Theurgic Specalist and Necromancy...why has nobody caught onto this?

[Giegue]

As the title says. The Mystic Theurge is often cited as a poor class from a pure optimization standpoint, and there are many reasons for this. It is also considered an inferior necromancer to a Cleric or Dread Necro, again, for obvious reasons. However, recently, I have come across an obscure dragon mag feat called Theurgic Specialist, which allows a specialist wizard with a level(s) in another spellcasting class to count the CL of BOTH their classes when calculating the CL for spells of their specialist schools. Thus, a Necromancy Wizard 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 would have a total CL of 30 (17 + 13) meaning they could cast Animate Dead at a CL of 30 pre-epic. Combined this with the deathbound domain and desecrate from the cleric side and your animating a disgustingly large amount of undead, possibly enough to rival or even surpass a Dread Necro(Though I'm not sure about this and would appreciate it greatly if one of you could crunch the numbers.) while still being a a wizard with 9ths, with everything that come with that AND some cleric spells to support.

Of course, this is with an UNOPTIMIZED theurge. Use some early MT entry tricks and stack MT with some other dual advancement class and you can pump your necromancy CL(and thus amount of undead) even higher. This build also can be made essentially SAD by use of the Academic Priest feat, setting your cleric casting to int for everything but DCs, allowing you to have a low wis and just use wizard casting for offensive spells while focusing your cleric side on buffs, animation, heals ect...

This dose not make MT a more optimized class by any means, but it dose make MT better for Necromancy then a wizard, who fails at minionmastery without aid from some form of divine casting....at least for me.

Anyway, any thoughts on all of this, and even further is anybody willing to do the number crunch on Necro Wis/Cleric(assuming deathbound domain)/MT with theurgic specialist vs. Dread Necro for army size?

[Yuki Akuma]

Nobody has caught onto this because the charop posters don't memorise the contents of every single issue of Dragon.

[Giegue]

True. I only found the feat recently, and through a forum post of all things. However, I thought I'd mention it because it has some major implications as far as the power level of the Mystic Theurge is concerned. While my favored use for it is Necromancy/Animate Dead I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to abuse this with other schools. There are, after all, a lot of spells that are dependent on caster level and this feat could actually lift the Mystic Theruge out of the list of crap PrCs and give it some love, though some of the stuff you can do with this I would assume would be somewhat broken.

[Zaq]

I'd have to see the text of the feat, but my gut says it would run afoul of the "MT isn't a casting class" issue that comes up every so often. Most people, sooner or later on their optimization journeys, come up with the brilliant idea of progressing MT with another PrC, and if they think to share it, everyone shakes their heads and points out that MT isn't actually a casting class, since it doesn't have spells of its own. The wording on the feat you have in mind might be bizarre enough to overcome this, but I'd have to see it.

[eggs]

"When casting a spell from your specialist school (off the spell list of any spellcasting class you have), you can add together the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes to determine your caster level."

Caster levels all around. So this sounds like a legitimate use.

[The-Mage-King]

I found the feat in question.


It reads:


When casting a spell from your specialist spell (off the list of any spellcasting class you have), you can add together the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes to determine your caster level. [...]

And gives an example of a Druid/Sorc/Diviner.




Since MT advances caster level for a class... Seems legit.

[Little Brother]

Ooh, good find. I will be adding this to my handbook, now.

Which Dragon has this? 325?

Also, who says Mystic Theurge is a poor class? :smallannoyed:

[Snowbluff]

The issue in question (#325, IIRC) is an absolute monstrosity. I was able to use it to get an Arcane Hierophant a Gold Dragon UBERMOUNT. Which was an Animal Companion, Holy Mount, and a Familiar all at once. Which also got more than one level of each progression when I leveled.

Theurgic Mount, Holy Mount, Theurgic Bond are all pretty wicked, along with the other options available.

[Yuki Akuma]

Unfortunately, this wouldn't make MT any less awful - the other theurge PrCs which have actual class features would still be better.

[eggs]

Calculating Master Spellthief+Ultimate Magus+Sublime Chord CL gets way more painful/fun/"fun."

I'm still going to need to think about where I'd use this in a reasonable game. My

It effectively doubles the results of things like Ioun Stones and Magic Tattoos, which definitely has some potential.

