TippyVerse CAP (Citizen Advancement Program)

[Andorax]

Ok, so congratulations...you're a citizen of the TippyVerse. Magic is absolutely rampant in the streets, and infuses your daily life. Your parents have raised you right, and you're just graduating from whatever form of public education prepares you for all the rights and privlidges of a first level character. Now what?


Logically, this is the time where the Citizen Advancement Program kicks into gear and prepares you, in a single semi-rigerous day, for the challenges ahead. As with many things in the TippyVerse, price is nearly no object, automatically resetting spell traps are a must, and if it can be done faster and easier, it's probably better.




So let's begin, shall we? Your path to glory begins with the CAP doorway, one which checks to be sure you're healthy and able (Deathwatch, only opens if you ping "alive and well"). Depending on the prevailing rules of your megacity, certain other requirements (Detect Chaos, Detect Evil, even Detect Thoughts) might be required to determine if you're eligible, or even willingly undertaking, this rapid-track advancement.

So you open the door, and are confronted with a 30' corridor, with another door at the far end. A triggered Magic Mouth informs you that you should now move forward through the corridor, no matter what happens, and open the door at the far end. The entrance door, of course, shuts behind you (one way door).

The first 10' is a benign magic trap, triggering a Resist Energy (Acid) at CL 7. Acid damage up to 20 points is now prevented from harming you or your possessions.

The second 10' is a deadly(?) Melf's Acid Arrow trap (DMG p74) at CR 8. Two acid arrows come flying out to fry you...thankfully, dealing no actual damage, even on a crit. For the next 7 rounds, they sizzle away trying to do you harm, to no avail. This trap is set to reset only when then corridor is empty.

Congratulations, you've successfully "encountered" a CR8 encounter. Traumatized, even frightened, but unharmed, you press forward.

The last 10' is a third trap, once again benign. A Modify Memory goes off, removing even the debilitating fear of having had acid arrows shot at you, even if it didn't do you any harm. If need be, this trap will go off repeatedly every round until you let go of the painful memories of being arrowed.

The exit door (once again, one way) is also set with a detect thoughts spell, and will only open if it can determine that you are, in fact, freed of the debilitating fear of having been shot by acid arrows.


The XP is obtained, the memories are safely wiped away...you've already come out the other end a 3rd level character. Ready to circle around and go back in, oblivious to the non-threatening harm that will once again befall you.

Tough love? Perhaps. But circling round through the CAP tunnel repeatedly won't quit giving you XP until you hit 15th level, and the only thing you'll take away from the experience (well, besides Experience Points) is the realization that the TippyVerse has once again made your life better and prepared you properly for your future career.

Counselors and side-lobbies could easily be created to drop in and visit, check on (and test) your rapid progress at gaining in skill, and allow you to meet certain non-skill/non-feat based pre-requisites if a more advanced (prestige class) degree is desired. Everything from a meeting room where aspiring Elemental Savants can be introduced to summoned elementals kept on their best behavior, to a guidebook and crystal ball marked with the exact location of the "hidden jungle temples of the couatls" to properly indoctrinate Rainbow Servants.


More advanced CAP tunnels could, of course, be created...but I would presume that the powers that be in the TippyVerse would want to have a bit tighter control over "free" citizen advancement beyond 15th.

[Chambers]

Nice. I've always liked the Tippyverse as an extrapolation of the consequences of magic in D&D and this is a clever addition to that.

[Little Brother]

This is brilliant. I hadn't thought of anything like this. Brilliant. Fantastic.

A win at life is had in the OP.

[Gavinfoxx]

I dunno. I always thought of a... slightly different approach to advancing citizens in a tippyverse or other similar post scarcity magically fueled society.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z9NJIs751Af3i0IEIJwCkIp9H9YFiZYZ7u-wmYVaheI/edit

[hushblade]

Meh, it feels VERY metagamey. After all, a normal adventurer experiences lots of different things, learning to use his skills in different ways. Encountering the same trap ad infinitum shouldn't teach you anything past you second encounter with it.

[Gavinfoxx]

That's why I like my method... it's a bit more believable...

[Eldan]

Meh, it feels VERY metagamey. After all, a normal adventurer experiences lots of different things, learning to use his skills in different ways. Encountering the same trap ad infinitum shouldn't teach you anything past you second encounter with it.

That is, however, pretty much the point of the Tippyverse. Taking the D&D rules to silly conclusions and their influence on society.

[VGLordR2]

That is, however, pretty much the point of the Tippyverse. Taking the D&D rules to silly conclusions and their influence on society.

It's not really silly to assume that society wouldn't use magic to advance. It makes sense.

[Eldan]

That isn't, no. But there are a few ideas that go quite a bit about the probable spirit of the rules. E.g. using non-dangerous traps to essentially make a race of supermen.

[Tulya]

Wouldn't the challenge rating be adjusted downwards in accordance with the guidelines for using CR? At that point, the character is facing nil risk, and is expected to employ 0% of their daily resources to face each encounter.

