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GoblinGilmartin
2012-06-12, 08:18 PM
So, i've been playing RPGs for a few years now, And i've been in a couple of games of VTM. I've run into a bunch of problems.

*The GMs start the characters off as complete noobs who get hand picked by the prince immediately and he'll leave them to face final death if they dont comply
*As far as the Metaplot goes, it makes no sense for anyone to do anything except for the malkavians, as they realize the impending doom and get to have a few last laughs at the rest of the world's expense
*everything the prince and his surrounding vampires do is to emass power. which is fine in and of itself, but again, world's gonna end, and your power will be all for nothing
*the factions are divided up into lawful douchebag and neutral a-hole with no middle ground. The GMs ran the Camarilla in such a way that i almost wanted to run Sabbat, just so I could be a little more independant
*Also, the GMs put too much into the NPCs, and didnt give the players enough room.

Maybe I'm too opinionated, maybe i'd be a better DM than a player, but i'd like my character in a system called the STORYTELLER system to be a little more than the slave to unarguable politics.

Arbane
2012-06-12, 08:26 PM
Maybe I'm too opinionated, maybe i'd be a better DM than a player, but i'd like my character in a system called the STORYTELLER system to be a little more than the slave to unarguable politics.

That's why it's called 'storyteller'. The GM is telling a story, and you are there to SIT DOWN AND LISTEN TO IT. :smallfrown:

Yeah, railroading and uberNPCs seem to be big problems in WoD games.

TheCountAlucard
2012-06-12, 08:27 PM
Maybe I'm too opinionated, maybe i'd be a better DM than a player, but i'd like my character in a system called the STORYTELLER system to be a little more than the slave to unarguable politics.Hence why I now prefer VtR.

Asking, "Why can no one run a decent game of VtM?" is like asking, "Why can no one build a decent bridge out of marshmallows." :smallamused:

Narren
2012-06-12, 09:13 PM
So, i've been playing RPGs for a few years now, And i've been in a couple of games of VTM. I've run into a bunch of problems.

*The GMs start the characters off as complete noobs who get hand picked by the prince immediately and he'll leave them to face final death if they dont comply
That's about as cliche as starting a bunch of adventurers in a tavern while "looking for adventure." It's also a lot more rail-roady.


*As far as the Metaplot goes, it makes no sense for anyone to do anything except for the malkavians, as they realize the impending doom and get to have a few last laughs at the rest of the world's expense
*everything the prince and his surrounding vampires do is to emass power. which is fine in and of itself, but again, world's gonna end, and your power will be all for nothing
Who says the world is ending? And even if someone is saying it, why would you believe them? You don't have to be a slave to the metaplot, it's just a tool like anything else.

And even if you thought it COULD be true, why bother shutting yourself off? What if you're wrong? You may as well keep on moving like everything is normal.


*the factions are divided up into lawful douchebag and neutral a-hole with no middle ground. The GMs ran the Camarilla in such a way that i almost wanted to run Sabbat, just so I could be a little more independant
Yeah, that one is hard to argue. The Camarilly tend to be stifling and the Sabbat is a bit too crazy. Like I said, you can change the metaplot, but those two institutions are a lot more ingrained into the setting (and the players minds) than "the world is going to end soon."


*Also, the GMs put too much into the NPCs, and didnt give the players enough room.
I've seen that, but it's really just a problem of a bad GM. Every system has those.


Maybe I'm too opinionated, maybe i'd be a better DM than a player, but i'd like my character in a system called the STORYTELLER system to be a little more than the slave to unarguable politics.
I've played in plenty of good VtM games, and run a few that I thought were enjoyable. Sounds like you've just had some bad experiences.

Blackknife
2012-06-13, 08:51 AM
That is why when I ran Requiem (which suffers from a lot of the same problems you bring up) I actually made it all about fighting against the very idea of the Danse Macabre. Having the vampire characters ask why they do what they do leads them to some interesting conclusions, and even more interesting actions when they figure out that they can do something else if they so choose. It also helps to not introduce higher echelons of the power structure right away. What is really cool is when you get a Hero to basically follow a variation of the "did you just punch out Cthulu?" trope, and actually stop the end of the world, lay the smackdown on the prince, and bust the camarilla. Fun stuff.

Oracle_Hunter
2012-06-13, 09:33 AM
Uh, sounds like you have a problem with the GM. System works fine, as far as it goes.

The metaplot is a real problem, but it is one that can be Rule Zero'd since, canonically, anything you've read about it in books is conjecture.

- Vampires work on amassing power because they don't believe the world is about to end.

- Different scholars have different opinions on how the Apocalypse is going to go down. Some think they can stop it, alter it, or use it to their advantage.

IMHO, the biggest problem with VtM is the larger WoD (i.e. Mages!) and the Morality Subsystems -- it is far too easy to lose Humanity and the other Paths are much easier to follow and have no downside to following them.

Need_A_Life
2012-06-13, 09:39 AM
The GMs start the characters off as complete noobs who get hand picked by the prince immediatelyDepending on the circumstances, I can see that happening.
In my old campaign, when the Camarilla was in a (losing) war with the Sabbat and one of my players insisted that he wanted to play a Lasombra antitribu ( :smallyuk: ), who had just arrived in this war-torn city and "totally wanted to be Camarilla," he was met with plenty of hostility.

As a rule, though? Nah, having them deal with the scum of the earth first and learned to appreciate the crapsack world they are in and then meet a century-old Prince, who clearly feels they should be honoured that he's bothering to tear them a new one for endangering the Masquerade (which they will do eventually) and demanding that they serve some of his favoured servants as penance...
Now, that's fun.

(The greatest thing about running Vampire is seeing your players sweat.)


As far as the Metaplot goes, it makes no sense for anyone to do anything except for the malkavians, as they realize the impending doom and get to have a few last laughs at the rest of the world's expense
Which one? The Gehenna one?
Usually in a Gehenna-scenario, everyone will be aware of it. In a non-Gehenna scenario, the meta-plot doesn't tend to crop up much... except, maybe if you go looking for "Goratrix" or similar :smalltongue:


the factions are divided up into lawful douchebag and neutral a-holeUhm, yeah?
The Camarilla are lawful a-holes, the Anarchs are neutral douchebags and the Sabbat are tragicomically stupid.
That's pretty much the setting. Competence or PR haven't ever been the strength of any of the sects. That honour belongs to individuals... and likable people are few, far between and supremely dangerous.


Also, the GMs put too much into the NPCs, and didnt give the players enough room.Not understood?


Maybe i'd be a better DM than a player
Run a game. See if you like it.
The whole reason I started GMing was because no one ran games in the exact style I wanted. So, I finally grew a pair and decided that the game would never come magically out of nowhere, but that I could make it happen, even if I ended up on the other side of the screen.

Tyndmyr
2012-06-13, 09:45 AM
That's why it's called 'storyteller'. The GM is telling a story, and you are there to SIT DOWN AND LISTEN TO IT. :smallfrown:

Yeah, railroading and uberNPCs seem to be big problems in WoD games.

That's a big problem in many systems that over-emphasize the story, and the DM's role in it.

There's nothing wrong with story at all. However, EVERYONE should be contributing to the story, not just listening.

comicshorse
2012-06-13, 11:07 AM
They can you just obviously haven't met them yet

prufock
2012-06-13, 01:16 PM
Maybe you simply aren't a fan of the setting. I'm certainly not.

Engine
2012-06-13, 02:36 PM
So, i've been playing RPGs for a few years now, And i've been in a couple of games of VTM. I've run into a bunch of problems.

Could happen, let's see...


*The GMs start the characters off as complete noobs who get hand picked by the prince immediately and he'll leave them to face final death if they dont comply

Unfortunately this is one of the easiest way to create a coterie in a setting where most of the characters will be selfish and individualistic. I'm not saying it's a good way. But I could understand why one should use this way.


*As far as the Metaplot goes, it makes no sense for anyone to do anything except for the malkavians, as they realize the impending doom and get to have a few last laughs at the rest of the world's expense

Well, I feel this is mostly a problem of yours. There are rumors that the world will end this year because of some Maya prophecy, why are you posting here? Why going to work, to school, why even bother to play?
If you're doing these things because you feel this doom prophecy is false, why you can't apply the same reasoning for your character? She doesn't believe the Gehenna is real.
Another way is to have a character that tries to survive the Gehenna. Well, maybe it wouldn't work, but your character could at least give it a try.


