Metamaneuvers (two approaches)

[Andorax]

One of the "unfortunately unsupported options" in Bo9S is the lack of any sort of "metamagic" effect you can apply to maneuvers to power them up.

So I've been toying with a couple of concepts, and would appreciate thoughts on the subject. In either case, it's a feat with a pre-requisite of knowing at least one maneuver and at least one Metamagic feat.

1) Metamaneuvers (the "metabreath" approach).

For each metamagic feat you know, you may apply it, once, to a single maneuver you use per encounter. If you recover your maneuver(s) during the encounter, the modified maneuver's recovery is delayed a number of rounds equal to the spell level modifier of the metamagic feat used.

Example:
In Round 1, my Warblade uses a Maximized Mountain Hammer to deal an extra 12 damage. In round 3, my Warblade does a full attack action and recovers his maneuvers. Mountain Hammer doesn't come back until round 6 (Round 3 + 3 rounds for the +3 spell levels adjustment of Maximize).


2) Maneuver/Meta Combination (the Psi/Spell approach for multiclass/gestalts)

You may apply a metamagic feat to a maneuver that you know. In order to do so, you must sacrifice a spell slot or memorized spell of a level equal to or higher than the level adjustment of the metamagic feat.

Example:

My Swordsage/Sorceror wishes to unleash an Empowered Death Mark. He marks off a 2nd level spell slot to fuel it.





Due to unexpected and unusual interactions, a restriction list would potentially need to be developed for which metamagic feats aren't eligible to be used in this manner.


Thoughts?

[kharmakazy]

Quickened adamantine hurricane ftw.

[ThiagoMartell]

I considerably dislike this.

[Salanmander]

1) Metamaneuvers (the "metabreath" approach).

For each metamagic feat you know, you may apply it, once, to a single maneuver you use per encounter. If you recover your maneuver(s) during the encounter, the modified maneuver's recovery is delayed a number of rounds equal to the spell level modifier of the metamagic feat used.


Bad, do not do this. This ends up being able to grant enormously powerful effects with very little downside, because you can apply powerful metamagic to your highest level maneuvers. It's the same problem that divine metamagic runs into.



2) Maneuver/Meta Combination (the Psi/Spell approach for multiclass/gestalts)

You may apply a metamagic feat to a maneuver that you know. In order to do so, you must sacrifice a spell slot or memorized spell of a level equal to or higher than the level adjustment of the metamagic feat.



Better...but it still has the problem of more-powerful-than-your-level-should-be options. The point of metamagic is (ostensibly) to increase diversity, not power.


I would probably recommend something like saying when you ready maneuvers, you can apply metamagic to them, as long as the level of the maneuver plus the adjustment of the metamagic doesn't exceed the highest level of maneuver you can know.

(i.e. a 5th level warblade can extend a 2nd level maneuver, but not a 3rd level maneuver.)

This still makes metamagic better for initiators than spellcasters, because it effectively turns ALL of their slots into their highest level slots, so I would add some extra restriction. Perhaps only one readied maneuver with each metamagic feat at a given time. (Which would prevent probably the greatest danger of a quickened strike every round as soon as you hit level 7.)

[Andorax]

Salanmander, thank you for the thoughtful replies. I'm thinking a version 3 with "ready maneuvers with meta applied" might very well be a better approach than either of my initial two.


It may also be the case that Quicken is one of the first eligible candidates for the "restricted list". I did mention that such might be necessary.


ThiagoMartell...are you opposed to it in priciple, or in execution? Would you entertain the idea of *some* sort of meta-maneuvering, and if so, would it have to take the form of a host of metamagic-like, maneuver-specific feats, or is there some permutation of this concept that you think would be viable?



The 1st version is based on the same basic principles as the metabreath feats for dragons (and other breath-weapon bearing critters)...trading power for additional delay in regaining access to the base ability.

The 2nd version is based on the same basic principles as some psi/magic meta abilities I've seen which allow for spending psi points to meta-up spells or spell slots to meta-up psionics. Essentially, the balance of being able to boost your best abilities is, presumably, in the fact that in order to have that second resource source to draw on, you've already reduced your effectiveness. A Sorc 4/Warblade 5 already has worse and lower maneuvers available to him than the Warblade 9 would, so the meta-modified lower maneuvers help close the gap.

[ThiagoMartell]

ThiagoMartell...are you opposed to it in priciple, or in execution? Would you entertain the idea of *some* sort of meta-maneuvering, and if so, would it have to take the form of a host of metamagic-like, maneuver-specific feats, or is there some permutation of this concept that you think would be viable?
Both, actually.
In principle, I don't think we need more versatility on the existing maneuvers. More maneuvers/disciplines, that I see as very nice, but "metamaneuvers" don't seem to fit ToB system at all (you usually can't change maneuvers much) or even the fluff that goes with it.
In practice, you first approach considered only a Warblade. Your first approach would allow a lot of extra control in Crusader recovery and simply does not match with Swordsage recovery at all.
Your second approach only seems to work with multiclassing, making a character that is not a full initiator simply better at initiating than one that is.

