Earliest/lowest Save-or-Die

[Morph Bark]

What is the earliest level you can have a Save-or-Die spell/power/effect?

Alternatively, what Save-or-Die has the lowest DC?

[Mikal]

What is the earliest level you can have a Save-or-Die spell/power/effect?

Alternatively, what Save-or-Die has the lowest DC?

Level (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sleep) 1 (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Color_spray)

[supermonkeyjoe]

IIRC the fist proper Save-or-actually-Die in core is Phantasmal Killer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantasmalKiller.htm) at 4th level, mostly because you need to fail both a will and a fortitude save to be killed

[Lonely Tylenol]

Assuming you mean literal save or die, as in death effect and related spells, Phantasmal Killer is the first, attainable at level 7 as a Wizard without cheese.

As far as the lowest save DC for a death effect or related effect, since there is no Int requirement to be an Assassin or to use Death Attack, a Half-Orc baseclass X/Assassin 1 would have a Death Attack DC of 9 dumping INT out of Point Buy. (Theoretically, the lowest a PC could have their save DC is 7, if the Assassin has an INT score of 3.)

[Morph Bark]

Level (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sleep) 1 (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Color_spray)

Save-or-Die =/= Save-or-Lose.

[Mikal]

Save-or-Die =/= Save-or-Lose.

I disagree. You fail the save, you're dead. Only difference is it takes one extra action to accomplish the deed.

Dead is dead is dead after all.

[Eldariel]

I disagree. You fail the save, you're dead. Only difference is it takes one extra action to accomplish the deed.

Dead is dead is dead after all.

Well, there's the difference that in some circumstances, Color Spray or Sleep might not kill you. For instance, in the middle of a bigger fight it's very likely that nobody can spare the full-round to CDG the target simply because that's a full round of not attacking the active opponents. And any friendlies nearby can wake up Sleep-affected creatures with a standard action (again, costs actions but still an option).

[Morph Bark]

I disagree. You fail the save, you're dead. Only difference is it takes one extra action to accomplish the deed.

Dead is dead is dead after all.

The definition of "Save-or-Die" is that if you lose the save, you are instantly dead. Hence why I specifically asked for Save-or-Die spells, not "spells that if you lose the save thereof means you are dead or are going to be soon".


Assuming you mean literal save or die, as in death effect and related spells, Phantasmal Killer is the first, attainable at level 7 as a Wizard without cheese.

As far as the lowest save DC for a death effect or related effect, since there is no Int requirement to be an Assassin or to use Death Attack, a Half-Orc baseclass X/Assassin 1 would have a Death Attack DC of 9 dumping INT out of Point Buy. (Theoretically, the lowest a PC could have their save DC is 7, if the Assassin has an INT score of 3.)

Hmm, Phantasmal Killer requires two saves. Is there an early/low-DC SoD that requires only one?

I have to admit, the low-DC death attack assassin idea is hilarious.

[Hecuba]

I disagree. You fail the save, you're dead. Only difference is it takes one extra action to accomplish the deed.

Dead is dead is dead after all.

There are actions they could take other than killing you after you've failed those save. They could knock you out with non-lethal damage. They could tie you up. They can take any number of options that would still qualify as defeating you.

Whereas a proper save-or-die does not have that flexibility. Just because you can re-purpose them to the same goal does not make them the same.

[panaikhan]

The PrC "Quori Nightmare" from Races of Eberron gives you Phantasmal Killer.
Doubt if it's before a wizard (I think it's class level 4), but it is a psionic-based class.
Edit - Quori Nightmare also has a 'touch kills' power as it's capstone (class level 5)
Both are limited use, but neh.

[Hirax]

Flesh to ice is level 5. Is that good enough?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Hmm, Phantasmal Killer requires two saves. Is there an early/low-DC SoD that requires only one?

Cloudkill at level 5, and maybe a couple others, which have conditions; I think Slay Living (Cleric 5), which is a touch attack followed by a Fort save-or-die, is the closest thing to an unconditional 5th-level SoD spell (but prove me wrong, Playground). There are a rash of save-or-dies at level 6, such as Opalescent Glare and Circle of Death.


I have to admit, the low-DC death attack assassin idea is hilarious.

People gotta roll 1s sooner or later. :smallsmile:

[World]

Death domain power? Available from level 1 :D

[Pilo]

False:


Death Domain
Granted Power

You may use a death touch once per day. Your death touch is a supernatural ability that produces a death effect. You must succeed on a melee touch attack against a living creature (using the rules for touch spells). When you touch, roll 1d6 per cleric level you possess. If the total at least equals the creature’s current hit points, it dies (no save).


