The Optimized Bite Eidolon (PF)

[NeoSeraphi]

Hey guys. I'm wondering how much power I can put behind a basic eidolon if I take a half-elf summoner (with the favored class bonus for extra evolution points) and just focus on the Bite natural weapon for the Eidolon.

The first question is, quadruped or serpentine? Quadrupeds have 14 base Strength, while Serpentines get a free Reach evolution for their bite. Thoughts?

Next, we have the evolutions to choose. I'm only listing the ones that I would choose to directly optimize my damage output and power/skill with my bite attack:

Bite (For 1 1/2x Strength) - 1 point
Improved Damage (Bite )- 1 point
Reach (Bite) - 1 point (Quadruped Only)
Energy Attacks (Bite) - 2 points
Poison (Bite, Con damage) - 4 points
Trip - 2 points
Large (Huge) - 10 points

This would require me to have a 13th level summoner first, but I would have exactly enough points (17 from class, +3 from half-elf bonuses). In the end, with a Quadruped Eidolon, I would have:

Bite +21/+16 (3d6+19, plus 1d6 electricity damage plus Con poison for 4 rounds), plus Trip (CMB +25). And I would have 15' reach with this bite.

Edit: If I have my Eidolon take Power Attack, by the way, it changes to-

Bite +18/+13 (3d6+28 plus 1d6 electricity damage plus Con poison for 4 rounds), plus Trip (CMB +25 [22? Does Power Attack apply here?]).

That looks pretty strong, in my opinion, though of course my Eidolon would not have any extra evolution points for defense or spellcasting or anything.

What do you guys think? And what about feats? Does the Improved Natural Attack feat stack with the Improved Damage evolution?

If my summoner takes Extra Evolution 3 times before then, I would have an extra +3 evolution points to work with. What could I spend them on?

For feats, do you think Improved Unarmed Strike (which doesn't actually require you to have unarmed strike in order to take), Combat Reflexes, and Vicious Stomp would be good choices? My eidolon would have a total of 15 Dexterity (14 base +5 levels -4 Huge), so it would still qualify and would have three AoOs per round instead of 1 (and get free AoOs off its Trip attack).

Edit II: Damn, I don't know how Vicious Stomp would work if you don't actually have an unarmed strike. I suppose I could beg my DM to let my eidolon use its bite attack, since my eidolon can't take Greater Trip...maybe that would work? Stupid Int prerequisites...

[Arbane]

Don't forget Swallow Whole. That might be fun...

[NeoSeraphi]

Don't forget Swallow Whole. That might be fun...

I don't think so...Swallow Whole requires Grab, so that's some more Evolution points I'd have to spend, and it wouldn't let me Trip. So the question is, would I rather trip a creature and knock it prone (then get my AoO from Vicious Stomp before continuing to maul it with a bite) or swallow the creature whole and leave it inside my body where it can just start attacking me. Meanwhile, I move on to something else.

Also important, the more bites I can hit with, the more Con poison I inflict. I'd rather keep creatures outside, prone on the ground, than swallow them. I just think that's a dangerous tactic.

[jaybird]

Improved Natural Attack does stack with Improved Damage.

If you're focusing on Bite attacks, may I suggest the combination of Combat Reflexes and Biped? You get an additional 5' of reach and the Dex to make a solid number of AoOs.

Also, what's with the iterative attacks? That's...not how an Eidolon's natural attacks work. As far as I am aware, you get only one attack with each natural weapon, at full attack bonus.

[NeoSeraphi]

Improved Natural Attack does stack with Improved Damage.

If you're focusing on Bite attacks, may I suggest the combination of Combat Reflexes and Biped? You get an additional 5' of reach and the Dex to make a solid number of AoOs.

Combat Reflexes doesn't help me too much when I grow Huge (-4 penalty to Dexterity). Especially since the biped starts with only 12 Dexterity. Essentially, I'd be trading a 1 point evolution (Reach) for a 1 point evolution (Bite, since the biped evolution does not get it for free). In the end, I end up with 2 extra Strength and 2 fewer Dexterity, so higher damage and CMB in exchange for lower AC and CMD. I don't know how that would work out, I'd have to playtest it.



