[PF] Sooooo...eidolons and AC

[Novawurmson]

Running a PF (with a splash of 3.5 and 3rd party) game, and one of my players is doing a damn good job of optimizing his Eidolon. One thing I'm worried about being able to consistently challenge is his Eidolon's obnoxiously high AC.

If I'm doing this correctly, with full combat buffs, his Eidolon's AC is...

10 (base) - 1 (size) + 4 (Mage Armor, armor bonus) + 4 (Shield, shield bonus) +3 (Dex) + 25 (10 natural armor from being an Eidolon, +6 Improved Natural Armor evolution three times, +2 for Large evolution, +2 for Biped form +5 from Barkskin) +1 (Haste) = 46 AC at level 12 with maximum buffs (32 AC without buffs).

I'm at an awkward point because very little of the things at CR 12 have an attack much above +25 ish; now, they mostly fight things 1-3 CR above their level, but still, I'm in an tough situation:

1. I can have things try to attack him and fail. This should work at most once per NPC per combat, but that's still essentially a free round's worth of action for the party, and most combats don't last more than 4 rounds in this burst-heavy party.

2. I can have things hit other party members instead, attack it through spells that require saves, touch attacks, etc., but that essentially just negates all the resources he poured into his character. I could make NPCs with absurdly high attack rolls, but then the other characters in the party with essentially be auto-hit by them.

I also feel it's important to note that this is his first character ever, and I'd like to reward him for making good decisions than punish him for making something I'm having trouble handling. Sure, I could just say "You don't get your +10 natural armor bonus from leveling," and he'd be down to a more manageable 36/26 AC, but that seems inelegant and petty.

What does the playground think is the best way to handle the situation.

[ThiagoMartell]

Go with one.
This eidolon probably lacks offensive capacity, since it sinked so much resources on defense.

Suggestion: touch attacks. People with guns or casters in general, targetting touch AC, would be targetting AC 12 (+3 Dex, -1 size).

[CTrees]

Touch AC is crap, attack that. Also that NA stacking might be off.

[NightbringerGGZ]

It looks like the Eidolon was built like a tank, but it might still be able to dish out a good amount of damage (considering that extra Natural Attacks are pretty cheap). I'd start by double checking the Eidolon build, as it is very easy to make mistakes when adding up all the numbers.

As CTrees suggested, Eidolons have terrible Touch AC so throwing the occasional gun user at it or having Wizards focus on it is a good way to handle the critter. You could also go after it with some non-damaging spells. Reduce Person affects Eidolons, so you can cut down on its ability to do damage by shrinking it. Eidolons don't have great save bonuses either, so try some Enchantment/Necromancy spells against it.

You could also add some skill checks into combat. If you're on bad terrain, requiring Acrobatics checks to move around safely (say larger patches of oil or ice) you could tie the Eidolon up a bit by having it move very slowly or fall on its face.

A large Eidolon can also have trouble fighting in areas of confined space. If the ceiling is low, then it is conceivable that the Eidolon would have some penalties from having to crouch down or hunch over. If paths are narrow, the Eidolon might not even be able to reach the enemies. You could also put some enemies up on ledges. Most PCs have ways to deal with opponents at range, but Eidolons tend to be built for melee situations.

[Novawurmson]

This thread is making me remember other problems with the whole situation, which I will get into shortly, however...

I have sat down with the player several times to check that everything stacks, and it does. All the natural AC bonuses are untyped or specifically called out as stacking (like Barkskin).

The Eidolon has 4 claws and a bite attack, the claws at +19 the bite at +18 for 1d8+10+1d6 electricity damage (assuming he doesn't Power Attack); an increasing number of creatures have DR it can't penetrate and electricity resistance, but it still puts out a good bit of damage. The other two players (a Rogue and a Swift Hunter Ranger) can put out more damage on a full attack, but it's still intimidating sometimes, especially because it can reliably land about 4 attacks a round.

I do throw some Touch AC attacks at it occasionally, but I feel like it's metagaming to constantly be using touch attacks against him, and I would prefer to use some new and interesting strategies.