It is not a save or die effect, it's a just die effect.

[Douglas]

It is not a save or die effect, it's a just die effect.
Not really, it's more of a damage-but-only-if-it-would-kill-you effect. And the amount of damage isn't even that high.

[Occasional Sage]

Why do you want a *LOW* save effect?

[Psyren]

I agree with Mikal. Sleep may not be a direct "SoD", but it is functionally one in practice, particularly if you have a rogue with you.

[SSGoW]

I agree with Mikal. Sleep may not be a direct "SoD", but it is functionally one in practice, particularly if you have a rogue with you.

I see the point here but (and somewhat agree) but there is a difference between save and lose and save or die.

Sleep is more of save or lose. You may not die, you may be just fine, you may be kidnapped and forced to eat aunt jenny's fruit cake till you are rescued but the spell doesn't cause you to die.

Heck I had a Wizard who used sleep to fall asleep at night (he was addicted to it).

Also I just realized how many people would buy a scroll or wand of Sleep in the real world... No more crying babies.... (on buzzfeed there is a naptime commercial XD )

[Psyren]

I use "save-or-lose" to refer more to debuffs. Things like Slow, Stinking Cloud or Bestow Curse. You might ruin someone's day but they are not totally down for the count, and they might pull something you didn't plan for out of their bag of tricks to get around the limitation.

A SoD, however, does not allow for escape (without outside help) once the save is failed. This is most commonly due to actual death, but there are similarly restrictive situations that could apply. As an example, Flesh to Stone and similar are commonly considered SoDs, even though the target doesn't actually "die" in a D&D sense (no rez, no afterlife, no on-death triggers etc.)

[Tulya]

Touch of Juiblex is a 3rd level save-or-die Corruption spell (Book of Vile Darkness) that turns people into green slime over 4 rounds. I'm not sure what works to restore the victim since green slime is just a nasty non-creature mold as of 3e, and the effect is Instantaneous.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A save-or-lose is something like Glitterdust, because being blinded pretty much takes an opponent completely out of the fight but they're still not disabled/helpless. It's widely accepted that save-or-die also includes effects that make opponents helpless and thus eligible for a CDG.

With that in mind, a Wizard casts Color Spray, and his familiar CDG's the helpless opponent on the same initiative. Nobody has a chance to wake them up before it happens, and the save-or-die DC is 12 because it deals the 1 damage minimum with a x2 crit.

[the_archduke]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/crisisofBreath.htm

As usual, psionics does it better. It is multiple saves-or-die, but it comes on line at level 5.

[Eldariel]

A save-or-lose is something like Glitterdust, because being blinded pretty much takes an opponent completely out of the fight but they're still not disabled/helpless. It's widely accepted that save-or-die also includes effects that make opponents helpless and thus eligible for a CDG.

With that in mind, a Wizard casts Color Spray, and his familiar CDG's the helpless opponent on the same initiative. Nobody has a chance to wake them up before it happens, and the save-or-die DC is 12 because it deals the 1 damage minimum with a x2 crit.

This requires for the familiar to already be in position to perform a full-round action on the target though.

[Psyren]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/crisisofBreath.htm

As usual, psionics does it better. It is multiple saves-or-die, but it comes on line at level 5.

No, CoB is save-or-lose. Even if you fail your save, you can still survive/escape (you have to use your standard action to manually breathe, but still have move/swift.) You can even risk death by firing off standard or full-round actions (gambling on the fort save), but could potentially win the encounter regardless.

And if you get right down to it, Stinking Cloud is the same level but is better in almost every way. Nausea takes away your standard just like CoB, but it also takes away your swift, the target has no chance to force out a standard in desperation, it's not a mind-affecting compulsion, it hits multiple targets, can affect non-humanoids etc, ignores SR/PR etc.

I support psionics and all but I wouldn't say it is better in this instance.

[Aeryr]

Touch of Juiblex is level 3 :smallsmile: BoVD

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This requires for the familiar to already be in position to perform a full-round action on the target though.

The Wizard can Color Spray and then move over to the unconscious opponent. His familiar makes a 5-ft. adjust from his shoulder to the opponent, and full-round CDG's.

[Tyndmyr]

The Wizard can Color Spray and then move over to the unconscious opponent. His familiar makes a 5-ft. adjust from his shoulder to the opponent, and full-round CDG's.

Familiars do terrible damage. There is no guarantee that this works. And still, you're spending more resources than the spell.

Save or die means Save. Or. Die. No other options. No other actions. Simple enough?

Not save or lose. Not save or suck(glitterdust, say). Save or DIE. If the spell doesn't make you die, it doesn't count.


