Unicron Vs. The Death Star [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Fragenstein

2012-06-12, 06:22 AM

While this may not exactly be the battle of the planets, it's at least the battle of the Really Big Space Stations. Both of which are quite lethal and capable of destroying planets. Which would win?

For the Death Star, we of course have its most prominent feature; the planet busting laser. One shot from this and it would seem that any target would be reduced to a field of slightly radioactive debris.

Not only that, but its surface is littered with turbo-lasers, shields and T.I.E. fighter patrols with the Sith lord Vader at their command. An impressive array.

Unicron, on the other hand, has his own long-range "eye-beam" weapons. Those might not carry the same finality as the Death Star's main gun, but they were shown in the movie to be most effective even after one of the lensing devices was smashed by... was it Grimlock?

Unicron also has Galvatron, Cyclonus, Scourge and the Sweeps to send out on the offensive. Plus I believe that Unicron is going to have far better sub-light maneuvering than the Death Star.

He's also not a planet. There's no high-pressure core to destabalize, meaning the giant robot might survive a "flesh wound" from the big gun.

Let's hear some theories. Which would win? I'd like to keep this to the episode IV Death Star and Unicron's first appearance in Transformers: The Movie. This would be before he was retconned into being some sort of astral god of chaos.

But if one side or the other is losing badly, please feel free to delve into each of the two expanded universes.

CapnRedBeard

2012-06-12, 07:49 AM

Aidan305

2012-06-12, 07:55 AM

Unicron simply because it's sentient. One would imagine that Unicron would analyze the offensive capability of the Death Star and adjust the attack strat.
The Death Star is manned by some of the finest military minds in the Empire who are just as capable of doing the same. I don't think the fact that Unicron is Sentient is going to matter other than in terms of level playing fields.

Fragenstein

2012-06-12, 08:05 AM

The Death Star is manned by some of the finest military minds in the Empire who are just as capable of doing the same. I don't think the fact that Unicron is Sentient is going to matter other than in terms of level playing fields.

How was Unicron on FTL travel? I don't remember him using a space bridge in the movie, but it also didn't seem like he was breaking the time barrier at any point. He was just a big, patient monster capable of trekking through space for a thousand years to get where he wanted to be.

I could be wrong on that. If I'm not, then the Death Star could always execute a Mongolian Retreat through use of its hyperdrive. Lure Unicron and his forces into a vulnerable situation before executing an ambush.

Don't forget the primary front that would be playing out, either. Enslaved Decepticons going up against the defensive fleet that the Death Star maintains. Both figures have proven themselves vulnerable to small-fighter attacks. That might be a factor.

As well, both sides are demonstrably bright enough to convert the other side. Who would be the first to turn traitor; Vader or Galvatron?

Vader is willingly subservient up until the very end of his career. Galvatron has been forcibly subdued and would likely turn against his master at the first opportunity.

Aotrs Commander

2012-06-12, 08:07 AM

Unicron simply because it's sentient. One would imagine that Unicron would analyze the offensive capability of the Death Star and adjust the attack strat. Furthermore the Death Star is not designed to fight another space station. The star wars mind control abilities of the Death Star's commander should be completely useless against all decepticons.

Against Unicron, yes. Transformers themselves have proved on several occasions that they do not possess any special resistance to mind control, so whether or not Force mind-control would work would probably depend on the individual Decepticon, like anyone else. (Though even Unicron was momentarily disconcerted by a mental attack from a human psychic once.) Galvatron... would really, really be dependant on which version from which continutiy, because some of them are completely crazy and would easy to screw with, while others are rational enough to be "strong-willed."

(I say this since Transformers are robotic, but they aren't droids (they have a soul (spark), for a kick-off, and they have minds that, as I say, are manipulatable by outside sources). If you want to argue that Force power cannot affect anything that's not organic, that would be a different question, I suppose, and more a failing of the Force than of mind-control.)

The biggest issue is whether Unicron can dodge the Deathstar's superlaser (and Unicron is not exactly noted for his agility) and/or close the range fast enough. As if we are talking about Deathstar I, it takes hours to recharge, and even the II would at the kind of levels required to damage Unicron as opposed to a vastly smaller cruiser.

It's back down to, as usual, the random element of chance, and who acts first.

If Unicron dodges the superlaser, he's probably got enough umph that he can tear the Deathstar apart physically - assuming that the fleet doesn't shoot his unshielded arse apart and that his own eye beams are going to be able to destroy shielded starships consideably larger than the ones used in Transformers. (The TF ships are big, but not even close to one-mile-long big.)

Fragenstein

2012-06-12, 08:37 AM

If Unicron dodges the superlaser, he's probably got enough umph that he can tear the Deathstar apart physically - assuming that the fleet doesn't shoot his unshielded arse apart and that his own eye beams are going to be able to destroy shielded starships consideably larger than the ones used in Transformers. (The TF ships are big, but not even close to one-mile-long big.)

I'd like to see a scenario where the Emperor plays cat-and-mouse with Unicron, using hyperdrive for short hops and forcing Unicron to pursue the Death Star through a gauntlet of star destroyers while Vader leads an infantry unit into the heart of Unicron, itself, to disrupt (or corrupt), things from there.

The Succubus

2012-06-12, 08:42 AM

Unicron is voiced by Orson Wells. It wins by default.

Fragenstein

2012-06-12, 08:50 AM

Unicron is voiced by Orson Wells. It wins by default.

Orson Wells is balanced by James Earl Jones. Unicron's side also has Leonard Nemoy as the chief commander in Galvatron...

Fan

2012-06-12, 09:29 AM

I don't really see how this is a fight, even with Darth Vader, and Sidious (Inlcuding EU feats of Sidious creating a fleet sized ((and no larger)) force storm to take out his enemies, and putting Darth Vader on the extreme wank level of Force Unleashed.)

In the movies, and comics which are stated to be the SAME canon by the creators, Unicron displays the following Massive cosmic energy manipulation, transmutation (Can Create things from nothing and reshape and mold what is already in existence.), reality warping, shapeshifting (includes changing his size), teleportation (Is able to travel across the Multiverse), telepathy, Cosmic senses/Near Omniscient (can sense things across dimensions and knows everything that is not shielded from him by Primus), sometimes portrayed as being non-corporeal, and several others that are too numerous to name. Unicron is a threat that with CIS (Character induced stupidity.), and PIS (Plot induced Stupidity) in regards to his power usage would simply float inside the death star as say.. a Tie Fighter (As transformers are want, taking something the enemy uses, and using it to.. I dunno.. transform.) made out of material a Turbolaser can't scratch due to Unicron's durability, and expand beyond the Death Star's ability to contain him, thus tearing it apart.

Alternatively, due to his abilities of energy conversion (he does eat planets, turning inorganic matter into energon does take at least that small level of ability to do just this.) he simply devours the Death Star's energy as he is want.

Also for an example of some size and feats, see this spoiler:

Full Size, excrept from official artbook-
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-y5sbBOrtBPk/Tvhu8mOHyxI/AAAAAAAAA7I/WWIxnydlIpc/s1600/Unicron+latest.jpg

Size manipulation, post transformation:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-s_rkEL3rbVY/T04LknTWj6I/AAAAAAAAJTg/JU3D_uLlAK0/s1600/gddgdg.jpg

Looks familar?, Transformers Movie, scaling shown in comics shows this to also be larger than a planet.-

http://mimg.ugo.com/201004/42518/cuts/unicron_288x288.jpg

He's got the whole world in his hand~. Should be obviously official artwork from the transformers comic-

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/the-living-tribunal-and-the-spectre-vs-unicron-and-primus-7694.jpg

Energy Absorbtion, case, planet-

http://images.wikia.com/transformers/images/9/9d/Unicron_eats_blizzard.jpg

Shapeshifting case 2, adding arms to the above orb forms: http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/thumb/1/14/Energon-Unicrons-Arms.jpg/200px-Energon-Unicrons-Arms.jpg

Shields capable of tanking the entire Transformers Armada, includings weapons that had been shown to be multi city buster + previously in series without damage: http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/thumb/d/df/TheEnd-Unicron.jpg/300px-TheEnd-Unicron.jpg

****ing TIME TRAVEL-: http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/thumb/a/a9/EyeoftheStorm-possiblefutureUnicron.jpg/300px-EyeoftheStorm-possiblefutureUnicron.jpg

His formation of an Energon Red Sun, albeit with his powers under use by a seperate entity- http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/76/Energon-Sun-Formation.jpg

Couple that with the ability to use the Transformers standard method of FTL travel, and I don't see him being able to "Cat and Mouse" Unicron effectively, the Death Star explodes taking one over confident Emperor with it.

Speed, Power, Durability, and every other discerning factor are just not with it today.

Unicron is a contender against entities like Galactus, and other abstract marvel concepts (Though in my opinion, he would inarguably lose most of those fights.), I don't see a Planet Buster doing a whole lot of damage to him, especially one that took as long as it did to get around.

Also one mile long? Victory Class Star Destroyers were 900 meters from stern to bow, making them large yes, but under a kilometer. Transformers ships were EASILY this long, and in some cases (Such as the autobot flag ship showcased in Armada.) larger than a canyon.

Tanuki Tales

2012-06-12, 09:35 AM

Fan

2012-06-12, 09:41 AM

Isn't Unicron...you know...much larger than the Death Star by some degrees?

Then adding on the fact that Unicron is a literal god that exists on a multiversal level and eats universes...

Since the OP doesn't want to include abstract, canon Unicron.

How does the Deathstar stand a chance exactly?