[heronbpv]

I do like the idea of having meta feats for maneuvers (particularly the idea of using it as a way to improve diversity of said maneuvers), but it should be something not tied/mirroed to the metamagic/psionics/breath(didn't know about this last one) cause of the discrepancies in the way they work.
Just my thoughts though :]

[Xynphos]

If I am not mistaken, there are some feats in the Tome of Magic that allow you to do Meta-magic like things to Supernatural abilities. Some maneuvers are treated as supernatural abilities.

[Eldariel]

Boosts are already more or less metamaneuvers; they enhance the next attack you make which may be a maneuver. Just add more Boosts if you want to expand upon this part of the system (I find the book has a dearth of Boosts).

[Alefiend]

If I am not mistaken, there are some feats in the Tome of Magic that allow you to do Meta-magic like things to Supernatural abilities. Some maneuvers are treated as supernatural abilities.

Some, but very few, and they are only from a couple of schools.

I agree that the maneuvers don't necessarily need meta effects; at most, they could benefit from a little built-in scaling so that the low-level ones don't become irrelevant so quickly.

[Psyren]

Boosts are already more or less metamaneuvers; they enhance the next attack you make which may be a maneuver. Just add more Boosts if you want to expand upon this part of the system (I find the book has a dearth of Boosts).

Boosts are less powerful than metamagic/metapsionics though, and with good reason - Boosts are much cheaper action economy-wise. While Boosts always cost a swift, Metamagic and metapsionics tend to cost a move action (immediately for spontaneous spellcasters, or next round for manifesters.)

So while I think this is a great idea, it might require some tweaking for more powerful boosts. A more powerful form of a Boost could duplicate the effect of metamagic, but under a different name (a Flourish?) and cost a move action.

[Andorax]

Not dead set on either approach (or any approach for that matter), I just had an idea and wanted to see if it had any merit, or could spark a good discusion on it.

I have heard some people comment that they felt the ToB abilities were good, but suffered from the added flexability and power (yes, both) that metamagic provides to magic. Here's a good place to speculate on possible means to address this gap...including saying there is no need.


I do like, in principle, the idea of using boosts, but in practice it would require a great deal of additional development (ie, no easy/shortcut solution), and would wind up eating into the classes' limited number of available maneuvers still worse.


Could there be...should there be...and how...ways for initiators to:

Maximize their damage when the situation is critical?
Modify the fire damage they deal to not be useless against fire-immune targets?
Strike at an opponent who remains frustratingly out of reach?


A metamaneuver variation of some sort on Maximize, Blazing and Reach Spell would allow for these situations to be resolved. I can see boosts designed that would do it as well.

other thoughts?

[ThiagoMartell]

"Metamaneuvers" of any sort encourage you to spam certain maneuvers, and that's the exact opposite of ToB's design goals.

[Toliudar]

The vast majority of metamagics seem not to be appropriate for the vast majority of maneuvers. Would a persisted Iron Heart Surge make you immune to everything, all day? What does Widen or Sculpted mean in the context of a maneuver?

I could easily see a feat or stance that allows Desert Wind initiators to change the energy type. But for anything that's a +1 level or better metamagic, I don't see too many options that don't make the maneuver so much better that you'd never do anything BUT that. Add Fell Drain to any strike? Yes!

I wouldn't have thought that "man, what martial adepts need is a way to be better at melee" would be a prominent train of thought.

[NichG]

Metamagic itself always struck me as a brilliant idea to add versatility that instead tended to fall into the damage amplification rut. If you wanted to do a metamaneuver system for Tome of Battle, I'd say make its own set of metamaneuvers that add other things, rather than just amplifying damage output. Maximize and Empower aren't really that interesting, after all.

An example set might be:

Deceptive Maneuver
This maneuver now targets Will saves instead of whatever save it previously targetted. Lose 3 other readied maneuvers.

Chain Combo
Declare when using this maneuver what maneuver you will use against the target next round. If you use the declared maneuver, your initiator level is considered 2 higher. Lose 1 other readied maneuver.

Timed Maneuver
As an immediate action, you may decide any time during the next round when the affects of your strike resolve. Lose 1 other readied maneuver.

Mundane Maneuver
Apply to a maneuver that is supernatural. This maneuver is now executed in a mundane manner and is not subject to SR or antimagic. Lose 4 other readied maneuvers.

[Sgt. Cookie]

@NichG: That looks like a good way to do them, trade in maneuvers for special effects to others.

Personally though, I would also add in the "Level increase" so that you don't stack loads of effects into one maneuver, or even Meta high level maneuvers.

For example:

For Deceptive Maneuver, that counts as a maneuver two levels higher.

Chain and Timed maneuver, those both count as a maneuver one level higher.

Mundane Maneuver counts as a maneuver five levels higher.


Join me in the Homebrew thread to further develop this?

[Salanmander]

Metamagic itself always struck me as a brilliant idea to add versatility that instead tended to fall into the damage amplification rut. If you wanted to do a metamaneuver system for Tome of Battle, I'd say make its own set of metamaneuvers that add other things, rather than just amplifying damage output. Maximize and Empower aren't really that interesting, after all.

