rogue shopping spree anyone?

[robertbevan]

so i'm going to be involved in a campaign that i'm not super excited about, but i'd like to give it a shot anyway.
DM says we're all to start with 20 levels, anything goes from any book. also, we get 150,000 gold to buy whatever we want with.

being kind of lazy and unmotivated (and lacking the experience to properly make a 20th level character, this is what i've got so far. i boosted my strength rather than dex because i was going to go with a stabby rogue. maybe that was dumb. time will tell.

any critique is welcome, but i'm mainly interested to know what you'd recommend spending the 150k on.






Male Human Rogue 19 / Conjuror 1
Chaotic Neutral

Strength 22 (+6)
Dexterity 16 (+3)
Constitution 11 (+0)
Intelligence 15 (+2)
Wisdom 9 (-1)
Charisma 13 (+1)

Specialty: Conjuration
Gave up: Enchantment Necromancy
Total Hit Points: 64
Armor Class: 13 = 10 +3 [dexterity]

Raven familiar

Feats:

Blind-fight
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Improved Critical x2 Weapon(s): rapier, kukri
Improved Initiative
Martial Weapon Proficiency Weapon: kukri
Point Blank Shot
Quick Draw
Two-Weapon Fighting
Scribe Scroll [free to wizard]

[Curmudgeon]

I'm not sure why you'd be excited. Rogues are extremely equipment-dependent, and you're getting less than 20% of the normal level 20 character wealth. You're going to get killed, and quickly, because you won't have what you need to be able to cope.

[Invader]

Ewww why is you WBL so low? Is the DM going to tone down the CR of the things you'll be fighting since you're all down about 600,000gp worth of magic items? :smalltongue:

[robertbevan]

I'm not sure why you'd be excited. Rogues are extremely equipment-dependent, and you're getting less than 20% of the normal level 20 character wealth. You're going to get killed, and quickly, because you won't have what you need to be able to cope.

i think you may have misread my post. i said i'm not super excited about this campaign. here's a thread i started last week explaining why, if you're interested.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245750

[robertbevan]

Ewww why is you WBL so low? Is the DM going to tone down the CR of the things you'll be fighting since you're all down about 600,000gp worth of magic items? :smalltongue:


this is his first time DMing, and he wanted to go crazy with things. in his words, he was "tired of fighting rats."

i don't think he has any idea what he's doing.

[Curmudgeon]

i think you may have misread my post. i said i'm not super excited about this campaign.
Yes, I missed the point. Your avoidance of sentence capitalization makes reading harder than usual.

Do you have to play a Rogue? It's my favorite class, but not crippled like that.

[Invader]

this is his first time DMing, and he wanted to go crazy with things. in his words, he was "tired of fighting rats."

i don't think he has any idea what he's doing.

Yeah it sounds like he's hamstringing you from the get go and plans on making you fight above average CR's.

That being the case, lots of "Dust of choking and sneezing" and then just take your time killing whatever he throws at you.

[robertbevan]

Yes, I missed the point. Your avoidance of sentence capitalization makes reading harder than usual.

Do you have to play a Rogue? It's my favorite class, but not crippled like that.

Sorry. I'll cap this one for you. Yeah, I'm going to play rogue. If I die in the first five minutes, that's fine. I'll drink beer and roll up another piss poor character. I like being a rogue, and I've got a feeling that's about the only thing I'm likely to like during this campaign.

If I sound too whiny right now, it's because I didn't get enough sleep last night.

[FaradayCage]

You sound like you're not going to enjoy the campaign. Buy a potion of tongues so you can speak whatever language the DM does and convey this to him.

It sounds like the DM is a little green and wants to check out high level play without having much experience in it. While that's fine, it's probably going to lead to little more than a one-off (or few-off) before it crashes and burns.

If you're still going to go through with it, switch your strength buffs over to dexterity and grab weapon finesse. Also pick up all TWF feats that grant you more attacks. Optimal rogue play usually means getting sneak attack damage on every attack. That's an average 35 extra damage per attack (versus the piddly 6/3 damage your strength nets you). If you love the kukri, feel free to dual-wield it (you're only losing 1.x average damage for attack and it frees up a feat). There's tons of things about your build that are suicidal, but those are the biggest.

