order for him to be casting 9ths, he'd have to be ECL 19-20--not just equal to Redcloak, but higher. This is implausible.

The issue of XP gain rate was brought up; I feel it's rather strange to claim Redcloak's experience gain was not very fast, then admit that the only reason we know Malack gains XP at all is because Redcloak leveled in a similar situation, and finally conclude that Malack has leveled as fast as, or faster than, Redcloak.

At the end of the day, we've seen Redcloak cast Implosion and Gate, and we've seen Malack cast Blade Barrier and Harm. Redcloak is inarguably stronger than Durkon; Malack is his LG counterpart. Redcloak is an A-list villain; Malack is at best a B-list villain. It is unsupportable to say that Malack even approaches Redcloak's power level.


heres what you dont get though, it would be difficult for Haley to dodge most of Xykons spells, Tarquin is likely to take full damage from whatever Xykon choosing to throw at him and after one meteor swarm (IF he uses it he only used it against roy to destroy the dragon) hell realise T has protection from fire and use other sources of damage

and T still has absolutely no way to damage Xykon

We're talking about the guy who didn't even notice that his fire and lightning spells were doing nothing to half the ghost paladins he was fighting in Azure City. Of course, *eventually* X will try something else, and in the meantime T has basically nothing he can do about X given known capabilities.


completely wrong, he was too dumb to realise ghosts were hard to hit as soon as he knew what could hit them he started using it hes not going to throw 10 meteor swarms at tarquin and scratch his head hes going to throw (MAYBE) one meteor swarm at him then start using other spells

I feel that's a distinction without a difference. Instead of the question being how long X takes to switch spells once he knows what's more effective, the question is how long it will take X to even realize that he's being ineffective.

[zimmerwald1915]

We're talking about the guy who didn't even notice that his fire and lightning spells were doing nothing to half the ghost paladins he was fighting in Azure City. Of course, *eventually* X will try something else, and in the meantime T has basically nothing he can do about X given known capabilities.

I feel that's a distinction without a difference. Instead of the question being how long X takes to switch spells once he knows what's more effective, the question is how long it will take X to even realize that he's being ineffective.
He noticed just fine that his fire and lightning spells weren't as effective on the ghost-martyrs as they would be on living opponents. He noticed this so thoroughly that he was visibly vexed by their seeming invulnerability by the time Redcloak showed up. His problem was that he didn't know how to be more effective, or, more precisely, what tools at his disposal he could use in order to be more effective. That he didn't know how to be more effective is down, so he claims, to his not knowing the rules regarding special abilities.

Versus a living opponent employing magic items and personal buffs rather than a special ability as his primary defense, Xykon knows what to do just fine. He's used Cloudkill to great effect against living creatures in SoD (that doesn't deserve a spoiler, right?), has used Forcecage to imprison a lone opponent, and is aware of the benefits to dispelling buffs thanks to the Darth V fight. The question is not whether he'll notice Tarquin's various immunities, but whether Tarquin will push him far enough that Xykon will feel compelled to think up a winning strategy. Now, Tarquin's a consumate flatterer and diplomat, but he's also got an ego the size of the Azurite fleet and if anybody is prone to challenging Xykon's rep, it is Tarquin.

[Emanick]

On Malack's level: In order for him to be casting 9ths, he'd have to be ECL 19-20--not just equal to Redcloak, but higher. This is implausible.

Let's face it, there is really very little difference between the power level of a 17th level lizardfolk cleric and that of a 17th level goblin cleric (whether we're talking about Rich's goblins or SRD goblins). A lizardfolk character has two extra hit dice, an extra feat, +5 AC (basically a nonmagical Amulet of Natural Armor +5, which won't stack with a real Amulet), a slightly higher Strength and Constitution and a slightly lower Intelligence. It also has an extra +3 to Reflex saves. All this is not enough to make a 16th level lizardfolk cleric as powerful as a 17th level goblin cleric, let alone a 17th level lizardfolk cleric as powerful as a level 19-20 goblin cleric.

When talking about actual power levels, ECL is fairly meaningless. Lizardfolk characters are nowhere near as powerful as drow characters. So if Malack is level 17, there's no reason to consider him significantly more powerful than Redcloak.

Granted, I don't think Malack IS level 17, but even if he is, Redcloak will by no means be suddenly standing in his shadow.


At the end of the day, we've seen Redcloak cast Implosion and Gate, and we've seen Malack cast Blade Barrier and Harm. Redcloak is inarguably stronger than Durkon; Malack is his LG counterpart. Redcloak is an A-list villain; Malack is at best a B-list villain. It is unsupportable to say that Malack even approaches Redcloak's power level.

Until strip 400+ we had no idea Xykon had 9th level spell slots; we later discover that he has 12th level slots. Furthermore, it seems that he had most of this power before the comic even began.

The Giant rarely shows a character at his/her full strength until the plot deems it necessary. Thus far, the plot has not deemed it necessary; nor would it place much of a strain on credulity if Malack had been packing 9th level spells all along. He simply hasn't needed to use them yet. The argument that Malack must have hit Nale with the highest-level spell in his book is weak at best, even taking into account his apparent loss of self-control in that scene. Harm and Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds was a great tactical choice; an angry Malack does not necessarily mean a stupid Malack.

I think it implausible that Malack is weaker than Durkon. He's been consistently presented as stronger, and again, being a lizardfolk does not matter much when you're a high-level cleric. There's only a 3-level gap between Durkon and Redcloak; that doesn't leave much room for a character significantly stronger than Durkon but significantly weaker than Redcloak.

I think Malack, like Tarquin, is probably around level 16. This leaves room for him to be a "B-lister" but still present a huge threat to Durkon. Nothing else makes much dramatic sense to me.