The original movie Unicron, and the Transformers (1986) story line is stated to be continued by the creators (as stated in: Transformers, More than Meets the Eye Interviews.), the Transformers Comic, the original series, and the Movies are the only officially recognized canon for Transformers MUX (Original Series.), and all other elements that conflict are considered Non canonical.

Tanuki Tales

2012-06-12, 09:44 AM

The original movie Unicron, and the Transformers (1986) story line is stated to be continued by the creators (as stated in: Transformers, More than Meets the Eye Interviews.), the Transformers Comic, the original series, and the Movies are the only officially recognized canon for Transformers MUX (Original Series.), and all other elements that conflict are considered Non canonical.

The OP only wants us discussing Unicron from the original movie though.

Fan

2012-06-12, 09:46 AM

The OP only wants us discussing Unicron from the original movie though.

Stated by the creators to be the same Unicron though, all instances of Unicron presented within Transformers MUX are considered, by the creators, to be retroactively the same Unicron.

Official Statements are oddly specific in regards to this, I guess they wanted a clean timeline.

Tanuki Tales

2012-06-12, 09:51 AM

Stated by the creators to be the same Unicron though, all instances of Unicron presented within Transformers MUX are considered, by the creators, to be retroactively the same Unicron.

Official Statements are oddly specific in regards to this, I guess they wanted a clean timeline.

Still, it's the Opening Poster's prerogative to designate the exact versions, state, etc. of the characters. And he/she's designated that the Unicron in this debate is the Unicron from only the first movie, ignoring any subsequent appearances.

So he's not a chaos god for the purposes of this thread. But I still thought he out-sizes the Death Star healthily.

Fragenstein

2012-06-12, 09:52 AM

Yes, they really got carried away with Unicron after a while. That's why I was hoping to stay with the movie portrayal, where he was simply a big planet eater with some cosmic awareness and decent cronies.

The Death Star stands a chance because, of course, it was built specifically to destroy target which are the size of planets. Like Unicron.

It might win if, for example, Unicron tried to move up on it and simply start chewing. Without the godlike abilities of later series, Unicron might be caught off-guard by the Death Star's planet killer and be cored.

But I'll admit -- if we take the full insanity of later Unicron appearances where he's a mechanized embodiment of chaos itself, then the Death Star is done. Taking him as simply the universe's largest and most power Transformer, however, gives the Empire a fighting chance.

Still, it's the Opening Poster's prerogative to designate the exact versions, state, etc. of the characters. And he/she's designated that the Unicron in this debate is the Unicron from only the first movie, ignoring any subsequent appearances.

So he's not a chaos god for the purposes of this thread. But I still thought he out-sizes the Death Star healthily.

Yes, exactly. I'm sure that if the Death Star had been given the same exponential expansion, it would have become something as powerful to match.

And I was never entirely certain as to Unicron's size in the movie. The only planets I remember being eater were artificial and likely much smaller than a normal planet. Certainly when under direct attack or otherwise interracting with the various characters of the story, he seems smaller than a large world should be.

Fan

2012-06-12, 09:53 AM

Unicron in the movies stood on top of a planet and eye laser'd it, of course he's larger.

Still, he still has size manipulation, and the two seperate forms, and debatably energy absorbtion.

Also, if we go by ONLY the movie, the only thing that can kill Unicron is the Matrix of Leadership, and given the Autobot Society, they have some pretty hefty weapons of their own to bring to bear.

Also his devouring is less a "chewing", and more of a peeling away through a function similar to the death star's own tractor beam, if he hits it from the right angle even a rush would work as he'd peel away the main mechanisms for the gun fairly quickly (Death Star I did have a fair charge up time.), faster than I think it could fire going by this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_Fc9ubaGAE) (The original pre 1997 cut.), also given the obvious signs that all but scream THIS GUN IS GOING TO FIRE HERE SOON it's not hard to move out of the path of a linear projectile.

Cybertron is also canonically larger than Earth by many dozens of magnitudes (equated to be the equivalent of a solid metal Saturn), believe me, those worlds he ate were not smaller. A later plot involves Cybertron being brought into Earth's orbit by a device so that way they could harvest Earth's Energon after Cybertron's gravity tore it apart.

Tanuki Tales

2012-06-12, 09:57 AM

Yes, they really got carried away with Unicron after a while. That's why I was hoping to stay with the movie portrayal, where he was simply a big planet eater with some cosmic awareness and decent cronies.

The Death Star stands a chance because, of course, it was built specifically to destroy target which are the size of planets. Like Unicron.

It might win if, for example, Unicron tried to move up on it and simply start chewing. Without the godlike abilities of later series, Unicron might be caught off-guard by the Death Star's planet killer and be cored.

But I'll admit -- if we take the full insanity of later Unicron appearances where he's a mechanized embodiment of chaos itself, then the Death Star is done. Taking him as simply the universe's largest and most power Transformer, however, gives the Empire a fighting chance.

I honestly don't see Empire engineering outdoing Cybertronian arms. I mean, they're a race that has been fighting a war that spans millennia while the Empire has only been militarized for a few decades. It's debatable if anything short of the main cannon could harm Unicron and it's not like Unicron couldn't analyze where all the power diverts for the station. He's just come up on the backside of the station and nom nom nom.

CapnRedBeard

2012-06-12, 10:05 AM

The Death Star is manned by some of the finest military minds in the Empire who are just as capable of doing the same. I don't think the fact that Unicron is Sentient is going to matter other than in terms of level playing fields.

I disagree. Being a destroyer and controlling a destroyer are not the same. Take it down to a being level if you will. You have awesome controls over another human...you can make them do whatever you want, whenever you want. vs. a real life person in charge of themselves...in a fight. If one assumed both were equal in abilities (which Deathstar vs Unicron is not imo) you'd have to give the edge to the "live" fighter. The response times would be slightly faster with the real fighter.

The design of the stations is important too. Brushing away smaller ships with defense cannon is nice...but the main weapon is a planet buster that takes a long time to reload. You'd have one shot to win. Unicron just needs to feint once to win. Unicron would have pretty much as many chances on offense as it needed.

Karoht

2012-06-12, 10:18 AM

Unicron is a very strong contender.
The Death Star main gun is very slow to power up, and the Death Star itself doesn't ever appear to pivot very well. Unicron merely needs to dodge the first blast, then circle strafe until he can get close enough. Then he proceedes to tear the Deathstar to pieces with his hands, and eats the pieces later if he's feeling peckish.

Also, Vader doesn't have the Prime Matrix, even if he was leading a crew inside, victory isn't likely.

Though now I am picturing a Transformers/Star Wars crossover, and I really do think that having Luke Skywalker and Hotrod saying "Light our Darkest Hour" while holding the Prime Matrix would be a pretty awesome scene to behold.

Fragenstein

2012-06-12, 10:34 AM

Though now I am picturing a Transformers/Star Wars crossover, and I really do think that having Luke Skywalker and Hotrod saying "Light our Darkest Hour" while holding the Prime Matrix would be a pretty awesome scene to behold.

Honestly, yes. I'm starting to envision an epic quest going on within Unicron where one side is racing to destory him while the other intends to usurp his power.

Meanwhile, Optimus Prime is standing defient within the Death Star's equatorial trench and firing point-blank into the exhaust port.

Karoht

2012-06-12, 10:36 AM

Honestly, yes. I'm starting to envision an epic quest going on within Unicron where one side is racing to destory him while the other intends to usurp his power.

Meanwhile, Optimus Prime is standing defient within the Death Star's equatorial trench and firing point-blank into the exhaust port.
Right after he's kicked Mega/Galvatron to the curb.
"One shall stand, one shall fall."

It practically writes itself.

But what of Obi-wan? Do him and Optimus Prime die in the same story? Oh the trauma.

Fragenstein

2012-06-12, 10:38 AM

Right after he's kicked Mega/Galvatron to the curb.
"One shall stand, one shall fall."

It practically writes itself.

But what of Obi-wan? Do him and Optimus Prime die in the same story? Oh the trauma.

More like Galvatron is blindsided by the Millenium Falcon as he's attempting to charge-down Optimus.

pendell

2012-06-12, 11:14 AM

Actually, I think Unicron was a chaos god in the context of the original movie. See the scene when he meets Megatron and creates Galvatron, Cyclonus, and the other minions from the wreckage of the old decepticons.

He notes that he had "summoned megatron" for a purpose. Notice also the sight of unicron howling while the decepticons are fighting aboard astrotrain as to whether or not to jettison the injured.

Conclusion: Unicorn is subtly altering fate, drawing Megatron to himself by an act of chaos magic, much as the emperor subtly manipulates the force.

Note his re-creation of Megatron and company. This demonstrates his ability to alter matter and the fabric of the universe at all.

So the true battle would not be between Unicron and the Death Star, but between the Emperor and Unicron on the plane of the Force. The losers would be killed by a mysterious set of "lucky" coincidences. In both the world of Transformers and Star Wars, there is no such thing as luck. In a true force battle, the combatants might not even encounter each other physically.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Karoht

2012-06-12, 11:28 AM

More like Galvatron is blindsided by the Millenium Falcon as he's attempting to charge-down Optimus.
"YEEEEEEHaaaaaaaaaah!!! You're all clear big guy, now lets blow this thing and go home."
Yeah, yeah this is working for me.
I see R2D2 getting rather friendly with Arcee though. But skipping that, this is sounding more and more like a fic I would actually read. Mostly for the lulz, but there's some good moments here.

Junkbots VS Ewoks, who's more annoying?

Reverent-One

2012-06-12, 11:28 AM

Actually, I think Unicron was a chaos god in the context of the original movie. See the scene when he meets Megatron and creates Galvatron, Cyclonus, and the other minions from the wreckage of the old decepticons.