[Menteith]

Wouldn't the challenge rating be adjusted downwards in accordance with the guidelines for using CR? At that point, the character is facing nil risk, and is expected to employ 0% of their daily resources to face each encounter.

Yup. Different experience is awarded based on the challenge - Hobgoblins firing from cover at midnight are more dangerous than fighting them in the open during daylight. The same principle applies in reverse. There is no risk here. It is literally impossible for a character to be threatened. No experience should be rewarded, for the same reason you don't gain experience for seeing a dire lion at a zoo.

[Man on Fire]

{{scrubbed}}

[Psyren]

Meh, it feels VERY metagamey. After all, a normal adventurer experiences lots of different things, learning to use his skills in different ways. Encountering the same trap ad infinitum shouldn't teach you anything past you second encounter with it.

Well technically, if your memory is getting wiped each time, you will actually be learning each time you see it.

But the "no challenge = no exp" argument is unfortunately pretty relevant here. There is no chance of failure, similar to a great wyrm dragon taking on a single CR1 goblin.

[Menteith]

I honestly don't get the hate toward Tippyverse. It's a really interesting setting that allows for high level play without campaign breaking (as many of the higher powered options are intrinsic to the setting). My experiences with Tippyverse/TV derivatives have always been positive. When people suggest really, really absurd things like this (which don't even work by RAW), I feel as though it's bashing TV for things like resetting traps or a Wish based economy, things that actually make sense and are internally consistent. High power, sure, and I wouldn't allow it in most games that I run, but there's nothing terrible weird about them.

What Andorax is describing doesn't work. It's very clearly spelled out by DMG p39, Modifying XP Awards and Encounter Levels, that circumstances alter experience awards. A half as difficult encounter awards half expected experience. This encounter has null difficulty, and thus awards 0 experience. It's not even a debatable thing....

[Craft (Cheese)]

"Hello, and, again, welcome to the Emperor Tippy Community Enrichment Center. Please proceed forward through the test chamber to exit through the door on the other side. If you find yourself subjected to extreme danger of potential bodily harm, or even death, feel free to panic: Your panic is a deliberately designed part of the test."

"Hello, and congratulations for completing this portion of the Emperor Tippy Community Enrichment Process. The door will open when you stop having feelings of extreme distress due to being trapped, deceived, and placed in extreme bodily danger. To assist in the removal of these feelings, Smooth Jazz will be deployed in 3, 2, 1..."

"Remember, as a low-level character, you are worse than useless. <Metropolis Name Here> requires you to be in the best shape possible so you can do your part in the defense of the city. Continue testing under any circumstances until you have completed the program: Emperor Tippy Community Enrichment Center facilities are designed so that advancement can always continue, even in a dire emergency."

[Eldan]

Yeah. Just throw 100 commoners into a death dungeon. Some of them will level up, the rest can be thrown into the resurrection traps.

[Psyren]

Yeah. Just throw 100 commoners into a death dungeon. Some of them will level up, the rest can be thrown into the resurrection traps.

That's a good way to run out of commoners. If it's dangerous enough to grant exp, some of them will die. Eventually, some of the ones raised (if they even consent to being raised every time) will run out of Con.

[Eldan]

Hm. True. Reincarnation, then.

[Suddo]

So the forum at this earlier but the one problem is the fact that you can only bank experience up to level 1.99999... before you have to take a level thus you will have to seek council and take a level more often.

To address the arguments of there is no challenge so no XP. I think that we could fix this by having a commoner fight something and just make sure the environment was such that he couldn't die. The commoner death arena with rez trap would be cool too.

Also great Portal parody.

[Psyren]

Hm. True. Reincarnation, then.

You actually lose Con there too, and can potentially lose even more than before if you reincarnate as something with a Con penalty (e.g. an elf.) Repeatedly coming back as a troglodyte might help though.

EDIT: And I too enjoyed the Portal parody

[Menteith]

To address the arguments of there is no challenge so no XP. I think that we could fix this by having a commoner fight something and just make sure the environment was such that he couldn't die. The commoner death arena with rez trap would be cool too.


DMG p39
"Sometimes, the circumstances give the character's opponents a distinct advantage. Other times, the PCs have an advantage. Adjust the XP award and the EL depending on how greatly circumstances change the encounter's difficultly."

Circumstance, XP Award Adjustment
Half as difficult, XP x 1/2

A fight with zero risks is not an appropriate challenge. If the environment is such that a character cannot die, then he shouldn't be gaining experience. Experience is awarded on the assumption that a fight will take up some amount of a party's/individual's resources. What you're describing does not take up any amount of resources under any circumstance. This is on par with awarding experience to characters because they were in the same room as a caged animal for a few minutes.

[Suddo]

Yes but I think you could create a fight where the PC doesn't have 100% chance to succeed say "Getting through the locked door that the goblin has the key for" but still remove the chance he'll die by auto-killing the goblin when the PC is about to die. The trick is to do so with resetting traps.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Yes but I think you could create a fight where the PC doesn't have 100% chance to succeed say "Getting through the locked door that the goblin has the key for" but still remove the chance he'll die by auto-killing the goblin when the PC is about to die. The trick is to do so with resetting traps.

