Is warhulk worth it for Dungeon Crasher?

[killem2]

I've seen many builds on this since I started looking it over, and warhulk is debated.

I'm a goliath, with the arctic racial variant from dragon 306 (i think) and with just straight ability increase from every 4 level, I'll end up with 26 at the base.

Before hulk, and assuming I start it at char level 11 (barb 1/fighter 6/psy warrior 3), I will have a BAB of +9, and I'll be sitting at +9/+3.

Overall pretty pathetic for full round attacks, but I'll also be sitting at at the very least 46 strength. So I should be dungeon crashing for amazing amounts of damage.

+18 to each to each attack isn't bad either. Figure in magic items/rages/expansion and 1.5x str to a two hander.

Thoughts?

[Urpriest]

Well the question is, do you have enough rage uses to be constantly in Mountain Rage? If you're planning on spending any combats while you're not Large, those War Hulk levels will be dead levels without even BAB.

Also, consider that with Knockback (Races of Stone) you can make dungeoncrashing full attacks anyway.

[killem2]

Well the question is, do you have enough rage uses to be constantly in Mountain Rage? If you're planning on spending any combats while you're not Large, those War Hulk levels will be dead levels without even BAB.

Also, consider that with Knockback (Races of Stone) you can make dungeoncrashing full attacks anyway.

Are you saying dungeon crashing isn't any good unless you are actually large and not just having the powerful build?

I thought goliaths count for warhulk because of powerful build.

[tyckspoon]

Are you saying dungeon crashing isn't any good unless you are actually large and not just having the powerful build?

I thought goliaths count for warhulk because of powerful build.

Only for things that explicitly accept Powerful Build in place of being large (like the Knockback feat, which has a special note that Powerful Build also qualifies.) It's not a general rule- Powerful Build does not make you Large or even counts-as Large for all purposes. If something doesn't have a special reference to Powerful Build counting, then you get only and exactly what the Powerful Build trait specifies- you can use bigger weapons, and you have an improved size modifier for special combat checks.

[killem2]

Only for things that explicitly accept Powerful Build in place of being large (like the Knockback feat, which has a special note that Powerful Build also qualifies.) It's not a general rule- Powerful Build does not make you Large or even counts-as Large for all purposes. If something doesn't have a special reference to Powerful Build counting, then you get only and exactly what the Powerful Build trait specifies- you can use bigger weapons, and you have an improved size modifier for special combat checks.

oh son of a :(

bubble busted

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

You can use a Skillful weapon (complete arcane) to be proficient AND get cleric BaB with it.
Get your spiked chain ready.
War hulk can be devastating.

About war hulk and goliaths, you still qualify with mountain rage and that's a good thing because, when you are not raging, you regain use of your intelligence based skills.
With Extra Rage you shouldn't have problems.

[killem2]

You can use a Skillful weapon (complete arcane) to be proficient AND get cleric BaB with it.
Get your spiked chain ready.
War hulk can be devastating.

About war hulk and goliaths, you still qualify with mountain rage and that's a good thing because, when you are not raging, you regain use of your intelligence based skills.
With Extra Rage you shouldn't have problems.

Few things then:

Do I just rage at the time I am ready to level up, so I can qualify to hop into war hulk?

Should I take 3 levels in pys warrior for some expansion goodness?

Do I have to take a spikechain? I'll have two characters in this session, one is a monk/psy warrior tripper crazy man, and this one who just wants to bash people's faces in. Hopefully with a really nice greatsword or minotaur great hammer :D

[Slipperychicken]

I'd say so. It helps you make your Bull Rush checks more reliably (and even more so if you can bull rush into the ground via flying or something), the extra damage per hit (assuming you have Knockback and are 2H fighting) will be 1.5(from 2H)+2 or 3(dungeoncrashing). After level 6 of Dungeoncrash Fighter, that will be 4 or 5 (switching each boost) damage per hit per level of War Hulk. It also adds to both your attack rolls and Bull Rush checks.

You'll most likely need to crunch the numbers between Strength Boost (+1 to hit, +4.5 damage per hit, +1 to Bull Rush attempts) and BAB (+1 to hit, better potential PA returns, another attack at certain intervals), and determine which is better. Remember that dungeoncrasher will only work if you can make your Bull Rush checks reliably. Because of that last part, I think War Hulk is worth it damage-wise, since you'll be able to hit easier (just as well as if you took full BAB), get your Bull Rush off easier, and hit harder with both Dungeoncrash and your regular hits.

Chances are, you won't exactly constitute the brains of the party anyway, so No Time to Think probably won't be so painful. At the capstone, you can swing every full-attack (IIRC) at your whole threatened area, so that might make up for the fewer attacks when you can maneuver yourself to threaten multiple creatures.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Do I just rage at the time I am ready to level up, so I can qualify to hop into war hulk?
Leveling up is not something that happens in a small amount of time, it represents what you did during the past levels. If you mostly raged and fough being big, there is no reason to deny learning the War Hulk ways.
Do druids wild shape at the time they level up?