Unlikely, as in the following seasons of the original show, his origin is given as being created by a monkey alien (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Primacron). The whole chaos god idea is a later one. Feats like modifying Megatron and friends can be easily explained by technology.

Notice also the sight of unicron howling while the decepticons are fighting aboard astrotrain as to whether or not to jettison the injured.

Actually, he howls when the matrix is passed on, not when the decepticons are fighting.

pendell

2012-06-12, 11:44 AM

Actually, he howls when the matrix is passed on, not when the decepticons are fighting.

The fact that he was aware of events on earth, light years away, at the very least implies information sources beyond immediate scanning range, yes? Not necessarily omniscience, but "more than meets the eye" .

I also note that you have not explained how Unicron "summoned" Megatron for a purpose using technology. If you have a viewpoint, I'd like to hear it :).

ETA: There's a third outcome to this scenario. The Death Star fires. Unicron misses and closes. Just when he's in contact with the station, Tarkin orders the Death Star scuttled by overloading the hypermatter reactor. The Death Star explodes with enough power to rival a small nova (all the power needed to blow up a planet plus move the station through hyperspace all going up AT ONCE), thus taking Unicron with it. They both die, but the Empire is safe.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Fragenstein

2012-06-12, 11:57 AM

The fact that he was aware of events on earth, light years away, at the very least implies information sources beyond immediate scanning range, yes? Not necessarily omniscience, but "more than meets the eye" .

I also note that you have not explained how Unicron "summoned" Megatron for a purpose using technology. If you have a viewpoint, I'd like to hear it :).

ETA: There's a third outcome to this scenario. The Death Star fires. Unicron misses and closes. Just when he's in contact with the station, Tarkin orders the Death Star scuttled by overloading the hypermatter reactor. The Death Star explodes with enough power to rival a small nova (all the power needed to blow up a planet plus move the station through hyperspace all going up AT ONCE), thus taking Unicron with it. They both die, but the Empire is safe.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Megatron was summoned by use of long-range tractor beam or direct manipulation of gravatic fields. Good, yeah, but not godlike in itself. Just a demonstration of the power and control he has at hand.

And I've admitted some limited cosmic awareness. Yes, he's clearly more than hip when it comes to what's going on around him, up until his head is converted into a small moon for a half-pint planet. That still doesn't secure his position as ultimate embodiment of an aspect of reality itself.

He's much more interesting when operating on levels as demonstrated in the movie. He can be resisted, fought and destroyed by a common, determined force.

So Luke and Hotrod inside Unicron with the Matrix, looking for its core. Vader and Starscream hot on their heals, trying to steal Unicron away from them and corrupt it into the new Death Star.

Vader: "As I sacrifice myself, here, where Unicron's core lies exposed, my darkness shall spill out and consume his cosmic heart. Once this is done and Unicron is no more, then shall my spirit wield his power in the name of my master."

Luke: "Nooo.... THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!"

Reverent-One

2012-06-12, 12:16 PM

The fact that he was aware of events on earth, light years away, at the very least implies information sources beyond immediate scanning range, yes? Not necessarily omniscience, but "more than meets the eye" .

Between that scene, his awareness of Ultra Magnus's shuttle escaping Galvatron the first time, and tracking that shuttle to Junk, he certainly has ridiculous sensory capabilties. At least as far as the Matrix is concerned.

I also note that you have not explained how Unicron "summoned" Megatron for a purpose using technology. If you have a viewpoint, I'd like to hear it :).

I'm inclided to go with the tractor beam or similar technology theory.

ETA: There's a third outcome to this scenario. The Death Star fires. Unicron misses and closes. Just when he's in contact with the station, Tarkin orders the Death Star scuttled by overloading the hypermatter reactor. The Death Star explodes with enough power to rival a small nova (all the power needed to blow up a planet plus move the station through hyperspace all going up AT ONCE), thus taking Unicron with it. They both die, but the Empire is safe.

Possibly, though he has survived having his food blow up as he's eating it before. There's also the question of how long does it take to overload the reactor, since he eats fairly quickly.

JustSomeGuy

2012-06-12, 05:18 PM

But what of Obi-wan? Do him and Optimus Prime die in the same story? Oh the trauma.

He can ride around in the crusty veteran blue 4x4 guy, you know the one who wipes hotrod's arse through the whole film.

Traab

2012-06-12, 07:53 PM

Oh my god, it all makes sense now! That speeder luke was going to sell at mos eisley is just his own personal bumblebee!

Fan

2012-06-13, 04:02 AM

Between that scene, his awareness of Ultra Magnus's shuttle escaping Galvatron the first time, and tracking that shuttle to Junk, he certainly has ridiculous sensory capabilties. At least as far as the Matrix is concerned.

I'm inclided to go with the tractor beam or similar technology theory.

Possibly, though he has survived having his food blow up as he's eating it before. There's also the question of how long does it take to overload the reactor, since he eats fairly quickly.

And it was an entire planet set to blow up with space future explosives, they simply had a larger stock to work with, and the people of Alpha Q were arguably just as advanced as the Star Wars people.

Not knocking a hypermatter reactor, but the reactor blowing up in of itself wasn't enough to take out the forest moon of Endor right next to it, I doubt it'd take out Unicron, or even do significant damage.

The Succubus

2012-06-13, 05:10 AM

Junkbots VS Ewoks, who's more annoying?

Ewoks. Wrek-gar is voiced by Eric Idle (which is win) and also gave the world the phrase "Bah-weep-granah-weep-nini-bhang" (please don't get start on the spelling - I don't have the actual phrase in front of me).

Fragenstein

2012-06-13, 05:52 AM

He can ride around in the crusty veteran blue 4x4 guy, you know the one who wipes hotrod's arse through the whole film.

Kup, I believe was his name. I always did like him.

And this is interesting. We've been talking about macroscopic abilities as if just one aspect of either side would be enough to win. Where are all my detail-freaks? I want to know about the effectiveness of an ion cannon being used against Devastator or Omega Supreme.

I want to know what would happen if a Jedi or Sith stepped into the middle of this fight:

http://starsmedia.ign.com/stars/image/article/996/996813/transformers-the-many-looks-of-optimus-prime-20090622021250620-000.jpg

Both the Death Star and Unicron would bring along diverse elements of their home realities. They wouldn't be able to help it, they're just too central to so many aspects. Don't get bogged down in generalities. Let's see some fan-boy details.

Aotrs Commander

2012-06-13, 06:20 AM

Ewoks. Wrek-gar is voiced by Eric Idle (which is win) and also gave the world the phrase "Bah-weep-granah-weep-nini-bhang" (please don't get start on the spelling - I don't have the actual phrase in front of me).

Bah Weep Graaagnah Wheep Ni Ni Bong. If you want to be pedantic.

Which I do. Because.

Also, it was the aforemention Kup who first said the phrase, not Wreck-Gar.

JustSomeGuy

2012-06-13, 09:36 AM

I want to know what would happen if a Jedi or Sith stepped into the middle of this fight:

http://starsmedia.ign.com/stars/image/article/996/996813/transformers-the-many-looks-of-optimus-prime-20090622021250620-000.jpg

Prime kicks arse with his own 'montage song' (it wasn't a montage per se, but close enough to establish his awesomeness), is betrayed by his own sense of chivalry, and then is either saved by a Jedi who can see through snivelling decepticon ruses, or smashed by a Sith who may or may not team with Megatron or wait and destroy a weakend Megatron too.

Only one guy gets a Stan Bush soundtrack though, can't see a Jedi getting one of those.

Karoht

2012-06-13, 09:51 AM

Prime kicks arse with his own 'montage song' (it wasn't a montage per se, but close enough to establish his awesomeness), is betrayed by his own sense of chivalry, and then is either saved by a Jedi who can see through snivelling decepticon ruses, or smashed by a Sith who may or may not team with Megatron or wait and destroy a weakend Megatron too.

Only one guy gets a Stan Bush soundtrack though, can't see a Jedi getting one of those.

Transformer only getting "You got the touch"

But a Jedi can quote "Light our Darkest Hour"
I'm okay with that.

Reverent-One

2012-06-13, 10:34 AM

And it was an entire planet set to blow up with space future explosives, they simply had a larger stock to work with, and the people of Alpha Q were arguably just as advanced as the Star Wars people.

Well, that's Energon Unicron, not Movie Unicron, I was referring to Spike and Bumblebee setting one of Cybertron's moons to blow.

Fragenstein

2012-06-13, 10:44 AM

Karoht

2012-06-13, 11:41 AM

Plus I'm specifically referring to that fight, pictured above. A light saber pitted against a laser ax and/or its morningstar equivalent. I believe the show even made use of light saber sound effects for that sequence.
In the sequence show, yes. They used the Sith Lightsaber for Optimus and his... light axe? And they used the green saber impact noises for Megatron and his... light mace?

In the film however, Megatron and his energy dagger thingy in *THAT* fight the he uses for all of a second is a blue saber lighting up but a Sith saber for impact noises.

"You're at your best when the going gets rough.
You've been put to the test but it's never enough!"
"Now... Light our Darkest Hour..."
"You got the TOUCH!
You got the POWAR!!"

Seriously, coolest movie moment ever when I was 4 years old and this film came out.

Ravens_cry

2012-06-13, 01:06 PM

Speaking of animated film Unicron, I liked him better as a planet with teeth.
It was far scarier and impersonal, especially combined with Orson Welles's voice. Probably because of his ailing health, there was a very dead quality to it that actually improved things. It felt implacable, like a millstone, grinding you into oblivion.
Most of that movie is pure nostalgia filter bait, but some things it did right.

pendell

2012-06-13, 05:00 PM

Yes. My own personal favorite transformers movie. Many things it did right.