Won't work either. The entire purpose of that rule is to give the DM explicit authority to use Rule 0 to block any attempts at risk-free XP grinding, which is exactly what the CAP is.

[Menteith]

Yes but I think you could create a fight where the PC doesn't have 100% chance to succeed say "Getting through the locked door that the goblin has the key for" but still remove the chance he'll die by auto-killing the goblin when the PC is about to die. The trick is to do so with resetting traps.

So there's still no risk at all. If the individual just sits there, eventually the environment will kill the enemy before he faces harm. If a character can succeed by taking no actions, and it is impossible for them to take any meaningful harm, then it's not a challenge. What you're describing is a highly realistic movie with great special effects, not an adventure.

EDIT

I wouldn't even say this falls into rule 0 territory. The rules state that decreasing the risk of a challenge reduces the experience gain by an equal amount. This is clearly shown in the DMG sections I've discussed previously. In a situation with half the risk, the experience gain is half normal. In a situation with double the risk, experience gain is doubled. This situation has no risk at all. What do you think the reasonable amount of experience gained should be?

[demigodus]

DMG p39
"Sometimes, the circumstances give the character's opponents a distinct advantage. Other times, the PCs have an advantage. Adjust the XP award and the EL depending on how greatly circumstances change the encounter's difficultly."

Circumstance, XP Award Adjustment
Half as difficult, XP x 1/2

A fight with zero risks is not an appropriate challenge. If the environment is such that a character cannot die, then he shouldn't be gaining experience. Experience is awarded on the assumption that a fight will take up some amount of a party's/individual's resources. What you're describing does not take up any amount of resources under any circumstance. This is on par with awarding experience to characters because they were in the same room as a caged animal for a few minutes.

Do not let the commoner know about the in-built safeties. Given that their goal is to then succeed without the safeties going off, it is an equivalent challenge to fighting without the safeties.

It is just, if they do fail, there is no consequences, and a quick brain wiping later, they can be thrown back in to try again. Or possibly a day's rest later.

Yes, this can be rule 0'd to not work, but I would argue this would work by RAI. Since, as far as the commoner is concerned, there is literally no difference between this and the situation without safeties. At least until they fail. Then they learn of a difference, but then they get no xp anyways. Not getting experience for a challenge because of a potential event that didn't happen, and you were not aware of, would make no sense.


I wouldn't even say this falls into rule 0 territory. The rules state that decreasing the risk of a challenge reduces the experience gain by an equal amount. This is clearly shown in the DMG sections I've discussed previously. In a situation with half the risk, the experience gain is half normal. In a situation with double the risk, experience gain is doubled. This situation has no risk at all. What do you think the reasonable amount of experience gained should be?

I don't have the DMG in front of me right now, but the part you quoted says to adjust the XP according to how the difficulty of the encounter changes.

Winning the situation that Suddo described is EXACTLY as difficult as winning the situation without the safety of the trap, so long as you consider the goblin being killed by the trap to be a failure. Since any set of actions that cause victory in one, cause victory in the other, and any set of actions that cause defeat in one cause defeat in the other (assuming the same rolls all around). The difficulty is the same. The resources needed to be used to win are the same.

Just the consequences for failure are lessened. Now the DMG might have some section relating to how xp should also scale with the consequences of failure (although what the character considers to be the consequences of failure would make a lot more sense), and if so you would be correct that this trick wouldn't work. However, that isn't what you quoted.

[Little Brother]

"Hello, and congratulations for completing this portion of the Emperor Tippy Community Enrichment Process. The door will open when you stop having feelings of extreme distress due to being trapped, deceived, and placed in extreme bodily danger. To assist in the removal of these feelings, Smooth Jazz will be deployed in 3, 2, 1..."That's TERRIBLE! I mean, I knew there was potential for horrific acts and immense evil, but SMOOTH JAZZ? I thought they were at least civilized? :smalleek:

:smalltongue:

[Demonic_Spoon]

Meh, I prefer elanification followed by a PoA trap that turns them into a Thoon Elder Brain/White Ethergaunt for a instant 25-27 to int. Or have them take that feat which turns you into a outsider and a Planetar/Pleasure Devil/Word Archons would also be nice. Sarrukhs for the monstrous humanoids.

Add some wish traps to add inherent bonuses and everyone can have int in the 30's! Voidminding them for further int is also a option. Having everyone breed with dragons/celestials so that their children can get the stat boosts from the templates would also be nice(assuming that you don't want the commoner masses to level up).

Traps of PoA and stoneshape to turn their shapes back to humanish are a bonus.

[Zonasiy]

DMG p39
"Sometimes, the circumstances give the character's opponents a distinct advantage. Other times, the PCs have an advantage. Adjust the XP award and the EL depending on how greatly circumstances change the encounter's difficultly."