[Little Brother]

Unfortunately, this wouldn't make MT any less awful - the other theurge PrCs which have actual class features would still be better.Have class features, and require you to bend backwords and lose CL trying to get into them(Or being stuck on an inferior list). Arcane Heirophant requires levels in Druid, and Fochlucan Lyrist is near as bad.

Mystic Theurge is really the best Theurge PrC. And it is amazing.

[Surzt and Gurzt]

Mystic Theurge is really the best Theurge PrC. And it is amazing.

Well, the Warlock-theurges from Complete Mage are pretty decent, but they of course are very limited in what they can combine.

[Snowbluff]

Have class features, and require you to bend backwords and lose CL trying to get into them(Or being stuck on an inferior list). Arcane Heirophant requires levels in Druid, and Fochlucan Lyrist is near as bad.

Mystic Theurge is really the best Theurge PrC. And it is amazing.

*AHEM*

Arcane Hierophant. It's like being a Druid but you get Wizard/Arcane Casting as well.

[Larkas]

It's a pity... Were it not for the lost 9s, this would make the True Necromancer very interesting :smallfrown:

[Little Brother]

*AHEM*

Arcane Hierophant. It's like being a Druid but you get Wizard/Arcane Casting as well.And druid casting sucks. And, your arcane casting is still going to be gimped, as is your wildshape. Not worth it. Theurge is simply better.

[Jarian]

And druid casting sucks. And, your arcane casting is still going to be gimped, as is your wildshape. Not worth it. Theurge is simply better.


Druid casting sucks.

what.

In exchange for one level and a feat, I get to add 11th level Wizard casting on top of my already OP Druid casting + animal companion + wildshape + my animal companion gets EVEN BETTER.

Man, Arcane Hierophant is such a bad prestige class. It only gives me two dumptrucks full of free candy instead of three. Forget that.

[Snowbluff]

what.

In exchange for one level and a feat, I get to add 11th level Wizard casting on top of my already OP Druid casting + animal companion + wildshape + my animal companion gets EVEN BETTER.

Man, Arcane Hierophant is such a bad prestige class. It only gives me two dumptrucks full of free candy instead of three. Forget that.

Thank you. I can't think of a Theurgy that builds on a base class so well. The closest things we get to this are the ones for Warlock.

[Hiro Protagonest]

However, I thought I'd mention it because it has some major implications as far as the power level of the Mystic Theurge is concerned.

Pun-pun doesn't make paladins tier 1. An obscure feat from Dragon Mag for specialist necromancers doesn't make Mystic Theurge meaningfully better.

As for Mystic Theurge and Arcane Heirophant... Arcane Heirophant is better. I'm not sure why the druid spell list is teh suck, considering it's what makes it tier 1, and with Precocious Apprentice, you're losing exactly one level of druid casting and Wild Shape in exchange for some more versatility and a couple unique features.

[Arcanist]

Ooh, good find. I will be adding this to my handbook, now.

Which Dragon has this? 325?

Also, who says Mystic Theurge is a poor class? :smallannoyed:

I sure as hell disagree on anyone saying Mystic/Psychic Theurge is a bad class :smallamused:

Psychic Theruge was legitimately the only reason I ever learned anything about Psionics :smallamused:

Wizard/9 Ur-priest/2 Mystic Theruge/9 and look at that dual 9's with minimal effort and little to no optimization :smallamused: Sure its DAD (Int and Wis and if you want Codzilla BS Cha making to MAD for a Theurge in my opinion)

Lots of character options with this type of character... my personal favorite is hands down Divine Defiance :smalltongue: , Counterspelling as an Immediate action? Hell yeah! I believe a feat like this will help Mystic Theurges out there everywhere :smallamused:


what.

In exchange for one level and a feat, I get to add 11th level Wizard casting on top of my already OP Druid casting + animal companion + wildshape + my animal companion gets EVEN BETTER.

Druid casting sucks, animal companion can be replaced with a spell as can Wildshape, and the spell that replaces animal companion has much more variability...

I would honestly rather have Clerical casting instead of Druid Casting (Better Spell list, Turn Undead, Divine Metamagic, cmon do I need to spell it out?)

Although I will take it as a personal challenge to get Dual 9's using the Blighter class :smallamused:


Man, Arcane Hierophant is such a bad prestige class. It only gives me two dumptrucks full of free candy instead of three. Forget that.

