Rogue builds

[thorgrim29]

Hey, for an upcoming game a friend of mine who's new to DnD wants to play a rogue and I have little experience in rogues. What are good builds for a melee rogue that are mostly core based? (everything is pretty much allowed but I don't want to confuse him needlessly, but as a player is doing a swordsage dipping into a ToB class is fair game)

Thanks

[Gwendol]

Depends on what you want to do, and at what level.

If your friend wants to focus on sneak attacks he/she can dual class rogue and swashbuckler levels using the daring outlaw feat. Swashbuckler gets weapon finesse "for free". This build more or less needs TWF to shine, and will require some tactical planning in order to be able to flank and thus trigger SA damage.
To get more mileage out of sneak attacks take the Penetrating Strike ACF (half SA damage to constructs, undead, oozes, and others with no anatomy) in stead of trap sense.
The Craven feat is also often recommended.

Factotum, Beguiler, Spell thief all do the rogue thing fairly well, and may offer additional advantages from their spellcasting.

[thorgrim29]

I like the way you think... So get rogue 3/swashbuckler 2 by level 6 for daring outlaw, then possible take a swordsage level here and there for much fun. For feats.... He wants to be an elf so he only gets a feat at level 1. Two weapon fighting for sure. For level 3, craven or two-weapon defence I guess.

[Gwendol]

Well, if he will consider flaws he can get more feats at level one. Jack of all trades, improved initiative, able learner, or a luck-related feat (suits the scoundrel well).

[danzibr]

Well, if he will consider flaws he can get more feats at level one. Jack of all trades, improved initiative, able learner, or a luck-related feat (suits the scoundrel well).
All are great feats, but remember Able Learner is only for humans (you said Elf, right?)

But yeah, I definitely support picking up Craven with a flaw, and I would not suggest Two-Weapon Defense.

EDIT: Human and Doppleganger.

[Curmudgeon]

What are good builds for a melee rogue that are mostly core based?
There aren't any.

I like the Rogue class immensely, but the base class has many weak spots. Wizards of the Coast did get around to addressing most of them, but they did so generally one at a time, in a couple dozen different supplements. Don't try to limit your friend to an experience that's likely to be very disappointing.

[thorgrim29]

When I say mostly core... I mean not based on 35 splatbooks, 2 or 3 are fair game. Like the daring outlaw build that uses 3 books outside of core.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

For starters I would go: Human Rogue 1, Two-Weapon Fighting, Craven*. I would then follow up with Fighter 1 for Weapon Finesse at level 2. Follow the next 3 levels with straight Rogue then Prc into whatever. You can swap out the 4th level of Rogue for a level of Fighter if you need an extra feat.
*Non-core
(Rogue 1/Fighter 1(2)/Rogue 3(2))

This should give you enough power to survive a low powered campaign. And if you aren't playing one, I would suggest opening up more source material or having him reconsider class choice.

[JellyPooga]

There aren't any.

I like the Rogue class immensely, but the base class has many weak spots. Wizards of the Coast did get around to addressing most of them, but they did so generally one at a time, in a couple dozen different supplements. Don't try to limit your friend to an experience that's likely to be very disappointing.

Ooo, you curmudgeonly Curmudgeon! :smalltongue:

Don't listen to such negative talk; Rogue is a fine (though not upstanding!) class with solely Core materials. Sure the guy won't break the game with earth shattering magic or crush his enemies and see them driven before him, but he can still play an enjoyable game sneaking around and stabbing people in the back.

I've always found the 'Blind-side Flanker' Rogue to be fairly enjoyable in melee. He's not so much there to do lots of damage, but rather to be a nettling little so-and-so. Moderate Dexterity is all you need, to qualify for Feats later on, but your main focus is going to be Strength. Pick up Combat Expertise at the earliest opportunity and start investing in the "Improved X" Feats, such as Trip and Disarm. Later, you want to take Dodge, Mobility and (to veer away from Core briefly) Elusive Target. Weapon of choice? Spear or Quarterstaff (alternatively, you could go for Longspear and Spiked Gauntlet for both reach and close-work).
Now, you may be asking, wouldn't a Fighter be better suited to this kind of Feat-intensive build? The answer is, of course, yes, a Fighter would pick up more 'tricks' earlier on and be marginally better at performing them, but the Fighter would not have as many ranks in Tumble or Balance, would not have Evasion or Uncanny Dodge and would be doing moderate damage at best when he has to move (which he'll ideally be doing a lot to nettle as many opponents as possible). A Fighter would also be struggling to do much outside of the combat arena, whilst the Rogue is enjoying a bit more of the spotlight in the skills department.