Thank you for some specific suggestions Nightbringer. SPOILER ALERT FOR RISE OF THE RUNELORDS Tight spaces are going to be increasingly rare in the campaign, as I'm running a published campaign that takes place increasingly in areas made either by giants or for giants. The stone giants the party was just fighting had little to no spellcaster support except the BBEG. I just realized - in the next book, they're essentially fighting a dungeon full of wizards, so using touch attacks and spells won't be metagaming as much...

The Eidolon also has flying, so difficult terrain usually hurts the Rogue more than the Eidolon. However, they're good ideas and the lateral thinking I'm trying to do.

I'd like to do more with positioning and tactics against it, but knocking it's paltry +3 Dex bonus doesn't do much. What are some other ways enemies could debuff it, weaken it, work around it, or plan around it?

[Barstro]

Reduce Person affects Eidolons, so you can cut down on its ability to do damage by shrinking it.

Reduce Person might affect a Synthesist. The language of the spell clearly states that it does not affect a normal Eidolon (unless cast by a Summoner, per Summoner/Eidolon description)(and probably only that Eidolon's specific Summoner).

Make enemies that destroy the Eidolon.

The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally

Cause the Eidolon to lose evolutions with Devolution (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/devolution).

Put the Summoner to sleep.

Use Control Summoned Creature (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/control-summoned-creature) (Not stated if it works on Eidolons; DM ruling required)

Eidolons are glass cannons. Reinforced glass, but still glass. Go after their weaknesses.

[Barstro]

2. I can have things hit other party members instead, attack it through spells that require saves, touch attacks, etc., but that essentially just negates all the resources he poured into his character.

Depending on the type of player he is, this might be the best option. Eidolons can be complete reformed each level. When he gets to Level X.5, specifically attack his build. (in this case, by not attacking him) Once he levels, he can change evolutions to compensate for your strategy (make eidolon more able to move around to attack the enemies that have been ignoring it). Keep your same strategy until he gets to Level (x+1).5, and switch up again. As long as he likes solving puzzles, this should work out ok.

[grarrrg]

I have sat down with the player several times to check that everything stacks, and it does. All the natural AC bonuses are untyped or specifically called out as stacking (like Barkskin).

Actually, it (usually) doesn't matter what type of bonus the Natural Armor is,
Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses.
So only if it specifically stacks, and/or "enhances existing Natural Armor", it doesn't stack.

So lets review:

10 natural armor from being an Eidolon, +6 Improved Natural Armor evolution three times, +2 for Large evolution, +2 for Biped form +5 from Barkskin

Base-form, Eidolon-Level, Imp. Natural Armor, and Large all stack with each other (or else the Eidolon Rules would be REALLY stupidly worded).
And Barkskin specifically stacks/enhances existing Natural Armor.

His numbers are correct.

[ThiagoMartell]

Reduce Person might affect a Synthesist.
I don't think this is a Synthesist we're talking about.

[Waker]

There is nothing wrong with occasionally targeting specific characters, unless you do it too often.
An Alchemist can make an excellent enemy for a Summoner. The bombs they throw are touch attacks that deal splash damage even if they miss. Some fun discoveries to use are Dispelling Bomb (to strip defenses) and Tanglefoot Bomb (to reduce mobility).
You could also have enemies make use of Aid Another to increase the odds of hitting as the effects are cumulative. So just get a group of little guys swarming over the giant eidolon.

[StreamOfTheSky]

This eidolon probably lacks offensive capacity, since it sinked so much resources on defense.

Have you ever seen an eidolon in use? I have. Getting crazy high AC, lots of attacks for high damage, pounce, flight, and more is all quite easy. OP should just be glad the eidolon isn't using an actual shield (rules prevent it from wearing armor, not using a shield). That'd save a combat round of buffing for the summoner, and ultimately be worth an extra 3 AC (+5 heavy shield is +7 AC).

OP. you need to stick to touch attacks and possibly save-based effects. Its CMD and AC are too tough to pierce otherwise. Optimized eidolons do a very good job of outperforming actual melee classes. There's a reason many consider the Summoner as overpowered as wizards and clerics... They get a pet that's better than a fighter, a 9-level spell list tucked into 6 levels of casting (check out some of the early entries!) and the action economy to use both simultaneously.