I'd rather have 3 dumptrucks full of free candy... Arcane Hierophant is like 2 dumptrucks of sugar free candy... :smallannoyed:

[Snowbluff]

Druid casting sucks, animal companion can be replaced with a spell as can Wildshape, and the spell that replaces animal companion has much more variability...

I would honestly rather have Clerical casting instead of Druid Casting (Better Spell list, Turn Undead, Divine Metamagic, cmon do I need to spell it out?)


1) Druids are T1 Casters. Sucking is not their forte.

2) Shapechange is the only spell that replaces WS, and most of it's more common (read: won't get you kicked off the table) uses can be replicated using Wildshape feats.

3) Familiar Companions are essentially another one of you running around with all of your buffs and no reason to do anything other than rip your enemies to shreds. Feats in #325 makes them even have more HD than you do.

4) Turn Undead is nice for persistomancy, but you pretty much accomplish what most Clericzilla do with Wildshape. I'm a very big cleric player, and I know DMM is nice, but a 2 level dip in Incantatrix does the same for most people. Or a single dip in a Turn granting PRC.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Druid casting sucks, animal companion can be replaced with a spell as can Wildshape, and the spell that replaces animal companion has much more variability...

I would honestly rather have Clerical casting instead of Druid Casting (Better Spell list, Turn Undead, Divine Metamagic, cmon do I need to spell it out?)

This.... what is this? Please tell me that you aren't serious.



Although I will take it as a personal challenge to get Dual 9's using the Blighter class :smallamused:

I'd rather have 3 dumptrucks full of free candy... Arcane Hierophant is like 2 dumptrucks of sugar free candy... :smallannoyed:

The point that Jarian's trying to make is the fact that slightly less than obscenely good is still obscenely good.

[Arcanist]

=>Snowbluff

1) Druids are T1 Casters. Sucking is not their forte.

Compare a Druid's spell list to a Wizard's and a Cleric's and then tell me that a Druid is still superior...

EDIT: OR BE A BIGGER JERK AND THROW ARCHIVIST IN THE MIX :smallbiggrin:

If you recall, In no way did I say that Druid isn't deserving of its position as a T1 I simply stated that other T1's have better spell list. I suppose I should have made it more obvious by leaving a note at the bottom stating "Warning: This is in comparison to Wizard's spell list and Cleric's"


2) Shapechange is the only spell that replaces WS, and most of it's more common (read: won't get you kicked off the table) uses can be replicated using Wildshape feats.

Apparently Polymorph isn't a spell... ah well :smallfrown:


3) Familiar Companions are essentially another one of you running around with all of your buffs and no reason to do anything other than rip your enemies to shreds. Feats in #325 makes them even have more HD than you do.

Fair enough, I'm not to versed in making a familiar god in addition to the Wizard


4) Turn Undead is nice for persistomancy, but you pretty much accomplish what most Clericzilla do with Wildshape. I'm a very big cleric player, and I know DMM is nice, but a 2 level dip in Incantatrix does the same for most people. Or a single dip in a Turn granting PRC.

Oh joy, you've noticed that most T1's have moderate access to persistomancy (WS, DMM, and Incantatrix)


=>Kuulvheysoon

This.... what is this? Please tell me that you aren't serious.

If i was sarcastic I would be using blue text my friend :smalltongue:


The point that Jarian's trying to make is the fact that slightly less than obscenely good is still obscenely good.

Actually slightly less then obscenely good is slightly less then obscenely good... :smallconfused: Thats like saying slightly darker then red is still red (Its scarlet or Crimson... can't remember off the top of my head)

[Jarian]

Compare a Druid's spell list to a Wizard's and a Cleric's and then tell me that a Druid is still superior...

Druid can blast with 90% of the effectiveness of the arcane casters, can heal and buff as well as a Cleric, has some of the best BC in the game, and some of the strongest single target disables available. Oh, and they can turn into wolves. Or bears. Or whatever. With spells.

So yeah.

None of the t1 casters are strictly superior to the others. They're all stupidly powerful.

[demigodus]

Compare a Druid's spell list to a Wizard's and a Cleric's and then tell me that a Druid is still superior...

EDIT: OR BE A BIGGER JERK AND THROW ARCHIVIST IN THE MIX :smallbiggrin:

Wait... are you seriously saying anything that can't outcast a wizard, cleric, or an archivist sucks? Seriously? Those are some really high standards for minimum acceptance.

Yes, it might fail to contribute in a VERY high op game, but honestly, I wouldn't call that a valid baseline for judging classes by.