As I say, he may not be the best solo combatant, but playing second fiddle to straight up combative types in melee is what the Rogue is all about anyway. You distract them, so he can finish them off.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The best option a core only rogue has is to get a ring of blinking and chuck acid flasks, and be completely worthless against 1/4 of the monster manual. Or go Arcane Trickster. Same deal, except spells replace flasks (or just use flasks) and Blink spell replaces ring of blinking, and you can at least chuck a command undead spell at ONE of the many foes immune to sneak attack.

Core rogues aren't really worth playing. I say this as someone who considers rogue his favorite class.



For melee SA, his most important feats are weapon finesse, TWF (and ITWF and GTWF), Craven, and Staggering Strike. Especially the last one. Without it, he will have trouble surviving melee at mid and high levels.

Penetrating Strike alt. class feature from Dungeonscape is an absolute must.

If he gets to level 6 or so and is feeling comfortable with the rules, consider dipping Swordsage for 2 levels around then to get Assassin's Stance, a ton of great maneuvers (Cloak of Deception, Distracting Ember, Flashing Sun, and Sudden Leap, to name a few), some other stance (island of blades or child of shadow are great), +1 initiative, free weapon focus, and the option of taking Shadow Blade and/or Adaptive Style feats afterwards. He might also like Gloom Razor tactical feat.

[JellyPooga]

For melee SA, his most important feats are weapon finesse, etc.

I would have to disagree. If you're playing a melee rogue, Weapon Finesse is a waste of a precious precious Feat. It's only really useful if you want to play a melee/ranged Rogue. If you're a melee Rogue, focus Strength and only get as much Dex as needed for Feat requirements. Sure, the TWF line of Feats have a hefty Dex requirement, but TWF is not the be-all of melee Rogue builds unless all you're looking at is purely dealing damage. But, as you say, a damage dealing melee Rogue is useless against approximately 1/4 of the MM because of the great many things immune to SA.

What is it about Wizards that makes them so good? Is it Fireball? No. Its's battlefield control and utility. Rogue is the mundane equivalent. They've the manoeuverability, speed and stealth to be it the place they need to be, the mind-set to do it (most Fighter-types tend to be a bit too gung-ho!) and if you give them the right tools, they can cripple their opponents defences for his damage dealing friends to mop up. Sneak Attack is a nice addition to help them boost their damage a little bit when they really need it, but it's not what playing a melee Rogue is about. Sneak Attack is for sneaks and assassins, where melee Rogue is about dirty tricks and blindsiding your opponent with fancy footwork.


Core rogues aren't really worth playing. I say this as someone who considers rogue his favorite class.

This is a sentiment that I truly loathe. If you like the Rogue that much, then you're really missing a trick because you're too focused on what the Rogue can't do instead of seeing what he can do with the materials available. Yes, splat books give you access to a bunch of stuff to make Sneak Attack more useful, but none (well, very little) of that helps with the problem of creatures immune to it. Outside of that, there's really not a lot of love in the splat for the pure melee Rogue (there is some, yes, but not a lot).

[eggs]

I wouldn't say core Rogue builds don't work, but they more resemble shopping lists than level progressions.

(So pretty much like any noncaster outside core, but with UMD.)

[danzibr]

Alternatively, go a Rogue with really high Str. I made a Goliath Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer once.

[Acanous]

If you're using Pathfinder as a suppliment, I've seen some pretty good TWF thug builds that focus on fearlocking.
Most things immune to SA are also immune to fear, but it gives the rogue another trick.

[ThiagoMartell]

Be careful with the Craven feat and your already sucky Will save.