Also, what's with the iterative attacks? That's...not how an Eidolon's natural attacks work. As far as I am aware, you get only one attack with each natural weapon, at full attack bonus.

Eidolons are weird like that.


An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite 3 or more natural attacks (or it is reduced to less than 3 attacks), the eidolon instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty. If the eidolon later gains 3 or more natural attacks, it loses this additional attack and instead gains Multiattack.

Another disadvantage to the biped evolution. If I have the two claws granted by the biped evolution in addition to the bite, I do not get an iterative attack with my bite (and one extra attack with my bite that I'm optimizing is way better than two extra attacks with my claws that don't have energy damage, poison, or 1 1/2 bonus Strength damage).

[jaybird]

At that point, why not just buy extra bite attacks, though?

[NeoSeraphi]

At that point, why not just buy extra bite attacks, though?

Because that costs extra heads, and that's incredibly inefficient. You waste evolution points that you could use on improving your single (or double) bite attack on extra heads, and extra bites, that don't even come up that often unless you spend another two points on Pounce.

Nah, I'd rather just make one powerful attack and move/bite. Plus, more importantly, the Poison evolution states "Pick one bite attack", meaning I would have to purchase it multiple times in order to have it apply to each head. No thanks.

[jaybird]

Fair enough. In that case, I'd suggest Ability Increase, even though I feel it's a bit overcosted. Maybe Push for the Bite attack, for alternative control options? Regarding Extra Evolution, I'd go with Natural Armor. +6 NA is never a bad thing, and you can cover mobility with your spells (Lesser Quickened DimDoor is a beautiful thing).

[NeoSeraphi]

Fair enough. In that case, I'd suggest Ability Increase, even though I feel it's a bit overcosted. Maybe Push for the Bite attack, for alternative control options? Regarding Extra Evolution, I'd go with Natural Armor. +6 NA is never a bad thing, and you can cover mobility with your spells (Lesser Quickened DimDoor is a beautiful thing).

Ability Increase is really hard to get when you've already got Large and Huge. (It's like 4 for a +2 bonus to Str or Con).

My quadruped's Strength score will already be 37, so I think it's high enough (14 base +5 level +16 Huge +2 from Eidolon Features progression). And of course, I can cast enlarge person and make my Eidolon Gargantuan for 39 Str if necessary (For some ridiculous reason, the increase from Huge is not a Size bonus, so it stacks with Size bonuses. I guess because it's a true Size increase, but still).

+6 Natural Armor or Push...hmmm....both of them are good. Push is definitely nice with Reach and Combat Reflexes.

By the way, what items and feats can I get for my eidolon to boost its CMB for Trip checks?

[jaybird]

Well, there's Felling Smash which lets you trip every Power Attack, but that seems like a feat more suited to clawdolons which, you know...DON'T get trip with attacks anyways :smalltongue:

Fury's Fall lets you add Dex to CMB on Trip.

Honestly, though, they require Improved Trip...which requires Combat Expertise. Not sure if Dex to CMB for a Huge creature is worth three feats.

[NeoSeraphi]

Honestly, though, they require Improved Trip...which requires Combat Expertise. Not sure if Dex to CMB for a Huge creature is worth three feats.

I can't take Combat Expertise or Improved Trip, my Eidolon only has 7 Int. Any other ideas for boosting CMB? (Items would be better, since they usually don't have prerequisites).

[jaybird]

I can't take Combat Expertise or Improved Trip, my Eidolon only has 7 Int. Any other ideas for boosting CMB? (Items would be better, since they usually don't have prerequisites).


Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.

Combat section of PFSRD. Just stack attack bonuses, I guess - Greater Magic Fang, Amulet of Natural Weapons, etc etc.

[Jerthanis]

I don't think so...Swallow Whole requires Grab, so that's some more Evolution points I'd have to spend, and it wouldn't let me Trip. So the question is, would I rather trip a creature and knock it prone (then get my AoO from Vicious Stomp before continuing to maul it with a bite) or swallow the creature whole and leave it inside my body where it can just start attacking me. Meanwhile, I move on to something else.

