Another Addition To The Tippyverse

[Rubik]

Okay, here's the trick.

1.) Place a mirror of opposition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#mirrorofOpposition) in a 5' x 10' pit.

2.) Place some sort of barrier around half of the mirror -- one that is JUST large enough for a Medium creature to squeeze into.

3.) Use a Quintessence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm) trap to fill up the pit, and then cover it with a tarp or some other pliable object that blocks LoE to the rest of the room.

4.) Create a demiplane made of and filled with quintessence, preferably a fast-time demiplane (so it will grow really quickly).

5.) Craft some insanely expensive items (or grab some artifacts) that standard-issue Wish traps can't account for, and toss them in a bag of holding a creature you summon carries.

6.) Use some teleportation effect (such as shadowhand gloves) to teleport the creature from #5 into the space next to the mirror of opposition. Since the mirror is not completely immersed in quintessence it is still functional; however, since the only place for the evil clone to appear is within the quintessence (as liquids, such as water, do not block LoS or LoE), it will appear completely coated in quintessence instantaneously.

7.) Fish out the clone and the magic items you've just created, and use a Gate or other teleportation magic to send the quintessence-coated clone to the demiplane after removing the items from it.

8.) Scrape off the quintessence and teleport the creature to safety.

9.) >>> ??? <<<

10.) Profit!

[Morph Bark]

Free Belts of Magnificence for everyone!

[Ingus]

Can you say "No clone has been harmed by this proceding"? :smalltongue:

[Suddo]

Interesting question. If an Artificier eats a item created in this way does he get to keep said essence after the death of the clone.

[Rubik]

Interesting question. If an Artificier eats a item created in this way does he get to keep said essence after the death of the clone.Well, the clone never dies and isn't 'defeated' (at least, not in the time stream -- by the time it appears it's already too late and it's in stasis), so it's not really an issue here.

But I really have no idea. I think he'd probably end up with a mundane version of the magic item since all the XP likely disappears.

[Suddo]

Well, the clone never dies and isn't 'defeated' (at least, not in the time stream -- by the time it appears it's already too late and it's in stasis), so it's not really an issue here.

But I really have no idea. I think he'd probably end up with a mundane version of the magic item since all the XP likely disappears.

Well I'm wondering if he eats the magic item before the clone dies and retains the essence, the level 5 ability, then kills the clone. I would think he retains the essence.

[Analytica]

The mirror is really quite poorly worded. I want to say that so magic item should be able to repeatedly create more magic items of higher value, but then I am sure someone will say that this is a strict RAW discussion.

And going by strict RAW...
- Nothing says the duplicate must be by the mirror, just that a duplicate comes into being.
- Also, it just says the duplicate immediately attacks. It doesn't say that it will keep attacking or anything like that.
- Defeat is not defined. If this trick works, then being captured in quintessence is not enough to have you count as defeated, nor being imprisoned in a demiplane. As such, being mindraped might not be defeat either. Thus, just put a contingency on yourself with a mindrape in case you ever feel like harming someone who looks like you (after all, the duplicate has your magic which presumably includes your contingencies). Then look in the mirror four times each day, which is its maximum, and create as many artifact-carrying yourselves as you want. Each will disappear if it is ever "defeated", whatever that means, or if you are.

[Rubik]

The mirror is really quite poorly worded.This is rather true.


And going by strict RAW...
- Nothing says the duplicate must be by the mirror, just that a duplicate comes into being.But unless an effect says otherwise, effects must have line of effect as the default standard. With the tarp over the pit, and the only area clear of quintessence being taken up by the original creature, the clone has nowhere it can go but the quintessence. That's why I specified the tarp over the pit.


- Also, it just says the duplicate immediately attacks. It doesn't say that it will keep attacking or anything like that.This is true enough, I suppose, though I imagine most people would read it as, 'it attacks the original until one is dead or defeated'.