[Forikroder]

We're talking about the guy who didn't even notice that his fire and lightning spells were doing nothing to half the ghost paladins he was fighting in Azure City. Of course, *eventually* X will try something else, and in the meantime T has basically nothing he can do about X given known capabilities.

a spell doing nothing to a ghost wouldnt be odd for him becuase he didnt even know what thay were

but Tarquins a flesh and blood human, hed see the explosion, hed see the lack of singed skin and realise to use other spells

but as i pointed out numerous times, Xykon does not spam meteor swarms, he uses other spells so even if he doesnt realise hes immmune to fire hed still be throwing out other spells


Thus far, the plot has not deemed it necessary; nor would it place much of a strain on credulity if Malack had been packing 9th level spells all along.

looking at it from a story telling perspective, theres no way Malack has 9th level spells, if he can throw out 9th level spells then that puts tarquin at the epic level too, so its going to be 2 epic level adventurers, and 3 adventurers at the same level of the OoTS when OoTS is missing a member, thats not a fight they can conceivably win and it means Tarquin and Malack are packing more firepower then Xykon (well not really but very very close)

plus if Malack was that strong, forget his inability to kill Nale, what about Elan so easily escaping him? there has been 2 times in the comic when "nale" (once as elan and once the legit nale) escaped Malack if he was an epic level cleric that shouldnt have happened

Tarquin is just a villain hes not the final boss

[Emanick]

looking at it from a story telling perspective, theres no way Malack has 9th level spells, if he can throw out 9th level spells then that puts tarquin at the epic level too, so its going to be 2 epic level adventurers, and 3 adventurers at the same level of the OoTS when OoTS is missing a member, thats not a fight they can conceivably win and it means Tarquin and Malack are packing more firepower then Xykon (well not really but very very close)

plus if Malack was that strong, forget his inability to kill Nale, what about Elan so easily escaping him? there has been 2 times in the comic when "nale" (once as elan and once the legit nale) escaped Malack if he was an epic level cleric that shouldnt have happened

Tarquin is just a villain hes not the final boss
Um, having 9th level spells =/= being epic. You can be packing Implosions like Redcloak and still be four solid levels away from 21.

We've been given the impression that Tarquin and Malack are more powerful than the OOTS, who are around level 14-15 (Belkar, according to Geekery, is level 16). While I'm not convinced that Tarquin and Malack are level 17+, I have a difficult time picturing them as much lower than 16.

I have no idea how Nale & co. escaped Malack and Tarquin a few years ago. They're no match for them even today; how could they possibly presume to challenge Tarquin's team when they were still level 7ish? That's a mystery that nobody has yet managed to solve (and which will probably remain unsolved, since it's unimportant).

But clearly they did escape, and as such I have no difficulty in believing that Elan, V and Haley were able to evade Malack and Tarquin for... what, two rounds? After getting hit by a Blade Barrier?

[Forikroder]

I have no idea how Nale & co. escaped Malack and Tarquin a few years ago. They're no match for them even today; how could they possibly presume to challenge Tarquin's team when they were still level 7ish? That's a mystery that nobody has yet managed to solve (and which will probably remain unsolved, since it's unimportant).

But clearly they did escape, and as such I have no difficulty in believing that Elan, V and Haley were able to evade Malack and Tarquin for... what, two rounds? After getting hit by a Blade Barrier?

Actually they evaded Malack forever, Malack had absolutely no ability to chase or capture them and his spells were too weak to prevent there escape


Um, having 9th level spells =/= being epic. You can be packing Implosions like Redcloak and still be four solid levels away from 21.

well i consider epic level to be lvl 20 not lvl 21

and since Malack has Level Adjustment +3 i believe and clerics get 9th level spells at lvl 17 he would be lvl 20 (therefore his entire party is also at lvl 20)

[Emanick]

Actually they evaded Malack forever, Malack had absolutely no ability to chase or capture them and his spells were too weak to prevent there escape

Here's what happened:
1. Malack cast Blade Barrier, a spell that could easily have killed Nale if he hadn't gained, like, seven levels since fleeing the Empire of Blood.
2. OOTS runs through the Blade Barrier and meets Tarquin, who takes control of the situation.
3. One round later (or more, if you want to assume that Malack wasted time doing nothing for no reason), Malack dismisses the Blade Barrier and tells the bounty hunters to do his dirty work for him and re-catch Nale & co., which they have already proven themselves capable of doing and which he has no reason to believe they cannot do again.
4. Immediately after they refuse to obey him (one panel later, to be precise), Tarquin returns with Elan and Vaarsuvius, solving the problem.

At no point in this sequence did Malack prove himself impotent in any way. He certainly did not demonstrate himself to have "absolutely no ability to chase or capture them," nor did the OOTS evade him "forever."


well i consider epic level to be lvl 20 not lvl 21
That's fine, as long as you don't mind being wrong. Level 21 is epic, level 20 is not. That's as clear cut as the fact that fighters have full BAB progression, or the fact that wizards tend to cast spells.


and since Malack has Level Adjustment +3 i believe and clerics get 9th level spells at lvl 17 he would be lvl 20 (therefore his entire party is also at lvl 20)
Lizardfolk have level adjustment +1, which when coupled with their base CR of 1 makes a level 17 lizardfolk character ECL 19. As I've already demonstrated, it is ridiculous to consider a lizardfolk cleric at level 17 substantially more powerful than, say, a goblin cleric of the same level, because most advantageous lizardfolk traits are meaningless at that point and the only one that continues to be important can be duplicated or surpassed by a relatively cheap magic item (the Amulet of Natural Armor). Lizardfolk aren't drow, which with their scalable Spell Resistance are always significantly more powerful than the typical humanoid character of comparable level.

So if we're going on the assumption that Tarquin's team is composed of members with similar power levels, Malack's race is unimportant.

[Forikroder]

At no point in this sequence did Malack prove himself impotent in any way. He certainly did not demonstrate himself to have "absolutely no ability to chase or capture them," nor did the OOTS evade him "forever."

if Malack had the ability to try and chase them himself he would have instead of relying on mooks

its kinda funny that people assume that Malack is low level because he didnt use an implosion to kill Nale but his not trying to chase "Nale" after he escapes the throne room is jsut him being too lazy and leaving it to mooks



So if we're going on the assumption that Tarquin's team is composed of members with similar power levels, Malack's race is unimportant.

no because we have to assume that Malack is the same effective level as everyone else, so if Malack is a lvl 17 cleric then we have to assume Tarquin is a lvl 19 fighter (or whatever class he is)

i really dont get why you keep bringing up how worthless his racial traits are since i dont see how they facter at all into this conversation and your the only person who ever trys to mention them

also i fail to see how lvl 20 is jsut another boring lvl but 21 is all of a sudden epic

[rgrekejin]

no because we have to assume that Malack is the same effective level as everyone else, so if Malack is a lvl 17 cleric then we have to assume Tarquin is a lvl 19 fighter (or whatever class he is)

i really dont get why you keep bringing up how worthless his racial traits are since i dont see how they facter at all into this conversation and your the only person who ever trys to mention them

Do you actually play D&D, Forikroder? I'm not attempting to be mean or anything, I just think that may be the crux of the misunderstanding.