Also important, the more bites I can hit with, the more Con poison I inflict. I'd rather keep creatures outside, prone on the ground, than swallow them. I just think that's a dangerous tactic.

Here's a good combination if you get high enough level for it: Use Greater Evolution Surge to give both Damage Resistance and Swallow Whole. That way you don't waste the Evo Points during fights against large and larger creatures where you can't swallow whole, AND when you do swallow whole, they have to use a small-sized slashing or piercing weapon (which they might not have) AND overcome 5 points of DR with it.

Other than that combo, Swallow Whole is pretty hard to justify.

Enlarge Person shouldn't work on an Eidolon, since it's an Outsider. Person spells only work on Humanoids I think. Bull's Strength would work though, as would putting a Belt of +4 Strength on it.

[jaybird]

Enlarge Person shouldn't work on an Eidolon, since it's an Outsider. Person spells only work on Humanoids I think. Bull's Strength would work though, as would putting a Belt of +4 Strength on it.

Anything the Summoner casts that would affect him can also affect the Eidolon.

[NeoSeraphi]

Here's a good combination if you get high enough level for it: Use Greater Evolution Surge to give both Damage Resistance and Swallow Whole. That way you don't waste the Evo Points during fights against large and larger creatures where you can't swallow whole, AND when you do swallow whole, they have to use a small-sized slashing or piercing weapon (which they might not have) AND overcome 5 points of DR with it.

Other than that combo, Swallow Whole is pretty hard to justify.

You still need Grab, though. You can't take Swallow Whole without Grab. And grappling isn't a good idea for the Eidolon, since it can't take AoOs and therefore loses all the benefits of its 15' reach while it's grabbing a creature.

Though I suppose having the option to do it via a spell (rather than actually spending Evo points on it) makes it tolerable.



Enlarge Person shouldn't work on an Eidolon, since it's an Outsider. Person spells only work on Humanoids I think. Bull's Strength would work though, as would putting a Belt of +4 Strength on it.

The Share Spells feature overrides that:


The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.

[Jerthanis]

Anything the Summoner casts that would affect him can also affect the Eidolon.

Welp, next session I'ma have a Gargantuan Dragon-Eidolon then, thanks. I thought it was like the Wizard/Sorcerer familiar and it was just like "as long as you stay within 5' and it's all legal and stuff, you both benefit from spells you cast on each other" and never read it closely enough to see I could do that.

So yeah... Gargantuan Dragon.

[NeoSeraphi]

Welp, next session I'ma have a Gargantuan Dragon-Eidolon then, thanks. I thought it was like the Wizard/Sorcerer familiar and it was just like "as long as you stay within 5' and it's all legal and stuff, you both benefit from spells you cast on each other" and never read it closely enough to see I could do that.

So yeah... Gargantuan Dragon.

Yeah, freaking summoners. That "cast any personal spell on your eidolon" is pretty nice too. You can give your eidolon spells like fire shield, expeditious retreat, dimension door, overland flight, ethereal jaunt, and spell turning. Then he storms into melee like a boss and doesn't give a damn what people do to him.

[grarrrg]

First off, I'm going to leave this here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13346106)
While not horribly relevant, it is quite entertaining.


Bite (For 1 1/2x Strength) - 1 point


From either Eidolon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons) OR Natural Attack rules:
"If the eidolon only has a single natural attack, the attack is made using its full base attack bonus and it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with that attack, regardless of the attack’s type."

If you ONLY have ONE Bite attack, check with your DM if you can get them to stack for 2x Strength to damage, otherwise it is pointless to take Bite again for the enhancement.


Nah, I'd rather just make one powerful attack and move/bite. Plus, more importantly, the Poison evolution states "Pick one bite attack", meaning I would have to purchase it multiple times in order to have it apply to each head. No thanks.

The Poison Evolution (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons) does NOT have a clause allowing you to take it multiple times.
Poison also states:
"This poison can be used no more than once per round"
So even if you COULD get multiple Poisons on the same Eidolon, you would STILL be limited to once per round.



Also, what's with the iterative attacks? That's...not how an Eidolon's natural attacks work. As far as I am aware, you get only one attack with each natural weapon, at full attack bonus.
Eidolons are weird like that.