- Defeat is not defined. If this trick works, then being captured in quintessence is not enough to have you count as defeated, nor being imprisoned in a demiplane. As such, being mindraped might not be defeat either. Thus, just put a contingency on yourself with a mindrape in case you ever feel like harming someone who looks like you (after all, the duplicate has your magic which presumably includes your contingencies). Then look in the mirror four times each day, which is its maximum, and create as many artifact-carrying yourselves as you want. Each will disappear if it is ever "defeated", whatever that means, or if you are.Well, 'defeat' is likely the standard syntax version, which means imprisonment normally WOULD count as defeat. However, it's outside the timestream because of it, and so it's unable to discorporate due to literal lack of time to do so.

I imagine the other bits you suggested would count as defeat, meaning it would immediately dissolve.

[Analytica]

Well, 'defeat' is likely the standard syntax version, which means imprisonment normally WOULD count as defeat. However, it's outside the timestream because of it, and so it's unable to discorporate due to literal lack of time to do so.

I see. That is consistent, yes. However, you rely on the property of being outside the timestream preventing it from discorporating. If something cannot discorporate while in quintessence, can something actually manifest within quintessence? Or will it instead pop into existence as soon as there is time in the target location, i.e. when the quintessence has been drained away?

EDIT: For that matter, can you actually teleport something out of quintessence if discorporation takes time?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I do see one small hiccup with this plan: I'm almost positive that the surface of a liquid does block line of effect. I can't site a page number but if I had to guess either dmg or stormwrack.

[Rubik]

I see. That is consistent, yes. However, you rely on the property of being outside the timestream preventing it from discorporating. If something cannot discorporate while in quintessence, can something actually manifest within quintessence? Or will it instead pop into existence as soon as there is time in the target location, i.e. when the quintessence has been drained away?Outside things (such as the mirror) can place things inside the quintessence, since you can actually reach in without being affected (aside from damage, of course). For instance, you can place a key within a blob of it just fine. I don't see why having the mirror insert a body within it instead of a person doing so would change anything.


EDIT: For that matter, can you actually teleport something out of quintessence if discorporation takes time?The person with the magic items (and whose clone it is) isn't actually coated in quintessence. He's in a solid bubble adjacent to the wall the mirror is affixed to, with half the mirror inside the bubble and the other half of the mirror extending past that bubble and inside the quintessence. Since the bubble isn't actually surrounded on all sides, the time-stop effect isn't in effect.

[Aquillion]

I would argue that immersion in Quintessence counts as defeat for these purposes (it's totally helpless and unable to accomplish its goals, indefinitely.) The duplicate itself might not wink out because time isn't passing for it, but as soon as you retrieve the items, time starts to pass for them and they'll wink out like normal.

However, this does make me think of a variation.

What you need is some sort of creature or monster that is:

1. Immortal, or so long-lived as to make it irrelevant,
2. Totally under your control,
3. Incapable of defeating itself, and,
4. Capable of fighting eternally without starving to death or whatever.

Give it the items, put it in front of the mirror, steal the items from it and the duplicate somehow, leave the two of them to fight each other until the end of time.

(Some people may argue that "incapable of defeating itself" means that the duplicate is functionally defeated as soon as it appears. In that case, choose a creature that has a vanishingly, impossibly small but not nonexistent chance of defeating itself, low enough that your items will, statistically, last longer than you could possibly need them for.)

[Rubik]

I would argue that immersion in Quintessence counts as defeat for these purposes (it's totally helpless and unable to accomplish its goals, indefinitely.) The duplicate itself might not wink out because time isn't passing for it, but as soon as you retrieve the items, time starts to pass for them and they'll wink out like normal.

However, this does make me think of a variation.

What you need is some sort of creature or monster that is:

1. Immortal, or so long-lived as to make it irrelevant,
2. Totally under your control,
3. Incapable of defeating itself, and,
4. Capable of fighting eternally without starving to death or whatever.

