On Liches

[Ranting Fool]

Granted the answer to this question can is "No you must be a caster level 11" or "Just hand wave it, you're DM" but I was wondering about having Non-Magic using Liches (Getting a caster to craft their Phylactery for them) and making sure it is "Fair"

If you can get a caster high enough to make your Phylactery you'd still pay the XP cost.

Should it still be a CR + 2 adjustment? Would the Lich immunities and DR be a greater bonus to a non caster?

Other Penalties? How balanced is the Lich template (In your opinions)

Note: This is less for my players to do and more for BBEG's

[Urpriest]

There are already templates that do this, like Death Knight. I'd use them.

[Suddo]

Why do you want a Lich? There are several undead templates that you could use instead. Is it the fact it has a phylactery and that creates interesting mechanics. I might suggest making him be a duskblade sense its a not that much of a "caster". You could also make a caster that loses his spells via a curse or something that is a Lich.

[137beth]

There's nothing wrong with allowing your BBEG to become a lich. A lot of its bonuses are better in melee than at a range, which might benefit a noncaster more. On the other hand, it does get +2 to Int/Cha/Wis, which gives no benefit to a martial character. I'd say it probably balances out, and you can stick with Cr +2. Note that if your campaign allows phylacteries to be repaired, your BBEG would not be able to repair it on his own without a caster, so take this into account.

[Rejakor]

Lich template isn't terrible, but neither is it great. Being undead is kind of a hindrance for a beatstick, as your HP takes a massive dive even with corpsecrafter.

Dry Lich, however, is a whole nother can of beans.

That said, +2 LA for being immune to crits and reforming if you die and whoever kills you doesn't bother wiping your phylactery isn't overpowered by any meaning of the word, caster or not.

[Ranting Fool]

Why do you want a Lich? There are several undead templates that you could use instead. Is it the fact it has a phylactery and that creates interesting mechanics. I might suggest making him be a duskblade sense its a not that much of a "caster". You could also make a caster that loses his spells via a curse or something that is a Lich.

Was just flicking through the MM and I quite like the idea of a BBEG who has issues staying "Dead" that said having a high level caster would be a hindrance to my plot at this point

But you're right a Duskblade/Beguiler would allow anyone to make their own phylactery.

Are there any phylactery type spells or items that could be used by a mid - low level evil-do-er? (7-11 CR)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

On crafting magic items, multiple characters can contribute different portions of an item's prerequisites to craft it, though everyone contributing must be present for the entire crafting process. One character can have the right item creation feat, another can have the required spells, and the last can contribute the item's caster level. The character who contributes the caster level is the one who spends the XP:

Reference: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel)
from Caster Level
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

from Prerequisites
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.


You have to be designated as the creator for your own phylactery. That means you need to have a caster level of 11 to become a lich, there's no other way of doing it. Note that spell-like abilities give you a caster level, and can be used to qualify for item creation feats and even allow a character with no spellcasting class levels to become a lich. A Lesser Aasimar or Lesser Tiefling gets a spell-like ability at a caster level equal to its class levels, as do Drow.

[Urpriest]

Was just flicking through the MM and I quite like the idea of a BBEG who has issues staying "Dead" that said having a high level caster would be a hindrance to my plot at this point

But you're right a Duskblade/Beguiler would allow anyone to make their own phylactery.

Are there any phylactery type spells or items that could be used by a mid - low level evil-do-er? (7-11 CR)

Lower level characters can be Ghosts, which also have some trouble staying dead. Vampires of course are another classic example.

[Sr.medusa]

I once play a Paladin 1/Blackward 10/Fighter 3 with the feat that gives you +4 to CL at maximum of your HD turned to lich, it was funny ride a Nightmare pretend to be skeletor

[Mithril Leaf]

One thing that may be a consideration for high psionic worlds is the psionic lich template from Hyperconscious. It lacks level adjustement and psions aren't technically spellcasters. Requires 11 manifester levels and the same gold though.

[Silva Stormrage]

I would suggest using a pathfinder template for this, The Grave Knight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/graveknight-cr-2) Its essentially a melee lich with bonuses focused on it. You don't need to change much to make it work in 3.5. Make the hd d12s and replace channel resistance with turn resistance.

[Kuulvheysoon]

There's also the Spectral Savant (CPsi, a sort of psionic lich/vampire) and the Grim Psion.

[Piggy Knowles]

I once play a Paladin 1/Blackward 10/Fighter 3 with the feat that gives you +4 to CL at maximum of your HD turned to lich, it was funny ride a Nightmare pretend to be skeletor

Similar to this, I had a lich Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 7 with Practiced Spellcaster as a BBEG a while back. She was fun when she appeared, but the campaign ended before she got too many appearances.

[Pyromancer999]

There's also the Spectral Savant (CPsi, a sort of psionic lich/vampire)

This option isn't good, because you can't regain power points after the transformation unless you drain them. And if you drain them, even willingly, from good(and I think neutral?) creatures three times, then you become irrevocably evil, which is only an issue if you're not already evil, but there's still the non-refreshing pool issue in campaigns low in psionic foes.

[CTrees]

I would suggest using a pathfinder template for this, The Grave Knight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/graveknight-cr-2) Its essentially a melee lich with bonuses focused on it. You don't need to change much to make it work in 3.5. Make the hd d12s and replace channel resistance with turn resistance.

It also has the potential for hilarity if one of the PCs tries to wear the armor, which you just don't get with a normal lich.

[lunar2]

be a martial character that has a caster level for something. fallen paladin+ blackguard; monk (if you don't mind having 22 HD, which shouldn't be a problem when they're monk levels. the upside is, you have a decent fortitude save compared to most undead)/ any race or template that gives SLAs, etc.

[Wise Green Bean]

If you want an enemy who won't stay dead, just give them an artificer cohort to stay hidden in the background and cast resurrection off a scroll. They can cut off a hand, scribe a scroll of regenerate to give the BBEG a new one, and keep the dead hand as a chunk of the guy to cast on.

[Sheogoroth]

There's a Green Ronin book, The Secret College of Necromancy, that outlines a handful of methods for lich creation. It could be done.

I remember reading a 3.0 book a long time ago that had some rules for variant melee Liches that could be created, but I can't recall the name of it.
Other than that, you could just turn a fighter into a Mohrg.

[TuggyNE]

If you want an enemy who won't stay dead, just give them an artificer cohort to stay hidden in the background and cast resurrection off a scroll. They can cut off a hand, scribe a scroll of regenerate to give the BBEG a new one, and keep the dead hand as a chunk of the guy to cast on.

Doesn't work.
So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death.

[Spuddles]

Lich is an over CR'd template, IMO. Compare it to everything a vampire gets. Vampire Mage has more going for it than Lich Mage. All the Vamp weaknesses are rather trivial, if you're putting it on a chassis with 11 caster levels.

[Schylerwalker]

I think a Death Knight with a phylactery is a better approach to what you're trying to do. Death Knights are fearsome melee combatants, naturally get minions and a sick mount, and even have a few minor spell-like abilities. Just say that another lich crafted it for him so that he could be safer.

This is could create an interesting plot twist, as the players could then strike some kind of deal with the lich in question to get the guy's phylactery or something like that.

[Ranting Fool]

Thank you all for your imput :smallbiggrin:

For some reason it never crossed my mind that it was caster level and not wizard level :smalltongue:

And yes i'll go have a look at Deathknight and Deathtouched type ideas :smallsmile: