[PF] Eldritch Knight and the outsider

[marcielle]

Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.

Tieflings, Aasimar, etc all have the above trait. So am I to take it that they need not have a single level of fighter( the obvious intended route) to get into Eldritch Knight?

And say you were a Tiefling Wizard, is there any reason NOT to take this PrC aside from the 1 lost caster level? D10 HD, boost to Fort, full BAB. I know you have to pay for your own spells but after level 5 the cost is pretty much negligible anyway, so long as you are cherrypicking instead of trying to memorize a library.

Not going to be doing much up and close fighting but I somehow get the feeling I might need the extra survivability.

[Engine]

Tieflings, Aasimar, etc all have the above trait. So am I to take it that they need not have a single level of fighter( the obvious intended route) to get into Eldritch Knight?

And say you were a Tiefling Wizard, is there any reason NOT to take this PrC aside from the 1 lost caster level? D10 HD, boost to Fort, full BAB. I know you have to pay for your own spells but after level 5 the cost is pretty much negligible anyway, so long as you are cherrypicking instead of trying to memorize a library.

Not going to be doing much up and close fighting but I somehow get the feeling I might need the extra survivability.

I'm afraid you can't do that. You shouldn't read the monster entry, you should read the entry about Monsters as PCs. A PC Aasimar or Tiefling doesn't have any proficiency.


Aasimar Characters

Aasimars have the following racial traits:
Ability Adjustments: +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom. Aasimars are insightful, confident, and personable.
Senses: darkvision (60 feet.)
Racial Skill Bonuses: +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Perception checks.
Spell-Like Abilities: daylight 1/day (caster level equals the aasimar's class level).
Resistance(s): acid, cold, electricity resistance 5.
Languages: Aasimars begin play speaking Common and Celestial. Aasimars with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following bonus languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, and Sylvan.

[Fenryr]

Personally I don't agree with Engine. If you're an Aasimar o a Tiefling, you're an outsider. Being an outsider, you have traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Outsider). In the PC entry, it never mentions they lose proficiencies.

[StreamOfTheSky]

They are Native Outsiders, so they by RAW possess all of the traits that come with their type and subtype (just as humanoids do....they just don't really have anything noteworthy).


Native Subtype
This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.


Outsider
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

An outsider has the following features.

•d10 Hit Dice.
•Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
•Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
•Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

•Darkvision 60 feet.
•Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
•Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
•Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
•Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.


As native outsiders w/ no racial hit dice, all of the bolded parts RAW apply to them.

EDIT: And if you insist that you only go by whati t says in the "PC" section for playable monster races and absolutely do not look at the statblock, type, etc.... What is a PC tiefling's movement speed? I...can't seem to find it under the PC section! Does this mean PC tieflings cannot move?!

Tiefling Characters
Tieflings are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial HD. They have the following racial traits.

+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma: Tieflings are quick in body and mind, but are inherently strange.

Darkvision: Tieflings see in the dark up to 60 feet.

Skilled: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Stealth checks.

Spell-Like Ability: Tieflings can use darkness once per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability equals the tiefling's class level.

Fiendish Resistance: Tieflings have cold resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, and fire resistance 5.

Fiendish Sorcery: See above.

Languages Tieflings begin play speaking Common and either Abyssal or Infernal. Tieflings with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, and Orc.

[Engine]

@StreamOfTheSky

You should calm down a bit: I'm not "insisting". I posted once.

By the way, in the 3.5 entry for playable races the Tiefling or the Aasimar had a land speed and I was probably stuck with that description even if I quoted the Pathfinder entry. By RAW, anyway, it seems you're right, nothing says that a Tiefling loses her proficiencies.

[Benly]

I'm going to guess this is in the "Pathfinder devs don't know about it and will say it's not how it works if you ask but won't care enough to make an actual errata or FAQ about it" pile, given that this particular question has been raised since 3.5.

[grarrrg]

I'm going to guess this is in the "Pathfinder devs don't know about it and will say it's not how it works if you ask but won't care enough to make an actual errata or FAQ about it" pile, given that this particular question has been raised since 3.5.

^ Basically this ^
RAW is sticky, RAI is intended to be "No Prof. gained"

Looking at the 'Humanoid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-humanoid)' entry of creature types:

Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class.

Replace "humanoid" with "whatever" and you're set.


And if you want to get 'nit picky' about how it calls out "features" are exchanged but not "traits", then lets look at the Traits, and how silly they can be on a 'normal' race.

Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class.
Hmmm... my Wizard has crummy Weapon Profs... I choose "OR" all simple weapons.


Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class.
Not much to do here, PC's aren't 'described as wearing armor', so we're better off with "Or by character class".