Also, I have to add, that as far as I'm aware, Druids are straight up the best when it comes to blowing away entire armies/cities. Yes, gate/wish/miracle might pull off the same shtick, but druids don't need to hit level 17 to get spells to rewrite maps in just a few rounds, without getting too creative.

[Snowbluff]

=>Snowbluff


Compare a Druid's spell list to a Wizard's and a Cleric's and then tell me that a Druid is still superior...

EDIT: OR BE A BIGGER JERK AND THROW ARCHIVIST IN THE MIX :smallbiggrin:

If you recall, In no way did I say that Druid isn't deserving of its position as a T1 I simply stated that other T1's have better spell list. I suppose I should have made it more obvious by leaving a note at the bottom stating "Warning: This is in comparison to Wizard's spell list and Cleric's"

Yeah, fair's fair. The status of different lists when compared to each other is debatable. Then again, that's why we're theurging, isn't it?

ArcHier can be used with other classes than Druid, thanks to Bamboo Treefolk. You just won't get most of the good stuff. A complete Familiar Companion can still be done with Obtain Familiar and the Wizard AnC ACF.




Apparently Polymorph isn't a spell... ah well :smallfrown:



IIRC, Poly doesn't give (Ex). Enhance Wildshape does. Add that to the multitude of forms available wit hfeats (Dragons, Aberrations, cold things like Cryohydras) and you're pretty tough in a fight.


Fair enough, I'm not to versed in making a familiar god in addition to the Wizard

Not many people are. It's okay, it's just ubermount tomfoolery. Protip: Knight Ranger of F(something) :smallwink:




Oh joy, you've noticed that most T1's have moderate access to persistomancy (WS, DMM, and Incantatrix)


Yeah, kinda makes the "Clerics get DMM" argument a little pointless, doesn't it?

[Arcanist]

=>Jarian

Druid can blast with 90% of the effectiveness of the arcane casters, can heal and buff as well as a Cleric, has some of the best BC in the game, and some of the strongest single target disables available. Oh, and they can turn into wolves. Or bears. Or whatever. With spells.

So yeah.

1) How rarely do Wizards blast things? :smallconfused: Thats not playing Optimal... thats playing stupid...

2) Neat so they can be replaced by an Eternal wand of Cure Minor Wounds/Vigor :smallconfused:

3) No... Just no...

4) a Wizard and Cleric (Trickery) can do that as well except more and at level 20 a Druid at core is bound by the limits of Animals, Plants, Elementals...

I can't wait till someone says "Congrats! You've discovered that a Core Wizard and Cleric can do everything every other class can do except better!" :smallamused:

EDIT: Oh someone already said it :smalltongue:

=>demigodus

Wait... are you seriously saying anything that can't outcast a wizard, cleric, or an archivist sucks? Seriously? Those are some really high standards for minimum acceptance.

Where in the 9 hells are people getting that I said Druid sucks? I simply said the spell list sucks (your opinion may vary) In a core game (Ignoring the fact that Archivist isn't core) still has an ineffective list... Sure Druid is a great class, its class features are great, and the builds for it are even greater but compared to a class with a clearly superior spell list it is still clearly lacking man...


Also, I have to add, that as far as I'm aware, Druids are straight up the best when it comes to blowing away entire armies/cities. Yes, gate/wish/miracle might pull off the same shtick, but druids don't need to hit level 17 to get spells to rewrite maps in just a few rounds, without getting too creative.

I'm gonna need this explained to me :smallconfused: because a Cleric 5 and a Wizard 7 can do this as well and it'll pop more vains on the DM's neck :smallamused:

=>Snowbluff

Yeah, fair's fair. The status of different lists when compared to each other is debatable. Then again, that's why we're theurging, isn't it?

Actually we're discussing if the Druid spell list is a better choice then the Cleric spell list to add to a Theurge :smalltongue: so far? I'm not seeing it as an optimal choice. I'm curious if anyone can get maximum Wild Shape Progression and maintain Dual 9's :smallbiggrin:


ArcHier can be used with other classes than Druid, thanks to Bamboo Treefolk. You just won't get most of the good stuff. A complete Familiar Companion can still be done with Obtain Familiar and the Wizard AnC ACF.

I forget, what book are Bamboo Treefolk in? :smallconfused:


IIRC, Poly doesn't give (Ex). Enhance Wildshape does. Add that to the multitude of forms available wit hfeats (Dragons, Aberrations, cold things like Cryohydras) and you're pretty tough in a fight.