[Duke of URL]

If you're going to stick with primarily Rogue levels, Savvy Rogue is an amazing feat, paired with Crippling Strike -- you can deal the STR damage even to SA-immune enemies as long as you fulfill the other SA conditions.

Taking the whole Shadowdancer PrC (i.e., 1 level) for Hide in Plain Sight will help set up those conditions, and of course a 1-level Swordsage dip (I suggest at CL 9, so you can get 3rd level maneuvers) does wonders for rogues with the right maneuver selection.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I love rogues, but I am very frustrated by their weaknesses.

options:
1.) Arcane Trickster. Lends a lot of versatility to a class that needs it.

2.) introducing ALL the splatbooks. theres a lot there for rogues, but it requires quite a bit of cherry picking.

3.) a dip into wizard or Cleric. gives spells, use of wands and scroll without chance of failure. I prefer Cleric, because it also gives access to armor and weapons that can help a rogue. There are several feats and even a PrC that helps join the two if you are looking for mroe than a dip. (Sacred Outlaw feat, can't remember the PrC.)

Lots of people will recommend TWF, this is often a trap for a rogue, who is already rolling with 3/4 BAB. A single weapon and mithril buckler is often more effective for an extended fight. This also leaves a hand open for wands and scrolls.

Not core, but (dungeonscape) allows for a wand bracer (access to 5 wands with a swift action) and wand chambers (allow an extra wand to be "wielded" in a weapon or shield).

Again, this blends well with a dip into a spellcasting class.

a Cleric 1/Rogue X makes you a tumbling combat medic should you be fighting something Sneak Attack won't be effective against. you can also wear a breastplate this way. you'll have oodles of wands at your fingertips.

Its making the most out of a bad situation. The rogue being the situation.

[Xaragos]

Personally I like to go 2wpn fighting with rogues.

Race: Whisper gnome (too many awesome racial abilities to count)

Feats (not in order of priority):
Craven is a must have feat
Weapon Finese (since you would go dex)
Two Wpn Fighting
Imp Two Wpn Fighting
Dodge and then Titan Fighting
Greater two wpn fighting
Staggering Strike
Vexing Flanker
EPIC: 25 Dex --> Perfect two weapon fighting

Think about feats and such that synergize with flanking

Consider alternate class builds: AKA Penetrating Strike (able to SA non SA enemies), Disruptive Strike (give up one SA to force -5 to AC. Very good for multi attacks because you then basically get + 5 to ever other attack in a round for you and your partners)

There are a slew of PrCs that are fun to dip into based on your flavor. I really like the Assassin or Avenger variant. Maybe Invisible Blade, Nightsong Enforcer, or Chameleon.

And really take a look at the skill trick options, if you are able to use those in the campaign. There are some real gems to help open up an opponent to being flat footed, stand up from prone without provoking aoo, bonus to knowledge skills, all sorts of goodness.


Note: The Rogue is hurt in the BAB department but consider the fact that as a melee rogue you are going to be in flank most of the time +2 without feats to attack and/or hitting flat footed AC combined with the Disruptive Strike variant (-5AC) and you easily make up for the loss(grants a +7 to your subsequent attacks). Add in boots of Haste or have a party member cast that on you. Weapon effects (Wraithstrike) that make your attacks vs touch ac. Plus attacking umpteen times a round is good no matter what. Think of the dip into monk for flurry. It can get silly.

Hope this helps!

[JellyPooga]

stuff

I totally agree with the bit about TWF; penalties to hit are not a thing Rogues need!

However, dipping a spellcasting class (unless it's part of your character concept) is not a 'must have', by any means. The UMD skill gives you access to wands and scrolls, which is enough to be a 'tumbling medic' in a pinch or for a bit of extra utility, especially if there's an item crafting wizard or cleric in the party anyway. Sure there's a chance of failure, but it's starts getting pretty slim after about Level 4 or 5 (let's say 8 ranks UMD with a +2 Cha mod gives you a 50/50 chance of activating any wand, everything after that is just tasting of gravy).