But this is about equipment, right? Corrosive burst weapons probably. Light armor with full fortification (at level 20 with that constitution, a crit is probably going to kill you twice over). Something to boost your constitution while you're at it. Anything that boosts your saves. Probably something to grant you a miss chance since that's the primary form of "AC" at higher levels.

[Curmudgeon]

OK, I think I've got a handle on what you should do. Since you've got other characters with pull-out-all-the-stops abilities, you should do some of the same for a reasonable chance at having fun in the game.

Strength 22 (+6)
Dexterity 16 (+3)
Constitution 11 (+0)
Intelligence 15 (+2)
Wisdom 9 (-1)
Charisma 13 (+1) Assuming you started with STR 17, that's 40 point buy. You can be more efficient: simply put 14 in all starting stats except for INT, which you make 16. While Human and STR-based is a bit sub-par, I think we can make that work for you. So all your ability increments will go to Strength.

1 level of Conjurer is pretty much useless. What you're getting is very little more than the ability to use wands with Wizard spells and access to Abrupt Jaunt ACF, and you're losing out badly on skill points. Instead, 1 level of Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) (Unearthed Arcana) with the Magic domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#magicDomain) will give you the ability to use wands with all Wizard and Cleric spells. You also get Knowledge domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#knowledgeDomain) and one other; I recommend Travel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#travelDomain). You can convert that to Travel Devotion (Complete Champion), which will let you move your speed (40' or more) as a swift action 40 times a day (10 consecutive rounds in each of 4 daily encounters), vs. 10' Abrupt Jaunt teleportation only 2 times a day. So Rogue 17/Cloistered Cleric 1/Rogue +1 to start.

Taking "anything goes from any book" to heart (meaning excluding Dragon magazine), you can add quite a bit of capability to your Rogue even with meager financial resources. If you serve an Elder Evil (necessitating Evil alignment) that service grants you Vile feats (1 + 1 every 5 character levels). This service isn't the same as worship, and you can also be a Cleric (of a cause, not a deity). You can do that even with a Forgotten Realms-based character, because the 3.5 Player's Guide to Faerûn replaced the part of 3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting which had the "Clerics must worship a deity" rule without picking that up.

I recommend the following "float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" approach for a Strength-based Human melee Rogue of Neutral Evil (bad attitude!) rather than Chaotic Neutral (unreliable!) alignment:

Flaws (also from Unearthed Arcana):

Weak Will (-3 to Will saves)
Vulnerable (-1 to AC)

You're going to take the Faerûn-specific Dark Creature template from Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave on page 152. This gives you a bunch of goodies:

darkvision 60'
superior low-light vision (4x as good as Human normal)
+10' land speed
resist cold 10
Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight: no cover/concealment needed, but doesn't work in daylight
+8 racial bonus to Hide
+6 racial bonus to Move Silently
This template costs you +1 level adjustment. You'll buy that off at character level 3 for only 3,000 XP. So you'll start 3,000 XP behind your friends at just under level 20, meaning you'll catch up to their level after the first encounter. Point out to your DM that XP gain is based on your level, so you should receive more XP as a level 19 character in that encounter than your level 20 friends.

At Rogue 3 you'll take the Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208) in place of trap sense. This lets you deliver sneak attack with ½ the normal dice (but full Craven bonus) to sneak-immune enemies when you flank them.

Feats: (7 general, 1 Human, 2 from flaws, 4 Vile, 2 converted from domains)

1. Education (Eberron Campaign Setting, page 52): all Knowledges are class skills for all classes
1f. Combat Reflexes: more attacks of opportunity
1f. Craven (Champions of Ruin, page 17): +1 point/class level to sneak attack damage
1h. Darkstalker (Lords of Madness, page 179): Hide against tremorsense, blindsight, & c.
1V. Willing Deformity (Heroes of Horror 125): +3 to Intimidate
3. Fire Heritage ((Planar Handbook, page 39): +1 Initiative, +1 point of fire damage to all natural attacks including unarmed strikes
5V. Deformity (tall) (Heroes of Horror 121): +5' reach, -1 AC, -2 Hide penalty
6. Aberration Blood (Lords of Madness, page 178): gain flexible limbs, +2 Grapple bonus
9. Snap Kick (Tome of Battle, page 32): extra unarmed attack if you make 1+ melee attacks
10V. Vile Ki Strike (Elder Evils, page 14): +1 point of Vile damage with all unarmed strikes
12. Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel, page 80): "take 12" on mastered skills, deal STR damage to target immune to sneak attack, unlimited Opportunist uses/round, +2 competence bonus on Reflex saves (@ Rogue 19)
15. Extended Reach (Savage Species, page 34): +5' reach
15V. Vile Natural Attack (Elder Evils, page 14): +1 point of Vile damage with natural attacks including unarmed strikes
18. Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness, page 180): +5' reach, -1 to melee attacks
Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62 ─ converted from Travel domain): move your speed as a swift action for 10 consecutive rounds, 4x/day
Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion, pages 60-61 ─ converted from Knowledge domain): +5 to attack and damage vs. all creatures