Eidolons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons) are not weird like that. You only get 1 attack per Natural Attack.
"Eidolons do not gain additional attacks using their natural weapons for a high base attack bonus."


Now that we have the Rules Mishaps out of the way...

focus on the Bite natural weapon for the Eidolon.

The first question is, quadruped or serpentine? Quadrupeds have 14 base Strength, while Serpentines get a free Reach evolution for their bite. Thoughts?

In the long run you are going to be better off with Multiple Attacks, so you should keep that in mind.

Let's see what each gets you...
Quad's have +2 Str, a bad Will save, Move speed of 40ft., and can take the Pounce Evolution (if/when you have more than 1 Attack).

Serpent's have +2 Dex, a bad Fort save, Move speed of 20ft., Climb speed of 20ft., Reach, and a Tail/Tail-Slap.


I'd vote for Quad over Serpent. Even though the Will Save hurts, having access to Pounce is VERY handy. That and 20ft. move speed is slow, and Tail Slap is a Secondary attack.


Improved Natural Attack Feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/improved-natural-attack), and Improved Damage Evolution both apply to ALL of the selected attacks.
So ALL of your Bites would have +Damage.

For 3 Evo-points, you grow another Head+Bite.
After adding Imp. Damage/Imp. Natural Attack/Energy Attacks/Huge...
Each Bite should be doing 3d8 +1d6e +STR damage (e is Energy)
If you cast Enlarge Person each Bite would do 4d8 +1d6e +STR damage.
If you spend an extra 1 Evo-Point on a Bite it gains +1/2 STR to damage.

(Huge bite does 2d6, Imp. Natural is a Size increase to 3d6, and Imp Damage actually increases the size of the Dice not the attack, making the 6's into 8's).

Bite's are not the most efficient cost/power, but they are serviceable, and the only Poison delivery attack outside of the less-useful Tail Sting.

[NeoSeraphi]

From either Eidolon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons) OR Natural Attack rules:
"If the eidolon only has a single natural attack, the attack is made using its full base attack bonus and it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with that attack, regardless of the attack’s type."

If you ONLY have ONE Bite attack, check with your DM if you can get them to stack for 2x Strength to damage, otherwise it is pointless to take Bite again for the enhancement.


Ah, I missed that clause. Alright then, saves me an evolution point at least.



The Poison Evolution (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons) does NOT have a clause allowing you to take it multiple times.
Poison also states:
"This poison can be used no more than once per round"
So even if you COULD get multiple Poisons on the same Eidolon, you would STILL be limited to once per round.


Yep. So no reason to try and get multiple bites.



Eidolons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons) are not weird like that. You only get 1 attack per Natural Attack.
"Eidolons do not gain additional attacks using their natural weapons for a high base attack bonus."


You are incorrect here. Please go back and read the Multiattack eidolon feature, gained at summoner level 9. It clearly states that if the eidolon does not have at least 3 natural attacks, it instead gains an additional attack per round with one of its natural weapons at a -5 penalty. So yes, eidolons are weird like that.




In the long run you are going to be better off with Multiple Attacks, so you should keep that in mind.

Perhaps, but I prefer the Poison/Trip route. I don't want a hydra for a pet. I want a giant wolf. Plus Pounce is ridiculous and will most likely draw ire from my fellow players as well as my DM. I'm optimizing a single bite here, not the summoner or the eidolon. I want this to actually be playable at a table, and as far as I am concerned, Pounce should not be on the player's side of the table (And most of my DMs heartily agree with me).



Let's see what each gets you...
Quad's have +2 Str, a bad Will save, Move speed of 40ft., and can take the Pounce Evolution (if/when you have more than 1 Attack).

Serpent's have +2 Dex, a bad Fort save, Move speed of 20ft., Climb speed of 20ft., Reach, and a Tail/Tail-Slap.

I'd vote for Quad over Serpent. Even though the Will Save hurts, having access to Pounce is VERY handy. That and 20ft. move speed is slow, and Tail Slap is a Secondary attack.