Clutch of Orcus is a level 3 save or die, but it has multiple opportunities to save, so it's sort of in the Phantasmal Killer camp of quasi-counting. Only level 3, tho.

[Vladislav]

I go by the following terminology:

save or die - something that makes you actually die if you fail the save. Or at least permanently disabled without the help of restorative magic (Slay Living, Baleful Polymorph, Flesh to Stone)

save or lose - something that makes you temporarily disabled, and vulnerable to CDG (Color Spray, Sleep, Hold Person)

save or suck - something that severely limits your efficiency, but you can still act (Slow, Glitterdust)

[ThiagoMartell]

I use "save-or-lose" to refer more to debuffs. Things like Slow, Stinking Cloud or Bestow Curse. You might ruin someone's day but they are not totally down for the count, and they might pull something you didn't plan for out of their bag of tricks to get around the limitation.

I think those are more save-or-suck than save-or-lose.
SilverClawShift mentions a fight between his party and a monster under the effects of both bestow curse and slow. They had a very, very tough time surviving it.



I go by the following terminology:

save or die - something that makes you actually die if you fail the save. Or at least permanently disabled without the help of restorative magic (Slay Living, Baleful Polymorph, Flesh to Stone)

save or lose - something that makes you temporarily disabled, and vulnerable to CDG (Color Spray, Sleep, Hold Person)

save or suck - something that severely limits your efficiency, but you can still act (Slow, Glitterdust)
I agree completely, except I wouldn't peg Baleful Polymorph as a save or die, I'd consider it a save or lose.

[Psyren]

That's fair, I had forgotten save or suck. Put me in Vladislav's camp then.

But the real question is whether a save-or-lose (like Sleep) is good enough for what the OP is planning.

[Tar Palantir]

I agree completely, except I wouldn't peg Baleful Polymorph as a save or die, I'd consider it a save or lose.

One could make the argument that being turned into a squirrel is not significantly better than being turned into a statue. Neither is technically dead, sure, but it's a hell of a lot worse than the other things in the save or lose category.

[Morph Bark]

Why do you want a *LOW* save effect?

Mostly because I was curious. I'm actually more interested in the earliest SoD possible though, level-wise.


I use "save-or-lose" to refer more to debuffs. Things like Slow, Stinking Cloud or Bestow Curse. You might ruin someone's day but they are not totally down for the count, and they might pull something you didn't plan for out of their bag of tricks to get around the limitation.

A SoD, however, does not allow for escape (without outside help) once the save is failed. This is most commonly due to actual death, but there are similarly restrictive situations that could apply. As an example, Flesh to Stone and similar are commonly considered SoDs, even though the target doesn't actually "die" in a D&D sense (no rez, no afterlife, no on-death triggers etc.)

As Vladislav handily explained (and you agreed with), I distinguish between save-or-die, save-or-lose and save-or-suck. Though I would qualify some of the spells he puts under some of them differently.


My plan is mainly for a custom magic item, made by the rules (excuse me, "guidelines") presented in the SRD, that basically kills a person from a long range. The range of the original spell doesn't really matter all that much as it can be changed with metamagic to make it longer-ranged. Some SoD options require a touch attack though, which I'd like to remove from the resulting item, but I dunno how to do that if I were to base it off a spell that requires a touch attack.

[ThiagoMartell]

One could make the argument that being turned into a squirrel is not significantly better than being turned into a statue. Neither is technically dead, sure, but it's a hell of a lot worse than the other things in the save or lose category.

Well, Vaarsuvius disagrees :smalltongue:

[erikun]

Death Knell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathKnell.htm) is probably the lowest one, as a 2nd-level spell (3rd character level), but is highly situational and probably not what you're looking for. :smalltongue:

[Unusual Muse]

Heck I had a Wizard who used sleep to fall asleep at night (he was addicted to it).

This is awesome and will be stolen! :smallsmile:

[Unusual Muse]

I know it's better for everyone just to pretend this spell doesn't exist, but how about No-Save-Just-Die? Power Word: Pain (RotD) is a 1st-level spell that is a death sentence for low-level creatures.

[Aeryr]

Well I mentioned it earlier and it seems it was ignored


Touch of Juiblex is level 3 :smallsmile: BoVD

[Vladislav]

I agree completely, except I wouldn't peg Baleful Polymorph as a save or die, I'd consider it a save or lose.
I guess BP could be interpreted as SoL if you have no actions* at all you can take in squirrel form, or SoS if you can still take purely mental actions - Psion, caster with quickened spells.
(as usual, melee gets shafted here too)


* chittering doesn't count as an action