Mundane Equipment (1,085 gp total):

Masterwork tool for Tumble (if your DM requires a specific use rather than the whole skill, it's to move 10 feet as a “5-foot step”; see Oriental Adventures on page 58): 50
Masterwork tool for Hide: 50
Masterwork tool for Move Silently: 50
Masterwork Thieves’ Tools (for Disable Device & Open Lock): 100
Masterwork composite shortbow, +6 STR: 825
200 arrows: 10

Magic Items (see Magic Item Compendium on pages 233-234 for "Adding/Improving Common Item Effects") (127,760 gp total):

+2 STR enhancement on some Arms/Hands/Waist item 4,000
+2 INT enhancement on some Head/Face item 4,000
+2 CHA enhancement on some Head/Shoulder item 4,000
+2 DEX enhancement on some Arms/Hands/Feet item 4,000
+2 WIS enhancement on some Head/Throat item 4,000
+6 AC bonus to Robe (from Scholar's Outfit) 36,000
+2 enhancement bonus to natural armor in Body or Torso item 8,000
+2 Ring of Protection 8,000
Monk's Belt 11,000
Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn, pages 155-156): gain Improved Unarmed Strike feat 1,310
Gemstone of Heavy Fortification (Draconomicon, page 83): 100% fortification 35,000
Goggles of Minute Seeing: +5 competence bonus to Search 1,250
Wand of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon, page 115) @ CL 16: 7,200 for 10 charges (see Dungeon Master's Guide on page 199): unarmed strike boosted to effective Colossal size for 16 hours

Spells purchased from NPCs (12,490 gp total):

Limited Wish to implant Gemstone of Heavy Fortification 2,410
Fox's Cunning to boost INT before taking Skill Mastery: 60
Greater Magic Fang @ CL 20 for +5 to unarmed strike attack and damage: 600
Permanency @ CL 20 for Greater Magic Fang: 8,500
Magic Mouth @ CL 25; "Look! Up in the sky! It's a whale!": 500
Magic Mouth @ CL 21; "Look! Up in the sky! It's a kraken!": 420
The Magic Mouth spells are sacrificial targets: designed to protect your lower-level Greater Magic Fang and Permanency spells against area dispels.

After the above items you've still got 8,665 gp left. Buy yourself a warm blanky and a few meals.

Rogue Special Abilities:

Crippling Strike
Skill Mastery
Opportunist
Improved Evasion (when you hit Rogue 19)

Skill Ranks (253 skill points total; 8 skills mastered: M):

Balance 5
HideM 22; +8 bonus from Dark Creature template; +2 MW tool; -2 Deformity (tall)
Knowledge (Arcana)M 19; +1 bonus from Education
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)M 19; +1 bonus from Education
Knowledge (Local)M 20
Knowledge (Nature)M 20
Knowledge (Religion)M 20
Knowledge (The Planes)M 20
TumbleM 22; +2 MW tool
Spot 22
Listen 22
Search 16; +5 Goggles of Minute Seeing
Disable Device 16; +2 MW tool
Move Silently 10; +6 bonus from Dark Creature template; +2 MW tool

20 ranks each creature-specific Knowledge skill, with +4 INT mod and "take 12" instead of rolling on mastered skills = DC 36 on those Knowledge checks, guaranteeing the maximum +5 bonus on Knowledge Devotion always. With the MW tool you're also guaranteed for DC 40 to make a 10' Tumble adjustment in place of a 5' step.