I didn't notice the 20 ft move speed. Yeah, I think Quadruped will be better in the long run.



Improved Natural Attack Feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/improved-natural-attack), and Improved Damage Evolution both apply to ALL of the selected attacks.
So ALL of your Bites would have +Damage.

For 3 Evo-points, you grow another Head+Bite.
After adding Imp. Damage/Imp. Natural Attack/Energy Attacks/Huge...
Each Bite should be doing 3d8 +1d6e +STR damage (e is Energy)
If you cast Enlarge Person each Bite would do 4d8 +1d6e +STR damage.
If you spend an extra 1 Evo-Point on a Bite it gains +1/2 STR to damage.

(Huge bite does 2d6, Imp. Natural is a Size increase to 3d6, and Imp Damage actually increases the size of the Dice not the attack, making the 6's into 8's).

Bite's are not the most efficient cost/power, but they are serviceable, and the only Poison delivery attack outside of the less-useful Tail Sting.

I see, I didn't know Improved Damage worked that way. So then if I enlarge my eidolon, it becomes a Gargantuan with 4d8+1d6+1 1/2 Strength mod for one bite, which it can use twice per round. It also gets Trip on that bite, and Poison. Excellent! Thanks for your help.

[Callous]

There is only one way to eidolon.. and that is the Synthezist! :thog::thog::thog:

[grarrrg]

You are incorrect here. Please go back and read the Multiattack eidolon feature, gained at summoner level 9. It clearly states that if the eidolon does not have at least 3 natural attacks, it instead gains an additional attack per round with one of its natural weapons at a -5 penalty. So yes, eidolons are weird like that.

I stand corrected.
Still it is only 1 extra attack, at a to-hit penalty.
You'd still be better off adding more attacks in the long run.
Going "wolf",
Body-wise it would have a Head, 4 Legs (2 evolutions, 4 actual legs), and a Tail to work with.
Head > Bite
Legs > Claws + Hooves (Claws can only be added to Legs once, Hooves can only be added to legs once, would have to re-flavor Hooves as Claws because of this)
Tail > Tail Slap

You could still end up with 6 attacks, each would be at 'Huge' base size, and have a decent STR bonus (albeit only 1/2 STR for the Hooves/Tail).
They should all still do good damage, even without spending points on Improved Damage Evolution, or taking the Imp. Natural Attack Feat.

Your other option is to just go with Bite + Tail Slap, the Multiattack/Extra Attack clause doesn't kick in unless you have 3 attacks, so you could/SHOULD still throw 1 extra attack on.
Attack routine of Bite at Full To-Hit, Bite at -5 To-Hit, Slap at -5 To-hit would add minimal cost to the build, and still give you more damage.

[NeoSeraphi]

I stand corrected.
Still it is only 1 extra attack, at a to-hit penalty.
You'd still be better off adding more attacks in the long run.
Going "wolf",
Body-wise it would have a Head, 4 Legs (2 evolutions, 4 actual legs), and a Tail to work with.
Head > Bite
Legs > Claws + Hooves (Claws can only be added to Legs once, Hooves can only be added to legs once, would have to re-flavor Hooves as Claws because of this)
Tail > Tail Slap

You could still end up with 6 attacks, each would be at 'Huge' base size, and have a decent STR bonus (albeit only 1/2 STR for the Hooves/Tail).
They should all still do good damage, even without spending points on Improved Damage Evolution, or taking the Imp. Natural Attack Feat.

Your other option is to just go with Bite + Tail Slap, the Multiattack/Extra Attack clause doesn't kick in unless you have 3 attacks, so you could/SHOULD still throw 1 extra attack on.
Attack routine of Bite at Full To-Hit, Bite at -5 To-Hit, Slap at -5 To-hit would add minimal cost to the build, and still give you more damage.

Right, but I don't want that. I admit that this isn't the best build, but it's the build I'm trying to optimize. A build that doesn't stack all these natural attacks and instead just tries to focus on a single natural.

And I don't have enough evolution points to get tail and tail slap. I would have to spend an additional point to get Bite's 1 1/2 Strength back to damage, (since I would have more than one natural attack) so that would only leave me one additional point (from the Extra Evolution feat).