[doko239]

Given the stats listed, the Eidolon's reflex save is probably +6. HP (assuming 18 con) will be 9d10 + 36, or 75 hp. Eidolon does have Evasion, but with a low modifier it should be fairly easy to hit.

A caster throwing around some high-DC area spells should be able to smack him around pretty badly, while not seeming to be focusing on the eidolon.

[Novawurmson]

@Barstro - With how badly written the Synthesist is, I'd believe anything. I just realized Devolution would target Large first...he'd hate that so much. He took Resilient Eidolon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/resilient-eidolon), so sleep is not longer a viable option. He's got Greater Evolution Surge, so he's got some adaptability.

@grarrrg - Thanks for the heads-up about natural armor, and for double-checking my math. I don't *think* he's looking to optimize AC any further...he's starting to look into ways to get miss chance XD

@Waker - I like the idea of a dispelling bomb alchemist. That would be pretty brutal, but a reasonable occurrence at the same time.

@StreamOfTheSky - Yeah, at the very least I'd peg the Summoner at tier-2. However, I'm the one who allowed the class, so I want to do my share of work to keep it fun for everyone.

[Novawurmson]

@doko239 - He's rolled really well on HP (all done in front of me) - he's got 94 HP, but Life Link means that he can effective add his health (110) to his Eidolon's, meaning I need to deal 204 damage to really force his Eidolon out. AoE attacks (i.e., breath weapons) have helped make fights tougher before.

Of course, the one of the most recent AoE reflex save attack I used against the party ended with both the Eidolon and the Rogue making their reflex saves; evasion can be pretty useful, especially against 14d6 damage + status effects at level 10 XD

[Barstro]

@Barstro - With how badly written the Synthesist is, I'd believe anything. I just realized Devolution would target Large first...he'd hate that so much. He took Resilient Eidolon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/resilient-eidolon), so sleep is not longer a viable option. He's got Greater Evolution Surge, so he's got some adaptability.

I would hope he took that feat early on, but you never know. :smalltongue:

[Larpus]

Having enemies tailored to take him down will depend on how noteworthy the group (or the Synthesist) is. If he's a famous untouchable tank, chances are someone will, from time to time, try to prove him wrong (with True Strike even, possibly tripping or grappling him in order to really mess him up).

Either way, you can attack him with effects that aren't dependent on saves or the such, for example, illusions, which only allow a save if they're interacted with (so if they enter a room with an already placed Minor Image of a wall, chances are they'll assume that it's a wall and only find it weird after being attacked through the wall).

Another very good and effective option is to attack with "the unknown", having the fight happen in a dark place (darkvision is usually 60ft, just make the enemies stand further than that) with enemies being either ranged or having a big walkspeed.

As the last resort...ignore him and attack the easier targets teammates.

[ThiagoMartell]

Have you ever seen an eidolon in use? I have. Getting crazy high AC, lots of attacks for high damage, pounce, flight, and more is all quite easy. OP should just be glad the eidolon isn't using an actual shield (rules prevent it from wearing armor, not using a shield). That'd save a combat round of buffing for the summoner, and ultimately be worth an extra 3 AC (+5 heavy shield is +7 AC).


I've played Synthesist Summoners, so I know a thing or two about eidolons. I think you simply missed my point - by sinking so much resources on AC, this eidolon doesn't have a superb offense (it depends on charge and multiple natural attacks; while it is an eidolon staple, this is not exactly super strong and can easily be countered, specially since brace weapons are so common in pathfinder).
Usual ways of dealing with chargers work (and there are plenty - flight does make things a bit more difficult, though), touch attacks work, dealing with it's lack of special senses should work as well (those usually cost a lot of evolution points). Greater Evolution Surge helps overcome all of this, but that's forcing the Summoner to spend his resources. It's exactly what mooks are for.

I'll just reiterate - use option 1, OP.

[sol_kanar]

I am playing a Summoner right now, and my two cents are that if enemies can actually identify the Eidolon as a summoned creature, and can locate the caster (hint hint: glowing, matching rune on forehead of Summoner and Eidolon), they might attack the Summoner instead.

