Archivist Archery?

[Vizzerdrix]

Am I missing something, or is the archivist a decent archery platform? You can get the tasty ranger archery spells, the awesome cleric buffs and even a built in method of buffing yer damage. So why do I never see any builds for it? What am I overlooking?

[eggs]

Yeah, they're fantastic.

Not sure why you haven't seen them mentioned; they're pretty common recommendations, alongside Cleric and Artificer.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You'll need to decide between a Cloistered Cleric 1 dip (Knowledge Devotion, Elf and War domains) or using Sacred Exorcist and delaying DMM: Persist until 9th. It mostly depends on your starting level.

Archivist doesn't get the Wis-SAD elegance that a Cleric with Zen Archery has, nor does it have access to domain spell slots to enable Greater Anyspell which can (Persistent) Draconic Polymorph you into an Arrow Demon.

[Vizzerdrix]

Maybe not, but they can get all those tasty ranger spells, and even some of the wizard ones if you jump through enough hoops.

Maybe an Eneko Archivist build would work. :smallconfused: I'd need to buy off the LA (+1) but it gets powerful build, longbow proficiency and no penalty to the needed casting stats.

[Piggy Knowles]

Archivist doesn't get the Wis-SAD elegance that a Cleric with Zen Archery has, nor does it have access to domain spell slots to enable Greater Anyspell which can (Persistent) Draconic Polymorph you into an Arrow Demon.

True, but they do pull Polymorph easily off the adept spell list, and if scrolls from domains are available, PAO and Shapechange are pretty easy to obtain. Draconic Polymorph is a bit sad to miss, but it's not irreplaceable.

On the other hand, you get access to Arrow Mind, Hunter's Mercy, Exacting Shot, Guided Shot, Sniper's Shot, Swift Haste (which is persistable!), Arrow Storm, Doublestrike Arrow and Find the Gap off the ranger spell list, which is pretty darn nice.

[Metahuman1]

And Splitting, don't forget Splitting. =)

[eggs]

The Archivist's class features aren't bad either - attack and damage bonuses that can be dropped as move actions (combining nicely with a quickened+standard action lockdown spell routine in round 1) and which combo nicely with Knowledge Devotion.

DMM:Persist is nice, but it's not everything. And TBH, without Flaws, custom bloodlines or other chicanery, I'm not sure how it would fit into a Cleric Zen Archery build before Sacred Exorcist comes into play anyway.

[dextercorvia]

You'll need to decide between a Cloistered Cleric 1 dip (Knowledge Devotion, Elf and War domains) or using Sacred Exorcist and delaying DMM: Persist until 9th. It mostly depends on your starting level.

Archivist doesn't get the Wis-SAD elegance that a Cleric with Zen Archery has, nor does it have access to domain spell slots to enable Greater Anyspell which can (Persistent) Draconic Polymorph you into an Arrow Demon.

Zen Archery doesn't make you truly SAD though, you still need Dex for feat prereq's. Illumian Archivist (Uurkrau) is Dex/Int based in the same way as a Cleric will be Dex/Wis Based.

Planar Touchstone linked to the Catalogs of Enlightenment for the DLCS version of the Sun domain will get you Turn Undead at 6th level. Also, thanks to the Paladin spell list, Archivists can enter Sacred Exorcist after 7th level rather than waiting until after the 9th level. Nevermind about that -- I see you meant getting DMM at 9th.

[Akal Saris]

I agree that illumian would likely be a good race to pick.

Since archivist actually has (gasp!) a good use for move actions with its dark knowledge, it synergizes well with multishot. Knowledge devotion (possibly through a 1-level dip in cloistered cleric and trading the free domain) is another flavorful and solid feat.

I think the main problem for archivist archers is that archery is feat-intensive, especially if you're also trying to jam in DMM:Persist, so it takes a long time for archivists to be good at it without using flaws.

Not to mention that with so many useful spell choices, it's almost a shame to then use your spells just to be an above-par archer:P

[Fyermind]

Archivists make great archers. The reason you don't see people jumping up and down over archivist archers all the times is because they are even better just about everything else.

This is why I tend to advocate for Bard archers. Bards make solid solid archers and are better archers than most other things if they stayed single classed (ughh who doesn't prestige out by level 4 anyway?)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's not a matter of how many spell lists you get access to, it's more about what your character can do at a given level. Archivist certainly get a lot of nice tools and spells, but as I said it's lacking the elegance of a Cleric.