Here's the thing: They are bringing up racial traits because racial traits are the entire reason for level adjustments. Lizardfolk don't have a higher effective level than everyone else just for fun, they have a higher effective level because they have racial traits which theoretically make them more powerful than a character of their level would normally be. Since Malack's racial traits don't really give him any real advantage over another cleric of the same level, then even though his effective level is mathematically, say, 19, he is really only as powerful as any other level 17 cleric. So when we're talking about all of the members of Tarquin's party having roughly the same power levels, if they had a effective character level (ECL) 19 human wizard, an ECL 19 human fighter, an ECL 19 catfolk rogue, and an ECL 19 lizardfolk cleric, the lizardfolk, despite having the same ECL, would be weaker than the others, because two of their effective character levels are being eaten up by level adjustment and racial hit dice that don't actually give them any real advantage. So when we say that all the members of Tarquin's party are of the same approximate power level, that in no way implies that they must all be the same effective level. By the rules, maybe. But in reality, things often don't work that way.


also i fail to see how lvl 20 is jsut another boring lvl but 21 is all of a sudden epic

It's because once you hit level 21, you get access to Epic feats. Which really put just about everything else in the game to shame.

For Instance:

Epic Toughness: You gain 30 hit points.

Fast Healing: You gain fast healing 3.

Multispell: You can cast one additional Quickened Spell per round.

Polyglot: You speak all languages.

And those aren't even particularly good ones. Also, if you're a spellcaster, you can get access to Epic spells. Epic spells are simply far more powerful than they have any right to be.

[Forikroder]

Do you actually play D&D, Forikroder? I'm not attempting to be mean or anything, I just think that may be the crux of the misunderstanding.

Here's the thing: They are bringing up racial traits because racial traits are the entire reason for level adjustments. Lizardfolk don't have a higher effective level than everyone else just for fun, they have a higher effective level because they have racial traits which theoretically make them more powerful than a character of their level would normally be. Since Malack's racial traits don't really give him any real advantage over another cleric of the same level, then even though his effective level is mathematically, say, 19, he is really only as powerful as any other level 17 cleric. So when we're talking about all of the members of Tarquin's party having roughly the same power levels, if they had a effective character level (ECL) 19 human wizard, an ECL 19 human fighter, an ECL 19 catfolk rogue, and an ECL 19 lizardfolk cleric, the lizardfolk, despite having the same ECL, would be weaker than the others, because two of their effective character levels are being eaten up by level adjustment and racial hit dice that don't actually give them any real advantage. So when we say that all the members of Tarquin's party are of the same approximate power level, that in no way implies that they must all be the same effective level. By the rules, maybe. But in reality, things often don't work that way.

all of which has absolutely nothing at all to do with what i said to you in any way

if Malack can cast 9th level spells then we have to assume that Tarquin is at least a lvl 19 fighter, thats what i said i wasnt talking about how strong Malack is or how much of a benefit he gets from his race all im saying is if Malack is lvl 17 cleric then Tarquin is a lvl 19 fighter

and for the record, i have played DnD but not that much really i played some with my friends back in higschool but taht was a few years ago and my attempts to find a group to play with have all failed miserably but i probably read the palyers handbook like 5 times while i was playing with my friends so im pretty sure i have a good grasp on 3.5 at least

[Emanick]

if Malack had the ability to try and chase them himself he would have instead of relying on mooks

its kinda funny that people assume that Malack is low level because he didnt use an implosion to kill Nale but his not trying to chase "Nale" after he escapes the throne room is jsut him being too lazy and leaving it to mooks
Um, he had no reason to clean up his lackeys' mess for them, especially because it was one he had every reason to assume they could take care of by themselves. He "relied on mooks" for exactly one panel, the panel in which he dismissed the Blade Barrier and asked Ganjii and Enor to chase the Order, because it made his life easier and prevented him from expending energy and power on a situation that did not require said energy and power.

Would you say that in the Dungeon of Dorukan, Xykon had no ability to defeat the Order because he let his mooks fight the mean invading adventurers, rather than going out to engage the enemy instead? Of course not. He simply didn't want to do what he didn't need to do.


no because we have to assume that Malack is the same effective level as everyone else, so if Malack is a lvl 17 cleric then we have to assume Tarquin is a lvl 19 fighter (or whatever class he is)

i really dont get why you keep bringing up how worthless his racial traits are since i dont see how they facter at all into this conversation and your the only person who ever trys to mention them

also i fail to see how lvl 20 is jsut another boring lvl but 21 is all of a sudden epic
Why do we have to assume that Malack is the same "effective level" as everybody else? This is nothing but your assumption, and I have no idea where you're getting it from.

I keep bringing up his racial traits because racial traits are the reason why Malack has a level adjustment. Level adjustments, for all their merits, are often broken at high levels. To say that Malack's level adjustment makes Malack Tarquin's equal when he is lower level than his boss is to be wrong. If you read the rules literally, this would be technically the case, but only because the rules don't take into account power scaling. The Giant is unlikely to make his savvy, competent characters base their group dynamics around a rules technicality that is utterly insignificant.

I assume that I'm the only person to mention them because I was the first person that realized how unimportant lizardfolk level adjustments are at level 15-17 or so. Since then, nobody has posted besides me and you; arguing that I'm defending a minority position is rather hopeless in a discussion with only two participants.

Why is the level you become epic at important? Because being epic has concrete game benefits; it's not merely a label to bestow honor upon you. You can't take epic feats, which are more powerful than normal feats, until level 21. You can't get epic spells until level 21. There are items and special abilities that require you to be epic in order to use them. Being epic is a pretty big deal, especially if you're a spellcaster like Redcloak or Malack. But nobody thinks Malack is epic, so the epic rules are irrelevant to our discussion.

[Knaight]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) seems relevant to the thread. Specifically, the panel where the spells Xykon has that O-chul has personally seen is of note.

[rgrekejin]

if Malack can cast 9th level spells then we have to assume that Tarquin is at least a lvl 19 fighter, thats what i said i wasnt talking about how strong Malack is or how much of a benefit he gets from his race all im saying is if Malack is lvl 17 cleric then Tarquin is a lvl 19 fighter

If Malack can cast 9th level spells, he must be at least a level 17 cleric. But Malack's effective character level is treated as being two levels higher than his class level because he is a lizardfolk. Why is that? Because of the racial bonuses he gets. If his racial bonuses are worthless at this level (hint: they are) then there is no reason to treat Malack's effective character level as two levels higher than 17. Malack can be level 17, and Tarquin can also be level 17. See how neatly that works? If the entire rationale for Malack's ECL being two higher than normal is invalid at this level, then there is no reason to assume that Tarquin must be two levels higher than him in order for them to be at approximately the same power level. In short: how much benefit he gets from his race has everything to do with it, and you can't just ignore it.