Once the Summoner is knocked out or unconscious, the Eidolon vanishes. I would say that the weak point of an Eidolon IS the Summoner :-D Of course, this might not be a viable tactic in EVERY encounter, but I think it could be added to the mix, especially when playing opponents that have reasonable Int and Knowledge(arcana) or Spellcraft.

[doko239]

Touch AC spells with no save that will ruin your summoner's day:

Touch of Idiocy: 2nd level Sorcerer/Wizard, melee touch, no save, 1d6 penalty to Cha, Int and Wis. Shut down the Summoner pretty handily.

Sands of Time: 3rd level Sorcerer/Wizard, melee touch, no save, 1d6 penalty to Str, Con and Dex. Slap the Eidolon with this.

Hellfire Ray: Cleric 6, Wizard/Sorcerer 6 [Evil], ranged touch, 1d6 damage/level, no save, half divine damage (no resistance)

[ThiagoMartell]

Touch AC spells with no save that will ruin anyone's day:
Fixed that for you :smalltongue:

[StreamOfTheSky]

I am playing a Summoner right now, and my two cents are that if enemies can actually identify the Eidolon as a summoned creature, and can locate the caster (hint hint: glowing, matching rune on forehead of Summoner and Eidolon), they might attack the Summoner instead.

Once the Summoner is knocked out or unconscious, the Eidolon vanishes. I would say that the weak point of an Eidolon IS the Summoner :-D Of course, this might not be a viable tactic in EVERY encounter, but I think it could be added to the mix, especially when playing opponents that have reasonable Int and Knowledge(arcana) or Spellcraft.


Actually, he has resilient eidolon feat, so even if he's taken out, the eidolon lasts long enough to still kill the bad guys. That said, summoner is definitely easier to kill (if he can be reached) and all killing the eidolon does is cause the summoner to start popping in celestial dire tigers or whatever...

[Barstro]

Touch of Idiocy: 2nd level Sorcerer/Wizard, melee touch, no save, 1d6 penalty to Cha, Int and Wis. Shut down the Summoner pretty handily.

Sands of Time: 3rd level Sorcerer/Wizard, melee touch, no save, 1d6 penalty to Str, Con and Dex. Slap the Eidolon with this.

I like those. And they are low level. I can easily see a sub-boss cast those through a rod at the beginning of a fight.

[Karoht]

How my DM deals with the Eidolon.

1-Flyers
2-Ranged Attackers
3-Magic to debuff. Slow is pretty crippling if you can pull it off.
4-Ability modifiers such as damage/drain. Eidolons are actually very good targets for that sort of thing.
5-Save or Suck/Die that you don't want to hit the party with.
6-Treat it like a charger. Most Eidolon's will have Pounce. Deal with it as you would any other charger. Want your baddies to live a little longer? Give them better cover to utilize, give them better terrain to work with.
7-Fight the Eidolon with something with an equally absurd AC.
8-Grapple.
9-Other summoners with Eidolons.

There is a spell in Pathfinder that lets you take control of a summoned creature. I'm pretty sure it doesn't work on Eidolons (or so I'm told by someone who plays a summoner) but you can always give that a read.

[doko239]

Actually, here's a Summoner Bane sorcerer build for ya. Only level 11, but should easily overmatch your Summoner if played to his strengths.

Base stats:

Human Void-Touched Sorcerer 11

Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 22

HP 80 (11d6 + 33 + 3 favored class)

AC 13, Touch 13, FF 10 (before buffs)

BAB +5, CMB +4, CMD 16

Fort +5, Reflex +6, Will +7

Feats: Eschew Materials, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration), Toppling Spell, Combat Casting, Improved Initiative, Toughness, Quicken Spell, Augment Summoning

Special Abilities: Void-touched Arcana, Black Motes, Voidwalker, Voidfield, Breaching the Gulf

Equipment: Robes of Arcane Heritage, Circlet of Alluring Charisma +4

Spells Known:

0 Level: Arcane Mark, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Prestidigitation, Spark, Ray of Frost, Mage Hand, Message, Light