*everything the prince and his surrounding vampires do is to emass power. which is fine in and of itself, but again, world's gonna end, and your power will be all for nothing

You know this. The Prince maybe doesn't know that.


*the factions are divided up into lawful douchebag and neutral a-hole with no middle ground. The GMs ran the Camarilla in such a way that i almost wanted to run Sabbat, just so I could be a little more independant

Well, I have no idea how your storyteller runs things. But, well, Camarilla is about politics, and strange and bizarre rules, and how to screw these rules without being caught.


*Also, the GMs put too much into the NPCs, and didnt give the players enough room.

Heh. Try to talk with your storyteller, then.


Maybe I'm too opinionated, maybe i'd be a better DM than a player, but i'd like my character in a system called the STORYTELLER system to be a little more than the slave to unarguable politics.

Well, give it a try.:smallbiggrin:

valadil
2012-06-13, 02:59 PM
*the factions are divided up into lawful douchebag and neutral a-hole with no middle ground. The GMs ran the Camarilla in such a way that i almost wanted to run Sabbat, just so I could be a little more independant


I've seen this sort of complaint a lot with WoD, although usually it's of the form "there are only 9 characters I can play in this system." I don't buy it. Even if the groups are as cookie cutter as you make it, your character doesn't have to be. What your character has to do is try to fit in or reject the groups that exist in game. Don't just play a Sabbat - play someone who thinks the Camarilla have it right, but can't actually stand working with them so he goes Sabbat after a couple months of struggling to be Camarilla.

Tyndmyr
2012-06-13, 03:12 PM
I've seen this sort of complaint a lot with WoD, although usually it's of the form "there are only 9 characters I can play in this system." I don't buy it. Even if the groups are as cookie cutter as you make it, your character doesn't have to be. What your character has to do is try to fit in or reject the groups that exist in game. Don't just play a Sabbat - play someone who thinks the Camarilla have it right, but can't actually stand working with them so he goes Sabbat after a couple months of struggling to be Camarilla.

It's possible, sure, but the problem is, the existing templates shape expectations. So, you tend to get certain types of games with certain steriotypical chars from certain systems.

For example, "hating magic" is not something that a D&D barbarian needs to do, but it's ridiculously common. Hell, they need not be unintelligent, either, but an intelligent barbarian is remarkably rare.

And the further you go from those steriotypes, the more trouble you'll have fitting into most games.

Terraoblivion
2012-06-13, 03:43 PM
Not to mention that the further you go from the stereotypes, the less likely you were to be embraced in the first place and it becomes vastly more likely that it was illegally and the prince has you killed because your existence violates his authority. Then after that, you'll have all your douchebag superiors in your clan who tries to make you conform. And that's before the mechanics heavily tries to push you in a certain direction. It's possible to avoid, of course, but I do find that VtM is the game that tries the hardest to force the archetypes of various splats on you.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-06-13, 04:17 PM
Asking, "Why can no one run a decent game of VtM?" is like asking, "Why can no one build a decent bridge out of marshmallows." :smallamused:

You can. It just takes a lot of marshmallows, and it has to be over some ditch or something that's solid land and people don't go through, and you have to squish it down really good (probably melt them all together by heating them over an industrial-sized fire), and it's still harder than just filling it in with dirt or putting a couple planks across it (because let's face it, anything a gigantic mass of marshmallow goo can hold, a couple planks can hold). But if you're a real man, you do things the hard way!

...Oh wait. A DECENT bridge.

GoblinGilmartin
2012-06-13, 04:36 PM
Just wanted to make a few clarifications.

It was my thoughts that if anyone, player or character looked around them, they would see that ALL the different groups surrounding them have some sort of "soon the world will end" thing, heck, the werewolf game is called Werewolf the APOCALYPSE. If a Vampire isnt smart enough to realize that something has the whole world spooked, how'd he get to be a prince in the first place?

i guess one of the problems i see is that based on a lot of the source material, the gehenna seems canon. I get it if the DM took a game and added a save the world thing, because that seems more like a failure than a certainty.

btw, If i want to absorb a story, i'll read a book or watch a movie. if i want to make a story, i'll sit around with some people and play an RPG.

It just bugs me to see a game that has so much potential if handled the right way get bogged down so easily.

And IMHO, not every vampire who doesnt struggle to maintain his humanity is evil. I like the idea that the beast can be worked with, without having to succumb to it. Alot of the alt paths even said that you could control the beast through familiarity. For anyone who saw the Avengers *spoilers*

that bit with banner being able to use the hulk for positive purposes because he has excepted it as a part of himself, and doesnt need to keep it wrestled down at all times and can now change freely without pain or loss of self, that's what i think vampire can be like.

Am I making sense? plz, ask any questions that could clarify.

OH, and also? i did have that one idea, where the characters start out taking orders from a baron of seattle (a big russian vampire who controls the shipping yards) rather than the prince, in order to give them a sense of scale.

Blackknife
2012-06-13, 04:48 PM
that bit with banner being able to use the hulk for positive purposes because he has excepted it as a part of himself, and doesnt need to keep it wrestled down at all times and can now change freely without pain or loss of self, that's what i think vampire can be like.

Am I making sense? plz, ask any questions that could clarify.

"When fighting dragons, one must take care not to become a dragon, and when you cast out your demon, take care that you do not cast out the greatest part of yourself." Friedrich Nietzsche.

This gets into that classic scourge of god archetype, at which point the character starts behaving much more like the classic heroes in old myths. Interestingly enough the Lancea Sanctum of Requiem is perfect for that. It's a cool character concept and definitely something work exploring if you want to go explore those ideas through storytelling.

Rallicus
2012-06-13, 06:03 PM
Sounds like a bunch of GMs trying to replicate the Bloodlines video game...

I could be totally off base here, as I've never played a WoD game, but reading your complaints makes it seem that way.

Is the system really like that?

GoblinGilmartin
2012-06-13, 06:20 PM
Actually, I found Bloodlines to be pretty good. The characters were interesting and the dialog choices engaging. It really only felt like what i'm complaining about when laCroix is on screen. He's just a bummer....Everything else in the game gave you the feel of a very detailed alternate universe. The deals you could make behind people's backs, the...whatever.....It was really good.

What was good about Bloodlines is that you are in fact a lone agent. You have one on one conversations with people. In groups of four or five, you have everyone clamoring at once trying to squeeze as much as you can out of an npc, and they become checkpoints rather than characters. the Bloodlines experience, however nice it was, is not for group play.

Rallicus
2012-06-13, 07:15 PM
Actually, I found Bloodlines to be pretty good.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I found Bloodlines to be awesome, it's actually one of my favorite computer games despite the plethora of glitches and lack of real difficulty.

I was more so referring to the fact that your campaigns seem to play out exactly how the game did. You're saved by a Prince, forced to work for him to expand his power, everything you do is for naught anyway since the world is going to end, and the NPCs control most of what players do (at least that's what I got from your last complaint).

Since I never played WoD, I wasn't sure if this was expected to be done in games or if it was the equivalent of meeting up in a tavern and later working for a king in DnD.

Engine
2012-06-13, 07:19 PM
It was my thoughts that if anyone, player or character looked around them, they would see that ALL the different groups surrounding them have some sort of "soon the world will end" thing, heck, the werewolf game is called Werewolf the APOCALYPSE. If a Vampire isnt smart enough to realize that something has the whole world spooked, how'd he get to be a prince in the first place?

I feel that you're metagaming a bit. Werewolves and vampires aren't friends, so it's not that they share a lot of their knowledge. Your character doesn't have to know for sure that they're preparing for the doomsday.


i guess one of the problems i see is that based on a lot of the source material, the gehenna seems canon. I get it if the DM took a game and added a save the world thing, because that seems more like a failure than a certainty.

I still feel you're metagaming about it. Reading the clanbooks, where vampires talk "directly" to a reader, it seems to me that most vampires either do not believe the Gehenna will take place, or that their Clans have a special plan about it. So it's not entirely unreasonable that your character either doesn't care about these madman prophecies or she thinks she could survive the Apocalypse. And I know I'm the one who's metagaming now, but you could read the Gehenna book: there are ways to survive the Gehenna. At least for some vampires, of course.


btw, If i want to absorb a story, i'll read a book or watch a movie. if i want to make a story, i'll sit around with some people and play an RPG.