[Forikroder]

If Malack can cast 9th level spells, he must be at least a level 17 cleric. But Malack's effective character level is treated as being two levels higher than his class level because he is a lizardfolk. Why is that? Because of the racial bonuses he gets. If his racial bonuses are worthless at this level (hint: they are) then there is no reason to treat Malack's effective character level as two levels higher than 17. Malack can be level 17, and Tarquin can also be level 17. See how neatly that works? If the entire rationale for Malack's ECL being two higher than normal is invalid at this level, then there is no reason to assume that Tarquin must be two levels higher than him in order for them to be at approximately the same power level. In short: how much benefit he gets from his race has everything to do with it, and you can't just ignore it.

no thats not how it works

regardless of how worthless his 2 levels in lizardfolk are they still exist and still mean it takes more xp for him to get to the next level therefore once he gets to the point where he can cast 9th level spells (cleric level 17) everyone else in his party is character lvl 19 (unless they also have LA)

its not about power level its about actual level, the DnD system is designed to keep everyone in a party at the same level by giving more XP to lower level characters in the party to help them catch up so we have to assume that everyone is Tarquins party is the same level, EREGO if Malack has 9th level spells, Tarquin is lvl 19 and also more powerful then Malack*

*all assuming Rich gave a **** about LA and didnt jsut completely hand wave all of that and is not counting any of Malacks racial bonuses and just having his cleric level be actual level which is pretty likely

[rgrekejin]

no thats not how it works

regardless of how worthless his 2 levels in lizardfolk are they still exist and still mean it takes more xp for him to get to the next level therefore once he gets to the point where he can cast 9th level spells (cleric level 17) everyone else in his party is character lvl 19 (unless they also have LA)


You'll notice that I addressed this in my earlier post. Strictly speaking, by the rules (and assuming that the alternate rules for level-adjustment buyoffs are not in effect, which they might be) you are correct, and that is in fact how it would work for a party of PCs. You will, however, have noticed that Malack and Tarquin are rather explicitly NPCs, and can thus be at whatever level of power the DM (or, in this case, the author) decides it is appropriate for them to have. A savvy DM would likely know that, at high levels, the bonuses that cause a Lizardfolk to have a level adjustment are really rather meaningless. Therefore, when writing up a character sheet for his Lizardfolk cleric, he would likely disregard them, or deal with them in some other way than arbitrarily deciding that the cleric in his evil party of NPC adventurers is empirically weaker than the rest of his compatriots for no discernible reason.

[Forikroder]

You'll notice that I addressed this in my earlier post. Strictly speaking, by the rules (and assuming that the alternate rules for level-adjustment buyoffs are not in effect, which they might be) that is in fact how it would work for a party of PCs. You will, however, have noticed that Malack and Tarquin are rather explicitly NPCs, and can thus be at whatever level of power the DM (or, in this case, the author) decides it is appropriate for them to have. A savvy DM would likely know that, at high levels, the bonuses that cause a Lizardfolk to have a level adjustment are really rather meaningless. Therefore, when writing up a character sheet for his Lizardfolk cleric, he would likely disregard them, or deal with them in some other way than arbitrarily deciding that the cleric in his evil party of NPC adventurers is empirically weaker than the rest of his compatriots for no discernible reason.

and youll notice i adressed that in my last post too

but my point remains, we have to assume (since thats what weve been told) that OoTS follows the rules of DnD unless otherwised mentioned (or it becomes obvious that a rule has been bent) therefore if we know for a fact that Malack has X levels in cleric we know Tarquin has X+2 levels in fighter

[rgrekejin]

but my point remains, we have to assume (since thats what weve been told) that OoTS follows the rules of DnD unless otherwised mentioned (or it becomes obvious that a rule has been bent) therefore if we know for a fact that Malack has X levels in cleric we know Tarquin has X+2 levels in fighter

...and why, exactly, are we assuming that Tarquin and Malack are of precisely identical effective level? They're probably close, granted, but not even all the members of the OotS are at the same level. For that matter, we don't even know for a fact that Tarquin's class is Fighter. I think that it is, but we should reserve the title of "fact" only for things that we actually know to be facts, not for the provisional hypothesis we form while waiting for more complete information to become available (sorry, scientist-training... it's reflexive).

Anyway, further discussion of this topic should probably be routed through the Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230935&page=40) thread, where they do this sort of thing for a living.

[Peelee]

The issue of XP gain rate was brought up; I feel it's rather strange to claim Redcloak's experience gain was not very fast, then admit that the only reason we know Malack gains XP at all is because Redcloak leveled in a similar situation, and finally conclude that Malack has leveled as fast as, or faster than, Redcloak.

As the one who brought up that point, I feel the need to defend it. I'm rather surprised, sir, that with your name you would misunderstand what I meant in this way. I brought up that we know Malak gains xp ruling because red cloak did, albeit slowly. I meant to imply that Malack would have gotten more, not due to earning it faster, but due to ruling for longer. As stated, it's likely not a very large or fast way of gaining XP, but it is continuous. Before ruling, Malack adventures just like Redcloak, and both are very old, giving them lots of time for adventuring, and thus leveling. I did not mean to imply that Malack gained XP faster, only that he would have gained it for a longer period of time.

[Kish]

I brought up that we know Malak gains xp ruling because red cloak did, albeit slowly.
Actually, considering the general lack of fourth wall in OotS, I think it's entirely possible that Redcloak, from a Watsonian as well as Doylist perspective, simply got a "time for the second main villain to bust out the 9th-level spells, you'll be moving up to level 17 now" memo--without ever actually bothering with that pesky XP stuff.

[zimmerwald1915]

As the one who brought up that point, I feel the need to defend it. I'm rather surprised, sir, that with your name you would misunderstand what I meant in this way. I brought up that we know Malak gains xp ruling because red cloak did, albeit slowly.
We know nothing of the kind. One does not gain XP from verbing, no matter how arduous the verbing in question might sound in the abstract, but from overcoming specific challenges in the course of verbing. Saying that Redcloak and Malack would both have gained XP from ruling is akin to saying that one adventurer would have gained XP from running through the Tomb of Horrors and another would have gained XP from running through Rivers Run Red. The natures, frequencies, and difficulties of the problems they're presented with are entirely at odds with one another. Redcloak is the self-declared nerve center of an operation meant to crush a civilization beneath the heels of a conquering army while at the same time molding that army into a people with nationalistic feeling and keeping that army's omnicidal allies in check. He has every spell slot and half-hour planned out in his head and on paper. Malack has time in his day to futz around on Macebook, a luxury that the problems Redcloak has taken on himself to deal with won't permit him.

Compare, too, Shojo and the King of Nowhere. Shojo foiled assassins with cunning and forethought. The King of Nowhere is alive now thanks to dumb luck. Shojo at the time of his death was level 14. How high-level do you think the King of Nowhere was? Consider especially that whoever wanted the King of Nowhere dead was confident that two assassins who could be defeated by half the Order could eliminate him.