Circumstance, XP Award Adjustment
Half as difficult, XP x 1/2

A fight with zero risks is not an appropriate challenge. If the environment is such that a character cannot die, then he shouldn't be gaining experience. Experience is awarded on the assumption that a fight will take up some amount of a party's/individual's resources. What you're describing does not take up any amount of resources under any circumstance. This is on par with awarding experience to characters because they were in the same room as a caged animal for a few minutes.

I agree, but what if we look at this another way?

Say there's no resetting trap of acid resistance in the corridor, but in the testing building there's a 'vending machine' of acid resistance potions or something. The commoners are are warned of the dangers of the hallway, and using acid resistance potions is suggested.

Now we have a situation where there is danger, and resources are used. I would think that this satisfies the conditions required for xp. Depending on the government here, they would probably either ressurect the ones that fail, or leave them as examples to others.

[Craft (Cheese)]

It's taking up resources, sure, but not the commoner's resources. If a commoner comes face to face with a Red Dragon, but then a level 20 Wizard immediately jumps in and kills the dragon with a single spell, the commoner shouldn't get XP for that.

[Zonasiy]

It's taking up resources, sure, but not the commoner's resources. If a commoner comes face to face with a Red Dragon, but then a level 20 Wizard immediately jumps in and kills the dragon with a single spell, the commoner shouldn't get XP for that.

It is using the commoner's resources though. Just because the commoner got 20 acid resistance potions from a trap an hour ago, doesn't make those 20 acid resistance potions not the commoner's resources. Wizards can get infinite money from a variety of tricks. Does that mean that they use no resources when they use a scroll to cast a spell?

[Morph Bark]

Well technically, if your memory is getting wiped each time, you will actually be learning each time you see it.

What would he be learning anyway? "HOLY CRABS I JUST GOT COVERED IN ACID WHAT THE EMPRAH IS GOIN' ONNN"?

Also, if you were to take a course at a school and by the end forgot everything, then took it again, forgot it again, etc. By the end you wouldn't be any smarter than way at the beginning, so the whole "learning" point is moot if you forget everything.

Now if the Modify Memory trap made it so they felt like the entire experience was pleasant... that's a different thing entirely. But then you probably get a society of people who enjoy getting acid resistance and then take acid baths.

[Scots Dragon]

Y'know, that would be a rather unique way of promoting hygiene. The acid could kill most dirt and parasites and bacteria quite effectively.

[Morph Bark]

We might as well make Tippyverse baths into acidic lava with the steps leading up to it being traps of Acid Immunity and Fire Immunity. And possibly some trap that bestows the ability to breathe them or take away the need to breathe.

Bark's Bathing Business would be such a success.

[Tyndmyr]

The XP is obtained, the memories are safely wiped away...you've already come out the other end a 3rd level character. Ready to circle around and go back in, oblivious to the non-threatening harm that will once again befall you.

Department of pedantry here. You'll be 1 xp short of 3rd level.

If risk is necessary, anything that deals non-lethal damage can be used, yes? The xp gain may be slower....but meh. Not a big deal.

[Andorax]

First of all, many DMs (myself included) would likely Rule 0 most of the founding principles of the Tippyverse into nonexistance. Invoking rule 0 here is basically ignoring the initial premise, which is that the Tippyverse is present and real.

That said,

Menteith, there are *guidelines* for reducing XP awards based on the DM's judgement of the threat level. As soon as you start talking about guidelines and DM's judgement, you're already getting outside of the TippyVerse's "logical extrapolation of all possible shortcut consequences". Reduce it by half, and it takes twice as long...but unless you can find a hard rule stating that a situation where the PCs are at NO risk will always award NO XP, you're just adding milage to the circuit.


The original version of this (producing lower-level results) actually used the 1st level Burning Hands trap, that would cause actual damage, even drop the recipient down to 0 hps (remember, the door won't let you in unless you have at least 4 hps), followed by a Lesser Vigor trap and the Modify Memory exit door. I was aiming for something with greater efficiency 1-15 instead of having to take a two-step approach to get there, and because the absurdity of it all (from a gamer's point of view) is part of the humor inherent in looking at Tippy solutions.

As for actually learning something relevant to your leveling, I'll direct you to your copy of On the Origin of the PCs, where Hailey addresses V on the subject of the virtues of the adventuring life. That, actually, was also part of the inspiration.

Anyways, I'm glad that by and large you're enjoying the idea. Remember folks, if you ever decide to run a TippyVerse campaign, start the PCs off at minimum age and 15th level ;)


Oh and...yes, indeed...1 XP shy of 3rd. Get your counseling before looping around again.

[Suddo]

I'd like to repeat my scenario so everyone is a little more clear:
You give a commoner a couple of buffs and have him fight a goblin for a key, if the commoner should fall unconscious then everything else in the room dies the door opens and he has to repeat the test. NOTE: This is not to say that he get XP if he fails it just means he has a 0% chance of dying. So he won't always get XP but he has a safe environment to grind XP in.

