Trading out Inspiration for Sneak Attack

[White_Drake]

I know this may sound odd, but I am interested in playing a bard which doesn't bolster his companions. If you were to trade away the entire Inspire line, for a sneak attack progression, how quick a progression would be in order?

[Waker]

Trading out all Inspire X specifically while retaining the rest of the Bardic Music? Well those contain what I think most people would consider the most useful Bardic songs so I would think that full SA progression would be fine.

[JellyPooga]

Trading out all Inspire X specifically while retaining the rest of the Bardic Music? Well those contain what I think most people would consider the most useful Bardic songs so I would think that full SA progression would be fine.

Hmm, I initially thought the same, myself, but then you also have to remember that Bards get spellcasting as well and giving full Sneak Attack progression feels a little bit like stomping on the Rogue for not being Mr.Magical-Moo the Magic Man of Mancha.

I'd personally give, which is perhaps a little conservative I'll admit, a +1d6 per three levels of Bard, with a bonus +1d6 at 1st level (so basically, every level you'd normally get a Feat, you also gain +1d6 Sneak Attack). This would net you +7d6 Sneak Attack by 18th level, which is pretty respectable.

[eggs]

Without Inspire X, Bard's essentially a Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) with weaker abilities and better casting. I'd just match the PsyRogue SA advancement. So 7d6, basically.

[nedz]

Yeah, as JellyPooga says, this stamps on the Rogues.

Comparing Rogue to Sneak-Bard:
Sacrifice 2 skillpoints per level for 2/3 casting.
Sounds like a good deal to me.

Why don't you just play a SpellThief, using the Master SpellThief feat you can get a similar result ?

[White_Drake]

This is purely hypothetical, I was just curious how much power the Inspire line gave , and because I always play Rogues, sneak attack is just easy to think in terms of.

[Soranar]

sneak attack, compared to inspire courage

sneak attack only affects you, requires flanking or the like to apply

through the use of an ACF, half can be applied to crit immune creatures

clearly a tier 4 ability (does 1 thing well, not always useful)

inspire courage

affects all of your allies and you (companions, summons, animal companions, cohorts, pets, etc)

requires no special condition to work

can be optimized easily (dragonfire inspiration, magical items, spells)

clearly a tier 3 ability (always useful but not gamebreaking)

[Larkas]

sneak attack only affects you, requires flanking or the like to apply

through the use of an ACF, half can be applied to crit immune creatures

clearly a tier 4 ability (does 1 thing well, not always useful)

Not quite. Sneak Attack is dependent on two conditions: the target being flanked (or denied Dex to AC) and the target not being crit immune. You can optimize to reduce the importance of those, but you'll never be quite free from them. Furthermore, Sneak Attack damage is never multiplied, which makes an extra 1d6 damage instantly inferior to, say, +3 to damage.

As such, I'd say Sneak Attack is not always useful, and doesn't even do what it's supposed to do so well. So, tier 5 ability.

[eggs]

Knock works in highly limited situation, isn't going to break any games, is fairly easily negated by getting rid of a door/opening and can be replicated by a commoner with an adamantine spoon.

So if we're dividing individual class features into balance assessments of entire classes, does that make it a Tier 5 ability? And does that mean anything?

[Larkas]

Knock works in highly limited situation, isn't going to break any games, is fairly easily negated by getting rid of a door/opening and can be replicated by a commoner with an adamantine spoon.

So if we're dividing individual class features into balance assessments of entire classes, does that make it a Tier 5 ability? And does that mean anything?

No, it doesn't. I stand corrected. Still, I think Inspire Courage is a much better class feature than Sneak Attack.

[Curmudgeon]

Furthermore, Sneak Attack damage is never multiplied, which makes an extra 1d6 damage instantly inferior to, say, +3 to damage.
That's not right. Only sneak attack dice are never multiplied. Non-dice sneak attack bonus from Craven would always be multiplied on a critical hit.

[Larkas]

That's not right. Only sneak attack dice are never multiplied. Non-dice sneak attack bonus from Craven would always be multiplied on a critical hit.

Oooh, quite correct, totally forgot about Craven.

[Curmudgeon]

Oooh, quite correct, totally forgot about Craven.
Craven is really important to a sneak attacker. A Rogue or other full progression sneak attack class gets on average 1.75 points of sneak attack damage per level (1d6 every 2 levels). Craven boosts that by +1 point per level, meaning Craven damage is 36% of the sneak attack damage with no criticals. If a Rogue has some form of workaround for sneak-immune opponents (Lightbringer Penetrating Strike or Death's Ruin, for instance) which reduces the sneak attack dice by half, Craven becomes 53% of the sneak attack total. But when you figure in critical hits, where Craven is multiplied but the sneak attack dice are not, the percentage grows higher. With a keen rapier and Lightbringer Penetrating Strike, Craven can represent 60% of all sneak attack damage.

