I'm nuking Two Weapon Fighting

[DeadAggressor]

So I'm playing a character that I plan on going all the way to G. TWF, but I want to make sure I'm doing the reductions to my hit correctly. I'm search the forums and the net, but I can't seem to wrap my mind on how it actually works. I've designed my PC up to 20, which he will have a BAB of 16/11/6/1. So if I take a full round action while having G.TWF and say I have no bonuses to hit except BAB, that would make my off hand attacks 14/6/-4/ for a FRA of 16/14/11/6/6/-4/1 right?

[Invader]

So I'm playing a character that I plan on going all the way to G. TWF, but I want to make sure I'm doing the reductions to my hit correctly. I'm search the forums and the net, but I can't seem to wrap my mind on how it actually works. I've designed my PC up to 20, which he will have a BAB of 16/11/6/1. So if I take a full round action while having G.TWF and say I have no bonuses to hit except BAB, that would make my off hand attacks 14/6/-4/ for a FRA of 16/14/11/6/6/-4/1 right?

It also depends on what sized weapon you're using in each hand.

[Flickerdart]

You have a -2/-2 penalty for holding a light weapon in your off-hand, then a -5 penalty and a -10 penalty for extra attacks with your off-hand. So your routine would look like +14/+14 (the main attacks with your weapons) /+9/+9 (the secondary attacks) /+4/+4 (the tertiary attacks) /-1 (the fourth attack with just your primary weapon) for a total of 14/14/9/9/4/4/-1.

[Namfuak]

You only get one extra attack per round at your highest BAB with a penalty, while taking a penalty on all other attacks. You do not get an offhand attack per iterative.

EDIT: Missed Imp/Greater in the OP.

[Flickerdart]

You only get one extra attack per round at your highest BAB with a penalty, while taking a penalty on all other attacks. You do not get an offhand attack per iterative.
You do if you have Improved and Greater TWF.

[Amoren]

You have a -2/-2 penalty for holding a light weapon in your off-hand, then a -5 penalty and a -10 penalty for extra attacks with your off-hand. So your routine would look like +14/+14 (the main attacks with your weapons) /+9/+9 (the secondary attacks) /+4/+4 (the tertiary attacks) /-1 (the fourth attack with just your primary weapon) for a total of 14/14/11/11/6/6/-1.

Essentially this, provided you're using a light weapon in your off hand with the two-weapon fighting feat.

[Ceaon]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting

Full Round Attack if off-hand is light:
Main Hand: +14/+9/+4/-1 (-2 penalty)
Off-Hand: +14/+9/+4 (-2 penalty)

Full Round Attack if off-hand is not light:
Main Hand: +12/+7/+2/-3 (-4 penalty)
Off-Hand: +12/+7/+2 (-4 penalty)

[Keld Denar]

Assuming a light offhand, you would have:

+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1

The second attack in each pair is the offhand attack, and there is no offhand for the quaternary iterative.

[Flickerdart]

Oversized Two-weapon Fighting fixes that well enough.

[DeadAggressor]

So when does the -5 and -10 from the Improved and Greater versions kick in? Because so far I'm just seeing a 2 subtracted from everything.

[Ashtagon]

If you're using nukes for TWF, who cares what your attack roll penalty is? You'll still "hit" :smallcool:

[Urpriest]

So when does the -5 and -10 from the Improved and Greater versions kick in? Because so far I'm just seeing a 2 subtracted from everything.

If you didn't do the -5 and -10 you would have

+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1

The -5 and -10 from ImpTWF and GTWF are what put the new attacks at the same attack bonus as your old iteratives.

[DeadAggressor]

By nuking I meant I was overthinking it.

[DeadAggressor]

If you didn't do the -5 and -10 you would have

+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1

The -5 and -10 from ImpTWF and GTWF are what put the new attacks at the same attack bonus as your old iteratives.

My BAB at 20 if I didn't take any of the TWF feats is 16/11/6/1. I know I get a -2 to all attacks due to dual wielding 2 daggers, but how does that account for the -5 and -10? You see how I'm nuking it now? Because if I go off what you all are saying then my second and third off hand swing only have -2 removed instead of -3/-5 and -8/-10.