[Tyndmyr]

Menteith, there are *guidelines* for reducing XP awards based on the DM's judgement of the threat level. As soon as you start talking about guidelines and DM's judgement, you're already getting outside of the TippyVerse's "logical extrapolation of all possible shortcut consequences". Reduce it by half, and it takes twice as long...but unless you can find a hard rule stating that a situation where the PCs are at NO risk will always award NO XP, you're just adding milage to the circuit.

I suppose it could be argued that it is "challenge rating", and thus, some level of challenge must be present.

However, that doesn't mean the challenge need be terribly hard. Add on a minor puzzle or the like if that's a concern.

[Morph Bark]

How many level 1 characters are needed to make the maximum CR needed to provide the maximum XP gain for a level 1 character? In that case you could just put that many characters in a room together and tell them "the last one standing wins, if you kill anyone you will be instantly disintegrated".

Fully nonlethal, still yielding high amounts of XP for everyone involved.

[Menteith]

"An encounter that is so easy that it uses up none or almost none of the PCs' resources shouldn't result in any XP award at all..."

DMG p39

I'm not using Rule 0. I'm not extrapolating. Please read the page that I keep posting. It very clearly states that you don't gain experience. That's why I keep saying it's not really a debatable thing.

For people arguing that ignorance somehow increases the challenge, I have a question. Would an especially scary painting in the dark be a challenge? I thought it was a monster, so I attacked and defeated it. Sure, it was impossible for the painting to ever hurt me, but I thought it could. Is that an appropriate encounter?

EDIT
A "Danger Room" is actually a really interesting idea, and I'm trying not to be really negative about this, so call me out if I start getting grouchy. I just don't see how this could work in its current state, nor how to adapt it should that it does work.

[Tyndmyr]

"An encounter that is so easy that it uses up none or almost none of the PCs' resources shouldn't result in any XP award at all..."

DMG p39

I'm not using Rule 0. I'm not extrapolating. Please read the page that I keep posting. It very clearly states that you don't gain experience. That's why I keep saying it's not really a debatable thing.

For people arguing that ignorance somehow increases the challenge, I have a question. Would an especially scary painting in the dark be a challenge? I thought it was a monster, so I attacked and defeated it. Sure, it was impossible for the painting to ever hurt me, but I thought it could. Is that an appropriate encounter?

EDIT
A "Danger Room" is actually a really interesting idea, and I'm trying not to be really negative about this, so call me out if I start getting grouchy. I just don't see how this could work in its current state, nor how to adapt it should that it does work.

Easy solution: have it take resources, but then devise a trap to replenish those resources.

I'm going to point to Mnemonic enhancer as a way to grant spell slots, and hp are easy.

Additionally, this sounds like the most awesome wizard training school ever.

[Suddo]

"An encounter that is so easy that it uses up none or almost none of the PCs' resources shouldn't result in any XP award at all..."
For people arguing that ignorance somehow increases the challenge, I have a question.

I'm actually arguing that the challenge should exist but that it should be able to be lethal. The individual still has to succeed but say has 2 contingencies on him, one heals him and the other that kills everything in the room. Give him 100% Fortification and maybe DR 1 or 2 and then let him fight a goblin. If for some reason he stalls, and would lose his buffs, there is a trap that will kill the goblin in the room and the encounter will reward 0xp.

Also if an ubercharger 1 hit kills a dragon from a surprise round does it not award any XP? Or if say the rogue successfully disarms the trap does it not reward XP? Neither consumed any form of resources yet most would consider those to reward XP.

[Menteith]

I'm actually arguing that the challenge should exist but that it should be able to be lethal. The individual still has to succeed but say has 2 contingencies on him, one heals him and the other that kills everything in the room. Give him 100% Fortification and maybe DR 1 or 2 and then let him fight a goblin. If for some reason he stalls, and would lose his buffs, there is a trap that will kill the goblin in the room and the encounter will reward 0xp.

"Bad rolls or poor choices on the PCs' part should not modify ELs or XP awards.....because the players were unlucky or careless, they don't get more experience."

DMG, guess which page?

It is impossible for this person to die based on what you're telling me. The environment you are describing is so favorable toward him that it is impossible for him to be defeated (barring sitting in the corner picking his nose for several weeks which the Contingencies fall off, but see above quote). When it is impossible for a character to lose an encounter because of a favorable environment, it is "so easy that it uses up none or almost none of the PCs' resources" and thus doesn't award an experience.


Also if an ubercharger 1 hit kills a dragon from a surprise round does it not award any XP? Or if say the rogue successfully disarms the trap does it not reward XP? Neither consumed any form of resources yet most would consider those to reward XP.

I'm still more focused on the inherent risks involved in the encounter. Further down the page (seriously, please read it)

"A dangerous encounter that the PCs' overcome handily through luck or excellent strategy is worth full XP"

A dragon is still a dangerous encounter, even though the Ubercharger used strategy to get there (because that means he caught the dragon without buffs up, on the ground, with a clear lane to charge, all of which implies significant amounts of prep work/tactics). Ditto a trap.

EDIT


Easy solution: have it take resources, but then devise a trap to replenish those resources.