Sure, but you do not have to stick with the metaplot. The Gehenna could remain just a myth. It's up to your storyteller. By the way, in all my previous games of V:tM, I never truly played the Gehenna. Sure, sometimes my character heard a rumor, but for the most part it was distant, and with no effect on the actual play.


And IMHO, not every vampire who doesnt struggle to maintain his humanity is evil. I like the idea that the beast can be worked with, without having to succumb to it. Alot of the alt paths even said that you could control the beast through familiarity. For anyone who saw the Avengers *spoilers*

that bit with banner being able to use the hulk for positive purposes because he has excepted it as a part of himself, and doesnt need to keep it wrestled down at all times and can now change freely without pain or loss of self, that's what i think vampire can be like.

I disagree. Hulk is a superhero. Avengers is a superheroes' movie. V:tM is a game about damned soul, not heroes. Of course you could play the game as you like, but that's your call: just because other prefers to stick with some more canonical interpretation of the setting they're not doing it wrong.


OH, and also? i did have that one idea, where the characters start out taking orders from a baron of seattle (a big russian vampire who controls the shipping yards) rather than the prince, in order to give them a sense of scale.

It could be nice, but again: you should consider the vampires are, for the most part, selfish and individualistic. You have to give them good reasons to work together. I'm having difficulties working with a mostly good\neutral party in the PF campaing I'm actually playing because of selfish behaviours, in V:tM this kind of behaviour is expected.

GoblinGilmartin
2012-06-13, 07:28 PM
It's hard not to metagame when there is a metaPLOT

I wasnt just refering to the werewolves. the lost, the mages, and them all have various shades of this. Nosferatu keep enough tabs on people to be up to date. You arent a good vampire prince unless you have at least one nosferatu on staff.

yeah, maybe i'm sticking too hard to the metaplot, but it was put there for a reason.

I'd think that if i were a vampire,(i'm really trying not to think too hard on that) i'd use the time i was given to improve myself. I suppose peer pressure is a huge factor, but I just graduated high school, and the last thing i want to do to relax is deal with imaginary jerks who are shallow and controlling and clique-ish. I suppose that would make it sound as if i didnt like the game, but like i said, it has serious potential. I remember once reading about someone who wanted to run a game that was sort of like a vampire version of Clerks. I've only seen the game taken in one or two directions by inexperienced GMs.

Actually, how about this. If anyone wants to, I'd like to host a few sessions of VtM over skype, maybe maptools or openrpg if necessary... I'll try to explain that way what it is i look for. Any takers? three to five people would be nice.

although maybe that's the reason the game didnt work out, it was over skype. I hate the dead spaces when you are dealing with a group, i get distracted....

Aron Times
2012-06-13, 10:36 PM
nWoD has no metaplot and is more balanced than the oWoD when it comes to crossovers. In one game, vampires and werewolves might be mortal enemies, while in another, they might be working together against the oppressive mages. In a Vampire game, clan might be more important than covenant, while in another, it takes a back seat to the latter.

Also, the Blood Potency mechanic, which replaces Generation, keeps powerful vampires from holding on to their power forever, and allows younger vampires to grow in power over time, as opposed to the Generation mechanic where your character is stuck at a certain step save through diablerie.

Basically, every 50 years, a vampire's BP increases by 1. BP 1 is roughly equal to 13th generation, while BP 2 = 12th generation, and so on. Every 25 years spent in torpor decreases BP by 1. Elders need to go into torpor because at higher BP (specifically, BP 7), they can only feed on other vampires. Elders have to choose between weakening themselves or be blood bound to a younger vampire so they can stay active. Most elders choose to sleep and let the younger vampires take over.

Once those vampires reach BP 7 themselves, they go to sleep and pass on the power to the lower BP vampires, who might even be ancients recently awakened from torpor.

The highest safe BP (i.e. can still feed on humans) is BP 6, which is roughly equal to 7th generation. Note that BP does not scale directly with generation on a 1:1 basis, in case you thought my math was wrong.

Narren
2012-06-13, 11:41 PM
It's possible, sure, but the problem is, the existing templates shape expectations. So, you tend to get certain types of games with certain steriotypical chars from certain systems.

For example, "hating magic" is not something that a D&D barbarian needs to do, but it's ridiculously common. Hell, they need not be unintelligent, either, but an intelligent barbarian is remarkably rare.

And the further you go from those steriotypes, the more trouble you'll have fitting into most games.

I disagree. At least in my experience, going against the grain has never been a problem in the game. A problem in the game-world perhaps (and perhaps that's what you meant), but that's generally what the player is going for when they go against the mold.

Titomancer
2012-06-14, 01:19 AM
Someone once summed up V:TM (cam, anyway) quite nicely. "The eternal quest to dump a milkshake on your enemy's head in the middle of lunch"

I think that sums up the inter-politics of the cam. I should point out, I'm not much of a fan of it, but comparing the shallow, cliquish, self-absorbed walking corpses of ampires to the shallow, cliquish, self-absorbed walking corpses of High Schoolers is kinda dead on in that setting.

Let me be clear, I liked V:TM, early on in its publishing. Later on, as the publishers poured more and more over-arching, world-spanning conspiracies and metaplot, it got crap. it stopped being about the characters. My advice? Read the main book, and ignore any plot items that don't relate specifically to character (ie, bloodlines, merits, flaws, example archetypes) in any other books. Basically, what happened was that a game that was about the story of a band of characters became a story of a set world in which the characters happened to be in, but ultimately couldnt do anything about it. The publishers fell in to the classic GM boner of making the players insignificant. Rail-roading, uber-NPCs, the game itself fell victim to these. So, just ignore them. Rule Zero. Make the game about the characters. Just simply ignore that other stuff.

So some whacknut biker with hairy palms, and Casper at the abandoned sanitarium say the world's going to end. So what? Would you listen to every bum on the street with a sandwich board saying the end is nigh? No. So the main book says there's a rumor of Gehenna. So what? Who says it's talked about among the "populace"? I've played V:TM for entirely too long, and the amount of times that Gehenna popped up in an IC conversation I can count on one hand.

Just remember, V:TM is a game about the characters. Just because the writer's forgot that, doesn't mean you have to.


I realize this didn't actually help, but at least it lets you know you aren't alone in your frustration, and that there are (I promise) good V:TM games out there, but they are very hard to come by. When you find one though, you'll be recounting stories from that game for decades. Seriously, whenever my friends and I bring up gaming stories, they always end up going to WoD stories, as we all have several, and they're great.

Driderman
2012-06-14, 04:40 AM
Firstly, the reason that plenty of Kindred in the Camarilla generally don't believe in Gehenna is because the official party line of the Camarilla is that there's no such thing as Gehenna.
Sure, the individuals of polite vampire society might take all sorts of precautions or investigate the phenomenon but to get caught actually implying that you believe in the end of the world would be a serious social faux pas that might take you decades or even centuries to live down.

The reason why the Camarilla doesn't believe in Gehenna is actually quite simple: It gets a lot harder to control your young ones if they think the world is going to end anyway.
Why would you bother obeying an ******* Prince if the end of the world is just around the corner anyway? Might as well go crazy, like the Sabbat does.

Which leads to the second part of why the Camarilla doesn't believe in Gehenna: The Camarilla is basically a product of the first Anarch Uprising, back in the middle ages. These Anarchs rose up, slew their sires and in time formed what is today the Sabbat. In response to this, others formed what became the Camarilla. The Sabbat believes in Gehenna, the Camarilla doesn't. 500-600 years down the line, in modern times, it's somewhat hard to suddenly say "Hey, we were wrong and our number 1 enemy is actually right".
Basically, believing in Gehenna is showing Sabbat leanings. You do not want to do that in Camarilla turf.