Likewise, the extra armour proficiency isn't really that neccesary. A Chain Shirt is enough AC for any Rogue worth his salt and unless that Breastplate is Mithril (or a similar material), you're losing out on your class features, like Evasion. I personally prefer to wield a 2-H weapon at lower levels, where the bonus to things like disarming is a boon and the little bit of extra damage means the difference between ending a fight and another round of combat. Then at later levels a 1-H weapon and your favourite wand is the order of the day (buckler optional, but at higher levels, the extra point af AC starts looking a bit redundant).

Moving outside of the PHB, I've always liked the Thief-Acrobat for my melee rogues. Sure, you lose Sneak Attack, but you gain a lot in the way of defensive features which more than make up for the lack of heavier armour, whilst increasing your manoeuverability ten-fold.

If you want to 'dip' something for extra utility, then I'd prefer 4 levels of Warlock to Wizard or Cleric, mostly for Deceive Item. With that, you also get 3 Invocations from a list that is pretty tasty for any Rogue and you can still knock around in armour doing it too (unlike the Wizard). Plus, of course, you can Sneak Attack with an Eldritch Blast...pew! pew!

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Stuff!

I don't think a spellcaster dip is "necessary" by any means, it just adds to the versatility. IF the OP had access to things besides core there are several strictly better things to do with your levels and feats as a rogue. Just core? not so much.

UMD is nice and all, but if you fail while activating an item, you can't use it for 24 hours. That sucks. It also doesnt really come online until level 10 or so, which is a long time. a dip works from level 2. UMD is superior in the long run though, and I don't think most campaigns last long enough to see a UMD with 95% success rates.

Also, yes, Med. armor does render evasion useless, but a breastplate and a buckler make for a slightly tougher rogue during those early levels when you really need it. The increased Will save also helps in that department. IN later levels when you have more tricks in your utility belt (blink, Blur, spiderclimb, gold for other sweet items) switching to mithril breastplate or mithril chainshirt is very much a good idea.

In my experience i have found Evasion on a rogue slightly superfluous, because their often very high Reflex saves get them by regardless of Evasion. Of course, sometimes it can save your bacon. However, (again in my opinion) med. armor wil lsave your bacon far mroe often than Evasion.

So yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you by any means, just explaining my thought processes behind my suggestions.

[JellyPooga]

UMD is nice and all, but if you fail while activating an item, you can't use it for 24 hours.

Just thought I'd point out that this is only the case on a Natural 1 failure. Normal failure doesn't even expend a charge of your wand! It's also the same DC to activate a Staff, which when they start coming online, your versatility gets another bump.

I've had some pretty reliable success with UMD as low as 4th level before (at lower than that, it's very choppy), but I can see what you're saying; the 'dip' is guaranteed, UMD never will be (outside of taking Warlock or Artificer).

On the whole armour thing, I've always preferred to maintain my mobility over the couple of extra points of AC it gives. Staying in Light armour means that if you have a trigger happy wizard in the party, you don't have to worry too much about getting caught in the crossfire (and as good as non-blasty wizards are, I've yet to see one that doesn't enjoy throwing fireballs around when they have the chance!). Still, if your wizards aren't so trigger happy and you're Dex isn't up to scratch, then I guess the extra AC is probably preferable!

[thorgrim29]

Once again, it's not just core, anything is allowed, but I don't want to overwhelm a new player with 36 splatbooks. 2 or 3 is fair game.

Right now I think I'm going to recommend he goes for a TWF daring outlaw, with probably mostly rogue levels as he's going to need those skill points.

[ThiagoMartell]

Once again, it's not just core, anything is allowed, but I don't want to overwhelm a new player with 36 splatbooks. 2 or 3 is fair game.

Right now I think I'm going to recommend he goes for a TWF daring outlaw, with probably mostly rogue levels as he's going to need those skill points.

I'd recommend more Swashbuckler than Rogue, actually. If you're going Daring Outlaw, staying in Rogue sounds counterproductive. I mean, if you want to be a skillmonkey per se, you shouldn't be a Daring Outlaw. You should be spending your feats on skillmonkey stuff (Dungeonscape and PHB2 both have a few good feats for skillmonkeys, but they are usually neglected in the forums because it's not combat).