Ooo i like that one :smallamused: Good arguement... I'll give you that one :smallbiggrin:

[Jarian]

1) How rarely do Wizards blast things? :smallconfused: Thats not playing Optimal... thats playing stupid...

You seem to spout internet fallacies like a leaky garden hose. BC, save-or-suck, whatever - those are all reasonable and effective uses of arcane spells. However, when the rest of your party is dealing damage to something and it's at, say, sub-half health, do you hit said thing with more BC, or do you slam it with damage and just finish it off?

You can deal damage without metamagicked-to-high-heavens orbs of X, without being a mailman, and without blowing up suns, you know.

And if you decide to go with Save-or-X of choice, and it fails on the creature? You just wasted a spell slot that could have ended the encounter, to no effect. If your save DCs are so high that the creature has no reasonable chance of resisting, then the encounter wasn't a challenge anyway.

If you ask me, an arcane caster that can only do one thing (damage, or no damage) has made some very poor choices along the lines, and he's the one playing stupid.


2) Neat so they can be replaced by an Eternal wand of Cure Minor Wounds/Vigor :smallconfused:

Let me know how that lesser vigor works for you when you get popped by Harm, or some unfortunate rolls from a breath weapon, or whatever. My guess is you'd rather have a caster capable of using Heal, but hey, Fast Healing 1 makes you immortal I guess.


3) No... Just no...

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


I can't wait till someone says "Congrats! You've discovered that a Core Wizard and Cleric can do everything every other class can do except better!" :smallamused:

Congrats, you've discovered why tier 1 casters are tier 1. Go you.

[Spuddles]

Have class features, and require you to bend backwords and lose CL trying to get into them(Or being stuck on an inferior list). Arcane Heirophant requires levels in Druid, and Fochlucan Lyrist is near as bad.

Mystic Theurge is really the best Theurge PrC. And it is amazing.

Arcane Heirophant is about 10x better than Mystic Theurge, imo. Dragonspawn loredrake spellhoarding kobold druid 5/conjurer 1/AH10/MT4. Gets you double 9ths, 15th level wildshape, 15th level AC (18 with feat) and 18th lvl familiar. And spontaneous SNA.

Less cheesy than loredrak abuse- you pick up versatile spell caster so you can use druid spell slots to cast spells as a wizard of your level +1. Slots get burned up faster in combat, but it means you can still get stuff like lesser planar binding and teleport.

Wizard isn't that great of a class, imo. It's better as a dip alongside a full caster class that can spontaneously cast and get access to all those sweet wizard spells with versatile spellcaster.

[Larkas]

Wizard isn't that great of a class, imo. It's better as a dip alongside a full caster class that can spontaneously cast and get access to all those sweet wizard spells with versatile spellcaster.

I can see where you're coming from, but when you stop to consider a Focused Specialist Wizard you will get why that isn't necessarily true. You get just as many spell slots as a Sorcerer, with better versatility - even with 3 banned spell schools.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You seem to spout internet fallacies like a leaky garden hose. BC, save-or-suck, whatever - those are all reasonable and effective uses of arcane spells. However, when the rest of your party is dealing damage to something and it's at, say, sub-half health, do you hit said thing with more BC, or do you slam it with damage and just finish it off?

You can deal damage without metamagicked-to-high-heavens orbs of X, without being a mailman, and without blowing up suns, you know.

And if you decide to go with Save-or-X of choice, and it fails on the creature? You just wasted a spell slot that could have ended the encounter, to no effect. If your save DCs are so high that the creature has no reasonable chance of resisting, then the encounter wasn't a challenge anyway.

If you ask me, an arcane caster that can only do one thing (damage, or no damage) has made some very poor choices along the lines, and he's the one playing stupid.

Yes. Just... yes. Far more eloquent than I could hope to be.


Let me know how that lesser vigor works for you when you get popped by Harm, or some unfortunate rolls from a breath weapon, or whatever. My guess is you'd rather have a caster capable of using Heal, but hey, Fast Healing 1 makes you immortal I guess.

An excellent point - although in-combat healing is less efficient, one doesn't much care about the efficiency if that Ogre gets a lucky crit.


You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Inconceivable!