But there was a thing or two it got wrong. "Ba-wa-granah-weep-ninibong!"

*head hurts, go for liedown*

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Wardog

2012-06-13, 06:53 PM

Does Unicron actually have size-changing ability, or is that just Transformers contempt for scale continuity?

As for the cross-over, we need to have a Rancor vs. Grimlock battle.

Wardog

2012-06-13, 07:24 PM

Does Unicron actually have size-changing ability, or is that just Transformers contempt for scale continuity?

As for the cross-over, we need to have a Rancor vs. Grimlock battle.

Fan

2012-06-14, 06:27 AM

Well, that's Energon Unicron, not Movie Unicron, I was referring to Spike and Bumblebee setting one of Cybertron's moons to blow.

Ah, well, again. If not for OP limitations Unicron would have this in a stomp as they are retroactively the same Unicron.

However, my current argument goes to him based on manueverability, size manipulation, and durability against the death star's main weaponry (Even a direct hit is not a 100% kill, or even a TKO.) This is Death Star + Commanders V.S. Unicron not Death Star + Commanders and Friends V.S. Unicron.

It's just not gonna work when all Unicron has to do is Transform, and Roll Out to win, especially when the Empire isn't going to hyperspace away when a lone tie fighter goes rogue and attempts to ram the death star, only moments later, for Unicron to consume it from the inside out.

This is without CIS, and PIS. With CIS on, Unicron can still win, PIS dictates that neither can win and Luke and Optimus Prime will have to attempt simultaneous missions to beat the other's nemesis, only for both of them to fail and later regroup and succeed in their intended roles.

The only thing the Death Star has on Unicron is the ability to run away, and if you have to run away to survive it's not a victory.

I also give it to the Transformers in a voice battle, because Peter Cullen, and Frank Welker.

You just can't compete with that.

Fragenstein

2012-06-14, 07:22 AM

I also give it to the Transformers in a voice battle, because Peter Cullen, and Frank Welker.

You just can't compete with that.

Having grown up suffering through the Frank Welker voice era, I feel comfortable saying that he's overrated. He has his annoying high-pitched range for Uni the Unicorn and Slimer of the Real Ghostbusters, and then he has the slightly more useful lower range of Dr. Claw and Scooby Doo. There is the pretense of flexibility and talent simply because most of his voices sound the same despite the vast gulf of credits lent to his name.

I actually prefer Tom Kenny, myself.

But back to the battle -- running away in itself can be a winning tactic if it's employed as a feigned retreat. That's where you coerce your enemy into pursuing you until the conditions are more in your favor, at which point you spring a trap.

Unicron's mode of transportation in the movie was ill defined. If he can't compete with hyperdrive, then a good strategist (Moff Tarkin), directing the Death Star might be able to set that up.

But if Unicron actually can teleport within the movie definition, then such an ambush would be doomed to failure. The same could be said if Unicron's movie-level cosmic awareness or raw intelligence is enough to keep him out of the crosshairs.

I have to admit, things aren't looking good for the Death Star.

Do we actually have hard data behind the rate of fire of the main laser array? Keep in mind that when they were targeting Yavin 4, the delay was in waiting for the moon's orbit to clear the gas giant's horizon. They were ready to fire, they'd just shown up on the wrong side of the planet.

That's what I'm mainly drawing on for the Death Star's lack of mobility, by the way. They couldn't just coast around to the rebels, they had to wait a few hours for them to show up. If someone has canon tech data that explains otherwise, I'd like to hear it.

The Succubus

2012-06-14, 08:12 AM

The Death Star has very low sublight speed, which is why it took so long to fire in A New Hope, due to having to orbit the large red planet prior to firing.

In Return of the Jedi, we see the Death Star firing twice within a fairly short time frame. It fired once at a Mon Calamari cruiser at the beginning of the Battle of Endor and once again about halfway through. I'm guessing the actual Ewok v Trooper fight couldn't have lasted more than about an hour or so, otherwise I'm pretty sure the Ewoks would have been massacred.

From this, I'm hazarding a 30 minute cycle between Death Star shots but as for how long it can keep doing it is another matter.

The really interesting question is range. In the Transformer's movie, when Unicron is scoffing his way through planets, it's all done in "melee" range, for some weird definition of the word. The beam from the Death Star travels at the speed of light and I'm fairly certain that Unicron doesn't move that quickly when he's dropped out of hyperspace, or whatever method he uses to travel between snacks.

IF the Death Star spots him from a sufficient distance away, I think it has a better than average chance of vaporising him before he causes trouble. If the shot misses, however and Unicron closes to melee range, then I'm pretty sure the Death Star is transformer-chow.

Fragenstein

2012-06-14, 08:46 AM

In Return of the Jedi, we see the Death Star firing twice within a fairly short time frame. It fired once at a Mon Calamari cruiser at the beginning of the Battle of Endor and once again about halfway through.

Keep in mind that this is limited to the Episode IV Death Star. It's only fair as Unicron has been rendered down to his first on-screen appearance as well.

Even so, do we know how much of its power it was using to blast the capital ships? I always assumed that it used a reactor to charge a capacitor which then fired the laser. Taking out a planet might fully deplete that capacitor where an enemy ship might not require such a commitment.

We've seen in showdown threads of the past that a great detail of official technical material has been published for Star Wars. I'm still hoping we can get some hard data on the rate of fire.

Ashen Lilies

2012-06-14, 09:12 AM

I also give it to the Transformers in a voice battle, because Peter Cullen, and Frank Welker.

You just can't compete with that.

I'm sorry Fan, I love you, but no... just, no.

James Earl Jones alone is easily voice enough for both of them. Add in Peter Cushing, and it's simply no contest.

[/postnotentirelyserious]

Fan

2012-06-14, 09:22 AM

Having grown up suffering through the Frank Welker voice era, I feel comfortable saying that he's overrated. He has his annoying high-pitched range for Uni the Unicorn and Slimer of the Real Ghostbusters, and then he has the slightly more useful lower range of Dr. Claw and Scooby Doo. There is the pretense of flexibility and talent simply because most of his voices sound the same despite the vast gulf of credits lent to his name.

I actually prefer Tom Kenny, myself.

But back to the battle -- running away in itself can be a winning tactic if it's employed as a feigned retreat. That's where you coerce your enemy into pursuing you until the conditions are more in your favor, at which point you spring a trap.

Unicron's mode of transportation in the movie was ill defined. If he can't compete with hyperdrive, then a good strategist (Moff Tarkin), directing the Death Star might be able to set that up.

But if Unicron actually can teleport within the movie definition, then such an ambush would be doomed to failure. The same could be said if Unicron's movie-level cosmic awareness or raw intelligence is enough to keep him out of the crosshairs.

I have to admit, things aren't looking good for the Death Star.

Do we actually have hard data behind the rate of fire of the main laser array? Keep in mind that when they were targeting Yavin 4, the delay was in waiting for the moon's orbit to clear the gas giant's horizon. They were ready to fire, they'd just shown up on the wrong side of the planet.

That's what I'm mainly drawing on for the Death Star's lack of mobility, by the way. They couldn't just coast around to the rebels, they had to wait a few hours for them to show up. If someone has canon tech data that explains otherwise, I'd like to hear it.

Peter Cullen man. Peter Cullen.

He was the only remotely tolerable thing about the Bay movies.

But on topic, the Death Star's manueverability is the problem, Unicron doesn't have to be faster than light he just needs to time his movements right to where the Death Star can't turn to hit him before the discharge happens from the firing phase and the bolt will travel into space, ruining someone's day, somewhere. Lightspeed weaponry means NOTHING with a firing charge of 2-3 seconds (Especially since Turbo Lasers aren't light speed.), especially with a beam as narrow as the Death Stars. It's great for blowing up planets, not so great for something that can shrink down to become so small as to be untargetable by the firing computers.

The Death Star needs luck, and relies on hyperdrive being faster than a Space Bridge (I believe the Space Bridge travels galactic distances in seconds, rather than the hours that it took others. Hot Rod, and Ironhide were able to travel freely between Earth and Cybertron within moments.), and I just can't side with that in this.

Also, I love you too KK, and respect your choice to disagree with my choice. It's a thing we can do on the internet. =V Seeing you back means I should PROBABLY return to FFRP as well. hrmm.

The Succubus

2012-06-14, 09:52 AM

Clearly the only way to resolve KK & Fan's argument is a duel to the death with a giant robot and a laser-equipped moon.

*nods sagely*

Fan

2012-06-14, 10:22 AM

Well, I'd lose that match simply because KK is also my nickname for Karkat, and I just can't fight that. =V

Also cause I don't fight old friends, specially since I owe him a bajillion thanks for all those avatars he's made me.

Dude's really awesome. Guy deserves all the praise I can give him and more.

What was the actual topic again?

Ashen Lilies

2012-06-14, 10:28 AM

Also, I love you too KK, and respect your choice to disagree with my choice. It's a thing we can do on the internet. =V Seeing you back means I should PROBABLY return to FFRP as well. hrmm.

I left? =O

Fragenstein

2012-06-14, 10:31 AM

What was the actual topic again?

Unicron takes on the Death Star. For the purposes of this fight, we're also allowing full gravitational force in drawing along key figures of both series, seeing as how both combatants were just that important in their respective universes.

So, you know, we can also discuss Insecticons Vs. X-Wings. Because I'm fairly certain that would happen.

Fan

2012-06-14, 10:35 AM

Unicron takes on the Death Star. For the purposes of this fight, we're also allowing full gravitational force in drawing along key figures of both series, seeing as how both combatants were just that important in their respective universes.

So, you know, we can also discuss Insecticons Vs. X-Wings. Because I'm fairly certain that would happen.