Also, even if you assume the metaplot is true and that the powers that be believe there's a reckoning coming, it's shrouded in so much conjecture and mystery. As far as I remember its assumed that possibly Caine will return and gobble up all the vampires, or that the Antediluvians will do so, but nobody knows for sure. At any rate, the Beast is nothing if not a survivor so most of these ancients who suspect Gehenna is coming is working hard to make sure its not their ass on the line when it comes.
LaCroix from Vampire: Bloodlines is a great example of this actually, assuming he knows more than he lets on to (which elder vampires always do), as he plans to diablerize one of said antediluvians and thereby not be a victim of Gehenna.
Another good example is Ruthven Lambach, one of the original Anarchs who knows a horrible truth about the Uprising and Lugoj, the Tzimisce who diablerized the Tzimisce antediluvian. He's sat on that secret for several centuries because he's so very afraid for his own unlife and because he hopes that by keeping it, he might survive the Gehenna.

In short, even kindred who believe in Gehenna will jockey for position and power because they all expect to be the one who survives it and want to be in a position of power when it comes.

As for running Vampire: The Masquerade games, on a microscale (citywide) my personal advice would be to watch a lot of gangster movies and series and then apply that mode of business and those switching loyalties to the immortals of the night.
The thing to remember about the Kindred is that most of the elder ones don't really believe in much of anything, other than power, the Jihad (eternal vampire politicking) and surviving. Any pretentions to a higher moral standard, be it humanity or a political club like the Camarilla, is usually a means to an end.

Blackknife
2012-06-14, 06:27 AM
nWoD has no metaplot and is more balanced than the oWoD when it comes to crossovers. In one game, vampires and werewolves might be mortal enemies, while in another, they might be working together against the oppressive mages. In a Vampire game, clan might be more important than covenant, while in another, it takes a back seat to the latter.

Also, the Blood Potency mechanic, which replaces Generation, keeps powerful vampires from holding on to their power forever, and allows younger vampires to grow in power over time, as opposed to the Generation mechanic where your character is stuck at a certain step save through diablerie.

Basically, every 50 years, a vampire's BP increases by 1. BP 1 is roughly equal to 13th generation, while BP 2 = 12th generation, and so on. Every 25 years spent in torpor decreases BP by 1. Elders need to go into torpor because at higher BP (specifically, BP 7), they can only feed on other vampires. Elders have to choose between weakening themselves or be blood bound to a younger vampire so they can stay active. Most elders choose to sleep and let the younger vampires take over.

Once those vampires reach BP 7 themselves, they go to sleep and pass on the power to the lower BP vampires, who might even be ancients recently awakened from torpor.

The highest safe BP (i.e. can still feed on humans) is BP 6, which is roughly equal to 7th generation. Note that BP does not scale directly with generation on a 1:1 basis, in case you thought my math was wrong.

The cool thing is there is all kinds of ways around having to feed from other vampires, namely the blood sorcery tricks of the Sanctum, Circle, and Ordo Dracul. For the vinculum to actually take hold the drinker has to roll something-or-other+Blood potency, and elders are pretty good at that, so some just rely on their strong blood to to not be vinculumed. I prefer the Ordo Dracul method of second teir coil of blood myself, feed from anything no matter the blood potency. I do think the BP system is much more balanced than the generation system though.

Tyndmyr
2012-06-14, 08:28 AM
I disagree. At least in my experience, going against the grain has never been a problem in the game. A problem in the game-world perhaps (and perhaps that's what you meant), but that's generally what the player is going for when they go against the mold.

It's not that it's impossible, but that the system encourages expected play in a myriad of ways, while discouraging other options.

Imagine playing a barbarian who is wise, and seeks to create alliances with others to gain power. This is thematically not a problem, but it's not tremendously encouraged by D&D. Realistically, a barbarian ends up being a guy with a big weapon who ends up stabbing the hell out of things in a dungeon nine times out of ten.

DragonclawExia
2012-06-21, 10:57 AM
In my experience, in DnD, people WILL accept an Intelligient Barbarian as plausible or even interesting. They don't really care that much themselves, since the barbarian doesn't directly affect their own character at all.

There's no REAL reason not to, since DnD at it's core is still open to individual expression. The problem is people might get over-competitive, either the players or the DM, but that's a story for another time. It was created originally as a Game, and that still shows.



In my...honestly, minimal but memorable attempts at playing oWoD, it's abit different. It was impossible to escape the Metaplot. If the guys were serious in playing it, they know all about the metaplot, and are intent on doing it their way.

There are in-story reasons for a Tmizcse(can't ever spill it, but whatever) to NEVER even be associated with anything even remotely related to Camarilla. The politic groups are VERY divided and all "Archetypes" are heavily ingrained to one or the other.

If they were just trying it out like me, they will get absorbed by the bigger forces at play.

It's impossible to escape the metaplot. It defines the oWoD more then anything I can imagine. If they were playing oWoD, it's because they still cling to a metaplot almost a decade old, and have unfinished business with it.


You can't ignore the Metaplot. Rule Zero does not apply, because the main reason people still roleplay VtM is because of it's metaplot. Without it, there's no real reason not to just play VtR or even a modified point system or class system.

The Metaplot IS VtM.

kyoryu
2012-06-21, 12:31 PM
The point about thinking about the Cam like you would a gangster movie is a good one.

Yeah, there's rules. Yeah, there's consequences. But there's gotta be somebody to apply those consequences, and that somebody has their own motivations.

Players break some Law? The Prince sends somebody after them? Okay, fine. Who's he sending, and what's their motivation to do so? Who might benefit from the players' actions that wants to see them keep going? Who might like to see the players thumb their nose at the Prince, just to weaken his position?

The Cam isn't an army. It's a collection of inherently selfish beings that have Laws to keep them from immediately exploding and taking everything down with them. Players are more likely to be a destabilizing element that somebody should take advantage of (directly or not) rather than new recruits to be beaten into submission.

Indon
2012-06-21, 01:33 PM
Well, the vampire game expects that the group is a series of barely-not-psychopaths operating in a politically complicated, backstab-rich environment. That doesn't promote fun-facilitating player behavior in a tabletop environment.

For instance, you have that one guy in the group that's secretly planning on backstabbing his own party. Sometimes fun, generally not. He's ultimately doing what vampires are often _expected_ to do in the game, however, so it's hard to call him on it.

Or the players start bickering with each other. Vampire society is oriented around bullying and intimidation of the weak by the strong, but you want the players to be about equal in power, so that's not likely to work and arguments are surprisingly likely to break out in inter-party fights (Werewolf also has this problem, to a lesser degree and for slightly different reasons).

Finally, it's easier to get heroic types to play well with others and behave predictably - when you give a hero the opportunity for heroism, they do it. However, you have to play to a non-hero's individual motives to get them to do something... which can get pretty railroady.

In summary, Vampire the Masquerade has a strong emphasis on evil or almost-evil characters and when the players make characters appropriately it's going to be hard to run a cohesive and fun game for them.

Ironically, you could argue that these same reasons help make V:tM a rich game for LARPing - there's a lot of room for many different players working at cross-purposes.

Aron Times
2012-06-21, 02:59 PM
OP, I PM'd a link to a decent Masquerade game to you, as well as a decent Requiem game. Both are on rpol.net, which has built-in support for the Storyteller/Storytelling system. As the Playground is a mostly-D&D-centric site, it's kind of inconvenient at times to run non-D&D games here (what usually happens is that people use roll instead of rollv when rolling dice pools, necessitating another post).

Driderman
2012-06-22, 06:07 AM
The point about thinking about the Cam like you would a gangster movie is a good one.

Yeah, there's rules. Yeah, there's consequences. But there's gotta be somebody to apply those consequences, and that somebody has their own motivations.

Players break some Law? The Prince sends somebody after them? Okay, fine. Who's he sending, and what's their motivation to do so? Who might benefit from the players' actions that wants to see them keep going? Who might like to see the players thumb their nose at the Prince, just to weaken his position?

The Cam isn't an army. It's a collection of inherently selfish beings that have Laws to keep them from immediately exploding and taking everything down with them. Players are more likely to be a destabilizing element that somebody should take advantage of (directly or not) rather than new recruits to be beaten into submission.