1st Level: Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Shield, Grease, Burning Disarm, Vanish, Infernal Healing, Unseen Servant

2nd Level: Touch of Idiocy, Summon Swarm, Glitterdust, Create Pit, Spontaneous Immolation, Suppress Charms and Compulsions, Veil of Ash, Mirror Image

3rd Level: Blink, Aqueous Orb, Stinking Cloud, Fireball, Displacement, Haste, Sands of Time

4th Level: Call Lightning Storm*, Stoneskin, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Enervation, Bestow Curse

5th Level: Teleport, Baleful Polymorph, Overland Flight

* = deals fire damage instead of lightning, damage increased outdoors at night instead of outdoors during storm


Special attacks:
Void-Touched Arcana: Evocation spells have Silence effect on one target for one round

Black Motes: 5 foot column, 30 feet high, 30 foot range, 1d4 + 7 cold damage. Reflex DC 23 negates.

Voidfield: Ice Storm and Deeper Darkness effects for 1 round/4 sorcerer levels, 3/day.

Breaching the Gulf: Teleport one target creature into outer space 1/day. Will DC 25 negates.

Tactics:
Breaching the Gulf will one-shot the Eidolon unless it makes the Will save, as it will instantly be beyond range of the summoner; this will drop it to 25% HP and unsummon it. DC is such that unless the Summoner has been pumping Will save, it will fail on all but a nat 20.

After Eidolon is gone, use Magic Missile and Veil of Ash to lock down the Summoner himself, using the Void-Touched Arcana ability to continually silence him.

Vs a crowd, use Black Tentacles, or Create Pit + Aqueous Orb to sweep everyone up.

Augment Summoning + Summon Swarm of Rats = Fun Times vs low Fort Saves

If you get caught in melee, a quickened Vanish plus Dimension Door will get you out of harm's way.

Due to Voidwalker, you're immune to your own Stinking Cloud effect.

Sands of Time and Touch of Idiocy, as noted before, will wreck people's day.

If pressed, Voidfield followed by Teleport will get you to safety.


Edit: Will save on Breaching the Gulf was too high. I added the +3 CL from Breaching the Gulf to effective sorc level when calculating the save. Should "only" be DC 23. However, this can still be boosted with +Cha equipment or buffs.

Edit again: added a Headband of Alluring Charisma to equipment list; DC on Breaching the Gulf goes back up to 25.

[Arbane]

Breaching the Gulf: Teleport one target creature into outer space 1/day. Will DC 25 negates.


:smalleek:

:smalleek:

:smalleek:

...I don't see 'void-touched' on the SRD. Where's that from? (Because that looks unusually overpowered, even for a save-ro-die.)

[doko239]

:smalleek:

:smalleek:

:smalleek:

...I don't see 'void-touched' on the SRD. Where's that from? (Because that looks unusually overpowered, even for a save-ro-die.)

It's a Wildblooded bloodline from Ultimate Magic. Base bloodline is Starsoul from APG. The target gets to take full-round actions making will saves to come back, but with a DC that high it's unlikely. Each round they remain in space, they take 6d6 cold damage and start suffocating.

[Novawurmson]

@doko239 - That's BRUTAL. I LOVE it. Save or Die? Meh, that's boring. Teleport your Eidolon into the void of space? Amazing.

I might work him around a bit, but that's an awesome idea. Will I use it every fight? Nah, but for one climatic fight with a BBEG or one of his generals? Aw, heck yes.

@Karoht - Several of those look interesting, and a few I've used before (flight, grapple). It's a Bipedal eidolon, so it can't get pounce, thankfully.

[doko239]

Glad to be of service! /ironic bow

Some of the numbers were a little off, I've edited the build to reflect that.

Bear in mind that against an Eidolon, Breaching the Gulf will be a Save or Die, due to Life Link. Against anyone else, it's a slow death with possibility of return, though I pity the Fighter that faces this guy :smallbiggrin:

[Novawurmson]

Well, it's also only one/day. My favorite part is that it takes advantage of an inherent weakness of the Eidolon (can't be far from its master) that usually doesn't come into play.