The transformers armada that the Autobots had in the original series was enough to blow up a moon sized asteroid, as far as I'm aware later on Unicron got hit by a combined Armada of both, and despite damage (Post his shields breaking down) had significant regeneration from damage to the point that the entire armada's continued fire wasn't able to permanently damage him.

Meaning, the dark side empowers Unicron, which funnily makes the commanders a debuff for the star wars side.

Reverent-One

2012-06-14, 10:45 AM

Ah, well, again. If not for OP limitations Unicron would have this in a stomp as they are retroactively the same Unicron.

I know, but the OP did give the limitations, so I was going with that. Out of curiousity, what are the specifics behind this retcon and where did it come from?

pendell

2012-06-14, 10:46 AM

While we're discussing "Unicron dodging the superlaser", there's something to keep in mind:

How exactly does Unicorn detect the superlaser coming at him to dodge it?

It's light. You won't see it coming before it hits you, because sight relies on light. Nothing else -- heat, neutrinos, what not -- moves fast enough to get somewhere before light does.

So there's no way for Unicron to see the beam coming and then dodge out of the way. If he sees the beam at all, it's because the weapon has already been fired and missed.

It might technically be possible to dodge if:
1) He can sense the power build up on the death star
2) Know that the build up is a superlaser preparing to fire.
3) Know where the thing is pointing.

In which case, he can get out of the way and dodge before it's actually fired. But I don't think he'll have the option of dodging it once fired.

Another option is if he has something like force prescience and can see the future. Then he can dodge -- again, because he knew what was coming and dodged out of the way first.

Or he could fly an evasive course, staying well outside the arc of fire in the first place.

It seems to me an entire battlestation is not an easy weapon to aim. So he should have a fairly easy time staying out of the firing line *provided he knows it's there*. If he doesn't and the death star gets that one shot off, it'll hit him.

Another consideration is that, though we saw the death star fire one planetbuster beam in Ep. IV. , We don't know how often it can fire shots of lesser magnitude. If it can fire more frequently with enough power to damage Unicron, that gives it a bit of a tactical advantage.

From the discussion here, I think Unicron has the advantage in that he's so tough -- based on the exploding moon in the movie -- that it's possible Unicron could actually absorb the hit from the superlaser full-on and keep coming. Even if he *swallowed* the death star and it self-destructed in his innards, it might not be enough to take him down.

It's because Unicron, in the movie, isn't just a machine. He's a mythological Devil-figure whom Galvatron makes a pact with. He is invulnerable to mortal weapons and can only be damaged by a supernatural weapon -- the Matrix, the "one thing, the ONLY thing, that can stand in my way".

If Unicron is truly vulnerable only to the Matrix , then he has a plot coupon against not just the death star but a thousand death stars. He is not a creature of this world, and weapons of this world cannot harm him.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Fragenstein

2012-06-14, 10:46 AM

The transformers armada that the Autobots had in the original series was enough to blow up a moon sized asteroid, as far as I'm aware later on Unicron got hit by a combined Armada of both, and despite damage (Post his shields breaking down) had significant regeneration from damage to the point that the entire armada's continued fire wasn't able to permanently damage him.

Meaning, the dark side empowers Unicron, which funnily makes the commanders a debuff for the star wars side.

Keep in mind that a sustained external attack was never even considered for either of the canon Death Stars. Those are fairly well shielded and armored as well. Both required an internal destructive mechanism, even after the shield projector in Return of the Jedi was taken offline.

I know, but the OP did give the limitations, so I was going with that. Out of curiousity, what are the specifics behind this retcon and where did it come from?

The various post-movie incarnations for Unicron really did get out of control. As has been mentioned, he went from being a very-large planet-eater to a mechanized incarnation of Chaos itself. Star Wars never allowed for the Death Star's importance to spiral so drastically.

So to keep things fair, we're only considering aspects displayed in both forces' original movie appearances. Plus supporting casts, of course.

Fan

2012-06-14, 10:56 AM

I know, but the OP did give the limitations, so I was going with that. Out of curiousity, what are the specifics behind this retcon and where did it come from?

The official statement here (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Canon)regarding the Transformers continuity (Original Cartoon, Comic, and Movie Continuity.), it's also an official statement that I need to find that Unicron is considered the same version throughout all official Hasbro endorsed representations.

Also the reason a sustained attack was never considered is because the Death Star had those critical internal weaknesses and the fleets of Tie Fighters inside, combined with the entrenched defensive turrets that bristle across the station would be too much for any modern fleet at the time to take care of.

However, externally, the Death Star is not invulnerable, the Dark Saber (A more advanced Death Star Prototype.), had 33% of it's infrastructure dissolved by a Suncrusher Torpedo not intended for the purpose, but similar enough in it's energy conversion principles as to resemble Unicron's own planet devouring ability on a micro scale.

JustSomeGuy

2012-06-14, 11:00 AM

pendell

2012-06-14, 11:17 AM

does the force count as supernatural

I would say so, yes. If we're going by the movie powers though, it's reduced to choking people a meter away and the ability to alter fate, destiny. (See that Luke is able to perform a humanly possible task without a targeting computer when Red Leader, a pilot of vastly superior expertise and skill, failed to do).

The point of Red Leader in Episode IV was to show the limits of mortal humans absent the force -- they did all they could, all that humans could do, but it wasn't enough. It took the Force, working through a force-sensitive individual (Luke), to push them over the edge and do what is humanly impossible.

So if we're using Movie-Force, the Death Star can win through a ridiculous series of "lucky" contrivances which are actually Force-guided. This assumes Unicron has no ability to sense or manipulate the Force, in which case he can shape the currents of the Force such that these "coincidences" actually bring about the doom of the Imperials, not their remarkable salvation.

If we allow Expanded Universe shenanigans, where people blow up suns with their minds or conjure up solar-system wide Force Storms or pull star destroyers from orbit (as in The Force Unleashed) -- well, it's another ball of wax altogether.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The Glyphstone

2012-06-14, 11:20 AM

pendell

2012-06-14, 11:24 AM

Even otherwise, it is a common piece of Vs. matches to remove combatants' 'plot immunities' for the sake of an argument to be possible. In this case, Unicron's immunity to anything but the Matrix wouldn't exist if the Matrix doesn't exist for his enemy to use against him.

Okay. My question, then, is: Can Unicron survive a direct hit from the superlaser, given he already survived a moon blowing up in his mouth?

If the answer to the question is "yes", the argument is moot, I think.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Fan

2012-06-14, 11:36 AM

pendell

2012-06-14, 11:58 AM

The thing is, I don't see it permanently putting him down, and given movie darkside is nothing BUT negative emotions it seems to me like movie Unicron is already a darkside engine, and hitting him with it would do nothing but feed him.

If you attack him with it directly, perhaps.

If you use it to guide your actions, though, it's not attacking him directly. Whether it's a jedi using that guidance to aim a proton torpedo or to block a blaster bolt with a lightsaber, there are a million and one combat uses for the force besides simply blasting people with it.

The question then becomes, does Unicron have sufficient command of the force to mess up their perception and cause them to metaphorically cut off their own feet with a lightsaber, because the perception they're relying on is clouded. That's what the Emperor did to the Jedi council in the prequels, and most of them died without ever directly encountering the Emperor. They died because the Force had turned against them, blinding them and clouding their vision. Mace and Yoda commented on this frequently.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Fan

2012-06-14, 12:10 PM

If you attack him with it directly, perhaps.

If you use it to guide your actions, though, it's not attacking him directly. Whether it's a jedi using that guidance to aim a proton torpedo or to block a blaster bolt with a lightsaber, there are a million and one combat uses for the force besides simply blasting people with it.

The question then becomes, does Unicron have sufficient command of the force to mess up their perception and cause them to metaphorically cut off their own feet with a lightsaber, because the perception they're relying on is clouded. That's what the Emperor did to the Jedi council in the prequels, and most of them died without ever directly encountering the Emperor. They died because the Force had turned against them, blinding them and clouding their vision. Mace and Yoda commented on this frequently.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The thing is, he can feed on it being used ambiently, even just things like anger and hate being used in a war feed him. (The example given was him feeding off the negative emotions produced by the Decepticon V.S. Autobot battle), and the more evil there is in the verse, the stronger he gets. And vice versa.

pendell

2012-06-14, 12:19 PM

The thing is, he can feed on it being used ambiently, even just things like anger and hate being used in a war (The example given was him feeding off the negative emotions produced by the Decepticon V.S. Autobot battle.), and the more evil there is in the verse, the stronger he gets. And vice versa.

Which presumably is why the Jedi have the whole "there is no passion, there is peace" thing going. They aren't supposed to feed energy into the Force, they are supposed to sense what's already there and ride it's currents to the proper conclusion. Emotional energy of their own is like switching on death metal music while simultaneously trying to listen to a lecturer at the front of a hall -- it distorts, breaks up the signal.

Such people would not give Unicron any additional force to feed on.

Of course, with the Death Star, we're dealing with Darksiders who have an entirely different approach to the Force. To them, strong emotion is the primary ingredient in their actions, because rather than listening to the Force and riding the currents, they are trying to *impose change*. Emotion impacts the force. They expect to use their emotional energy to bend, to shape, to twist the force to their will. Rather than submitting to the Force, they seek to master it, to shape the Force , and thus the universe, to bend to their will through raw desire. To make a child be born solely from midichlorians on a planet thousands of light years away, for example.