Well any unsure Prince might easily have the players beaten into submission but then I guess its only a matter of time before somebody takes advantage of the animosity it'll undoubtedly create for their own purposes, whatever they are :)
Also, I'd think the only time a Prince has someone "beaten into submission" is if he's particularily barbaric or if the players are total nobodies (clanless or something similiar). After all, even if you're the Prince its not good form to go around beating up other peoples childer. You have their Sire do it themselves and then you take advantage of the growing distance between Sire and Childe ;)

Indon, I think it depends very much on your playstyle. If you play V:tM with the same approach as you play D&D, you're going to have a problem soon enough as the Kindred aren't really supposed to, or interested in, hanging around each other 24/7 doing deeds for their common interest other than in special circumstances (really, the closest thing to a D&D party in V:tM is probably a Sabbat pack :)).
On the other hand, if you play with the approach that vampires can and will fight and backstab each other and thats okay interparty as well, and that even a tightly knit vampire coterie is unlikely to hang around each other 24/7 because they have other interests and activities as well, its going to go a lot better.
As an example, currently I'm playing Transylvania Chronicles with four other players and we all have our own domains, but the same liege lord. Sometimes (when we play) our liege lord requires our services at the same time and we work together to complete our goals, but during our downtimes we might easily work against each others interests and fight for control of the same resources or what not.
For example, our last downtime had my character, an old crusader lord with military power, take over the domain of one of the other characters since that character wasn't home to defend his claim. Even if it was for the greater good, he's not particularily pleased that he'spretty much Prince in name only now since he can't do much about me. Also, since my character is the core of the defense against the enemy, being outspoken about his annoyance at my presence in his domain (and appropriation of his resources) would likely be frowned upon by both the rest of the Transylvian lords and our liege lord. I'm guessing he's probably going to kill one of my retainers out of petty spite one of these days, since he doesn't really have any other options of retribution right now :D
Oh yeah, to prevent scenes where all but one player isn't involved, we thought up a system where retainers, allies and contacts (and any other background reasonably represented by this) are written down on an indexcard with a few stats and a short description and other players are then in charge of playing these during scenes, when appropriate. This has the dual benefits of easing the Storytellers work and having players involved even if their characters aren't.

On the point of player power balance, I don't necessarily feel that players need to be equal in power, but if you play campaigns with unequal power-level you have to be sure your players can handle not being the winner all the time. It really depends on player mentality, some people identify strongly with their character and want to be a beautiful unique snowflake that can never do wrong all the time and some people are more interested in telling a story about a character and don't mind when said character ****s up or "loses".
Again, an example: We had a multi-group campaign going called City of Sin, set in a fictitious City in the US heavily inspired by The Crow with a dash of Everythings Supernatural. In short, typical V:tM city :D
Anyway, I played a Nosferatu elder who through a series of misadventures happened upon an Ancient Chinese Secret (of Blood) and became really powerful and a bit (more) nuts. We had maybe 20 players in that campaign and most of them were terrified of my character since he was a real *******. I don't think he was ever in any physical confrontation but he was excellent at manipulating others, especially the younger Kindred. So generally, he was the Big Dog.
The Ventrue sheriff, however, knew far too much about my character but I obviously couldn't kill him, nor would I want to since he was an old ally, of sorts. So when it came to their relationship my character was most definitely the Little Dog since he had to keep the Ventrue appeased and he knew he really didn't have any other options.
I believe its very important to have several different sorts of power balances so a character might be very strong in some areas, but weak in others. That way, you don't end up with characters that dominate the game entirely (so long as the other players can figure out their weaknesses and exploit them of course).

CET
2012-06-22, 03:47 PM
You can't ignore the Metaplot. Rule Zero does not apply, because the main reason people still roleplay VtM is because of it's metaplot. Without it, there's no real reason not to just play VtR or even a modified point system or class system.

The Metaplot IS VtM.

This seems to be a common complaint . . . but I can't help but think that this has more to do with particular gamers than the game itself.

I've played many very enjoyable games of VtM that totally ignored the metaplot. Of course, they were spent a lot more time on investigative, covert-ops, or counter-intelligence work than on finding creative ways to be snarky to other PCs or exact mortifying social revenge on one of the GM's emo-goth mary sue avatars, so it's debatable whether or not they actually were VtM games . . .

Edit: There are other reasons to play oWOD - maybe you like the old Clans better, or prefer the old mechanics, or just never got around to buying all new splat books. I suppose they may not be common reasons though.

I can't say if WOD has more than its fair share of problem players/GMs, but those do tend to be a particular *sort* of problem (IMO), which might be what's riling the OP.

Aron Times
2012-06-22, 04:11 PM
I can't say if WOD has more than its fair share of problem players/GMs, but those do tend to be a particular *sort* of problem (IMO), which might be what's riling the OP.
WoD players are not necessarily more mature than D&D players. Back when White Wolf was in its pretentious "High Art" phase, a common positive stereotype about WoD players was that they were more "mature" than D&D players, possibly because they eschewed combat in favor of social maneuvering. In reality, players avoided combat in the oWoD because 1. It was highly lethal, with characters only having 7 HP maximum, and 2. It was incredibly clunky and took forever to resolve.

In fact, the books generally encouraged immature, passive-aggressive behavior not just towards NPCs, but to fellow coterie members as well. You'd think that a race of immortals would find better things to do than risk their long lifespans over minor slights, yet they were mostly portrayed like cliquish high school students.

The oWoD metaplot, while interesting to read about, is nowadays virtually synonymous with railroading and adversarial DMing. Each new splatbook introduced 6-dot and higher disciplines that are not normally available to PCs since you can't get them without diablerie, which is punishable by death in most factions and easy to detect. These elder disciplines gave off an impression of, "Look at how cool my NPCs are!"

End rant, before I get too pissed off and I become incoherent.

GoblinGilmartin
2012-06-22, 04:48 PM
So you can understand my concern with the DMs emphasis on NPCs.

I may end up bringing the hate down by saying this, When i played, i rolled malkavian both times. One not well thought out (a film director), one better thought out (a childish pop-idol type who was a combat sado-maso). To me as a player, like i think i said, the malkavians seem to have the best reasons to do anything.

Forgive me if i'm wrong in asking this, but do you have to want to be a primogen to become one? Because in one of the games, the gangrel primogen was based on tallahasse from ZOmbieland, and he very openly opposed the prince and his own position of power. and another was the toreador primogen, who was based on the phantom of the opera, isnt that a social-skills required position?

comicshorse
2012-06-22, 06:38 PM
Forgive me if i'm wrong in asking this, but do you have to want to be a primogen to become one? Because in one of the games, the gangrel primogen was based on tallahasse from ZOmbieland, and he very openly opposed the prince and his own position of power. and another was the toreador primogen, who was based on the phantom of the opera, isnt that a social-skills required position?

Not necassarilly, though if you actively don't want the job the rest of your clan are going to have a hard time forcing you to do it. And there is usually someone who does want the job who is going to be a more attractive prospect than trying to get a disintrested Vampire to perform a role he loathes.
But in a LA game the Gangrel Primogen hated the job, it was picked by his clan because he was old, powerful and smart, he did the job because he felt it was his duty to his clan.

Teln
2012-06-22, 09:25 PM
I remember reading an anecdote on this board about a year or so ago about a Malkavian PC who wound up as primogen because the Prince had declared the position vacant after the last guy had screwed up one too many times. Basically, the PC nominated himself as a joke, and won because nobody else entered, not even the incumbent!

Menteith
2012-06-22, 09:31 PM
I've run VtM a number of times, and the best instances where when we were not a part of the Camerilla; Followers of Set, Sabbat, Anarch, or even just unaligned, it's much easier to justify banding together against "the man". Just my experiences.

JohnnyCancer
2012-06-22, 11:56 PM
I played in a long running VtM game back around 2003-2004 that didn't have the "Prince forces you to do something,' beginning. And the metaplot was largely ignored (the setting was Miami which was a Sabbat city in the metaplot but played as a Cam city). With the exception of the surly Brujah who was on my Ventrue's payroll, our characters had befriended each other during gatherings at the Elysium. Eternity is easier to bear if you have friends after all.

We mostly pursued goals based on our characters backstories, assisting each other in those aims. Later on, there were more outside influences culminating in a failed attempt to stop the Sabbat from rolling in to town.

GolemsVoice
2012-06-23, 07:53 PM
Whiel I love the world of darkness in general, and Vampire too, I have encountered many of the problems you face myself.