[Zarzar]

Honestly, I think it would come down to more of "How could Xykon care enough to mess with Tarquin's head", because as unlikely as the two of them fighting would actually be, Xykon really couldn't care less about "minor" competition like Tarquin.

I'd like to think that an Evil on Evil fight would go like this:

Tarquin and Elan wake up, chained to a table in a dark room.

:mitd: Oh, hi guys! You're awake! Xykon told me to put on a movie for you to watch! *grabs popcorn*
:xykon: (From a crystal ball, with red face paint on) Hello fleshbags. We're going to play a game. On the table in front of you are magic rings, some of which might be able to get you out of this room. Don't be shy, there are enough to win the game. If you find the right ones, you can go free. If you don't choose a ring, the thing in the dark there is going to have a tea party!
:mitd: Oh boy! I get to play with Mr. Woodchipper??!!??
:xykon: (/facepalm) Sure. Paint the walls red with your new friends and I'll buy you ice cream. Or a pony. Shut up.
:mitd: Yay!
:xykon: (/facepalm) *cough* Ahem. You only have 2 minutes to decide. Make your choice.

(Tarquin and Elan put on rings. Elan's rings are a +20 ring of invisibility and +40 ring of Houdini-ish shackle escaping. Tarquin's are a ring with symbol of insanity and another that produces hallucinations. Elan sneaks away, unable to see anything in the dark, singing like an idiot. Tarquin goes crazy for a moment, thinks he's beheaded Elan, and drops to his knees crying.)

:xykon: Well done, Tarquin. You've gone and killed your own boy. I bet you feel so great as a magnificent bastard, killing the son that actually loved you.
Tarquin continues to weep, actually believing that he's killed Elan.
:xykon: Now you're as soulless as I am. *mass spam energy drain* *raise dead*

[lio45]

Actually, considering the general lack of fourth wall in OotS, I think it's entirely possible that Redcloak, from a Watsonian as well as Doylist perspective, simply got a "time for the second main villain to bust out the 9th-level spells, you'll be moving up to level 17 now" memo--without ever actually bothering with that pesky XP stuff.

Exactly... Count me among those who don't get all the talk about comparing the XP gain rates considering it's already been established in comic that characters might earn plenty XP without having to lift a finger (Crystal leveling up playing cards).

Redcloak is a Class A villain, he'll always be more powerful than Malack. That's how these kind of stories work. And the Oracle's mama was wrong: XP actually does gain itself, if the story calls for it. ;)

[Forikroder]

...and why, exactly, are we assuming that Tarquin and Malack are of precisely identical effective level? They're probably close, granted, but not even all the members of the OotS are at the same level. For that matter, we don't even know for a fact that Tarquin's class is Fighter. I think that it is, but we should reserve the title of "fact" only for things that we actually know to be facts, not for the provisional hypothesis we form while waiting for more complete information to become available (sorry, scientist-training... it's reflexive).

i dont see any reason to pick about his class, its alot easier to jsut call him a fighter then every time just say "and has X levels in one or more PC classes which most likely contain but are not limited to at least one melee class that allows him to wear heavy armour and use a 2 handed axe"

alot easier jsut to say fighter since every sinlg scrap of evidence we have about Tarquin points to him being a fighter

[Emanick]

Exactly... Count me among those who don't get all the talk about comparing the XP gain rates considering it's already been established in comic that characters might earn plenty XP without having to lift a finger (Crystal leveling up playing cards).

Redcloak is a Class A villain, he'll always be more powerful than Malack. That's how these kind of stories work. And the Oracle's mama was wrong: XP actually does gain itself, if the story calls for it. ;)

I think it would be more correct to say "Redcloak is a Class A villain; he'll be more powerful than Malack if the two come into contact." OOTS has had some radically strong "one-off" characters appear from time to time. The ancient silver dragon was epic and was dispatched in a bonus strip. The balor-like devil the Order fought was defeated fairly quickly, despite being probably more powerful than Redcloak. Bozzok was about level 19, considerably stronger than Redcloak in terms of absolute levels, yet he was decidedly Class B.

If Redcloak comes into contact with Malack, our favorite crimson-mantled goblin will almost certainly prevail if and when a battle ensues. But if not, Malack is free to be as powerful as Rich wants him to be. (Technically, everyone is. But you know what I mean.)

[Forikroder]

I think it would be more correct to say "Redcloak is a Class A villain; he'll be more powerful than Malack if the two come into contact." OOTS has had some radically strong "one-off" characters appear from time to time. The ancient silver dragon was epic and was dispatched in a bonus strip. The balor-like devil the Order fought was defeated fairly quickly, despite being probably more powerful than Redcloak. Bozzok was about level 19, considerably stronger than Redcloak in terms of absolute levels, yet he was decidedly Class B.

If Redcloak comes into contact with Malack, our favorite crimson-mantled goblin will almost certainly prevail if and when a battle ensues. But if not, Malack is free to be as powerful as Rich wants him to be. (Technically, everyone is. But you know what I mean.)

also power isnt just in spell levels, power can also take the form of taking control of your opponents wights without them noticing and "controlling" an epic level Lich

Redcloak and Malack could be the same level but Redcloak could still be more powerful

[rgrekejin]

i dont see any reason to pick about his class, its alot easier to jsut call him a fighter then every time just say "and has X levels in one or more PC classes which most likely contain but are not limited to at least one melee class that allows him to wear heavy armour and use a 2 handed axe"

alot easier jsut to say fighter since every sinlg scrap of evidence we have about Tarquin points to him being a fighter

Ah, but when you say we know something "for a fact" or invoke the phrase "100% certain", we expect to, you know, actually know those things to be fact, or that we really can be 100% certain of the thing under discussion. Granted, all the evidence points to Tarquin being a fighter, and I'd be shocked if he turned out to be something else, but it is still technically possible at this point for Tarquin to simply be the world's most pimped-out commoner (never mind the fact that there are still people on these forums who seriously maintain that he may in fact have martial adept levels). Contrast that with Roy, who has stated repeatedly that he is a fighter, and we have authorial confirmation that that is in fact his class. Roy is a fighter, we can be as certain about that as it is possible to be about anything in the comic. My point was, we can't even be certain that Tarquin's class even is fighter, let alone that his level has to be Malack's level +2, so saying that "we know it for a fact" is simply the wrong way to convey the idea.

Edit: Yes, I know that you are probably just using these as figures of speech, but misuse of the word "fact" is a pet peeve of mine.