Your movement ("float like a butterfly") will include:
30' Human base
+10' Dark Creature template
(optional) +10' Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick), at the cost of 19 HP
move your speed as a swift action in most every round of combat
if you don't move otherwise, you can make a 5' or a 10' step
whenever you move, you Hide (except in daylight :smallmad:)

Your unarmed strike ("sting like a bee") will have the following properties:

+27 attack (+14 BAB, +6 STR bonus, +5 Knowledge Devotion, +5 Greater Magic Fang, -1 Inhuman Reach, -2 Snap Kick). Most of the time you'll be hidden and that will give you an additional +2 to attack, as if you were invisible (see Rules Compendium on page 92).
20' reach
6d6 base damage (1d8 from Monk's Belt, boosted by Greater Mighty Wallop) +19 (+5 Knowledge Devotion +5 Greater Magic Fang +6 STR bonus +2 Vile damage +1 fire damage). Note that Vile damage can't be healed normally, even with healing spells (Elder Evils, pages 10-11). For Snap Kick attacks you add +3 (½ STR bonus) instead of +6, but all the other numbers remain the same: 6d6+16.
+9d6+19 sneak attack bonus damage, when applicable (i.e., most of the time); +4d6+19 when flanking a sneak-immune enemy.
+2 STR damage when you would meet sneak attack requirements, even against targets immune to sneak attack.
Every time you make at least 1 melee attack, you get a bonus unarmed strike (with ½ STR bonus) from Snap Kick. That includes a Snap Kick with

a standard action melee attack
a full attack inluding at least 1 melee attack
an attack of opportunity
a bonus attack such as granted by Improved Trip


Your composite shortbow attack will have the following properties:

+22 attack (+14 BAB, +3 DEX bonus, +5 Knowledge Devotion). Most of the time you'll be hidden and that will give you an additional +2 to attack.
1d6 base damage +11 (+5 Knowledge Devotion +6 STR bonus).
+9d6+19 sneak attack bonus damage, when applicable (i.e., usually within 30')

Final stats:

STR 22 (14 base, +4 increments, +2 enhancement item)
DEX 16 (14 base, +2 enhancement item)
CON 14
INT 18 (16 base, +2 enhancement item) ─ needed high to max out Knowledge Devotion
WIS 16 (14 base, +2 enhancement item) ─ used for AC with Monk's Belt
CHA 16 (14 base, +2 enhancement item) ─ boosted to get a 4th daily use of Travel Devotion

Your AC reflects the poor equipment budget: 25 = 10 base + 3 DEX mod +6 robe armor bonus +4 (WIS mod +1 from Monk's Belt) +2 natural armor enhancement +2 deflection (from Ring of Protection) -1 Vulnerable -1 Deformity (tall). You do have heavy fortification, though, so no critical hits.

The feature which will make your poor AC and poor saving throws not matter too much is that, most of the time, you can't be targeted. Unless you're in daylight, you can Hide pretty much continually as long as you're taking an action which allows a Hide check. That includes all movement, even your 5' or 10' steps. And it also includes all attacks.
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. You've got a guaranteed 45 Hide check before penalties. Even with a -20 penalty you've got a decent chance to succeed on a Hide check with every punch or kick of a full attack. If you succeed they don't have a clue what square you're in. If you fail, it's not a big deal to make a 10' step and Hide with only a -5 (full movement rate) penalty afterward. At level 19, "practically impossible" becomes more like "Boy, this cost me a ****load of skill points and I still might fail" instead.

The tactics are fairly straightforward, but let me point out a few things. At the start of the day you'll use your wand of Greater Mighty Wallop for 16 hours of power-up to your unarmed attack. You'll travel making constant (no rolling) DC 45 Hide checks at normal walking speed. (Just keep out of the way of your friends, because they won't be able to see you either.) Even though this is built as a melee combatant, walk with your composite shortbow ready to fire because you've got only 20' reach and in a surprise round you can take just a standard action attack, not move and attack. Don't squander guaranteed sneak attack by moving if you've got a flat-footed target 30' away. Most of the time you won't be surprised because you've maxed out both Spot and Listen skills. In the first regular round of combat you'll keep firing your bow (make a full attack targeting enemies who haven't moved, which probably means they're vulnerable to sneak attack), unless the enemies happen to use their actions to close before your turn. When they do close, you'll probably get attacks of opportunity as they approach due to your 20' reach. Smack them hard twice each time (the second from Snap Kick), and Hide while doing so. After that it's just a lot of improbably long punches and kicks, staying out of sight nearly all the time. Since you can full attack from 20' away and then move another 40' away, unseen, you'll likely not even be subject to area attacks because they'll guess the wrong area.

