RP question. PCs that don't know their own alignment?

[Wookie-ranger]

One of my players asked me something for an upcoming campaign. Its a fairly RP heavy campaign (about 75-80%) the rest being mechanics and numbers.
She wants to play a character that thinks he is one alignment, but is actually another.
For example, her character might think that he is LG but is really CN (and justifies everything for himself)

At first is thought 'sure, why not'. but now i think there might be a little bit more to it. I am very bad at determining alignment in D&D from a mechanical standpoint, as It depends on the DM to determine if it is based on action, intend, thought, npc reaction or birth. That's why i usually try to make it a none-issue.
I am not perfectly sure how to DM here?


I thought of a few situations:
He might think that he is chaotic, but follows a very strict code of being unlawful and unpredictable.
He might be a ruthless killer, not granting any mercy to those that raise a sword against them, but is very nice to very one else.
Someone that follows all the laws as written; but chooses which ones to follow at any one time and bends them to fit the situation as in the 'as written' part not as intended

Any input on this?
I don't wan this to be a tread about what alignment is or why it is a bad abstraction of the real world. Just a pure reflection on the D&D universe and how to DM this sort of Character.

[demigodus]

Well, unless you are using magic to check your alignment, it comes down to "how do I think I behave". People are very much capable of misjudging themselves.

Have you ever met someone who's description of their own personality didn't fit your view of their personality, or their behavior habits? If so, that person wouldn't know their own alignment. Doesn't seem unrealistic, I don't see why you wouldn't allow it.

[Psyren]

Yeah, it's pretty easy to think you're one alignment when you're actually not. Case in point, Miko.

[jaybird]

Yeah, it's pretty easy to think you're one alignment when you're actually not. Case in point, Miko.

No, if she wasn't Lawful Good wouldn't she have lost her powers?

[Duke of URL]

Happens all of the time. Alignment is both in-game and metagame; for those who do not have magical means to detect alignment, it can be guesswork. Many an evil-doer believe (s)he is the "good guy", for example.

[TypoNinja]

Wouldn't work. Regardless of what alignment they thought they were, in short order they'd become whatever alignment they acted like.

A PC picks his alignment, and usually uses it to help determine player actions, but alignment is reactive. If you start lawful but act chaotic you'll start switching.

Alignment is descriptive, not proscriptive, and will change to match behavior.

[Psyren]

No, if she wasn't Lawful Good wouldn't she have lost her powers?

The Giant confirmed that she had slipped from LG before the actual fall. He even mentioned that in SoD, some of the paladins that purged Redcloak's village fell later, after they left. So the fall, the alignment shift and the triggering act(s) don't necessarily have to be perfectly synchronized.

[whibla]

One of my players ... wants to play a character that thinks he is one alignment, but is actually another.

I don't wan this to be a tread about what alignment is or why it is a bad abstraction of the real world. Just a pure reflection on the D&D universe and how to DM this sort of Character.

Interesting!

My first thought is actually that the DM is not the one with the problem. I'm not sure I can see much difference between DM'ing a game in which a player is deliberately playing a(n alignment) deluded character, and the many games where it's the players themselves that are deluded about the alignment of their character. At the end of the day, the actual alignment of any character in the game is the decision of the DM (through observation of character actions and interactions) and the player or character can think of themselves as they like...

My second comment is that without specific knowledge of the respective alignments in question, and indeed your specific 'style' of game, it's difficult to foresee the situations that might arise, and potential conflicts that might appear, because of it. The obvious ones (character is of a class or PrC that has specific alignment restrictions) probably aren't worth mentioning, other than to note that in order for the character to be able to function effectively (in mechanics terms, rather than rp terms) the actual alignment, in these cases, must be the one mentioned in the class restriction. The delusion, in theory can be any other concievable alignment, but whether this would be believable is another question. That's really where story, and player imagination comes in. Think of a cleric of Pelor who feels they must be evil, and that Pelor has forsaken them (all evidence to the contrary - they still get spells etc.), because they failed to prevent the deaths of several people in a village that was struck by a plague. If they were truly good then they'd have managed to save everybody (limited spell slots for remove disease or not)! The roleplaying potential is great, but the actual DM intervention (as in rule 0 stuff) is non-existant.

At the end of the day, you, as the DM, are creating the story, adjudicating the results of situations, and roleplaying the npc's. Leave the players roleplay themselves, delusions and all, and I'm sure it'll go fine.