One problem I see is that WW puts a LOT of emphasis on the world and it's story. The plot is already written, and everybody has his part. All of this could happen well without the players, there's no real place for them. This can mean that they are reduced to participants in a greater scheme, which, if doen right, is exactly what Vampire is about, but if done wrong, feels just like going from one cool NPC to the nest without ever knowing anything.
That's a second beef I have with Vampire, and it ties into the first. It's really a NPC's game most of the time. The true secrets and important positions are staffed by NPCs (of course) and if you want anything done, you either bring serious power or suck up to somebody who already has the answers by virtue of being written by WW. And there's little middleground. Unless you're powerful enough to have your way, you're somebody's errant boy. Again, this is just the feeling they want, a powerless chess piece moving by unseen agendas, but if done wrong, it get's tiresome and the players feel like whatever they do has zero influence on anything.

To summarize: WW, and many DMs I have the feeling, are massively in love with what they created. The fact that there are players in this game is a coincidence at best (you need somebody to LISTEn to your cool story), or a hindrance to good storytelling at worst.

The problem is that all these negative points I mentioned are intentional and very much part of the setting. I like that, but I think it's often overdone, and the line between darkness and personal horror and powerlessness for the sake of it is very thin.

EDIT: and yes, metaplot schmetaplot, the world ends exactly when the DM wishes it to end. It may not even end at all. And whiel there are much rumours flying around (and a few scenarios that outright confirm Gehenna) much of that isn't known to the grunts, and even the higher-ups only know half-truths and fragmentary prophecies, if that. So why focus on some crazy, likely fake mumbo-jumbo if you can be powerful NOW?

Driderman
2012-06-23, 08:04 PM
I guess my gaming environment might just have been different, but powerful NPCs were never really a problem for us. Our storytellers would either find some way to fit them into the story properly, ignore them completely or replace them with player character or other, less essentiel NPCs depending on what kind of story we were playing.
It might have something to do with European/American gaming mindset I guess; I'm told Americans, which is of course a generalization, have a different RP focus than us Europeans. Something about focusing more on rules and the "classic" D&D-party gameplay and generally being a bit more "in-the-box" if you will.

Siegel
2012-06-24, 11:11 AM
The german DSA community seems to differ. Slave like devotion to the metaplot...

GolemsVoice
2012-06-24, 11:51 AM
Really? I never noticed that. But thena gain I don't play much DSA anymore. Sadly.

Siegel
2012-06-24, 01:40 PM
Really? I never noticed that. But thena gain I don't play much DSA anymore. Sadly.

Bless you and welcome to the promised land

GolemsVoice
2012-06-24, 09:34 PM
Not to derail the thread, but DSA itself is cool I think. But as with many things, rabid fandom can ruin almost anything.

Jerthanis
2012-06-25, 11:19 AM
It was my thoughts that if anyone, player or character looked around them, they would see that ALL the different groups surrounding them have some sort of "soon the world will end" thing, heck, the werewolf game is called Werewolf the APOCALYPSE. If a Vampire isnt smart enough to realize that something has the whole world spooked, how'd he get to be a prince in the first place?

I would like to address this.

He doesn't believe it because he's seen it so many times before.

Take a look of what the Prince has lived through (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events)

See, every generation has its apocalyptic prophecy. We had May 20th of last year and December 21st or whatever of this year. The idea of the world going on after our death creeps humanity out. Those Vampires who are newly embraced bring their hangups with them and spread rumors of the end of the world encroaching. Sure, the Prince may believe that it's possible he's living in the world's final nights, but it doesn't feel any different than any of the times in the past it has been supposedly the final nights and he's still around. As they get older, more pragmatism makes more sense.

Personally, I think there's an amount of setting info that goes too far. And White Wolf chronically indulges in this level of setting info, and never more than in Vampire. I think STs should avoid knowing so much about the setting that there isn't room for their game. That they should maybe know enough to know the Giovanni diablerized the Cappodicians en masse, but maybe should write as a plot for himself exactly who, why and how.

I'm about to start running a V:tM game using V:tR rules and I've purposefully avoided reading too much about what the books say are going on so I can create my own conspiracies and mysteries.

Kurald Galain
2012-06-25, 11:34 AM
It was my thoughts that if anyone, player or character looked around them, they would see that ALL the different groups surrounding them have some sort of "soon the world will end" thing, heck, the werewolf game is called Werewolf the APOCALYPSE.
And that's just wrong. The werewolves, for instance, are all about trying to prevent the apocalypse. They've not exactly been doing a stellar job about this, true, but the only faction that seemed to be giving up (2E Bone Gnawers) were slaughtered by the rest of them.

The point is pride. Most factions have pride in spades, and that includes the Kindred, the Garou, and the Magi as well. They're not about to shut up and lie down just because some prophecy tells them to. Any important person that's not already dead doesn't believe it, or thinks he can avert it, or wants to go down fighting. And any non-important person has no particular reason to know that the world is coming to an end.

GolemsVoice
2012-06-25, 01:29 PM
Jup, I'd say we have to separate out-of-game knowledge and in-game knowlegde. While the ST and the players might now that the world is going to end (but wasn't WW also vague about that?), all the (N)PCs might know is that some crazy guy read somewhere the world is going to end, if they even know that.
There are of course people who know more, and I'm sure many of the elders suspect SOMETHING, but intrigue, misdirection, lies and often enough outright crazyness are a vampire's bread and butter, so who can tell what's really true?

The_Jackal
2012-06-25, 01:47 PM
Mastergilgamesh: Have you ever run a VtM game yourself?


The GMs start the characters off as complete noobs who get hand picked by the prince immediately and he'll leave them to face final death if they dont comply

Low level is very appealing for Storytellers, it limits the possible options of things they'll have to deal with. It also tends to encourage less rational advancement decisions from most players, ie: they'll make more well-rounded characters, in lieu of making combat machines.


As far as the Metaplot goes, it makes no sense for anyone to do anything except for the malkavians, as they realize the impending doom and get to have a few last laughs at the rest of the world's expense

Do you have a window into the GM's characters' motivations? I mean, I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but you may not necessarily be right. There may be a reason behind the rhyme that you're not fully aware of yet. Then again, your Storyteller just might be bad.


everything the prince and his surrounding vampires do is to emass power. which is fine in and of itself, but again, world's gonna end, and your power will be all for nothing

I don't see this particular issue as being particularly unrealistic. I mean, we're all going to die, and yet rich and powerful people spend most of their time growing their wealth and power. Moreover, it's very genre appropriate. The VtM world is basically populated by immortal, blood-sucking gangsters. It's The Godfather in a cape with fangs.


the factions are divided up into lawful douchebag and neutral a-hole with no middle ground. The GMs ran the Camarilla in such a way that i almost wanted to run Sabbat, just so I could be a little more independant

Without any concrete examples of how over-strict or under-smart each of the respective factions is, it's hard to opine to much on this one, except to say that that discomfort is how you create drama. If everything's too easy, if everyone gets along and doesn't piss off their neighbor, you don't have much impetus to break the status quo and get in trouble. The idea is that you WANT the players to get in trouble, you WANT to have a coterie who is ready to diablerize an elder or three.


Also, the GMs put too much into the NPCs, and didnt give the players enough room.

Again, specifics. I've definitely seen examples where a GM is all too enamoured of their own NPCs to let the players ever get the better of them, and that's BAD(tm). But sometimes those NPCs are there to constrain the players for a REASON. I guess what I'm getting at is this: VtM is a tragic genre. Take a page from Dwarf Fortress: 'Losing is Fun'. Cause trouble. Break the masquerade. Piss off the Anarchs. Moon the Garou, and then set the Sabbat on fire. Perfect safety is the refuge of the very, very bored.


Maybe I'm too opinionated, maybe i'd be a better DM than a player, but i'd like my character in a system called the STORYTELLER system to be a little more than the slave to unarguable politics.

My only advice here is to try it. It sounds like you've got some pretty strong opinions, and the very very worst that can happen from running is that you'll learn from it, and who knows? Maybe your players will have some fun on the way.

DragonclawExia
2012-06-25, 02:51 PM
Jup, I'd say we have to separate out-of-game knowledge and in-game knowlegde. While the ST and the players might now that the world is going to end (but wasn't WW also vague about that?), all the (N)PCs might know is that some crazy guy read somewhere the world is going to end, if they even know that.
There are of course people who know more, and I'm sure many of the elders suspect SOMETHING, but intrigue, misdirection, lies and often enough outright crazyness are a vampire's bread and butter, so who can tell what's really true?