[Forikroder]

Ah, but when you say we know something "for a fact" or invoke the phrase "100% certain", we expect to, you know, actually know those things to be fact, or that we really can be 100% certain of the thing under discussion. Granted, all the evidence points to Tarquin being a fighter, and I'd be shocked if he turned out to be something else, but it is still technically possible at this point for Tarquin to simply be the world's most pimped-out commoner (never mind the fact that there are still people on these forums who seriously maintain that he may in fact have martial adept levels). Contrast that with Roy, who has stated repeatedly that he is a fighter, and we have authorial confirmation that that is in fact his class. Roy is a fighter, we can be as certain about that as it is possible to be about anything in the comic. My point was, we can't even be certain that Tarquin's class even is fighter, let alone that his level has to be Malack's level +2, so saying that "we know it for a fact" is simply the wrong way to convey the idea.

Edit: Yes, I know that you are probably just using these as figures of speech, but misuse of the word "fact" is a pet peeve of mine.
i never said we know as a fact he was a fighter i was only reffering to we have to assume that if Malack shoots out a 9th lvl spell we have to assume that Tarquin is lvl 19

i dont see why your getting to heated about what im saying i have never said that it is 100% certain Tarquin is a fighter (though it is 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% likely he is a fighter) and i never said that it is 100% likely that Rich even bothered to care about racial traits and level adjustment (sure hasnt stopped Z from pumping out nice spells against V)

all i have ever said is Tarquin is a fighter (because there is literally no reason at all to even suspect he sint) and following DnD rules Tarquin is 2 levels higher then Malack (though i did say that its likely that rule got handwaved)

i honestly dont get why your trying to nitpick so much i understand pet peeves and all but it should be painfully obvious (considering how many times i said it) that i never ever tried to asert anything i said as complete fact

[rgrekejin]

therefore if we know for a fact that Malack has X levels in cleric we know Tarquin has X+2 levels in fighter


i never said we know as a fact he was a fighter i was only reffering to we have to assume that if Malack shoots out a 9th lvl spell we have to assume that Tarquin is lvl 19

That may be what you meant, but it is not, in fact, what you wrote. I can only go by the words you actually type.

[Forikroder]

That may be what you meant, but it is not, in fact, what you wrote. I can only go by the words you actually type.

all i said was we know he has X+2 levels if Malack has is level X which is completely true because we know through word of god that the story follows DnD rules unless it doesnt since we have no evidence that in this scenario the rules have been smudged we can say with 100% accuracy taht Tarquin has 2 more PC levels then Malack

[Peelee]

all i said was we know he has X+2 levels if Malack has is level X which is completely true because we know through word of god that the story follows DnD rules unless it doesnt since we have no evidence that in this scenario the rules have been smudged we can say with 100% accuracy taht Tarquin has 2 more PC levels then Malack

You tell me what book and what page I can find the rule that says "all adventurers in a party are the same level." Death, spells that require XP cost, permanent level drains, and so on are several ways for party members to not necessarily be the exact level as the rest of the party. Stop arguing that a rule dictates they must be the same level when no such rule exists.

[Peelee]

Actually, considering the general lack of fourth wall in OotS, I think it's entirely possible that Redcloak, from a Watsonian as well as Doylist perspective, simply got a "time for the second main villain to bust out the 9th-level spells, you'll be moving up to level 17 now" memo--without ever actually bothering with that pesky XP stuff.


[SPOILER]We know nothing of the kind. One does not gain XP from verbing, no matter how arduous the verbing in question might sound in the abstract, but from overcoming specific challenges in the course of verbing. Saying that Redcloak and Malack would both have gained XP from ruling is akin to saying that one adventurer would have gained XP from running through the Tomb of Horrors and another would have gained XP from running through Rivers Run Red. The natures, frequencies, and difficulties of the problems they're presented with are entirely at odds with one another. Redcloak is the self-declared nerve center of an operation meant to crush a civilization beneath the heels of a conquering army while at the same time molding that army into a people with nationalistic feeling and keeping that army's omnicidal allies in check. He has every spell slot and half-hour planned out in his head and on paper. Malack has time in his day to futz around on Macebook, a luxury that the problems Redcloak has taken on himself to deal with won't permit him.

Compare, too, Shojo and the King of Nowhere. Shojo foiled assassins with cunning and forethought. The King of Nowhere is alive now thanks to dumb luck. Shojo at the time of his death was level 14. How high-level do you think the King of Nowhere was? Consider especially that whoever wanted the King of Nowhere dead was confident that two assassins who could be defeated by half the Order could eliminate him.

Points taken. I am unable to sufficiently claim that Malack has any reason to be equivocal level to Redcloak.

[Forikroder]

You tell me what book and what page I can find the rule that says "all adventurers in a party are the same level." Death, spells that require XP cost, permanent level drains, and so on are several ways for party members to not necessarily be the exact level as the rest of the party. Stop arguing that a rule dictates they must be the same level when no such rule exists.

the rules are designed to help characters who have fallen behind the party catch up

like ive said since no evidence at all exists that any member has fallen behind we have to assume there all the same level

while it is possible that Malack and Tarquin are not at the same level there is no evidence at all to suggest they are different levels and we have evidence (through the DnD rules) that they are at the same level therefore there is no reason to assume they arent

[Peelee]

the rules are designed to help characters who have fallen behind the party catch up

like ive said since no evidence at all exists that any member has fallen behind we have to assume there all the same level

No, we really don't. We can assume they are fairly close in level, but that does not mean they absolutely 100% have to be the same level, which is what you are asserting. Also, we know painfully little about them. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, I believe is the phrase.

[Forikroder]

No, we really don't. We can assume they are fairly close in level, but that does not mean they absolutely 100% have to be the same level, which is what you are asserting. Also, we know painfully little about them. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, I believe is the phrase.

your right they dont absolutely have to be

but since we have no evidence to say they arent we have to assume they are or else were jsut making things up to support our arguments

[Whiffet]

your right they dont absolutely have to be

but since we have no evidence to say they arent we have to assume they are or else were jsut making things up to support our arguments

No, the way it works is that if you have no evidence, you don't assume anything. You don't assume they aren't the same level, but you don't assume they are the same level either. You can speculate and make it clear you're speculating, but that's very different from an assumption.

And don't say your evidence is the DnD rules. There is a difference between "the game is set up so lower-level party members can catch up instead of be left behind forever" and "all party members MUST be the same level!!" As others have pointed out to you, the rules are not evidence that Tarquin and Malack are the same level.

[Jade_Tarem]

Building on some of the comments concerning villains from a storytelling perspective...