(While I was going to list several more examples of potentially alignment conflicted characters, actual, delusional, and rationale, I do not think that's what you're really asking. I do hope the concept works out for your players and you though, and it provides as much fun as it looks like it should.)

*Edit* If you are happy using rule 0, and comfortable with specific one-off house rules, then you might consider allowing the player to have an equivalent of the Use Magic Device skill, at CL+3, usable as a reflexive action, for the purposes of emulating their specific deulsional alignment only. I can't see this as being particularly game breaking, and belief can be a powerful thing...

[hamishspence]

The Giant confirmed that she had slipped from LG before the actual fall.

When? The book War & XPs does say "she pushed and pushed at the boundaries of her alignment and what it means to be a paladin until finally she broke through" but that's not the same thing as saying she'd reached LN before killing Shojo. Especially since paladins lose their powers the moment they change alignment.

That said- there's quite a bit of precedent for characters being unwilling to admit, even to themselves, that they have changed alignment- being only subconsciously aware at most.

Michael Ambrose in Tome of Magic- fell all the way to Blackguard- still believes he's a paladin who's merely being "tested" by his deity, with the loss and change of his powers, and his deity ceasing to communicate with him.

Gareth Cormaeril in Waterdeep: City of Splendours- also can't admit to himself he's fallen- also a Blackguard.

A character in Exemplars of Evil- cleric, has one domain, has fallen from being cleric of Corellon to cleric of Lolth after her enemy's dying curse turned her into a drow- a duplicate of her enemy- and she had to masquerade as her enemy to survive.

[Psyren]

When? The book War & XPs does say "she pushed and pushed at the boundaries of her alignment and what it means to be a paladin until finally she broke through" but that's not the same thing as saying she'd reached LN before killing Shojo. Especially since paladins lose their powers the moment they change alignment.


It wasn't in a commentary, it was in a forum post. I'll see if I can dig it up.

But I know you were there for the second comment - where he explained that at least some of the paladins in SoD fell "off-camera" after the events in RC's village. The important thing being "after" meaning that they very likely believed themselves to be LG even during the purge.

[Vladislav]

One of my players asked me something for an upcoming campaign. Its a fairly RP heavy campaign (about 75-80%) the rest being mechanics and numbers.
She wants to play a character that thinks he is one alignment, but is actually another.
For example, her character might think that he is LG but is really CN (and justifies everything for himself)
Dude, I have news for you. In real life, almost everyone consider themselves Lawful Good, and are willing to justify away anything that 'challenges' this assertion. Some of the worst criminals in history considered themselves 'good guys' and 'victims of circumstance'. The worst dictators and tyrants were acting 'for the good of their people.' And of course, people who aren't particularly evil or chaotic, but occasionally perform evil or chaotic acts are also more than willing to rationalize them away.

The pattern of behavior you are describing is nothing more than normal human behavior.

[hamishspence]

But I know you were there for the second comment - where he explained that at least some of the paladins in SoD fell "off-camera" after the events in RC's village. The important thing being "after" meaning that they very likely believed themselves to be LG even during the purge.

True- "loss of powers" may not be something one is conscious of. Until one tries to use the power- and gets nothing.

I see it as "they fell during, but they might have only realised it after"

The dramatic stripping of Miko's powers (and decoloring of her equipment- which only functions for paladins in good standing) does suggest that this was the critical moment though- until that action, she was still a paladin- after it, she was an ex-paladin.

[Psyren]

True- "loss of powers" may not be something one is conscious of. Until one tries to use the power- and gets nothing.

I see it as "they fell during, but they might have only realised it after"

That's a valid interpretation, except that I distinctly remember him saying that they fell afterward. And wasn't all their gear blue right up until they left, and even after the more heinous acts on-screen?

He clarified that only Miko got the dramatic bolt (something about her fall being equivalent to the CEO showing up to fire you in person, because she screwed up that much) but that much at least - the azure colors - holds true for the entire SG.

[hamishspence]

Since it's black and white- it would be difficult to tell. Also they may have been low level- thus not equipped with this high-level magical gear.

The original post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8081896&postcount=21) doesn't say whether they would have fallen at the moment they crossed the line, or afterward- and points out that any Falls weren't shown "onscreen" because it would have cheapened Miko's.