An example set might be:

Deceptive Maneuver
This maneuver now targets Will saves instead of whatever save it previously targetted. Lose 3 other readied maneuvers.

Chain Combo
Declare when using this maneuver what maneuver you will use against the target next round. If you use the declared maneuver, your initiator level is considered 2 higher. Lose 1 other readied maneuver.

Timed Maneuver
As an immediate action, you may decide any time during the next round when the affects of your strike resolve. Lose 1 other readied maneuver.

Mundane Maneuver
Apply to a maneuver that is supernatural. This maneuver is now executed in a mundane manner and is not subject to SR or antimagic. Lose 4 other readied maneuvers.


I like the idea of creating specific metamaneuvers, but I still think it's a good idea to make it such that you can't apply them easily to your best maneuvers. A key part of the appeal of metamagic is that it keeps low level spells viable and interesting late in the game.

[eggs]

Metamagic itself always struck me as a brilliant idea to add versatility that instead tended to fall into the damage amplification rut. If you wanted to do a metamaneuver system for Tome of Battle, I'd say make its own set of metamaneuvers that add other things, rather than just amplifying damage output. Maximize and Empower aren't really that interesting, after all.
I'd agree with that, but I'd hesitate to take the "lose X readied maneuvers" approach, on account of the Crusader (where the cost turns into a second layer of benefit).

Combining the non-numeric meta-maneuver model with a new discipline stocked with Boost-based maneuver augments is an approach I could get into.

[ThiagoMartell]

Combining the non-numeric meta-maneuver model with a new discipline stocked with Boost-based maneuver augments is an approach I could get into.

Now this could work.
I still think finding a way to use metastuff that applies equally to Swordsage/Warblader/Crusader is going to be very hard. None of the proposed solutions work at all.
I think it can only work if it works differently for each class.

[dspeyer]

When last I dabbled in this idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182682), I put two restrictions on:
Metamanuevers cannot be used on high-level maneuvers. To be able to quicken a 3rd level maneuver, you need to be capable of 7th level.
Metamanuevers can fail (based on a martial lore check), and sometimes cost something if they do. If you fail to carry out a quickened strike, you waste your swift action trying.

[NichG]

I'd agree with that, but I'd hesitate to take the "lose X readied maneuvers" approach, on account of the Crusader (where the cost turns into a second layer of benefit).



Now this could work.
I still think finding a way to use metastuff that applies equally to Swordsage/Warblader/Crusader is going to be very hard. None of the proposed solutions work at all.
I think it can only work if it works differently for each class.

Hm, you're right. The Crusader specifically makes it weird.

One thought, though its kind of harsh, is that Metamaneuvers are something you charge up by spending actions during previous rounds. I'm going to steal something from fighting games here: lets say you have something called a 'Combo Pool'. You can spend a swift action to add one point to your Combo Pool. Whenever using an attack maneuver, you also add one point to your Combo Pool (but not for Boosts, Counters, etc).

Metamaneuvers must be paid for by expending points from the Combo Pool. So that means you can't just dump a metamaneuver on your best maneuver and spam it - there's more of a timing dynamic.

You could then have feats that let you start with 1-2 points in your Combo Pool, feats that let you gain Combo Pool points for different actions, etc.



Join me in the Homebrew thread to further develop this?

I didn't realize there was a thread for this. Link?

[Draz74]

Combo points purchased with swift actions make metamaneuvers too weak. Initiators' swift actions are already in high demand, especially if MIC equipment is also allowed.

I'd rather just see a combo point accumulate each round of combat automatically.

[ThiagoMartell]

Combo points purchased with swift actions make metamaneuvers too weak. Initiators' swift actions are already in high demand, especially if MIC equipment is also allowed.

I'd rather just see a combo point accumulate each round of combat automatically.

Maybe each successful hit - that's more videogame combos. You make a string of normal attacks then unleash the actual supercombo.

[Draz74]

Maybe each successful hit - that's more videogame combos. You make a string of normal attacks then unleash the actual supercombo.

Cute, but seems like dangerous synergy with Dancing/Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still, and Avalanche of Blades.

[ThiagoMartell]

Cute, but seems like dangerous synergy with Dancing/Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still, and Avalanche of Blades.

Well, a clause of "you can't use X to charge X" would basically solve that. Instead of using Time Stands Still to get combo points, people would use Time Stands Still as the supercombo.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I think "metamaneuvers" should be Boosts.

[NichG]

The swift action economy thing is why I said that any use of an attack or attack maneuver would get you a combo point, and that you could use other feats to improve how you gained combo points. The idea was to balance adding power greater than that of boosts to something that already has power with some kind of pacing mechanic.

So is the issue with this idea that getting one metamaneuver option costs a feat already, and its not good enough to be worth a feat to get some extra bonus every other round of the fight (or every round for a 1-pt metamaneuver). I guess to put it another way, you're getting Empower that applies to martial attacks for free every other round for the cost of a feat - is that worth it or not?

Lets say then you get one point per round, and one point if you make some form of attack - that'd let you basically use a 2-point metamaneuver every round reliably, or a 3-point one if you expend your swift action. I think that might be more than we actually want to permit...