If we assume that Rich Burlew built his villains for this campaign the same way he builds them in his Villain Workshop (see the Gaming section of the website), then once he established motivations and themes for his characters he probably got his various bad guys slotted into "levels" (not the DnD definition of 'level') according to scope and scale. Enemies like the bandits and Samantha are local-scale enemies: they threaten the nearby towns, are just powerful enough to give the (scattered) OOTS party trouble, and stopped being a threat once they were defeated the first time. Enemies like Miko and the Linear Guild are personal-scale enemies - they may have other life goals, of course, but as far as the party is concerned these characters are out to get them, specifically, and will show up as recurring villains time and again. How they're handled is different, given that actually killing Miko would produce more in the way of problems (it's kind of hard to explain how you're the good guy to a random group of paladins when you've just killed a member of their order) than beating up the Linear Guild again, but their influence on the plot is similar.

Moving up, we have Tarquin and Co., who are relevent on a continental scale. Once you can actually mint your own money and whistle up an army of mooks, you've got a lot more in the way of options when it comes to harassing the PCs - countered by the fact that you have to rely on lesser characters to carry out your plans, since even high-level characters can't be everywhere at once and, let's face it, your plans are big enough that you've gotta have a little bureaucracy by now.

Then we have Xykon and Redcloak, who are aiming to take over the world in true A-list villain style. These are the bad guys who know more about the MacGuffin in the prologue than the PC's will by the beginning of the third act. They're powerful and nasty, they have all the fun toys when it comes to high or epic-level magic and gear, and they too can whip up a jackbooted undead army whenever the plot calls for it.

But wait! There's one more level - the Snarl itself sits on top of them all in terms of total possible threat, being as it is a godslaying, universe-rending, multiplanar space-time abomination.

However, as the plot progresses and plans are put into action, the villains can shift scale or even merge goals, which is what's happening now. As Nale was able to team up with Tarquin, the Linear Guild suddenly became, at least temporarily, a Continental-class threat. With Tarquin aiming to learn about the gates, the entire crew is now making a bid for Global-scale villainy.

And on the other side of the ocean, we have Redcloak, who is...

Spoilered just in case.
...trying to coerce the gods themselves into giving the goblins a better role than "xp fodder" by threatening to use the snarl on them. Meaning that Redcloak may one-up Xykon and hit Multiplanar Scale before the end of the comic.

While possible, it seems unlikely that one of these sets of bad guys is going to depose another - which is likely the reason why Samantha and her father didn't end up teaming up with Miko, as this would have bumped her up a couple grades beyond what was reasonable.

So with that in mind, from a story perspective, it's unlikely that any Tarquin-vs.-Xykon confrontation would end up with Tarquin on top, and equally unlikely that Malack could whomp Redcloak.

On the subject of XP, and again from the Villain Workshop, Rich states that the villains do gain xp, but not at the rate of the party (unless they're an even-level nemesis, of course). So even accounting for the level xp-gain drag difference, the villains gain xp slower still, meaning that Redcloak didn't gain a level-adjusted amount of xp equivalent to that of the Order, which is why he's leveled once-ish to the Order's 5 or 6 levels.

[Forikroder]

No, the way it works is that if you have no evidence, you don't assume anything. You don't assume they aren't the same level, but you don't assume they are the same level either. You can speculate and make it clear you're speculating, but that's very different from an assumption.

And don't say your evidence is the DnD rules. There is a difference between "the game is set up so lower-level party members can catch up instead of be left behind forever" and "all party members MUST be the same level!!" As others have pointed out to you, the rules are not evidence that Tarquin and Malack are the same level.

yes they are its very slight evidence but its still evidence and its 10 trillion percent more evidence then you have

since theres no reason to assume there not the same level we assume they are the same level

not that there level will actually ahve any story signifigance at all of course

[Math_Mage]

yes they are its very slight evidence but its still evidence and its 10 trillion percent more evidence then you have

since theres no reason to assume there not the same level we assume they are the same level

not that there level will actually ahve any story signifigance at all of course

Since there's no reason to assume they're not of similar level, we assume they are of similar level. Saying "the same" is being too definite in the absence of substantive evidence (that is, evidence that is more than the existence of a rules mechanism that provides negative feedback against level disparities).

[Forikroder]

Since there's no reason to assume they're not of similar level, we assume they are of similar level. Saying "the same" is being too definite in the absence of substantive evidence (that is, evidence that is more than the existence of a rules mechanism that provides negative feedback against level disparities).

your right thats probably a much better thing to assume

[SadisticFishing]

Actually, absence of evidence IS evidence of absence.

If you see no evidence for something, you shift your expected probability away from that thing. I see no reason to believe that there is a giant three headed duck living far under the ocean, biding its time. I've seen no evidence against, either.

They are probably the same level, as most adventuring groups are, until we see evidence to the contrary.

So "They are probably all the same, or similar levels" is so far the hypothesis that best fits the data.

Just my 2 platinum.

[lesser_minion]

My overall impression is that Tarquin et al. are in the same level range as the Order, but probably better-built. I think it's also possible that they're over-equipped; the Order is under-equipped; or both.


Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds is a far more specific spell to have prepared** for Nale than Implosion would be. If Malack can cast any spells two levels above the highest spell level he's demonstrated, and has power equal to the second main villain of the comic, both of which strike me as really unlikely.

I don't expect Malack to be able to cast 9th-level spells, but this is wrong.

Instantly killing someone is something any cleric can do from 9th level. Implosion does very little to improve on this -- it offers a harder save DC, it has a (very short) range, and it doesn't count as a death effect (meaning that the victim is less likely to be immune, but easier to raise). You can use it more than once, but that's no faster than simply casting another spell. Redcloak prepared it because he knew he was going to be in a situation where it would be helpful. Most clerics wouldn't, whether they could cast it or not.

In contrast, the combo Malack used is cheap, and it's guaranteed to completely wreck anyone who isn't protected against it because the comic uses 3.0 Harm.

There is no reason at all to assume that Malack is somehow more likely to have implosion prepared than quickened inflict moderate wounds, or even any reason to believe that Malack had to prepare it -- there are ways to cast spontaneous spells using metamagic without lengthening the casting time.

[Kish]

the comic uses 3.0 Harm.
Sorry? What's your basis for believing this?

[lio45]

I see no reason to believe that there is a giant three headed duck living far under the ocean, biding its time. I've seen no evidence against, either.

Actually, you have. If you've been looking around, you must have observed that animals all happen to have one head. So there must be huge evolutionary penalties against splitting a creatures' brainpower and nerve network into more than one single casing. Plus, the steps along that way would be horribly uneffective (early twin head mutation = a lot of redundancy).

So yep, plenty of actual evidence to be seen against the possibility of finding a giant three-headed anything out there.

Otherwise though, I 100% agree with the point you were making.