I'm going to point to Mnemonic enhancer as a way to grant spell slots, and hp are easy.

Additionally, this sounds like the most awesome wizard training school ever.

This is a solution. I don't think the term "resources" in this context is ever defined, so this could work, although it could also be argued that a meaningless resource isn't a resource at all. Experience gains are weird....

[Tyndmyr]

This is a solution. I don't think the term "resources" in this context is ever defined, so this could work, although it could also be argued that a meaningless resource isn't a resource at all. Experience gains are weird....

Well, if availability of healing means that hp are not a resource, then fighters would have a lot of trouble ever leveling at all.

[Menteith]

Well, if availability of healing means that hp are not a resource, then fighters would have a lot of trouble ever leveling at all.

True. I'm going to see if I can find a solid definition of what "resources" are, as the term breaks down hard in an infinite system like TV.

[Suddo]

@Menteith:
I would read the DMG but I'm at work right now (I'll read it after I get off) and I understand the concept my point is that in order for the citizen of the tippyverse to get the key from the goblin he either has to attack it, bluff it or diplomacy it. The choice is their and either way it will fall under the example of them being lucky or having to exert resources. If he should fail, either due to time or a contingency on triggers due to low HP, he doesn't gain XP and must repeat the test. This means that he is actually in a scenario where he can fail but not die. Same as a simple pit-trap. Afterwards he will be healed up, dispelled and either sent to the next challenge or have to repeat the previous challenge.

[Novawurmson]

Is there a way you could pull this off with a lesser vigor trap and a resetting dagger that each go off once a minute?

If the dagger only deals 1d4 damage, even on a crit on someone with 0 HP, that's still not a kill. One minute is long enough to restore all damage dealt (though a strictly more optimal reset time would be 8 rounds to be completely clear the damage will not be fatal).

Alternatively, have the dagger strike once every 4 rounds. That way, there is a (minimal) risk of death if there's a string of natural 20s, making it harrowing, possibly lethal, and more reliably worthy of sweet, sweet experience.

I imagine this would be even more funny if you have an unarmed strike trap that deals 1d3 damage every 3 rounds. Get punched in the face by a robot arm to victory!

[Menteith]

@ Tyndmyr
The chance of a death constitutes the use of a resource over several encounters. Even if healing is endless (Everyone has Tomb-Tainted Soul with a Dread Necro, automatic trap of CLW, etc) there is a risk in each fight that a nontrivial condition (Death, Flesh to Stone, Polymorph any Object, etc) will afflict a given party member, effectively using up 100% of that person's resources. If this risk is 20%, and they face 5 identical encounters, then even if that person uses no other resources, they will have used 100% of their resources over 5 fights, and thus deserve experience for all of the encounters.


...my point is that in order for the citizen of the tippyverse to get the key from the goblin he either has to attack it, bluff it or diplomacy it. The choice is their and either way it will fall under the example of them being lucky or having to exert resources. If he should fail, either due to time or a contingency on triggers due to low HP, he doesn't gain XP and must repeat the test. This means that he is actually in a scenario where he can fail but not die. Same as a simple pit-trap. Afterwards he will be healed up, dispelled and either sent to the next challenge or have to repeat the previous challenge.

1) The challenge cannot ever inflict meaningful consequences on the person.

2) The challenge does not require the use of any resources of the commoner.

Thus, The commoner can face down an infinite amount of these encounters.

The "What's Challenging?" sub-section (DMG p49) states that an encounter with EL = PC level should take 20% of their resources. If the EL is two lower than the party's level, the should be able to take on twice as many encounters. Two levels lower than that, and they can take on four times as many, and so on.

Logical Leap Based on the guidelines for modifying EL
An encounter that the PCs can face an endless amount of is EL0 (or even a negative EL), and thus awards no experience.

[VGLordR2]

Each time a commoner walks into the room, hand him nothing but an one use item of Cure Light Wounds. If he uses it, he will use 100% of his resources. He also has a chance of failure depending on when he chooses to use it.

[Tyndmyr]

@ Tyndmyr
The chance of a death constitutes the use of a resource over several encounters. Even if healing is endless (Everyone has Tomb-Tainted Soul with a Dread Necro, automatic trap of CLW, etc) there is a risk in each fight that a nontrivial condition (Death, Flesh to Stone, Polymorph any Object, etc) will afflict a given party member, effectively using up 100% of that person's resources. If this risk is 20%, and they face 5 identical encounters, then even if that person uses no other resources, they will have used 100% of their resources over 5 fights, and thus deserve experience for all of the encounters.

So, the only resource that matters is death?

Do you have any rules citation for chance of death having to match resource use?

Additionally, I'd like to point out that a level 1 warforged commoner(or any class) with a magic weapon can kill an indefinite number of shadows. Yet, a shadow is a CR 3 anyway.

[Suddo]

1) The challenge cannot ever inflict meaningful consequences on the person.

2) The challenge does not require the use of any resources of the commoner.

Thus, The commoner can face down an infinite amount of these encounters.