Should I take 3 levels in pys warrior for some expansion goodness?
cheap custom expansion item is cheap

Do I have to take a spikechain?
Not necessairly, but a reach weapon is suggested to make the best use of your area attacks.

[killem2]

cheap custom expansion item is cheap


What item would you speak of?

Also, if I am large, huge, whatever it is at the time I swing with knock back as a warhulk, do I then have a chance to knock ALL those targets back?

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

A custom item. Earring of expansion. Any creator of psionic items can do that.

Yes you knock them all back.
Guess what happens if you also use Shock Trooper and Improved Trip feats?
You can knock them into each other and AoO them to death.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could use Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny instead of Goliath to be actually large size. It's only a +2 LA versus the +1 of Goliath, and it could save you quite a bit of trouble. Another alternative would be the Half-Minotaur template from Dragon 313, but that's extremely overpowered and not likely to be allowed in most games.

Get Knock-Back (RoS) and Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) for a Dungeoncrasher War Hulk. The best thing about this is the interaction of Mighty Swing and eventually Massive Swing with your extra attack from Improved Trip via Knock-Down. Every attack you make hits multiple creatures, and each hit on each of them activates Knock-Back and Dungeoncrashes them against the wall. Knock-Down lets you trip anything you hit, and Improved Trip gives you an extra attack on anything you successfully trip. Each of those extra attacks via Improved Trip also hits multiple creatures, and again allows you to Knock-Back and Dungeoncrash them.

I'd get War Hulk asap, preferably going something like Fighter 6/ War Hulk 10 if you can use flaws. Use Massive Swing to sweep everyone into a corner, and every attack you make will Dungeoncrash them against the wall. You get a number of attacks equal to the number of opponents you knock prone, each of which will also hit every opponent and Dungeoncrash them again. If just one opponent gets up, you get to Dungeoncrash the whole crowd again. If he then tries to escape, you get to Dungeoncrash the whole crowd again plus once more if you trip him.

I'd even get TWF and EWP: Kusari-Gama (DMG, oriental weapons), and wear Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) to get ITWF without meeting the Dex requirement. That will allow you to make even more attacks, to deal your Dungeoncrasher damage more times in a given round. Forget about extra damage from Power Attack, 8d6+3xStr again and again on the same opponents is going to be plenty, though you always need to take at least a -1 for Power Attack to enable Knock-Back.

[Slipperychicken]

Biff covered most of it, but you can Bull Rush people into the floor, which can be helpful if there aren't any walls or terrain features handy. Flying (Good maneuverability if possible) will probably help your argument for absolutely let you smack people into the dirt, and it even makes sense with the tripping thing: You smack people from above, then the force slams them Prone into the ground, dealing even more damage.


There's another Half-Ogre in Dragon 313 (same issue Half-Minotaur came in), which bumps you to Large and grants a better Strength boost (+12, because the authors referenced the Changes to Statistics By Size table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) without reading it first) for only +1 LA.

If you assume the writers only meant Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur to give the changes actually written in the magazine, they aren't quite as bad.

[kardar233]

I'd get War Hulk asap, preferably going something like Fighter 6/ War Hulk 10 if you can use flaws. Use Massive Swing to sweep everyone into a corner, and every attack you make will Dungeoncrash them against the wall. You get a number of attacks equal to the number of opponents you knock prone, each of which will also hit every opponent and Dungeoncrash them again. If just one opponent gets up, you get to Dungeoncrash the whole crowd again. If he then tries to escape, you get to Dungeoncrash the whole crowd again plus once more if you trip him.

I would also suggest a bit of Jump optimization (helps that you're a Goliath and get Mountain Movement) and get the Battle Jump feat, so you can leap down onto people and use Knockback to Bull Rush them directly into the ground for Dungeoncrasher damage without having to rely on nearby objects.

[killem2]

Thanks for the replies. Main reason I went with goliath is powerful build, and it is only la +1. DM has s restriction that we can only have la +1 and start as level 1, or la +2 and start as level 2.

I do get to use flaws so that's going to be helpful.

You say I should go right into fighter though?

I also wasn't really even thinking about mountain rage at first because I thought powerful build took care of it for warhulk, and was going to go with whirling frenzy.

So you are saying I should grab improved trip along with knock down, to generate AoO, because those too can be used to trigger the dungeon crashers knock back attempts? You can combine knock back and knock down? So send them flying and then they fall down?

[Xaragos]

Along with some of the OP's questions and perhaps add some to their decision making. For those goliaths with powerful build using a reach weapon ala Spiked Chain and the Knockback feat or gaining reach from being Large. When you power attack (enabling you to use Knockback) and hit, do you have to move into the space of the person you are knocking back like a normal bull rush? IE if you hit your enemy with your 10 ft reach at 10 ft, does that negate Knockback, meaning you need to be adjacent in order to pull it off? Or does this function work at reach mechanically?