If Unicron is the dark side engine you describe, then I agree Dark Side force users would have a great deal of trouble against him, because their raw emotion will feed Unicron. Light side Jedi might actually have a much better chance.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Fragenstein

2012-06-14, 12:51 PM

If Unicron is the dark side engine you describe, then I agree Dark Side force users would have a great deal of trouble against him, because their raw emotion will feed Unicron. Light side Jedi might actually have a much better chance.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

It's always possible that the Sith might even be consumed and reconstructed by Unicron in the same way that Megatron and the other wounded decepticons were. I suppose it depends on his manufacturing capabilities at the time.

And, yes, I do realize that the Hasbro continuity is expected to remain consistant over all incarnations, but honestly... did they have the Chaos God element figured out that far back? Or did they just write a later set of stories that didn't clash with the original movie and said "Well, yeah, he was a god all along".

Space Bridges: I seem to remember a great deal of trouble in constructing a space bridge. Can those be used on the fly like Hyperdrives? Didn't the Ark originally have to reach a jump point for the interrupted journey it made to Earth? Didn't they then have a great deal of trouble building a new space bridge terminal to use from their new home?

I'll admit, I'm a little hazy on that one. But it seems as if space bridges don't allow for quite the same ease of travel that hyperdrives do.

Dark Saber: Remember that it was a stripped down version of the Death Star with its external structure missing. No armor, little in the way of shield generators and lacking the majority of mass between the main gun and the outter shell. In fact, it was basically the Death Star reduced to nothing BUT the gun. The full build might be more difficult to assualt.

Also consider a scenario where the Death Star's laser keeps Unicron at bay, forcing each other to battle through their subordinates/canon heroes. How might that factor in?

Aotrs Commander

2012-06-14, 01:10 PM

Okay. My question, then, is: Can Unicron survive a direct hit from the superlaser, given he already survived a moon blowing up in his mouth?

If the answer to the question is "yes", the argument is moot, I think.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Well, Unicron was quite able to be damaged by Grimlock and the Dinobots, not to mention that starship crashing through his eye...

Either the Moon 2 explosive were really crappy (likely, given Autobots...!) or Grimlock is hard enough to damage something that can blow up planetoids by kicking it...!

Actually, either explanation suits me...!

Fan

2012-06-14, 01:12 PM

I would say Galvatron, and the Decepticons would rip apart the standard retinue that the Death Star I has, just given by the fact that X Wings were able to assault it and they are FAR less durable than an Decepticon, and given by general feats Photon Torpedo's are less destructive.

They are also living targeting computers, so I'd hazard they could make the exhaust port shot as well.

As for Space Bridges, yes, they have to be constructed, but generally you can get them anywhere between Point A, and Point B.

As for retcons, the transformers verse is full of them. The original story for Optimus was that he was rebuilt after Orion took a near fatal wound from the decepticons post being a dock worker, and was just straight up Optimus Prime from then on.

It was later ret conned that Optimus was given his power / shape through the Matrix of Leadership, pretty much everything involving Unicron is a retcon.

Also, as far as I remember, all of that damage was merely cosmetic, and Unicron was allowing himself to be fought to feed off of those negative emotions, and he regenerates it on screen.

He's not a Chaos God quite then, but he does rip Megatron out of the middle of nowhere space, and manipulates matter / energy in order to create Galvatron, and his cronies.

pendell

2012-06-14, 02:00 PM

And, yes, I do realize that the Hasbro continuity is expected to remain consistant over all incarnations, but honestly... did they have the Chaos God element figured out that far back? Or did they just write a later set of stories that didn't clash with the original movie and said "Well, yeah, he was a god all along".

Truth be told, I watched the movie again last year (the last time I saw it was in 1985 as a teenager), and "Chaos God" instantly leaped to mind. Possibly because now that I'm older I see the mythology underneath the poorly-disguised toy advertisement :).

I'm not sure Unicron IS a chaos god, but he is meant to fill that role in the Transformers movie. Doesn't mean he IS one. Just that he is LIKE one enough to fill in for one in the context of the movie's epic. Which is -- forget which one of Joseph Campbell's stories it is -- Evil has come. It is unconquerable and invincible. Will you surrender to it or try to bargain with it (as Galvatron did?) Will you try to beat it using natural wisdom and skill (as Ultra Magnus did)? Or are you a 'holy fool', like Elan or Hot Rod, who are pretty stupid but act on their hearts rather than their heads and actually solve the day through Deus Ex Machina? An empty vessel, which being empty means it's ready for the universe to dump a batch of miracle into it, so they can do impossible things? Sort of like how the Roadrunner would always subvert Wile E' Coyote's grand plans, because for whatever reason the universe just plain *liked* the Roadrunner and would bend over backwards to make Wile E's plans come part.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2012-06-14, 02:13 PM

However, externally, the Death Star is not invulnerable, the Dark Saber (A more advanced Death Star Prototype.), had 33% of it's infrastructure dissolved by a Suncrusher Torpedo not intended for the purpose, but similar enough in it's energy conversion principles as to resemble Unicron's own planet devouring ability on a micro scale.

I think a couple of stories are being conflated here- The Death Star Prototype (testbed for the superlaser, looks like a small, skeletal Death Star) had bits of it chewed up by the Sun Crusher's resonance torpedoes- but the Darksaber was built a year after the Sun Crusher was sucked into a black hole.

I wonder how the Death Star 2 might have done in this sort of battle? No thermal exhaust port (it has many microscopic exhaust points instead) - better shielding (no holes for starfighters to slip through)- and if you believe the specifications that have been given for it, the DS2 could fire planet-busting shots every 3 minutes, with a maximum range of 400 million km (optimal range of 2 million km).
If it can fire slightly reduced shots more rapidly- one can imagine a DS2 blazing away on rapid-fire.

If we allow Expanded Universe shenanigans, where people blow up suns with their minds or conjure up solar-system wide Force Storms or pull star destroyers from orbit (as in The Force Unleashed) -- well, it's another ball of wax altogether.

Most of the EU shenanigans usually come with some caveats. In the novel of The Force Unleashed, the Star Destroyer is already coming down to strafe Starkiller- he adjusts its course just enough to crash it. The Sith Supernova Spell required rare Sith crystals installed on the starship of the guy using it (Naga Sadow). And Force Storms are a little tricky for even Palpatine to control- though he boasts (untruthfully) that his control is perfect.

Fan

2012-06-14, 02:31 PM

I think a couple of stories are being conflated here- The Death Star Prototype (testbed for the superlaser, looks like a small, skeletal Death Star) had bits of it chewed up by the Sun Crusher's resonance torpedoes- but the Darksaber was built a year after the Sun Crusher was sucked into a black hole.

I wonder how the Death Star 2 might have done in this sort of battle? No thermal exhaust port (it has many microscopic exhaust points instead) - better shielding (no holes for starfighters to slip through)- and if you believe the specifications that have been given for it, the DS2 could fire planet-busting shots every 3 minutes, with a maximum range of 400 million km (optimal range of 2 million km).
If it can fire slightly reduced shots more rapidly- one can imagine a DS2 blazing away on rapid-fire.

Most of the EU shenanigans usually come with some caveats. In the novel of The Force Unleashed, the Star Destroyer is already coming down to strafe Starkiller- he adjusts its course just enough to crash it. The Sith Supernova Spell required rare Sith crystals installed on the starship of the guy using it (Naga Sadow). And Force Storms are a little tricky for even Palpatine to control- though he boasts (untruthfully) that his control is perfect.

I do remember the resonance torpedo's being used on something incredibly large, with a super structure to dissolve though. I just read it, and Dark Saber one after the other.. so I guess that is where my conflict came from.

hamishspence

2012-06-14, 02:39 PM

Fan

2012-06-14, 02:44 PM

Makes sense.

The first Death Star is also capable of firing "duster rather than buster" shots- more powerful than all the guns on an Imperial Star Destroyer firing once at full power- but not enough to do more than boil a large lake/small sea, or "scorch a city or two"

Using the lower setting might enable it to fire more often than once every 24 hours- repeated low powered shots could be quite dangerous.

If "carries a firepower greater than half the star fleet" refers to the ten thousand turbolaser batteries, counted separately from the superlaser, those might provide something of a challenge as well.

Again though, the question is less of "Does it have enough fire power to overcome Unicron's direct damage resistance.", and more if it could permanently damage him in any meaningful sense given he would essentially have an endless battery from people like Tarkin, The Emperor, and Vader to feed off of.

Just Galvatron alone was enough to feed him to the point where the entire fleet was unable to damage him, and his death meant the difference between Unicron's existence or not.

So with the equivalent to three or four Galvatron's running around, many of them projecting constant auras of negative emotions, he'd end up almost super powered.

Deepbluediver

2012-06-14, 02:47 PM

While this may not exactly be the battle of the planets, it's at least the battle of the Really Big Space Stations. Both of which are quite lethal and capable of destroying planets. Which would win?

This is kind of like a barbarian vs. a wizard. The death star is the wizard, if it spots Unicron first it nukes him. If Unicron manages to get within melee range, he'll eat the Death Star alive (figuratively speaking).

hamishspence

2012-06-14, 02:47 PM

Does it need to have Vader, Palpatine etc on board? It's Unicron Vs A Death Star, not Unicron Vs A Death Star & Friends.

Are we going for long term or a short term "who'd win this round"?

Fan

2012-06-14, 02:51 PM

Does it need to have Vader, Palpatine etc on board? It's Unicron Vs A Death Star, not Unicron Vs A Death Star & Friends.

Are we going for long term or a short term "who'd win this round"?

It was the OP conditions along with it being movie Unicron as his limitation.

Otherwise, Unicron would take the entire SW Universe in a hillarious Lolstomp.

hamishspence

2012-06-14, 03:00 PM

The OP does mention Vader at the head of the TIE squadrons- but not Palpatine, at least in the first post.