You're good for 10 days with the partially charged wand of Greater Mighty Wallop. With any decent sort of treasure you should be able to afford a full 50 charge wand after 10 days. You should also get a CL 20 wand of Magic Vestment for +5 enhancement to your armor bonus, since you don't have any actual armor: you're just wearing a regular robe with a common armor bonus effect. That will take your unarmored AC from pathetic to merely poor.

You should level up after your first encounter; you only need 3,000 XP. You'll take Rogue 19 and get +1d6+1 more sneak attack, +1 extra BAB, another Rogue special ability (Improved Evasion, mostly for the +2 to Reflex saves from Savvy Rogue), another ability increment, and another Vile feat.

Good luck, and I hope you have fun!

[robertbevan]

cheese n' crackers, curmudgeon!

how long did you spend doing that? i don't even know what half of that **** means. but yeah, that's probably what i'll be going with. i've got a bit of homework to do before friday night.

thanks a bunch, dude.

[Amoren]

You might be better served going an arcane rogue. Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer x/arcane trickster whatever and play it like whatever rogue you want should do you well. Having access to your spells will give you a lot more survivability with your WPL so low.

I also recommend the armor enchantment that gives you essentially permanent death ward. Really helps against some of the more dangerous fort spells you won't be saving against.

Edit: On using tumble for ten foot movement, if the DM doesn't want to allow that use of the skill there's a magic item from a 3.0 book that upgrades your 5' step into a 10' step. Of course, it takes up your entire gold budget and you have to make a DC 20 UMD check to pass yourself off as a monk, but the effect is permanent and free (and you can sell it back for at least half of the gold).

[Curmudgeon]

cheese n' crackers, curmudgeon!

how long did you spend doing that?
A couple hours initially, then another half hour doing corrections (since it was the middle of the night and I made some goofs).

thanks a bunch, dude.
You're welcome. I like Rogues, and I'd been wanting to get a better grasp on just how much difference a decent equipment budget makes. I'd prefer the AC about 30 points higher (i.e., up where it might actually matter), but I hope you might have some fun with this. Let us know how it goes.

[robertbevan]

A couple hours initially, then another half hour doing corrections (since it was the middle of the night and I made some goofs).

ha! that's longer than i expected to be alive before.


You're welcome. I like Rogues, and I'd been wanting to get a better grasp on just how much difference a decent equipment budget makes. I'd prefer the AC about 30 points higher (i.e., up where it might actually matter), but I hope you might have some fun with this. Let us know how it goes.

i certainly will. thanks again.

[Flickerdart]

With such poor AC, wouldn't it be better to abandon it altogether and grab a Minor Cloak of Displacement? There's no way that 24 AC at level 20 would provide anything close to 20% chance to avoid attacks.

Also, you mean deflection, not displacement bonus on the ring.

[Suddo]

If you're allowed to get custom items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) it would be preferred to get a Boot of Insightful AC +1(+1 insight to AC, 3750gp) & a +1 ring of protection. This saves you 1250gp. I like custom items, outside of "only works for x class/skill" stuff, personally but I understand if a DM doesn't jump at the idea.

And I kind of have to agree with trying to get the cloak of displacement.

Edit: How much is a +2 belt of magnificence.

[Curmudgeon]

With such poor AC, wouldn't it be better to abandon it altogether and grab a Minor Cloak of Displacement?
Short term? Maybe. In the long term, though, anywhere close to decent AC will turn more than 20% of attacks into misses. If the DM uses the change in Rules Compendium which doesn't allow any miss chances to stack (and "anything goes from any book" would indicate that) then buying this item (1/6th of the total budget) would be a waste. After all, being hidden means you have total concealment (50% miss chance for attacks against your location), so the Minor Cloak would pretty much only be effective in daylight when Dark Creature HiPS doesn't work. AC still works when it's your square being attacked. But as I stated, the real push is to get the Rogue to where they can't be targeted.