[Knaight]

Actually, you have. If you've been looking around, you must have observed that animals all happen to have one head. So there must be huge evolutionary penalties against splitting a creatures' brainpower and nerve network into more than one single casing. Plus, the steps along that way would be horribly uneffective (early twin head mutation = a lot of redundancy).
This isn't actually true, in a few points. For one, there are animals with more than one head - it's a freak mutation, but it has happened before. Secondly, there are animals where the brain is widely distributed - octopuses and other cephalopods usually have a brain, and what is effectively a secondary brain system distributed along their entire body.

There's still plenty of evidence against, as one head is certainly the norm, and the body structure of ducks isn't exactly conducive to being continually under water due to the need to breathe, while also being unable to withstand the pressure of being deep. However, even without that evidence, there is no reason to believe in it without evidence applied - it's just that, without that evidence it can't be ruled out particularly well either, and it is a matter of reverting to the null hypothesis, that being that there is no three headed underwater duck.

[Peelee]

Actually, absence of evidence IS evidence of absence.

.......no. It's really not. Just because you can't find evidence does not mean that evidence does not exist.

By applying the logic of "absence of evidence is evidence of absence," then you're asserting that before Blackwing saw a world in the rift, there was no world in the rift, because there was no evidence to support that, and that nonexistence of evidence was in fact evidence that it was not the case. The world was simply not there before you knew about it.

This is, of course, preposterous.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Evidence of absence is evidence of absence.

Now, it's ridiculous to think there is a three-headed duck under the ocean, as you have pointed out. That does not preclude the existence of it, but like you, I won't go around believing it until I see some evidence of it. However, that's because it is a ridiculous scenario. Tarquin and co. not being exactly the same level is not a ridiculous scenario. It is a very plausible scenario. As such, it's worth investigating, and just because we don't have evidence right now in our hands in black and white does not mean that the evidence does not exist.

[lesser_minion]

Sorry? What's your basis for believing this?

There is a lot of established precedent in the comic for spells having 3.0 effects as opposed to 3.5 ones, and the combo Malack used was nerfed heavily in the 3.5 update.

Malack wouldn't have tried it if it wasn't working as in 3.0.

[Emperordaniel]

There is a lot of established precedent in the comic for spells having 3.0 effects as opposed to 3.5 ones,

There is? The only one I can think of at the moment is Zz'dtri's fly spell being a 3.0 version instead of 3.5. :smallconfused:

[Kish]

There is a lot of established precedent in the comic for spells having 3.0 effects as opposed to 3.5 ones, and the combo Malack used was nerfed heavily in the 3.5 update.

Malack wouldn't have tried it if it wasn't working as in 3.0.
As Emperordaniel points out, there is exactly one established precedent for exactly one spellcaster having a houseruled 3.0ed version of exactly one spell (Fly) which is 3.5ed for every other spellcaster; and the rest of your post amounts to "Because I say so." You need actual evidence if you want to make a claim like, "This particular spell in the comic is its 3.0ed version," not merely willingness to assert.

[lio45]

This isn't actually true, in a few points. For one, there are animals with more than one head - it's a freak mutation, but it has happened before.

Sure, but as I said in my post, the "early" twin head mutation is a total loser of an evolutionary path, so you don't see prolific two-headed animal races out there.

You made me notice though that he mentioned *one* giant three-headed duck... singular, not plural.

I was (mistakenly) under the impression that the example was about a race of giant three-headed ducks living down there... something against which the evidence is even stronger. A mutated duck with two heads is probably within the realm of possible.

But you'd need three, plus a mutation to make it "giant", plus a mutation to "invent" a complete and functional system of gills, plus a mutation to give it a way of withstanding the pressure down there, plus one to be able to feed down there... and then that duck would also need to have its instinct altered by another mutation so it decides to go down there, because it would be born on the surface.




Secondly, there are animals where the brain is widely distributed - octopuses and other cephalopods usually have a brain, and what is effectively a secondary brain system distributed along their entire body.

That's not really "two heads", let alone three.


There's still plenty of evidence against, as one head is certainly the norm, and the body structure of ducks isn't exactly conducive to being continually under water due to the need to breathe, while also being unable to withstand the pressure of being deep. However, even without that evidence, there is no reason to believe in it without evidence applied - it's just that, without that evidence it can't be ruled out particularly well either, and it is a matter of reverting to the null hypothesis, that being that there is no three headed underwater duck.


On topic, yes, the null hypothesis (in this case, "Tarquin's team are probably all the same, or similar levels") has priority in the absence of evidence pointing the other way.

So we do agree on the "on topic" part of our posts... ;)

[Forikroder]

i jsut want to say, i will be telling all of you i told you so when the 3 headed duck is destroying humanity this december

[Ronnoc]

Going purely off of O-Chul's spell list I would imagine that a combination of mass hold person and cloudkill would fairly effectively wipe out the entire current linear guild. And that's not even thinking about epic spells Xykon may have invented.

[kickassfrog]

2 words: overland flight. Xykon can just hover out of reach and spam AoE spells, assuming he has any.

[SadisticFishing]

.......no. It's really not. Just because you can't find evidence does not mean that evidence does not exist.

By applying the logic of "absence of evidence is evidence of absence," then you're asserting that before Blackwing saw a world in the rift, there was no world in the rift, because there was no evidence to support that, and that nonexistence of evidence was in fact evidence that it was not the case. The world was simply not there before you knew about it.

This is, of course, preposterous.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Evidence of absence is evidence of absence.

Now, it's ridiculous to think there is a three-headed duck under the ocean, as you have pointed out. That does not preclude the existence of it, but like you, I won't go around believing it until I see some evidence of it. However, that's because it is a ridiculous scenario. Tarquin and co. not being exactly the same level is not a ridiculous scenario. It is a very plausible scenario. As such, it's worth investigating, and just because we don't have evidence right now in our hands in black and white does not mean that the evidence does not exist.

Woah, haha. So we're to assume that there being no evidence of something necessarily implies that that thing doesn't exist?

No. Evidence is not proof. Lack of evidence is evidence of lack, but not proof.

Evidence lets us assign probability values. If we see no evidence for something, we assign it a *very* low probability value. Like the three headed duck.

Everyone on this forum needs to stop acting like they have to assign all their probability mass to one outcome. There are multiple possibilities, assign accordingly.

For example, instead of saying "they had to be the same level!" say "barring more knowledge, about 80% of parties, in my experience, all share a level" (which is a prior). So given the knowledge we have, which doesn't shift our probabilities at all, you'd assign an 80% probability value to "they were the same level." That leaves 20% for "they were NOT the same level". Boom. Suddenly, your opinion makes sense and isn't ridiculous.

There is no inherent ridiculousness to *any* proposition. The absurdity heuristic will only get so far.