Just how tough is Unicron anyway? Will a superlaser shot put a hole in him, make a big chunk of him detonate, cause a chunk of him to implode into hyperspace (novel- Death Star describes this happening to planets when the super laser's at full power)- or will the superlaser beam simply bounce off?

Fan

2012-06-14, 03:04 PM

hamishspence

2012-06-14, 03:16 PM

Fan

2012-06-14, 03:29 PM

Transformers size varies a lot- some pics of Cybertron make it look much smaller, rather than larger, than Earth.

Unicron's size also seems a bit flexible- witness the scene where he swallows Galvatron.

Well, he has canonical size measurements as does cybertron. If the OP will be gracious enough to allow these outside movie calcs (as it does vary within the movie.), I'd be happy to post them.

Aotrs Commander

2012-06-14, 03:36 PM

Given his size, it wont kill him, the guy is bigger than a planet the size of Saturn, has a shield that can hold up against the Autobot / Decepticon Alliance Armada grade bombardment. Which the Autobot partial Armada alone was able to blow up a moon sized asteroid.

He also survived having a moon laden with explosives shoved down his throat without so much as a scratch, so that speaks for internal durability as well.

And, like I said, he was also damaged by regular, okay, fairly heavy Autobot combat troops (the Dinobots) - which annoyed him enough to try swatting them personally - and a relatively small space craft (the one the Autobots stole form the Quintessons, I say small since if you compare it to Hod Rod when he opens the hatch and it lands on Junk) smashed through his eye without much hinderance).

hamishspence

2012-06-14, 03:37 PM

On the wiki you linked to earlier, the Cybertron page mentions it has different sizes in different continuities. Saturn-sized in the Marvel continuity- but smaller in the Unicron Trilogy:

It is unknown how large Cybertron is in this continuity, but it is most likely the size of Earth or smaller. Cybertron has an atmosphere, but it was unbreathable by Earth life forms as when Rad, Carlos and Alexis visited the planet in 2010, they required spacesuits to operate on the surface; by 2020, however, humans were capable of surviving without specialised suits, indicating that an oxygen/nitrogen-based atmosphere may have somehow been generated by the planet or created by Transformers or humans artificially.

Fan

2012-06-14, 03:52 PM

We generally don't take the lowest end durability feats as proof when there's more showings, and more showings in line with intent as regards to stating a general range of out of universe durability. Two Showings at seperate story points generally > One showing that was really only done to give the Dinobots a point to being there.

That was also post his shields being brought down by the combined Aramada, as a note.

Aotrs Commander

2012-06-14, 03:59 PM

On the wiki you linked to earlier, the Cybertron page mentions it has different sizes in different continuities. Saturn-sized in the Marvel continuity- but smaller in the Unicron Trilogy:

As someone who has only recently read the Transformers Marvel continutity, I have say that that measurement is rather cobblers when compared to the artwork in all depictions on Unicron in the Marvel comics. They may have said that how big he was supposed to be (though they didn't in the actual comics themselves), but that was never shown in the actual artwork and actions (which had Unicron doing things like impaling and eating individual Tranformers on the tip of his claws, and breathing energy attacks that killed individual Transformers without, say levelling the entire city around them which is should have done if Unicron was actually as big as that.)

(For that matter, the saturn-size is a dervived measure from the very first Marvel Transformers comic size of Cybertron, and again, it's informed by the opening paragraph, but never mentioned again, nor it that consistant with the artwork across the series, which generally seems to show Cybertron as much smaller than Earth1. And as the later depictions of both Unicron and Cybertron where more extensive, and reliable, I tend towards trusting the latter given the inconsistencies.)

Note that even an Earth-moon-sized Unicron is significantly bigger than the Death Star, even with the upper estimations of the Death Star's size.

1Leaving aside the fact that a planet the size of Cybertron made of metal would have a phenominal mass and gravity, not the near-1G that seems to be consistantly shown in all depictions, and getting toward being within only one magnitude of having enough mass to become a star...!

Fan

2012-06-14, 04:03 PM

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n49/shangralaaaa17/UNICRON-EARTH.jpg

This disagrees with you. =V

hamishspence

2012-06-14, 04:12 PM

Note that even an Earth-moon-sized Unicron is significantly bigger than the Death Star, even with the upper estimations of the Death Star's size.

The upper estimate for DS1 was 160 km- not a huge increase over the original figure of 120 km.

The upper estimate for the DS2 was 900 km compared to the original 160 km.

While the newest books have used the new figures- the figure for the DS2 is not consistent with the most recent figure for the size of the Forest Moon- only 4900 km diameter- Mercury-sized.

Either way- the DS2's a lot smaller than Earth's moon.

Aotrs Commander

2012-06-14, 04:33 PM

The upper estimate for DS1 was 160 km- not a huge increase over the original figure of 120 km.

The upper estimate for the DS2 was 900 km compared to the original 160 km.

While the newest books have used the new figures- the figure for the DS2 is not consistent with the most recent figure for the size of the Forest Moon- only 4900 km diameter- Mercury-sized.

Either way- the DS2's a lot smaller than Earth's moon.

Exactly.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n49/shangralaaaa17/UNICRON-EARTH.jpg

This disagrees with you. =V

If that isn't a cover poster or promotional picture I'll eat my helmet. They're often out of scale from dramatic/artistic purposes... Allow me to counter with this...!

http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/70/MarvelUK-182.jpg

And, unless it's a US TF-specific cover, it's also not the Marvel Unicron.

Here's some pictures from the actual Marvel comic run, as many as I could find with a google search.

http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/thumb/d/d0/LegacyofUnicron-Unicron.jpg/250px-LegacyofUnicron-Unicron.jpg
http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/thumb/b/b5/FallenAngel-Unicron.jpg/250px-FallenAngel-Unicron.jpg

These last three are pretty much in order.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_iKLevhkVaMo/TNw-apGHk1I/AAAAAAAACEo/tF9lqfFh3K4/s1600/Unicron+arrives.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iKLevhkVaMo/TOVpLP9l24I/AAAAAAAACE4/eCxPVrF8qWg/s1600/unicron+splash.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/transformers/images/c/cb/Tastybrainstorm.jpg

Big, massive, even, but not giant planetary-scale, not even close.

hamishspence

2012-06-14, 04:44 PM

Here's some pictures from the actual Marvel comic run, as many as I could find with a google search.

Picture 3 seems to depict a very small Cybertron- the robots are clearly visible, yet so is the curvature of the planet.

I think the movie had an element of this as well.

Aotrs Commander

2012-06-14, 04:50 PM

Picture 3 seems to depict a very small Cybertron- the robots are clearly visible, yet so is the curvature of the planet.

I think the movie had an element of this as well.

Yeah. Cybertron generally seems to be depictated as a much smaller planet, given that's it's virtually always drawn with surface buildings visible.

The real question in that image, is why Unicorn has male and female toilets in his ribcage... and who uses them? Did anyone spot that? Oh, those whacky TF artists!

Fan

2012-06-14, 04:56 PM

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-y5sbBOrtBPk/Tvhu8mOHyxI/AAAAAAAAA7I/WWIxnydlIpc/s1600/Unicron+latest.jpg

We can go bigger. =V

Aotrs Commander

2012-06-14, 05:07 PM

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-y5sbBOrtBPk/Tvhu8mOHyxI/AAAAAAAAA7I/WWIxnydlIpc/s1600/Unicron+latest.jpg

We can go bigger. =V

That's fan art. (http://clintonfelker.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/unicronupdate.html)

Wouldn't be overly surprised to find that first one you posted was, actually, given the lack of any text features. Can't find the original source to know, though.

Fan

2012-06-14, 05:08 PM

Aotrs Commander

2012-06-14, 05:16 PM

Weird, I found it in a Hasbro Toyetic Guide for the Unicron Transformer toy along with a few others that were part of official art books, guess they mix in fan elements these days for online reviews.

It had a scale chart and everything too. Pity.

I saw the same page; there was a line or two above where he said he'd trawled the net for some images of Unicorn and was showing his favourites, of which that was the first. I just used google image search using "more sizes" to find the largest one, which turned out to be the source image - which I wanted to find, to find out whether it was canon or not, and if so, what continuity.

It's damned good quality fanart, mind. (Though not surprising, since the MLP fandom has shown there are a phenominal amount of superbly talented fanartists out there!) Had I not looked it up and found it so, I would have believed it had come from an official source, and indeed which source was what made me investigate!

Fan

2012-06-14, 05:19 PM

I saw the same page; there was a line or two above where he said he'd trawled the net for some images of Unicorn and was showing his favourites, of which that was the first. I just used google image search using "more sizes" to find the largest one, which turned out to be the source image - which I wanted to find, to find out whether it was canon or not, and if so, what continuity.

It's damned good quality fanart, mind. (Though not surprising, since the MLP fandom has shown there are a phenominal amount of superbly talented fanartists out there!) Had I not looked it up and found it so, I would have believed it had come from an official source, and indeed which source was what made me investigate!

Eh, you win some you lose some, sometimes it turns out to be fanart.

but now we know, alothough I know for a fact that one I posted is from a more recent part of the marvel comics involving the return of Unicron, and that's his almost victory pose.

hamishspence

2012-06-14, 05:27 PM

Yeah. Cybertron generally seems to be depictated as a much smaller planet, given that's it's virtually always drawn with surface buildings visible.

this is a bit less suggestive- what with the possibility of them being super-sized buildings.

The planetary curvature in scenes where robots are still visible, seems like stronger evidence.

Though it could always be artistic licence.

One could have Unicron deliberately shrinking himself every time he eats a robot (to maximise the amount of robot he can taste compared to his own size) but this seems like a bit of a stretch.