Give it the items, put it in front of the mirror, steal the items from it and the duplicate somehow, leave the two of them to fight each other until the end of time.Gate in a fiendish tarrasque? Just add Reserves of Strength to break your HD cap.

[Aquillion]

Another idea:

It can be used to duplicate consumable items, then rapidly steal and use them before the fight ends. While they're tricky to use "rapidly", tomes are a tempting target. Even just with a conventional usage, you could have your buddy carry a bunch of stat-enhancing tomes, walk in front of the mirror, steal and toss you the tomes from the duplicate, then prolong the fight for a really long time (possibly using demiplane tricks) while you study the tomes and enhance your stats.

Repeat with any other valuable consumable item. Items of Wish are another good target. (Just be careful that your duplicate doesn't use them, which is a major risk.)

[Rubik]

I do see one small hiccup with this plan: I'm almost positive that the surface of a liquid does block line of effect. I can't site a page number but if I had to guess either dmg or stormwrack.Not if the mirror is already partially submerged.

...like this one is.

After all, you can still cast spells and use items underwater, so it's not like it acts as it would if you were, say, coated in a layer of stone.

[Darrin]

I think you can pull off a similar trick without the mirror and without the quintessence with just an astral projection trap. Or a set of FOWP: ivory goats, one of which gets astral projection as an SLA at will.

[Analytica]

Outside things (such as the mirror) can place things inside the quintessence, since you can actually reach in without being affected (aside from damage, of course). For instance, you can place a key within a blob of it just fine. I don't see why having the mirror insert a body within it instead of a person doing so would change anything.

I think I would argue that it is the mirror that discorporates the duplicate (or more specifically, stops projecting the duplicate, since the duplicate only exists because the magic of the mirror sustains it for a time). It could start projecting the duplicate despite the target area being outside of time (causing the duplicate to appear relative to the timeframe of the mirror) and could likewise stop projecting the duplicate into the timeless area.


The person with the magic items (and whose clone it is) isn't actually coated in quintessence. He's in a solid bubble adjacent to the wall the mirror is affixed to, with half the mirror inside the bubble and the other half of the mirror extending past that bubble and inside the quintessence. Since the bubble isn't actually surrounded on all sides, the time-stop effect isn't in effect.

Ah, I see. Not a problem there, then. And the duplicate cannot manifest inside the bubble, because multiple creatures cannot occupy the same square?

[Rubik]

I think I would argue that it is the mirror that discorporates the duplicate (or more specifically, stops projecting the duplicate, since the duplicate only exists because the magic of the mirror sustains it for a time). It could start projecting the duplicate despite the target area being outside of time (causing the duplicate to appear relative to the timeframe of the mirror) and could likewise stop projecting the duplicate into the timeless area.Well, even if the mirror stops projecting the body in the quintessence would remain there, since it already exists outside of the standard time-frame.

So if that's the case, give the owner of the clone a second mirror of opposition (which gets cloned), then once the clone is in the quintessence, shove the mirror on the wall into it too. That way they're both outside the time stream, and removing any pieces from the quintessence (other than the mirror and the clone) would remain effectual. I think.


Ah, I see. Not a problem there, then. And the duplicate cannot manifest inside the bubble, because multiple creatures cannot occupy the same square?Two can squeeze into the same space, but only two, and it's not a full 5' space; the bubble is literally only large enough for the one creature with a very tiny amount of room for the bag of holding, and a little breathing room. There's literally not enough volume left over for a second body.

[Analytica]

So if that's the case, give the owner of the clone a second mirror of opposition (which gets cloned), then once the clone is in the quintessence, shove the mirror on the wall into it too. That way they're both outside the time stream, and removing any pieces from the quintessence (other than the mirror and the clone) would remain effectual. I think.

That... should work, yes. The event that the mirror stops projecting the clone cannot take place until it leaves the quintessence. Assuming that the projection itself doesn't require a common time frame, but that is not explicitly stated by the item description, so sure.