Plus, most importantly, I'm not going to get to use all these extra natural attacks most of the time, since most of the time my eidolon will be moving and attacking. I refuse to use the Pounce evolution, I simply refuse to use it. So it's not going to help me to get a whole bunch of attacks that I would need to be within reach to use.

[grarrrg]

And I don't have enough evolution points to get tail and tail slap. I would have to spend an additional point to get Bite's 1 1/2 Strength back to damage...
...Pounce evolution, I simply refuse to use it. So it's not going to help me to get a whole bunch of attacks that I would need to be within reach to use.

Keep the Tail/Slap in mind for "Future Planning", as you currently have just about everything "needed" for the build right now, there isn't too much more (Evolution-wise anyway) to add.

I'm ok with no-Pounce.
But there will still be plenty of times where having a Full Attack Bite+Bite+Slap will come in handy.
Tail Slap has the same 'base' damage as Bite (less/worse enhancement options though), and it is relatively cheap to add, 1 Evo for the Tail, 1 Evo for the Slap.

[NeoSeraphi]

Keep the Tail/Slap in mind for "Future Planning", as you currently have just about everything "needed" for the build right now, there isn't too much more (Evolution-wise anyway) to add.

I'm ok with no-Pounce.
But there will still be plenty of times where having a Full Attack Bite+Bite+Slap will come in handy.
Tail Slap has the same 'base' damage as Bite (less/worse enhancement options though), and it is relatively cheap to add, 1 Evo for the Tail, 1 Evo for the Slap.

Alright, so I guess...wait, no, I forgot, I would have Extra Evolution 3 times by this point. So that's Tail, Tail Slap. And then I have one extra evolution point. Hmmm...I guess Improved Natural Armor would be the best use of that.

[Callous]

Synthesizzzzeeee!

[grarrrg]

Synthesizzzzeeee!

Quiet you, some of us LIKE having better action economy...

[Titomancer]

Interjecting here. I may not know numbers, or optomization (Or even how to spell optomization), but I do know a little bit of something about style.

If you're going to go whole hog and maximize bite, at the cost of it being "not the best build", why not make it...POP!

Serpentine, giant snake. I'm not ENTIRELY sure how it works with size, but if you're DM has a stylish bone in his body, he'll allow this. Giant snake (assuming Huge, I think?) coiled and ready to strike with uberbite and reach, poison, electricity, and tripping. In the center of the coil....Summoner, being all....summon-y. Anyone goes after the mage, bitey mcbiterpants eats their head (that trick with surge and swallow whole is a vicious trick, I like it) and if needed, Haste and let Senor Slinky slither off in oh-so-cool style to chew on someone across the battlefield.

I mean...if you're going to tone down the power for concept, at least make it look bad-ass and make your players hate you for showing them up on sheer cool-factor than numbers.

Just my opinion, but then, I love the Serpentine eidolon.

[NeoSeraphi]

Interjecting here. I may not know numbers, or optomization (Or even how to spell optomization), but I do know a little bit of something about style.

If you're going to go whole hog and maximize bite, at the cost of it being "not the best build", why not make it...POP!

Serpentine, giant snake. I'm not ENTIRELY sure how it works with size, but if you're DM has a stylish bone in his body, he'll allow this. Giant snake (assuming Huge, I think?) coiled and ready to strike with uberbite and reach, poison, electricity, and tripping. In the center of the coil....Summoner, being all....summon-y. Anyone goes after the mage, bitey mcbiterpants eats their head (that trick with surge and swallow whole is a vicious trick, I like it) and if needed, Haste and let Senor Slinky slither off in oh-so-cool style to chew on someone across the battlefield.

I mean...if you're going to tone down the power for concept, at least make it look bad-ass and make your players hate you for showing them up on sheer cool-factor than numbers.

Just my opinion, but then, I love the Serpentine eidolon.

I agree with you, but I want to save my first Serpentine eidolon for when I'm ready to do it right. Grab, Constrict, Swallow Whole and Poison, like a real snake! What I'm doing now with Trip and Elemental is definitely more like a wolf (or a winter worg. I should probably just make it cold damage, actually)


Synthesizzzzeeee!