If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types.
Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor.
Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
The first 2 sentences I left in to prove my point, they specifically call out a PC-vs-Monster type distinction, BUT the 3rd sentence does NOT have that disclaimer.
Also, it says nothing about Tower Shields being separate from Shields.
So my Human Magus, which has Light Armor Prof., has ALL SHIELD PROF., because he is proficient with "any form of armor".
Oh, and for that matter, EVERY class with ANY ARMOR EVER now has Tower Shield Prof.


It is fairly obvious that 'Humanoid PC's' do NOT benefit from "Standard Humanoid Traits", so it should follow that 'Outsider PC's do NOT benefit from "Standard Outsider Traits".

[eggs]

And say you were a Tiefling Wizard, is there any reason NOT to take this PrC aside from the 1 lost caster level?
Is there a reason NOT to stick a fork in your leg, beside the pain and injury?

[NeoSeraphi]

I'm going to guess this is in the "Pathfinder devs don't know about it and will say it's not how it works if you ask but won't care enough to make an actual errata or FAQ about it" pile, given that this particular question has been raised since 3.5.

Nope. Pathfinder devs know about it, and have come out against it (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/clarificationRequestDoAasimarsTieflingHaveProficie ncyInAllBasicMartialWeapons&page=1#11). The official errata here is that if a creature does not possess racial HD, it does not gain type proficiencies.

[jaybird]

Is there a reason NOT to stick a fork in your leg, beside the pain and injury?

One lost caster level for a Wizard still puts them on par with Sorcerers - hardly weak, by any means.

[NeoSeraphi]

One lost caster level for a Wizard still puts them on par with Sorcerers - hardly weak, by any means.

Yes, but PF wizard have actual class features. Such as the powerful dominate ability of the 8th level Controller arcane school wizard, which lets you use dominate monster as a spell-like ability, except it lasts for a number of rounds per day equal to your class level (not caster level), you can't use it on creatures with a higher HD than you, and they receive a Will save each round to negate (but the Will save scales with your class level, making it strictly better than hold person).

Yes, there's a lot of restrictions, but the point is that you get a 9th level spell at 8th level!

Eldritch knight imposes more than a loss of caster level, it removes your wizard class feature progressions and takes away your bonus feats in exchange for higher HD, weaker saves (what's with that Fort save progression anyway? So bizarre) and full BAB. You also get a couple of combat feats and Spell Critical.

If you are an evoker, you stay wizard for the boost to your Intensify Spells feature and to get access to that Elemental Wall ability. If you're a Transmuter, you stay wizard to boost your free enhancement bonus to one of your ability scores, as well as your free barkskin ability.

Plenty of reasons to stay in wizard now.

[marcielle]

Thanks NeoS. I think my DM prefers RAI so that's that. And I forgot that the Wizard has class features now. Was still thinking of the 3.5 wizard.

[Callous]

I always found it fair that thieflings, outsiders and genasi gained martial weapon proficiency.. they were +1 LA after all.

In pathfinder though i must admit i agree with not giving them this boost : )

[Benly]

Nope. Pathfinder devs know about it, and have come out against it (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/clarificationRequestDoAasimarsTieflingHaveProficie ncyInAllBasicMartialWeapons&page=1#11). The official errata here is that if a creature does not possess racial HD, it does not gain type proficiencies.

So... when asked, they replied that it's not how it worked, but didn't care enough to issue an errata or FAQ about it, is what you're saying. I think I was pretty close all told. :smalltongue:

[eggs]

One lost caster level for a Wizard still puts them on par with Sorcerers - hardly weak, by any means.
Not being weak is different than not having a cost.

Even if Tiefling Wizard 5 qualifies for Eldritch Knight, it's not a no-brainer. There are meaningful costs (the opportunity costs of caster level, unique class features an casting-oriented abilities) which the benefits don't clearly outweigh (unless the wizard plans on running into the front line and rolling lots of attack rolls anyway).

Because the outsider+EK combination isn't free and isn't gamebreaking, I see no reason to search out banning grounds on the basis of balance. Searching the errata, I don't see an official revision. So it sounds like it comes down to the weight placed on designer intent.

[Tyndmyr]

Tieflings, Aasimar, etc all have the above trait. So am I to take it that they need not have a single level of fighter( the obvious intended route) to get into Eldritch Knight?

And say you were a Tiefling Wizard, is there any reason NOT to take this PrC aside from the 1 lost caster level? D10 HD, boost to Fort, full BAB. I know you have to pay for your own spells but after level 5 the cost is pretty much negligible anyway, so long as you are cherrypicking instead of trying to memorize a library.

Not going to be doing much up and close fighting but I somehow get the feeling I might need the extra survivability.

Well, because Abjurant Champion is so much better?

[jaybird]

Well, because Abjurant Champion is so much better?

Abjurant Champion's not Pathfinder, unfortunately.