Anarion

2012-06-14, 06:36 PM

I saw the same page; there was a line or two above where he said he'd trawled the net for some images of Unicorn and was showing his favourites, of which that was the first. I just used google image search using "more sizes" to find the largest one, which turned out to be the source image - which I wanted to find, to find out whether it was canon or not, and if so, what continuity.

It's damned good quality fanart, mind. (Though not surprising, since the MLP fandom has shown there are a phenominal amount of superbly talented fanartists out there!) Had I not looked it up and found it so, I would have believed it had come from an official source, and indeed which source was what made me investigate!

I'm mostly here to point out the humorous typo bolded in the quote and suggest that ponythread has gotten the better of our fair lich.

But since I'm here anyway, I do have a question. What would be the size and location of Unicron's spark? It seems to me that would be a significant vulnerability. Such that if the death star was able to aim properly and penetrate Unicron's armor, then even if he was several degrees larger than it, a direct shot at his spark could destroy him.

Aotrs Commander

2012-06-14, 06:40 PM

I'm mostly here to point out the humorous typo bolded in the quote and suggest that ponythread has gotten the better of our fair lich.

Fragdammit! I was trying SO HARD not to make that mistake! I ended up typing the damned word twice everytime, because everytime I did, I typed "unicorn" first! Graaaaagh!

Semi-related: I have often thought that the Healer class would be somewhat improved to playability by the application of the same spelling error to their companion ability.

The Glyphstone

2012-06-14, 06:44 PM

Fragdammit! I was trying SO HARD not to make that mistake! I ended up typing the damned word twice everytime, because everytime I did, I typed "unicorn" first! Graaaaagh!

Semi-related: I have often thought that the Healer class would be somewhat improved to playability by the application of the same spelling error to their companion ability.

You mean the opposite spelling error, right?

hamishspence

2012-06-14, 06:50 PM

What would be the size and location of Unicron's spark? It seems to me that would be a significant vulnerability. Such that if the death star was able to aim properly and penetrate Unicron's armor, then even if he was several degrees larger than it, a direct shot at his spark could destroy him.

We know the DS1 could destroy planets- though how might depend on the writer.

In Dark Forces: Soldier for the Empire (novelization of part of the Dark Forces game), Kyle's description of it was:

"a laser capable of drilling down through miles of rock, hitting the planetary core, and triggering an explosion so massive it would tear the world apart"

In the A New Hope novelization, Luke thinks that the destruction of the Great Temple- and Yavin itself, would pose "just another problem in mass-energy conversion" for the DS1.

And in the novel Death Star, the beam at full power is described by its operator as providing a "superliminal boost, shunting much of the target's mass into hyperspace"

So if the beam can hit anywhere near the vulnerable spot, the planet-sized destroyed area (possibly larger if the detonation can affect areas outside the target zone) might be enough.

Anarion

2012-06-14, 07:39 PM

You mean the opposite spelling error, right?

No, based on his phrasing, I think he means that a unicorn pet is better than a Unicron pet.

We know the DS1 could destroy planets- though how might depend on the writer.

In Dark Forces: Soldier for the Empire (novelization of part of the Dark Forces game), Kyle's description of it was:

"a laser capable of drilling down through miles of rock, hitting the planetary core, and triggering an explosion so massive it would tear the world apart"

In the A New Hope novelization, Luke thinks that the destruction of the Great Temple- and Yavin itself, would pose "just another problem in mass-energy conversion" for the DS1.

And in the novel Death Star, the beam at full power is described by its operator as providing a "superliminal boost, shunting much of the target's mass into hyperspace"

So if the beam can hit anywhere near the vulnerable spot, the planet-sized destroyed area (possibly larger if the detonation can affect areas outside the target zone) might be enough.

It doesn't actually say you get a planet-sized destroyed area though. You get a beam that can set off a chain reaction in a planet core. Based on your description, it implies that the death star beam could probably reach Unicron's spark. That still raises the question of whether the spark has adequate shielding to sustain a hit from the beam without losing its integrity or not. I'm not even sure what would happen if some parts of Unicron were shunted into hyperspace. Doesn't he sort of exist multidimensionally?

The Glyphstone

2012-06-14, 08:14 PM

No, based on his phrasing, I think he means that a unicorn pet is better than a Unicron pet.

A Unicron pet would make the Healer indescribably more badass, though.

Fan

2012-06-15, 05:41 AM

We know the DS1 could destroy planets- though how might depend on the writer.

In Dark Forces: Soldier for the Empire (novelization of part of the Dark Forces game), Kyle's description of it was:

"a laser capable of drilling down through miles of rock, hitting the planetary core, and triggering an explosion so massive it would tear the world apart"

In the A New Hope novelization, Luke thinks that the destruction of the Great Temple- and Yavin itself, would pose "just another problem in mass-energy conversion" for the DS1.

And in the novel Death Star, the beam at full power is described by its operator as providing a "superliminal boost, shunting much of the target's mass into hyperspace"

So if the beam can hit anywhere near the vulnerable spot, the planet-sized destroyed area (possibly larger if the detonation can affect areas outside the target zone) might be enough.

One flaw in all of this though.

How on Earth are they going to know where Unicron's spark is?

And then, they have to aim at a target that is clearly pretty fast Sub Lumlinal (Judging by his ability to casually jump on top of a planet AT LEAST the size of Earth, he's at least massively hypersonic with lightspeed reaction times if we're to believe that the transformers weapons are in fact Photon Cannons. Couple that with his stated feat of going from orbit to planet within the span of a second in movie, placing him easily in the Mach 15-25 range, as opposed to the Death Star which had to wait an hour to orbit a planet with the moon's orbit bringing it into alignment with it.)

It's A: Hitting a Moving target that knows how to avoid a laser beam, serpentine pattern all that jazz, and B: Hitting a moving target in a specific location while avoiding the instant KO that is him closing into melee range with a linear projectile with literally infinite directions to avoid it with.

I don't see it happening within anything but a severe tilt to the Starwars side.. which this already is.

pendell

2012-06-15, 07:08 AM

One flaw in all of this though.

How on Earth are they going to know where Unicron's spark is?

And then, they have to aim at a target that is clearly pretty fast Sub Lumlinal (Judging by his ability to casually jump on top of a planet AT LEAST the size of Earth, he's at least massively hypersonic with lightspeed reaction times if we're to believe that the transformers weapons are in fact Photon Cannons. Couple that with his stated feat of going from orbit to planet within the span of a second in movie, placing him easily in the Mach 15-25 range, as opposed to the Death Star which had to wait an hour to orbit a planet with the moon's orbit bringing it into alignment with it.)

It's A: Hitting a Moving target that knows how to avoid a laser beam, serpentine pattern all that jazz, and B: Hitting a moving target in a specific location while avoiding the instant KO that is him closing into melee range with a linear projectile with literally infinite directions to avoid it with.

I don't see it happening within anything but a severe tilt to the Starwars side.. which this already is.

Indeed. The first question is : How does the death star crew know what a spark *is*? It's like telling a stone age cave man to disable an automobile by pouring sugar into its fuel tank. Obvious response: "What's a fuel tank? Where is it? How do I open it? What do I look for?"

Knowing is half the battle, after all :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Fragenstein

2012-06-15, 07:26 AM

Indeed. The first question is : How does the death star crew know what a spark *is*?

Bothan Sacrifice. Always good for finding things out.

More realistically, if Unicron really is a Darkside Engine as people have theorized, then it's possible his spark could just be detected by a force-sensitive character.

Fan

2012-06-15, 07:29 AM

Bothan Sacrifice. Always good for finding things out.

More realistically, if Unicron really is a Darkside Engine as people have theorized, then it's possible his spark could just be detected by a force-sensitive character.

The thing is a, Dark Side Engine as large as Unicron would operate in the same way as Dagobah did for Yoda, massive dispersal of darkside energy make finding the centers of it extremely difficult, and I don't see any boarding party sent in to find out surviving Galvatron and his cronies.

Xondoure

2012-06-19, 06:46 PM

The thing is a, Dark Side Engine as large as Unicron would operate in the same way as Dagobah did for Yoda, massive dispersal of darkside energy make finding the centers of it extremely difficult, and I don't see any boarding party sent in to find out surviving Galvatron and his cronies.

How does that follow? Yoda's energy signature was masked by the planet's (mind you this is all EU) but that doesn't mean the planet wasn't clearly visible to a force sensitive.

Edit: this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzoeEdW-EDQ) is somehow relevant.

Fan

2012-06-19, 07:02 PM

How does that follow? Yoda's energy signature was masked by the planet's (mind you this is all EU) but that doesn't mean the planet wasn't clearly visible to a force sensitive.

I was going by the fact that Luke (also a force sensitive.), wasn't able to discern the location of the caves on Dagobah without experiencing them first hand as a Dark Side Nexus, it's also been proven again that exceptionally evil artifacts (Such as the Sith Temples, etc.), can hide on Planets with naturally high dark side resonance due to the strength of the dark side coming off of the planet itself.

Unicron's own mass is far greater than that of a planet, and dispersed as it is it would be obscenely difficult for anyone to find the location of the spark.

Plus, in a Darth Vader (movies) V.S. Galvatron fight, I'm going to bet it's going to end up like Grey Fox did against Metal Gear, probably almost exactly. Same with any other such (movie) star wars characters.

Combined with the fact that Darth Vader of all people isn't going to be targeting the death star personally, same with the Emperor. They don't preform those tasks, Darth Vader may pilot his squad out with a tie bomber and try to do some damage that way, but Cyclonous and his cronies are going strafe, transform, and rip the wings off of the tie fighters. Now, they WILL be swarmed, but that's a debate on whether or not Unicron can create enough to do as such with the same matter manipulation he used to create them in the first place.