Also, you mean deflection, not displacement bonus on the ring. Yes, thanks. I was pushing way past bedtime trying to finish the build, and I make mistakes when I'm tired.

Edit: How much is a +2 belt of magnificence.
That's 25,000 gp, which is 1,000 gp more than if you bought the "common item effects" for all 6 stats. It's just the Belt of Magnificence +6 which is at a slight cost discount; the +2 and +4 models actually cost more compared to boosting each ability separately.

[Lortharian Duin]

Seriously think about Staggering Strike feat from Complete Adventurer, p.112. I'd sacrifice +5' reach if possible for that feat.

But that's just me.:smallsmile:

[DeadAggressor]

Where do you get those masterwork tools for the Tumble, Move Silently, and Hide?

[Curmudgeon]

Seriously think about Staggering Strike feat from Complete Adventurer, p.112. I'd sacrifice +5' reach if possible for that feat.

But that's just me.:smallsmile:
You'd give up 44% of the squares you can reach to limit a monster to its standard attack instead of its full attack? You'd also be giving up at least 44% of the movement-related AoOs you can make. With Opportunist and Savvy Rogue you also get AoOs against enemies you can reach simply because they attack your friends. And of course any time your reach exceeds the enemy's you'll get an AoO if they try to close on you. The build is designed so that using up the maximum of 8 unarmed hits allowed on AoOs is a real possibility each round.

Also if only your location can be targeted, greatly reducing the number of squares the monsters would have to try attacking before they hit you seems unwise. Plus most monsters use natural attacks, and dropping from 2 natural weapons on a full attack to 1 on a standard action attack isn't a relatively big hindrance.

Yes, it's just you. I like Staggering Strike quite a lot. I like getting an extra 8 hits in per round a lot more ─ and having greater reach than anything up to Gargantuan size is a good way to do that.


Where do you get those masterwork tools for the Tumble, Move Silently, and Hide?
From the Player's Handbook Equipment chapter, as a standard listed item:
Tool, Masterwork

This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack. The only quibble is what "the job" entails. With Hide and Move Silently there's only one "job" for each: either you're hidden or moving silently, or you're not. With Tumble there are multiple uses for the skill, and a DM may get picky. But there's only one job which requires DC 40, so that works out OK.

[Suddo]

Where do you get those masterwork tools for the Tumble, Move Silently, and Hide?

PHB in the section with mundane items it says Masterwork items and they are basically a +2 to any check for 500(?)gp.

[Amoren]

Staggering Strike might be worth losing one of the +1 damage on unarmed strike feats, perhaps. I suppose it depends on if you prefer having unloading the staggering condition on everything you trigger a sneak attack on in your 20' reach, or dealing one more fire damage to it per hit (two less damage per AoO, due to snap kick?)

[Curmudgeon]

Staggering Strike might be worth losing one of the +1 damage on unarmed strike feats, perhaps.
Staggering Strike can't be had below level 9, and all the regular feats above that level are too important to the build to replace. Those feats you refer to are largely Vile feats, which are the only feats available if you serve an Elder Evil. If you stopped serving, and if you had the 4,900 gp for one cycle of Dark Chaos Shuffle, you could get something else at level 10 or 15. But this is a character scrimping by on less than 20% of standard Wealth by Level, so that's not feasible. There's also Fire Heritage, chosen because it was possible at a low level and thus not swappable for Staggering Strike even with shenanigans.

[Amoren]

Hmmm, that does limit things a bit.

[Ketiara]

@curmudgeon: Bowing In the dust after picking up my jaw... That's an awesome piece of work!

[Particle_Man]

After the above items you've still got 8,665 gp left. Buy yourself a warm blanky and a few meals.

Maybe a potion of fly or two?

[nedz]

With such poor AC, wouldn't it be better to abandon it altogether and grab a Minor Cloak of Displacement? There's no way that 24 AC at level 20 would provide anything close to 20% chance to avoid attacks.

Also, you mean deflection, not displacement bonus on the ring.