Craven is as important to a Rogue as Power Attack is to a Fighter and Natural Spell is to a Druid ─ basically a feat tax because nearly every member of the class takes it.

[Larkas]

Craven is really important to a sneak attacker. A Rogue or other full progression sneak attack class gets on average 1.75 points of sneak attack damage per level (1d6 every 2 levels). Craven boosts that by +1 point per level, meaning Craven damage is 36% of the sneak attack damage with no criticals. If a Rogue has some form of workaround for sneak-immune opponents (Lightbringer Penetrating Strike or Death's Ruin, for instance) which reduces the sneak attack dice by half, Craven becomes 53% of the sneak attack total. But when you figure in critical hits, where Craven is multiplied but the sneak attack dice are not, the percentage grows higher. With a keen rapier and Lightbringer Penetrating Strike, Craven can represent 60% of all sneak attack damage.

Craven is as important to a Rogue as Power Attack is to a Fighter and Natural Spell is to a Druid ─ basically a feat tax because nearly every member of the class takes it.

See? This is why I love to be proven wrong... Or unenlightened, as is the case. I never played a Rogue in 3E (I know, I'm a heretic), basically because I always thought that Sneak Attack was terrible. Turns out it is not half bad, even if because of a single feat. I'll be sure to give it a try in the next game I play!

The main question stands, though. Is Inspire Courage better than Sneak Attack? If so, by how much? Basically, it is the best way to know how many Sneak Attack damage dice he can get if he can get to trade IC for SA :smallsmile:

[Bloodgruve]

Spellthief has a Trickster ACF that drops trap find and a couple class skills for Bard spell list and progression. You could look at that class and ACF as a fit for this if you don't want the sing song stuff. Alternately you could look at Dragonfire Inspiration which substutes each IC+ into 1d6 elemental damage for each attack across the party. Also as a bard you have a medium BAB which IC helps and there are spells and items that can increase the bonus.

If have a melee heavy part that gets multiple attacks IC is better. If you are the only melee then sneak attack could potentially be better. Personally I would go IC and give my bard a bunch of natural attacks.

GL
Blood~

[Curmudgeon]

The main question stands, though. Is Inspire Courage better than Sneak Attack?
Inspire Courage can improve attacks and damage by +4 each at level 20. Sneak Attack with Craven won't affect attacks, but will boost damage by +10d6+20 (average +55) at level 20. +4 vs. +55 isn't even close. Sneak Attack is just for one character, while Inspire Courage is for multiple characters, but limited by hearing range. However, the important thing about Inspire Courage is that not only does it use up a standard action (the default for Supernatural abilities) to get started, it's an exclusive use of Bardic Music: using that ability means the Bard isn't using Fascinate, Song of Freedom, or whatever. So while Sneak Attack doesn't cost anything to use, Inspire Courage does.

Hearing Bardic Music is actually problematic in a battle.
To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. A Bard using oratory (talking) is DC 0 to hear, but Listen checks are penalized by -5 for combat distraction and -1 per 10' of distance. And if you fail, you can't pick up the effect again without a move action recheck.
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action. Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action. Unless all party members pump up their Listen skills, Inspire Courage will fail because PCs won't be able to hear the Bard above the din of battle, and they can't spare a move action to pick up the Inspire Courage refrain again.

Given the limitations, I don't think Inspire Courage is worth anywhere near what Sneak Attack is worth.

[eggs]

Inspire Courage is more reliable, but I wouldn't call it better.

It comes with its own set of limitations:

First is the action economy. Cranking IC up to its full bonus means either singing before a fight or using a standard action and two swift actions before doing anything else. With Song of the White Raven (after investing in its requirements), the swift action can be cut out, but the total bonus starts dropping away. The first round is almost always the most important - it's almost always more useful to have a large damage bonus available immediately and drop something before it can foul up the party than it is to give the whole party a damage bonus once the Fighter's been blinded, the druid's pet's been dominated, and the bard's been shoved into a solid fog.

Second is its stacking. IC is a morale bonus and a mind effect. It's fantastic in an absence of other casters and high-level spell effects, but it loses its comparative advantage alongside heroism spells or Inspire Recklessness effects, and it runs into problems once the party starts turning to mind blanks, veils of undeath, polymorphs, etc. to protect against fear and mind control.

Third is its actual applicability. IC is often translated into Dragonfire inspiration to make lots of d6s happen and to compare directly to the Rogue. But this runs into problems because almost everything can resist fire damage from the mid-levels (especially if a DFI party trivializes one or two of a DM's encounters), and changing the damage type to something other than fire requires jumping through some pretty obnoxious hoops.

Assuming players are equally willing to jump through hoops in cranking IC bonuses and applying SA to vulnerable targets, I'd judge the abilities as pretty equal. It's actually Inspire Greatness's potential for abuse that I'd really look at for the balance judgement here - if IG is being twisted for a severe HD-based advantage, Sneak Attack is going to look really weak as a fill-in; if it's just being used for the occasional Aid-like effect, I'd call the trade fair.