Hopefully this discussion can help with some of the OP's concept ideas for WarHulk, etc. I always ruled that powerful build allowed you to multi into WH as a Goliath.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Biff covered most of it, but you can Bull Rush people into the floor, which can be helpful if there aren't any walls or terrain features handy. Flying (Good maneuverability if possible) will probably help your argument for smacking people into the dirt, and it even makes sense with the tripping thing: You smack people from above, then the force slams them Prone into the ground, dealing even more damage.

No, you can't. Unless you're using Leap Attack (with a high enough jump check to get over the opponent's head) or flight or something, in which case I think you can.

But I love the jumping tactic on a human with the Short flaw (which, despite the best efforts of D&D parody webcomics, probably doesn't exist) with unarmed strikes fluffed as stomps. And a bushy mustache.

[Slipperychicken]

No, you can't. Unless you're using Leap Attack (with a high enough jump check to get over the opponent's head) or flight or something, in which case I think you can.


Thank you, I've been wondering about that for a while now and have never gotten a clear answer on it. So we'll probably want to get either Feathered Wings graft (10k, requires Evil, nonmagical, but average maneuverability so you can't hover), a Winged Mask (Fly at-will for 13k), or a continuous item of Swift Fly (16k 48k, same deal as Winged Mask, only continuous). With some way of reliably hovering, you won't be DM-dependent for walls or terrain to Dungeoncrash into.

[killem2]

Thank you, I've been wondering about that for a while now and have never gotten a clear answer on it. So we'll probably want to get either Feathered Wings graft (10k, requires Evil, nonmagical, but average maneuverability so you can't hover), a Winged Mask (Fly at-will for 13k), or a continuous item of Swift Fly (16k, same deal as Winged Mask, only continuous). With some way of reliably hovering, you won't be DM-dependent for walls or terrain to Dungeoncrash into.

Lucky for me, our dm is a dungeon hound :D. And we're in arctic settings with lots and lots of mountains.

So If I can't knock them into something, at least I can knock them OFF of something :D

[Slipperychicken]

Lucky for me, our dm is a dungeon hound :D. And we're in arctic settings with lots and lots of mountains.

So If I can't knock them into something, at least I can knock them OFF of something :D

Awesome. Also, do bear in mind the (rather obvious) perks which flight grants. For example, if your reach is significantly greater than your foe's, you can hover some 10 or 15ft above him and beat him to death with impunity. Maybe you'd eat some crossbow bolts, but most of the time, that's a lot better than being full attacked in melee. That, and fighting fliers while you're both grounded and built around melee really sucks.

[kardar233]

Thank you, I've been wondering about that for a while now and have never gotten a clear answer on it. So we'll probably want to get either Feathered Wings graft (10k, requires Evil, nonmagical, but average maneuverability so you can't hover), a Winged Mask (Fly at-will for 13k), or a continuous item of Swift Fly (16k 48k, same deal as Winged Mask, only continuous). With some way of reliably hovering, you won't be DM-dependent for walls or terrain to Dungeoncrash into.

Or you could do some Jump optimization. Battle Jump allows you to charge if you jump on someone for double damage. A Warblade dip at level 9 gets you Leaping Dragon Stance, allowing you to Battle Jump Medium enemies without even needing to make a check. It's a DC 20 to Battle Jump Large creatures and so on.

As you're flinging yourself straight down at your opponent your Knockback procs will send them straight into the ground.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Battle Jump allows you to charge if you jump on someone for double damage.

DO NOT UTTER THE NAME OF THAT FEAT!

I still have nightmares of all the potential arguments... such terrible, terrible wording...

[killem2]

DO NOT UTTER THE NAME OF THAT FEAT!

I still have nightmares of all the potential arguments... such terrible, terrible wording...

I read it over, and is the debates stemming from what part of the damage gets doubled?

[Hiro Protagonest]

I read it over, and is the debates stemming from what part of the damage gets doubled?

Nope. Whether it's applicable or not.

[Person_Man]

It's not that difficult to get Large+ size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) or lots of damage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087). My personal opinion is that if you want to play a melee build, decide on a combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) that will deal lots of damage reliably, then move other cool thing you enjoy doing. The Tarrasque only has 858 hit points. So once you get to 100+ish per attack (which you get get with just Dungeoncrasher + Power Attack + Shock Trooper) you'll be set to kill pretty much anything.

[killem2]

Nope. Whether it's applicable or not.

Oh. I see. Well, best not worry about it then lol. I'll let it go.

[BlueEyes]

Oh. I see. Well, best not worry about it then lol. I'll let it go.
Why not, you know, show it to the DM and ask for his interpretation and go with that as the ruling?