The "What's Challenging?" sub-section (DMG p49) states that an encounter with EL = PC level should take 20% of their resources. If the EL is two lower than the party's level, the should be able to take on twice as many encounters. Two levels lower than that, and they can take on four times as many, and so on.

Logical Leap Based on the guidelines for modifying EL
An encounter that the PCs can face an endless amount of is EL0 (or even a negative EL), and thus awards no experience.
What are you talking about either: A) They bluff/diplomacy the goblin (falls under luck which was discussed as allowing them to receive XP) or B) They have to fight it and may take damage (I said DR 1 or 2 and Fortification not DR1000). If they would fall unconscious things prevent their death and they receive nothing.

Edit: Also I'd make it so that every room is different and every time they are ready to level they take it and you up the challenge significantly.

[Toliudar]

I am happy with a Tippyverse in which individuals can observe reproducible effects - like what happens when someone casts a spell - and extrapolate out from that to make the use of magic more systemic.

I don't remember any aspect of Tippy's world in which effects that are neither observable nor reproducible - the gaining of XP - can be extrapolated in the same way.

It might be observable in-character that people who go out and do dangerous things, solve problems and overcome challenges gain in their mastery of their craft, in their use of magic, etc. But to have an IC understanding of the mechanics of XP, as outlined in this scenario, is way too meta for my tastes.

[Menteith]

So, the only resource that matters is death?

Do you have any rules citation for chance of death having to match resource use?

Additionally, I'd like to point out that a level 1 warforged commoner(or any class) with a magic weapon can kill an indefinite number of shadows. Yet, a shadow is a CR 3 anyway.

I honestly don't think the term is defined. I'm looking right now, and if someone could correct me about it I'd be appreciative, but from what I'm seeing there isn't a hard definition of "A party's resources".

From what I'm reading, a resource is defined as something that allows a party to continue in a given task. This could be spells/day, wand charges, hit points, ammunition. (Effective) Death, without readily available means of subverting it, represents 100% of a given persons resources being expended. The risk of death is the risk of losing all of your resources. This relates risk toward resources, and allows for a Mundane/Initiator to effectively "expend" their resources over a series of encounters.

I could be really off on that, and if I am, please let me know. I honestly haven't taken this close of a look at exp before, and it's decidedly strange. Also, CR =! EL. A Warforged with a magic item faces down an EL that is significantly lower than the Shadow's CR, as the environment (immunity to the Shadow) changes the challenge.

@Suddo
Would you agree that it is impossible for a meaningful consequence to be applied to the commoner?

Additionally, would you agree that the commoner, given time, will always succeed?

[PirateMonk]

It's taking up resources, sure, but not the commoner's resources. If a commoner comes face to face with a Red Dragon, but then a level 20 Wizard immediately jumps in and kills the dragon with a single spell, the commoner shouldn't get XP for that.

Make the commoner pay some amount of money for the potion (or, better yet, for access to the acid resistance trap), then give them the same amount of money (or leave it in a treasure chest) for winning their encounter with the acid arrow trap.

[Tyndmyr]

Also, CR =! EL. A Warforged with a magic item faces down an EL that is significantly lower than the Shadow's CR, as the environment (immunity to the Shadow) changes the challenge.

It's not an environment issue. It's a simple case where the attack of one matches up with the immunity of the other.

It's like an elf vs an enchanter loaded up with sleep spells.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

First, I agree with Andorax, in TV the DM is not making logical rules against RAW. This includes following vague guidelines on handling situations. Alternatively. . .

So, in order to gain full by-the-book appropriate XP for an encounter of a given CR the encounter must.

1. Present a threat.

2. Be expected to have a decent chance of take up resources.
2a. These resources must be those of the character in question ie not the spells of a mage that isn't getting a share of the XP.
2b. Only has to be expected; lucky surprise round crits and disarmed traps grant full XP. You, don't get screwed because you played smart and/or the dice were on your side.

With this in mind I propose that at birth everyone be given a backpack filled with trap created goods. These will be held in safe keeping by parents until the children are mature enough to carry them. These things are now undoubtedly "theirs". Upon reaching the proper age and completing basic schooling which includes at least one rank in several knowledges they go to the modified CAP.

The CAP is a series of rooms each with a deadly over CR encounter which can easily be circumvented with either an item from their backpack or a piece of loot from a previous encounter. However, all of these encounters will be real and potentially deadly. You can go ahead and put a few health potions in the pack (or vigor traps at rest points) or maybe even one get out of jail free card, but some people will fail a DC 5 Knowledge or Int check and die, eugenics.

[Menteith]

It's not an environment issue. It's a simple case where the attack of one matches up with the immunity of the other.

It's like an elf vs an enchanter loaded up with sleep spells.

Environment doesn't mean just the terrain or physical location. Still, you make a good point. If a player casts Protection from Fire, they don't have a lowered experience reward against a Fire Elemental, and race selection could be argued as tactics. I don't know if it's a great argument, but you could. The fundamental problem that I have with all of this is that they specifically call out how subjective these decisions are;

"Modify all ELs and experience rewards as you see fit...",

"...your judgement overrules whatever the XP table would say."