White Wolf launched a special Gehenna or End of the World Book for when they were ending the OWoD. It's pretty official.

I should know, I rped in it. It was an interesting experience, but it did not feel like normal VtM. It also had the mother of all Godmode Sue NPC's along with a Railroaded Plot that LITERALLY had Death if you dared stray from it. And Death when it was over.

I'll admit the Storyteller did an amazing job anyway, though I think he broke the actual Canon in half or something to make it enjoyable. By the end, it seriously felt like Vampire Ball Z. No, I'm not kidding, it was THAT whack.

In my bizarre experiences, VtM is horribly bad even when it's actually playable.

Kish
2012-06-25, 03:01 PM
but the only faction that seemed to be giving up (2E Bone Gnawers) were slaughtered by the rest of them.
...huh?

The Bone Gnawers never seemed to be giving up and they certainly weren't slaughtered by the other tribes.

The Stargazers, now, they receded from prominence enough between 2ed and 3ed to not be listed as one of the default player tribes in 3ed. Twelve Tribes--of which the Bone Gnawers were/are still the most numerous, thank you very much--rather than the Thirteen of 2ed.

Kurald Galain
2012-06-25, 06:24 PM
White Wolf launched a special Gehenna or End of the World Book for when they were ending the OWoD. It's pretty official.
So what? WOTC released an End Of The World book when they were ending second edition D&D. That's equally official. That doesn't mean your DM has to use that particular book, and indeed if he doesn't, then the Whitewolf core books are rather vague about if, how, and when the world might be going to end.

DragonclawExia
2012-06-25, 07:38 PM
I don't exactly remember the details, but its rather specific in my recollection.

I think according to the books, theres like 3 or 4 general ways the world ends.

I could check Google, but it involved the ancestors of Vampires killing all their bloodlines, Caine rising and either leading the army of the damned or trying to stop the antedulivans or something, Lilith doing....something, mostly involving trying to kill Caine and...God crushing someone with his pinky.


It was a weird source book.


Anyways, the main difference is that Gehenna is a major part of the oWoD Mythos and the Metaplot tends to be focused around it in some way when given a chance.

AD&D doesn't have a similar Apocalypse Event thats ingrained in the entire Mythos, and theres more then one setting anyway. So even if one world is destroyed, that doesn't mean you can't just use another identical one and said the world that got destroyed was Universe-2 or something.




Yeah, White Wolf is kinda forceful on it's metaplot. I think it's cause they outsource the actual writing to pofessional freelance writers, which is why they have high quality writing but doesn't really flow well for an actual game.

Though I sorta forgot the details. That's just the impression I get from trying to read their sourcebooks, all those years ago. They really, really, vary in writing style, and as someone who had experience in dealing with professional writers, you notice they tend to have personal idiosyncracies.


Unlike D&D, where the major change is in the Rule Systems, different versions of WoD tends to change major themes. Like, the Malkavians aren't crazy or seers but plugged into some weird Spiritual Internet of some kind.

But that spiritual internet was REALLY their ancestor, Malkav, having achieved divinity. Or something

Kish
2012-06-25, 10:19 PM
So what? WOTC released an End Of The World book when they were ending second edition D&D.
They did?

Which world?

GolemsVoice
2012-06-26, 03:56 AM
As far as I know, the human world, so all of the systems, but it might have just been vampire.

Kish
2012-06-26, 08:11 AM
So what? WOTC released an End Of The World book when they were ending second edition D&D.


They did?

Which world?


As far as I know, the human world, so all of the systems, but it might have just been vampire.
...huh?

You don't appear to have followed the conversation here.

To get this out of the way, each of White Wolf's three core lines--Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage--came out with a separate "this is how to run the end of the world if you want to" supplement when they halted oWoD.

Kurald stated that WotC came out with an "end of the world" supplement when 2ed ended. I asked what world that is. "Vampire" is not a possible answer to that; "Oerth" or "Mystara" or "It didn't say, it was for a generic world" is.

GolemsVoice
2012-06-26, 11:19 AM
Oh, sorry, I thought you were referring to WW's "worlds" like. Sorry, yes, I've not been following correctly.

GoblinGilmartin
2012-06-26, 12:19 PM
Mastergilgamesh: Have you ever run a VtM game yourself?



Low level is very appealing for Storytellers, it limits the possible options of things they'll have to deal with. It also tends to encourage less rational advancement decisions from most players, ie: they'll make more well-rounded characters, in lieu of making combat machines.



Do you have a window into the GM's characters' motivations? I mean, I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but you may not necessarily be right. There may be a reason behind the rhyme that you're not fully aware of yet. Then again, your Storyteller just might be bad.



I don't see this particular issue as being particularly unrealistic. I mean, we're all going to die, and yet rich and powerful people spend most of their time growing their wealth and power. Moreover, it's very genre appropriate. The VtM world is basically populated by immortal, blood-sucking gangsters. It's The Godfather in a cape with fangs.



Without any concrete examples of how over-strict or under-smart each of the respective factions is, it's hard to opine to much on this one, except to say that that discomfort is how you create drama. If everything's too easy, if everyone gets along and doesn't piss off their neighbor, you don't have much impetus to break the status quo and get in trouble. The idea is that you WANT the players to get in trouble, you WANT to have a coterie who is ready to diablerize an elder or three.



Again, specifics. I've definitely seen examples where a GM is all too enamoured of their own NPCs to let the players ever get the better of them, and that's BAD(tm). But sometimes those NPCs are there to constrain the players for a REASON. I guess what I'm getting at is this: VtM is a tragic genre. Take a page from Dwarf Fortress: 'Losing is Fun'. Cause trouble. Break the masquerade. Piss off the Anarchs. Moon the Garou, and then set the Sabbat on fire. Perfect safety is the refuge of the very, very bored.



My only advice here is to try it. It sounds like you've got some pretty strong opinions, and the very very worst that can happen from running is that you'll learn from it, and who knows? Maybe your players will have some fun on the way.

It sounds like a good idea. I ran one once, for about an hour, when i first got the books, it didnt last long, and it was me and one other guy. It was lack of any preparation that did it though. Since then, i've gotten more familiar with the setting, and i'd love to try running it.

Earlier in this thread, i invited anyone who wanted to to see if they would consent to playing a game run by me for a couple of sessions., i don't think anyone saw it.

Aron Times
2012-06-30, 08:22 PM
I've been playing a few weeks in a V20 game as a Lasombra antitribu, and my DM just unleash a Lasombra priest on me while I was out gathering information against the Sabbat. Seeing an opportunity to strike a blow against the Sabbat and sensing that I had no chance of escape, I draw my sword and attack. A few rounds later, I am in torpor, after the DM went all out by spend WP and maximum blood for the Sabbat priest. I, on the other hand, simply spent my maximum of three vitae per turn buffing my stats.

If that's not the definition of a killer DM, I don't know what is.

P.S.

Is there a rule or guideline that NPCs can't blow all their willpower in a fight? It seems really overpowered to have a hostile NPC spend all of his willpower to win when he's not going to be using it for anything else anyway.

The Glyphstone
2012-06-30, 08:24 PM
You can only spend 1 WP per turn, can't you?

Aron Times
2012-06-30, 08:27 PM
He spent 1 willpower each turn except the last, when he didn't need to since he rolled enough damage to send me to torpor. And he made the rolls in secret using the secret roll function on rpol.net. I'm calling shenanigans, basically, and I am waiting for his reply PM.

Driderman
2012-07-01, 04:11 AM
Well, the Storyteller system can be deadly if you're unlucky. It's not a particularily good system for resolving combat, if you do it blow-by-blow at least.
That being said, Vampire seems to have a higher than average percentage of cheesy DMs who get overenamored by their NPCs, especially Lasombras since they're so dark, edgy and often stylishly evil.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-01, 08:27 AM
Still, Lasombra aren't exactly go-to combat monkeys as far as clans go. Dominate and Presence are good social disciplines, but Obtenebration isn't really combat-effective until the 3rd or 4th rank. That likely means Potence out-of-clan for the extra damage, which means the PC here was probably deliberately pitted against an enemy who significantly out-XPed him.

comicshorse
2012-07-01, 09:19 AM
I've been playing a few weeks in a V20 game as a Lasombra antitribu, and my DM just unleash a Lasombra priest on me while I was out gathering information against the Sabbat. Seeing an opportunity to strike a blow against the Sabbat and sensing that I had no chance of escape, I draw my sword and attack. A few rounds later, I am in torpor, after the DM went all out by spend WP and maximum blood for the Sabbat priest. I, on the other hand, simply spent my maximum of three vitae per turn buffing my stats.