[Flickerdart]

No, your second off-hand swing is made with a total -7 penalty (-2 for dual-wield, -5 for Improved TWF) and your third off-hand swing is made with a total -12 penalty (-2 for dual-wield, -10 for Greater TWF).

[DeadAggressor]

Ok that's starting to make more sense, but where does it say the second and third off hand attacks use your highest BAB and not your second and third BABs?

[Rejakor]

The -5 and -10 thing is your normal iterative penalty. Your iteratives start at +16 (your first attack in the full attack) and then go to +11 (second attack) and then go to +6 (third attack).

The greater improved TWF feats are just giving you extra attacks at the same bonus as your normal iteratives (-2, because TWF gives -2 to ALL attacks that round) but wording it in a really stupid way. Just ignore the -5 and -10 bit, and use the numbers people have plugged in up above ^.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ok that's starting to make more sense, but where does it say the second and third off hand attacks use your highest BAB and not your second and third BABs?

You don't have second or third BABs, you only have one BAB and you get iterative attacks at a lesser bonus.


If you make a full attack while wielding an offhand weapon, you get one extra attack at your highest BAB, but you take the appropriate penalties (in this case a -2) to every attack you make until your next turn.

Improved TWF states that you also get a second offhand attack, at a -5 penalty from the first offhand attack.

Greater TWF gives you a third offhand attack, at a -10 penalty from your first offhand attack.

[Kish]

Ok that's starting to make more sense, but where does it say the second and third off hand attacks use your highest BAB and not your second and third BABs?
There's no such thing as "highest BAB" or "second or third BAB." Your BAB in your example is 16, period. Because it is 16, ignoring dual-wielding for the sake of this example, you get a second attack at a -5 penalty, a third attack at a -10 penalty, and a fourth attack at a -15 penalty, none of which change the fact that your BAB is 16.

[Urpriest]

My BAB at 20 if I didn't take any of the TWF feats is 16/11/6/1. I know I get a -2 to all attacks due to dual wielding 2 daggers, but how does that account for the -5 and -10? You see how I'm nuking it now? Because if I go off what you all are saying then my second and third off hand swing only have -2 removed instead of -3/-5 and -8/-10.

Oh, I see the problem. You're reading the phrase "Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6." as reducing all penalties from all TWF feats. But it has nothing to do with the penalties from TWF feats, and everything to do with the penalties from TWFing without feats.

Let's build this up from scratch, since that's the easiest way to understand the situation.

Suppose you have no feats, and want to TWF. We'll ignore BAB for now, focusing only on penalties.

You get two attacks, at -6 for the main hand and -10 for the off hand. If you're wielding a light off-hand, these penalties drop to -4 and -8 respectively.

Taking two-weapon fighting reduces your main hand penalty by 2, and your off-hand penalty by 6. This means your default penalties are -4 for the main hand and -4 for the off hand, or -2/-2 for a light weapon.

Now let's add later feats into the mix. Suppose you have Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Without this feat, you're getting an extra attack with your off hand at -2. With it, you're getting another extra attack at -2-5=-7. So if your main hand attacks are +6/+1, then they drop to +4/-1 and you're now getting off-hand attacks at +4/-1 (6-2 and 6-7, respectively).

Greater just does the same thing for -10, so I won't go over it.

By the way, I've never heard the word nuking used the way you're using it. I'm curious now. What community uses it that way?

[ThiagoMartell]

Ok that's starting to make more sense, but where does it say the second and third off hand attacks use your highest BAB and not your second and third BABs?

In the description of Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting.

[DeadAggressor]

I'm in the military, we use it all the time when someone is seriously over thinking something that is so simple (hence why I said I was nuking this). Now that you've explained the BAB system (I never understood why I was getting more attacks, just that I was every 5 increases to my BAB). Thanks for the help everyone.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm in the military, we use it all the time when someone is seriously over thinking something that is so simple (hence why I said I was nuking this). Now that you've explained the BAB system (I never understood why I was getting more attacks, just that I was every 5 increases to my BAB). Thanks for the help everyone.

Never heard that slang in eight years in the mil...I suspect it's much more localized slang, and I admit, I also had no idea what you were talking about.