"an encounter where the PCs defeat something far above their own level was probably the result of fantastic luck or a unique set of circumstances, and thus a full XP award may not be appropriate. You're going to need to make these decisions"

"Experience Point Awards for a group of a given level are the least and most XP you should award a group. Circumstances in your campaign may alter this, however."
(DMG p39-40)

The RAW that I've found supports the idea that these circumstances would not generate experience in the manner suggested. It also flat out states that a DM can alter these rewards as they see fit. It's like trying to arbitrate the limits of the Wish spell...

EDIT
Hand of Vecna is correct.

[Fyermind]

Consider this:
A small team of people are equipped for combat, and placed in a room.
Magical traps cast useful buff spells on them.
A maximized summon monster III trap summons 5 celestial monkeys that attack the team of people
They defend against the monkeys for 4 rounds (the trap is caster level 4, because we can do that, see threads on minimizing caster level)
After 4 rounds they have as a team overcome a CR 7 encounter (Spell level 6+1)
A set of close wounds traps will go off if anyone takes enough damage to pass out.
A dimension door trap will take any character targeted by a close wounds trap out of the room.

They really do face a CR7 encounter, and should gain XP for it.
They use resources in the same manner a melee fighter does with a cleric backing him up.
Most importantly it makes sense that they would be gaining experience from this. They are fighting monsters as a team defending themselves. This is what adventurers do for experience all the time.

A cheesier version would be a hallway full of traps that have bad effects but low search and disable device DCs. Cast a few buff spells to allow commoners to disable devices and give them high checks, then let them walk down the hallway disabling each trap as they go. they get experience for beating the encounter.

[ThiagoMartell]

I am happy with a Tippyverse in which individuals can observe reproducible effects - like what happens when someone casts a spell - and extrapolate out from that to make the use of magic more systemic.

I don't remember any aspect of Tippy's world in which effects that are neither observable nor reproducible - the gaining of XP - can be extrapolated in the same way.

It might be observable in-character that people who go out and do dangerous things, solve problems and overcome challenges gain in their mastery of their craft, in their use of magic, etc. But to have an IC understanding of the mechanics of XP, as outlined in this scenario, is way too meta for my tastes.

I want to agree with you, but between crafting magical items and thought bottles, I think it is possible to understand how the XP system works IC.

[Tyndmyr]

Levels are pretty trivial to discover IC, and once you have levels, you can correlate the gaining of them to the trouncing of monsters...harder monsters = faster leveling. Easy day.

[lunar2]

Danger Room: an underground cave system that is closed off, and has renewable natural resources such as plants, etc. for crafting traps, snares, and other items. take the entire class in groups of 1,000 into this closed off cave system, give them all nonlethal versions of their favorite weapons, all caster types are given a minor item that makes their damaging spells nonlethal, and appropriate generic gear for their level. tell them to fight it out, and record the results. all students who successfully disable 3 opponents get to go to the next grade, those who fail repeat the grade. teams of up to 3 are acceptable, and each team member gets full credit for the "kill". the test is over when there is only 1 person left standing.

all characters who graduate will have earned between 300-900 exp, assuming that these are all level 1 characters with standard class levels. they will have earned an additional 100-300 xp per kill above the 3 kill minimum, to a maximum of 2,999 exp. therefore, a good portion of the graduating students will attain level 2 (and those that don't will likely fail the next grade, and get extra experience there)

this situation awards full exp, because

a. they are actually using their skills in combat.

b. there is a real possibility of, and consequence to, failure.

c. they aren't receiving undue assistance from high level traps and/or characters.

[mattie_p]

I want to agree with you, but between crafting magical items and thought bottles, I think it is possible to understand how the XP system works IC.


Levels are pretty trivial to discover IC, and once you have levels, you can correlate the gaining of them to the trouncing of monsters...harder monsters = faster leveling. Easy day.

Not only XP and levels, but I strongly suspect with the wizards in Tippyverse with infinite life expectancy and 30+ int, they have more than their fair share of Galileos, Newtons, Keplers, Teslas, Einsteins, Darwins, Holmes, Hawkings, Dawkins, and others. Thus they can discover all the mechanics of their world, such as the ubiquity of the d20. In fact, Tippyverse Grand Unified Theory is all about the d20. With sufficient testing, sufficient time, and sufficient scientific rigor, they could produce an almost word for word PHB, DMG, and whatever other source books apply. I guarantee they have them.

[Endarire]

In a typical game I ran, I do away with XP for reasons such as this and just award levels at plot-appropriate times. There: I don't need to worry about how NPC X got to level Y. It was the power of plot!

Reading this, however, was wonderful! Is there anything preventing death ward and wail of the banshee danger rooms? If not, you could make a veritable army with this in the course of a week at most! (Depending on the speed of advancement, your dudes could go L1-20 in a day at most. Combine with genesis: flowing time plane- we'll assume it works- for seemingly arbitrary amounts of instant leveling!)