If that's not the definition of a killer DM, I don't know what is.

P.S.

Is there a rule or guideline that NPCs can't blow all their willpower in a fight? It seems really overpowered to have a hostile NPC spend all of his willpower to win when he's not going to be using it for anything else anyway.

When Lasombra and Lasombra Antribu meet its almost certainly going to be a fight to the death. So it makes perfect sense for the NPC to blow everything he has in order to win.
While the idea of a hostile NPC spending all the Willpower they've never had to use for anything else is unfair, you did say the fight lasted only a few rounds. Thats most likely only going to be a portion of the NPC's Willpower.

Secret rolling I can't comment on as I don't know the GM

GoblinGilmartin
2012-07-01, 03:33 PM
I think I've figured it out, kinda. I think the problem i have with WoD is that the GMs i've had put too much into the world, and not the characters.

I was on TVtropes and i came across this quote on the One-Hour Work Week page.


One of the freelance writers for White Wolf, Matt McFarland, has said he's surprised most PCs don't take the private eye/Occult Detective route. What with the mind-reading and mind controlling powers of vampires, the scent tracking and shapeshifting abilities of werewolves, and the... well, everything of mages, it would be a snap.

This was something that i thought made more sense. That the vampires should be using their powers and immortality in order to gain knowledge, after all, knowledge is power, and they could better themselves with it. Like Beckett(?) from Bloodlines. Politics shouldn't be the focus of all of a VtM game. Give the players a pay off of a tangible goal, e.g. a paycheck, or a new piece of backstory, rather than one "not die a horrible burning death at the hand of a superior" coupon.

Kish
2012-07-01, 03:52 PM
Still, Lasombra aren't exactly go-to combat monkeys as far as clans go. Dominate and Presence are good social disciplines, but Obtenebration isn't really combat-effective until the 3rd or 4th rank. That likely means Potence out-of-clan for the extra damage, which means the PC here was probably deliberately pitted against an enemy who significantly out-XPed him.
...huh? Lasombra in VtM have Potence as a clan Discipline, not Presence.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-01, 03:55 PM
...huh? Lasombra in VtM have Potence as a clan Discipline, not Presence.

...Right, my bad. I had done a quick lookup and misread one P-discipline for another P-discipline.

Driderman
2012-07-01, 04:04 PM
Still, Lasombra aren't exactly go-to combat monkeys as far as clans go. Dominate and Presence are good social disciplines, but Obtenebration isn't really combat-effective until the 3rd or 4th rank. That likely means Potence out-of-clan for the extra damage, which means the PC here was probably deliberately pitted against an enemy who significantly out-XPed him.

Potence is a Lasombra clan discipline. Also, revised edition Obtenebration gives stamina-pool penalties to mortals or supernatural engulfted fron dot 2 upwards, so a Potence/Obtenebration cainite can be very dangerous indeed, reducing soak pool with an amount equal to Obtenebration while dealing out automatic damage with Potence at the same time.

Driderman
2012-07-01, 04:23 PM
I think I've figured it out, kinda. I think the problem i have with WoD is that the GMs i've had put too much into the world, and not the characters.

I was on TVtropes and i came across this quote on the One-Hour Work Week page.



This was something that i thought made more sense. That the vampires should be using their powers and immortality in order to gain knowledge, after all, knowledge is power, and they could better themselves with it. Like Beckett(?) from Bloodlines. Politics shouldn't be the focus of all of a VtM game. Give the players a pay off of a tangible goal, e.g. a paycheck, or a new piece of backstory, rather than one "not die a horrible burning death at the hand of a superior" coupon.

Several of the Vampire signature characters are using their power to gain knowledge. Beckett is one the signature charactes of V:tM, along with Anatole the Mad Prophet (also a seeker of knowledge) and Lucita of Aragon. They've been working together for centuries to piece together stories of Genenna, among other arcane lore. Hesha Ruhadze, the signature character for the Followers of Set is a purveyor of secrets, ancient lore and artifacts
Sascha Vykos, the Tzmisce signature character, seeks to transcend the cainite form through eldritch knowledge and supernatural science and
The Nosferatu signature character Calebros is, well, a nosferatu and by default a peddler in information mundane and supernatural.

The problem is more that most Storytellers tend to stop at the rather basic "Vampire coterie = D&D party, Prince = questgiver" mentality even though the setting has a lot more to offer than some Underworld rip-off.

Kish
2012-07-01, 04:33 PM
the setting has a lot more to offer than some Underworld rip-off.
How ironic. You see, when Underworld came out, White Wolf launched a lawsuit, stating that the movie was a direct ripoff of one of their modules.

Menteith
2012-07-01, 06:49 PM
It can also be one of the least forgiving RPGs out there. With a relatively low maximum health, and a luck based mitigation system, it's entirely possible for an Elder to get wasted by a ghoul and some Dragon's Breath rounds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8niD-n0lHk&feature=related) (Or PCs against really any other supernatural, Vampires just aren't that sturdy in oWoD). It's entirely possible to have a neonate capable of wrecking the Prince if they get a chance, which can force Storytellers to fiat away those chances, which is frustrating for both sides.

GolemsVoice
2012-07-01, 08:28 PM
That's what I actually liked about VtM. If I was CLEVER enough, I could kill nearly any "normal" vampire. Trap them in a burning building? Throw them off a (high) roof, or just plain planting a bomb in the car WILL kill most of them, be he prince or neonate. Thing is, these folks ARE paranoid for a reason, and should the attempt fail, you better not be around for much longer.

Menteith
2012-07-01, 08:55 PM
That's what I actually liked about VtM. If I was CLEVER enough, I could kill nearly any "normal" vampire. Trap them in a burning building? Throw them off a (high) roof, or just plain planting a bomb in the car WILL kill most of them, be he prince or neonate. Thing is, these folks ARE paranoid for a reason, and should the attempt fail, you better not be around for much longer.

Oh, I agree. It's just that (in my experience), Storytellers can get frustrated with how chaotic the world can be, and attempting to fiat away randomness is immensely frustrating.

GoblinGilmartin
2012-07-01, 09:47 PM
I once assisted in the attempted assassination of the prince of a made up town in Massachusetts. The russian arms dealer gangrel and I(a malkavian) tried to crash a small plane into his Elysium, but the DM just brushed it off by saying "he wasn't there" at the time, and it was almost never mentioned again. even after the dozens of innocents that should have demanded swift retribution.

Kurald Galain
2012-07-02, 03:26 AM
This is why I consider the most important combat discipline to be Obfuscate.

Driderman
2012-07-02, 04:28 AM
How ironic. You see, when Underworld came out, White Wolf launched a lawsuit, stating that the movie was a direct ripoff of one of their modules.

I know. I'm also pretty sure they were quite right about it :)

Again, the problem is that most Storytellers don't really think beyond personal power. Sure, if you're smart you can whack the prince with little problem. You're not allowed to though and he's got a whole political entity backing his claim. Even if he was an annoying asshat that nobody liked, the Camarilla can't really go around letting neonates kill their princes without repercussions, so there's bound to be some official reaction when a Prince dies.
Also, that Prince had allies, maybe"siblings", perhaps a childe or three, a sire and potentially a handful of competent, loving ghouls, all who might need/want to take revenge, statuate an example or find a replacement for whatever plots they were involved in with the late Prince.
Not to mention that the anarchs and the Sabbat might be very interested in recruiting Prince-killers and the Sabbat isn't exactly known for its diplomatic ways.
One rock, lots of ripples. There could be any number of consequences from whacking a Prince, which an intelligent or welleducated neonate should be able to deduce, or will learn the hard way :)

Siegel
2012-07-02, 05:30 AM
Wouldn't that be a great starting point: You killed the prince, now deal with it!