Well 5% is close to 20% :smalltongue:

[Lortharian Duin]

You'd give up 44% of the squares you can reach to limit a monster to its standard attack instead of its full attack? You'd also be giving up at least 44% of the movement-related AoOs you can make. With Opportunist and Savvy Rogue you also get AoOs against enemies you can reach simply because they attack your friends. And of course any time your reach exceeds the enemy's you'll get an AoO if they try to close on you. The build is designed so that using up the maximum of 8 unarmed hits allowed on AoOs is a real possibility each round.

Also if only your location can be targeted, greatly reducing the number of squares the monsters would have to try attacking before they hit you seems unwise. Plus most monsters use natural attacks, and dropping from 2 natural weapons on a full attack to 1 on a standard action attack isn't a relatively big hindrance.

Yes, it's just you. I like Staggering Strike quite a lot. I like getting an extra 8 hits in per round a lot more ─ and having greater reach than anything up to Gargantuan size is a good way to do.

Yes. In my experience, that Gargantuan beast over there attacking my group would be better off staggered and limited to one action. I doubt that his DM or any for that matter would allow OP one-shot stuff (by that I mean his belowed creations) with cheesy tactics anyway.

As I said, thats just me, I'm not much of a optimizer. Your build is quite awesome, but it is not my style. I prefer to roleplay somethin' that won't cause mirrors to crack just by lookin' at one.

[Particle_Man]

Going another route, I wonder how Vow of Poverty at 20th lvl looks vs. 150 000 gp of stuff to buy. Or even Vow of Poverty taken *after* reading 1 to 6 Very Awesome Magical Tomes to boost stats (or at least important stats) up a bit. Its not like you will miss a *few* exalted feats (after a while one runs out of nice ones to get anyhow).

[Curmudgeon]

Maybe a potion of fly or two?
That's a very spendthrift suggestion, which is something a Rogue on a budget can't handle. One such potion costs a whopping 750 gp. The alternative in a wand is just 225 gp per charge, and (as I noted in the build) the Dungeon Master's Guide specifically allows characters created above 1st level to acquire partially-charged magic items. And, of course, the single non-Rogue dip in the build was tailored to allowing use of most wands.

While the build leaves a moderate amount of gp for incidental expenses, it's probably better to leave most of that unspent if possible. The hope is that the character will be sooner able to afford a permanent solution to the 3D problem: a Feathered Wings graft (Fiend Folio, page 210) for 10,000 gp. The character's alignment is compatible with that option.

Up until that purchase can be made, the Rogue can use arrows to harry flying foes (for admittedly modest damage), and by remaining unseen and with great reach, hope to pound those aerial attackers when they come close to the ground.

[Little Brother]

SnipThat is gorgeous. Excellent work. Only thing I can find wrong with that: Wands, on a budget? Not such a good idea on a budget. GMW has duration in hours, a custom item 1-2/day should be sufficient.

I recommend the Feathered Wings graft. EX flight for 10K? Lovely.

If you had more money, I'd recommend more grafts, just because of their immense use(+4 inherent Str bonus for 40K? Plus, Corsair's Eyepatch and Eye of Flame gives you serious badass points), but you have, like, no money.

[Curmudgeon]

That is gorgeous. Excellent work. Only thing I can find wrong with that: Wands, on a budget? Not such a good idea on a budget. GMW has duration in hours, a custom item 1-2/day should be sufficient.
How is a Rogue going to achieve Craft Wondrous Item and produce a custom magic item? The rule is "anything goes from any book", and the books explain exactly how such items are created.

I recommend the Feathered Wings graft. EX flight for 10K? So do I, when the character can afford it. Of course, flight is a natural ability (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_naturalability&alpha=N), not Extraordinary.

[Little Brother]

How is a Rogue going to achieve Craft Wondrous Item and produce a custom magic item? The rule is "anything goes from any book", and the books explain exactly how such items are created.Buy it? Also, Fanged Ring could help, if he can find the cash for it.

So do I, when the character can afford it. Of course, flight is a natural ability (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_naturalability&alpha=N), not Extraordinary.Po-tay-toh, demonic flying soul-rending fist-wielding po-tah-toh.

[Curmudgeon]

Buy it?
You'd need to point to the book and page number for robertbevan's DM.

Also, Fanged Ring could help, if he can find the cash for it. Again, a nice item ─ but more than 7X as expensive as Bracers of Striking.