I don't like Synthesis Summoner, because it's less "Summoner" and more "Aura". Like you craft your own armor and wear it, instead of "I call you forth to fulfill your oath in the name of Gedharm, Iron Horse, come serve me!"

As a diehard fan of Summon Nights II, this is unacceptable to me. I must have a separate creature that I call, and my summoner shall have a whip and shall crack it when he gives his giant wolf pet commands.

[Titomancer]

I must have a separate creature that I call, and my summoner shall have a whip and shall crack it when he gives his giant wolf pet commands.

You, sir, have my approval. Godspeed, my good man!

[Callous]

NeoSeraphi, thats because you are limited by the name "summoner"

If paizo instead called the class... "Avatar" you'd be horrified at the thought of summoning an eidolon instead of 'wearing' it.

[Barstro]

The Eidolon that I want to play at some point (if I ever manage to play).

Half Elf
Quadruped

I have not worked through all the numbers;
L20

4 Large
6 Huge
4 Poison, Con
2 Trip
1 Reach
1 Pounce
5 Improve Armor (x5)
1 Improve Damage
6 Ability Increase STRx3

This leaves one extra evolution point (probably for push or pull)
Use Multi-Attack (with one attack) for an extra attack each roung
Haste makes another attack

Because Quadruped starts (and stays) with only one attack, and it is Bite, it gets 1.5 STR added.

The important part of this build is tripping;
Take Combat reflexes to get AoO on everyone you trip that tries to get back up.

I posted a question before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243561) (with no definitive response) about using magic items to qualify for Fury's Fall. Could be interesting if you could do it.

Again, I've never had the chance to use this in battle, but it seems to me like a fantastic front-line attacker.

[NeoSeraphi]

NeoSeraphi, thats because you are limited by the name "summoner"

If paizo instead called the class... "Avatar" you'd be horrified at the thought of summoning an eidolon instead of 'wearing' it.

Yep. But the class isn't named "Avatar". It's named "Summoner". And that's because a lot of the summoner's class features have to do with...summoning. Such as the Eidolon, Maker's Call, Summon Monster I, Summon Monster II, Summon Monster III, Summon Monster IV, Summon Monster V, Summon Monster VI, Summon Monster VII, Summon Monster VIII, Summon Monster IX, and Gate class features.

[NeoSeraphi]

The Eidolon that I want to play at some point (if I ever manage to play).

Half Elf
Quadruped

I have not worked through all the numbers;
L20

4 Large
6 Huge
4 Poison, Con
2 Trip
1 Reach
1 Pounce
5 Improve Armor (x5)
1 Improve Damage
6 Ability Increase STRx3

This leaves one extra evolution point (probably for push or pull)
Use Multi-Attack (with one attack) for an extra attack each roung
Haste makes another attack

Because Quadruped starts (and stays) with only one attack, and it is Bite, it gets 1.5 STR added.

The important part of this build is tripping;
Take Combat reflexes to get AoO on everyone you trip that tries to get back up.

I posted a question before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243561) (with no definitive response) about using magic items to qualify for Fury's Fall. Could be interesting if you could do it.

Again, I've never had the chance to use this in battle, but it seems to me like a fantastic front-line attacker.

That build is inaccurate. It says in the Large description that adding the Ability Increase (Strength) evolution to an eidolon who possesses the Large evolution costs twice as much (4 points per +2 Str).

[Barstro]

That build is inaccurate. It says in the Large description that adding the Ability Increase (Strength) evolution to an eidolon who possesses the Large evolution costs twice as much (4 points per +2 Str).

Ah, you are correct. Thank you for pointing that out.

So... get rid of two Ability increase and have two more points to play with.
Or, get rid of one, get rid of push/pull, need to get the Feat that gives one extra evolution point.

[NeoSeraphi]

Ah, you are correct. Thank you for pointing that out.

So... get rid of two Ability increase and have two more points to play with.
Or, get rid of one, get rid of push/pull, need to get the Feat that gives one extra evolution point.

Well, your 20th level summoner could take that feat 4 times. So that would give you a total of 4 extra Evolution points to play with.