If you use Illumian you miss out on the Outsider type, so instead of (Draconic) Polymorphing into an Arrow Demon you're waiting until you get Shapechange, if you ever get that far. Archivist may get Polymorph via the Adept list, but without Arrow Demon form it's not really worth it. A Cleric can use Elf with Otherworldly, get the Elf domain without complications, and use Greater Anyspell for (Persistent) Draconic Polymoprh into an Arrow Demon at ECL 11. Swift Haste is good, but Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is just as persistable and benefits the whole party.

You only need Dex 13 for Rapid Shot, Manyshot isn't as good as full attacking with two extra attacks and you don't even need Improved Precise Shot with a Seeking bow and/or Woodland Archer. A Wis-SAD Cleric can use a Monk's Belt with (Greater) Luminous Armor and (Persistent) Shield via Anyspell, and still put Magic Vestment on both of those. Plus he gets Point-Blank Shot, Extend Spell, and Knowledge Devotion for free via domains whereas an Archivist Archer is going to be severely feat starved even with flaws. The Cleric can DMM: Persist his buffs from 1st level, while the Archivist is either waiting until 9th or losing a caster level to dip a better suited class for his chosen role and gaining three extra feats in the process.

Archivist has the luxury of being able to be good at anything. It is good at archery, but not as good as a Cleric.

[Metahuman1]

Zen Archery doesn't make you truly SAD though, you still need Dex for feat prereq's. Illumian Archivist (Uurkrau) is Dex/Int based in the same way as a Cleric will be Dex/Wis Based.

Planar Touchstone linked to the Catalogs of Enlightenment for the DLCS version of the Sun domain will get you Turn Undead at 6th level. Also, thanks to the Paladin spell list, Archivists can enter Sacred Exorcist after 7th level rather than waiting until after the 9th level. Nevermind about that -- I see you meant getting DMM at 9th.

What books are Planar Touch Stone, Catalogs of Enlightenment found in and what book is DLCS?

[rot42]

What books are Planar Touch Stone, Catalogs of Enlightenment found in and what book is DLCS?

Planar Touchstone is a feat in the Planar Handbook. Connecting it to the Catalogues of Enlightenment gives you a Cleric domain (kinda).

DLCS is Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

[dextercorvia]

The Cleric can DMM: Persist his buffs from 1st level,

While this is true, the cleric is going to have to wait quite a few levels to have buffs worth persisting -- he'll get them just before the Archivist can start to persist his own buffs.

The difference is that the Archivist gets better buffs (even swift action ones). Also, the Archivist can make up the feat difference with Heroics, which isn't available to the Cleric as readily.

[Metahuman1]

Planar Touchstone is a feat in the Planar Handbook. Connecting it to the Catalogues of Enlightenment gives you a Cleric domain (kinda).

DLCS is Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

What is the Catalogues of Enlightenment, is that an Archivist Feature or part of the Planar Touchstone feat or what?

Sorry, I'm just very interested in the idea of being able to grab Turn undead + Travel Devotion or DMM with out having to take one or more levels in a class that grants turn undead.

[Piggy Knowles]

Minor nitpick - if you're picking up both the Elf and Planning domain, how are you also picking up the Spell domain for Greater Anyspell?

Also, short of flaws, I fail to see how an elf cleric who spends a feat on Otherworldly can DMM Persist from level 1.

Don't get me wrong - they'll still be better off feat-wise than an archivist (unless that archivist dips a level in cloistered cleric to similarly front-load his feats, but I'm not a huge fan of that option). That will generally make a cleric the superior choice at lower levels, but it smooths itself out later in the game. (And in a high-op game, the archivist gets more bonus feats than a cleric, which can be Dark Chaos'd into something more useful).

Really, that's the trade off you're looking at. A cleric can pick up a lot of feats early via domains, and doesn't need to dip into Sacred Exorcist for turning. An archivist has a better spell selection. I would argue that they can both make VERY good archers, and arguing that one is better than the other is a little silly.

[dextercorvia]

What is the Catalogues of Enlightenment, is that an Archivist Feature or part of the Planar Touchstone feat or what?

Sorry, I'm just very interested in the idea of being able to grab Turn undead + Travel Devotion or DMM with out having to take one or more levels in a class that grants turn undead.

Catalogs of Enlightenment is one of the locations you can key your planar touchstone too. This offers some benefits if you visit, but even without visiting, you gain a domain power from a domain offered by your deity. It costs you a feat slot, 250gp, and I think a handful of XP, but its been awhile since I read up on it. It is in the planar handbook.


I would argue that they can both make VERY good archers, and arguing that one is better than the other is a little silly.

Arguing anything on the internet is a little silly. :smallsmile: But, it is fun.