[only1doug]

<snip>
Magic Items (see Magic Item Compendium on pages 233-234 for "Adding/Improving Common Item Effects") (127,760 gp total):

+2 STR enhancement on some Arms/Hands/Waist item 4,000
+2 INT enhancement on some Head/Face item 4,000
+2 CHA enhancement on some Head/Shoulder item 4,000
+2 DEX enhancement on some Arms/Hands/Feet item 4,000
+2 WIS enhancement on some Head/Throat item 4,000
+6 AC bonus to Robe (from Scholar's Outfit) 36,000
+2 enhancement bonus to natural armor in Body or Torso item 8,000
+2 Ring of Protection 8,000
Monk's Belt 11,000
Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn, pages 155-156): gain Improved Unarmed Strike feat 1,310
Gemstone of Heavy Fortification (Draconomicon, page 83): 100% fortification 35,000
Goggles of Minute Seeing: +5 competence bonus to Search 1,250
Wand of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon, page 115) @ CL 16: 7,200 for 10 charges (see Dungeon Master's Guide on page 199): unarmed strike boosted to effective Colossal size for 16 hours

Spells purchased from NPCs (12,490 gp total):

Limited Wish to implant Gemstone of Heavy Fortification 2,410
Fox's Cunning to boost INT before taking Skill Mastery: 60
Greater Magic Fang @ CL 20 for +5 to unarmed strike attack and damage: 600
Permanency @ CL 20 for Greater Magic Fang: 8,500
Magic Mouth @ CL 25; "Look! Up in the sky! It's a whale!": 500
Magic Mouth @ CL 21; "Look! Up in the sky! It's a kraken!": 420
The Magic Mouth spells are sacrificial targets: designed to protect your lower-level Greater Magic Fang and Permanency spells against area dispels.After the above items you've still got 8,665 gp left. Buy yourself a warm blanky and a few meals.



Excellent work Curmudgeon, Wow...

As Curmudgeon has left you 8,665gp and not chosen any form of backpack or carrying device for you, you might want to spend some of the spare change he has left you an a magical bag, be it hewards handy haversack or a bag of holding.

[Killer Angel]

The alternative in a wand is just 225 gp per charge, and (as I noted in the build) the Dungeon Master's Guide specifically allows characters created above 1st level to acquire partially-charged magic items.

That's true, but it should be discussed beforehand with the DM: that road, is paved with "monk UMD user" sheets... :smallwink:

[Curmudgeon]

That's true, but it should be discussed beforehand with the DM
It already was.
so i'm going to be involved in a campaign that i'm not super excited about, but i'd like to give it a shot anyway.
DM says we're all to start with 20 levels, anything goes from any book. also, we get 150,000 gold to buy whatever we want with. That's why I cited the book name and page number.

[Killer Angel]

It already was. That's why I cited the book name and page number.

I've already had experiences with DMs saying "use freely these books", and then started picking things after the character was submitted.

But that's derailing.

Edit, to clarify: in our group, I'm the only DM that "concede" buying partially charged wands... and even in that case, i roll randomly the number of charges still left and from those i give the price.
Kinda "you're asking for a partially charged wand of mirror image... let's see, yes there is one, with 24 charges left. No, there is not a wand with precisely 15 charges, I'm sorry"

[robertbevan]

our DM is aiming for stupidly ridiculous. i copied and pasted curmudgeon's giant character post to an email which i sent to the DM for approval. he wrote back less than five minutes later saying it was awesome.

this is going to be an anything goes campaign. DM don't give a ****.

you know... i think i am going to have some fun tomorrow night. i'm feeling better about things.

curmudgeon, you've made one guy's friday night a little bit brighter.

[Killer Angel]

That definitely settles my issue, I think... :smalltongue:

Good for ya, have fun!

[only1doug]

Let us know how it goes!

[robertbevan]

DM is sick. game's canceled tonight. we'll have to wait another week.

[robertbevan]

so friday night i finally got a chance to play this guy. the game turned out pretty much as expected. most of us had gotten someone else to make our characters for us, so we weren't really sure how they worked. we had a random encounter with three colossal badgers, and that took about three hours... most of it players shuffling around through books trying to justify their ridiculous powers.

however, we did have fun. in some of the downtime i doodled what i thought my character might look like, given some of his physical quirks. this is what i came up with.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/endofthewor1d/2012-06-23145152.jpg