[Lonely Tylenol]

Dread Necromancer 8/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 would be able to control ([4+CHA mod]*8) + (10*4) + (19*4) HD worth of creatures, unless I'm mistaken (and I probably am, with Theurge shenanigans abound). With, say, a 28 CHA (18+4 class levels + a +6 item), you'd control ([4+9]*8) + (29*4) = 220 HD worth of undead. Not bad.

EDIT: Nevermind, Dread Necro has bad Fort save and doesn't get Fort +3 until 9th level. A Dread Necromancer 9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 9 is still a possibility. I'll edit again with the math on that.

[Snowbluff]

Dread Necromancer 8/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 would be able to control ([4+CHA mod]*8) + (10*4) + (19*4) HD worth of creatures, unless I'm mistaken (and I probably am, with Theurge shenanigans abound). With, say, a 28 CHA (18+4 class levels + a +6 item), you'd control ([4+9]*8) + (29*4) = 220 HD worth of undead. Not bad.

Theurgic Specialist requires specialist wizard.:smallfrown:

[Lonely Tylenol]

Theurgic Specialist requires specialist wizard.:smallfrown:

:smallyuk: Way to kill a buzz.

[Arcanist]

=>Jarian

You seem to spout internet fallacies like a leaky garden hose. BC, save-or-suck, whatever - those are all reasonable and effective uses of arcane spells. However, when the rest of your party is dealing damage to something and it's at, say, sub-half health, do you hit said thing with more BC, or do you slam it with damage and just finish it off?

My question is: Why did the chunk of XP make it past round 1 if a Wizard is present? Please, point out the fallacies... I'd like to learn something today.


You can deal damage without metamagicked-to-high-heavens orbs of X, without being a mailman, and without blowing up suns, you know.

Yes, its called taking out a knife and stabbing something but honestly? that is so sub-optimal...


And if you decide to go with Save-or-X of choice, and it fails on the creature? You just wasted a spell slot that could have ended the encounter, to no effect. If your save DCs are so high that the creature has no reasonable chance of resisting, then the encounter wasn't a challenge anyway.

Why the hell would you use Save/SR spells when we have plenty of just die spells... Any way you look at it, even allowing the creature a hope to kill you is sub-optimal... This kind of makes the next argument kind of moot...


Let me know how that lesser vigor works for you when you get popped by Harm, or some unfortunate rolls from a breath weapon, or whatever. My guess is you'd rather have a caster capable of using Heal, but hey, Fast Healing 1 makes you immortal I guess.


If you ask me, an arcane caster that can only do one thing (damage, or no damage) has made some very poor choices along the lines, and he's the one playing stupid.

I couldn't agree more. Why limit yourself to damage or no damage when just killing the target is always a viable option? :smalltongue:


You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk)

Cmon at least link the video :smalltongue:


Congrats, you've discovered why tier 1 casters are tier 1. Go you.

*Places medal on chest* Thank you very much :smallamused:

=>Spuddles

Arcane Heirophant is about 10x better than Mystic Theurge, imo. Dragonspawn loredrake spellhoarding kobold druid 5/conjurer 1/AH10/MT4. Gets you double 9ths, 15th level wildshape, 15th level AC (18 with feat) and 18th lvl familiar. And spontaneous SNA.

Less cheesy than loredrak abuse- you pick up versatile spell caster so you can use druid spell slots to cast spells as a wizard of your level +1. Slots get burned up faster in combat, but it means you can still get stuff like lesser planar binding and teleport.

Wizard isn't that great of a class, imo. It's better as a dip alongside a full caster class that can spontaneously cast and get access to all those sweet wizard spells with versatile spellcaster.

The thread in my signature completely tears that build to pieces :smalltongue: I refuse to allow this thread to turn into DW Kobold thread...

[Little Brother]

what.The druid list is inferior to both the cleric and wizard list. By a significant amount.

In exchange for one level and a feat, I get to add 11th level Wizard casting on top of my already OP Druid casting + animal companion + wildshape + my animal companion gets EVEN BETTER.
Man, Arcane Hierophant is such a bad prestige class. It only gives me two dumptrucks full of free candy instead of three. Forget that.[/QUOTE]Yeah. You get 11th level arcane spells by throwing out three levels of druid. When Wizard casting is vastly superior? Not a good trade. Especially since the BAB restriction makes it hard to get into before level 8. Bad trade. Or, if you focus on wizard, you get no or next to no wildshape, which is inferior to Polymorph of Shapechange anyways. Oh, and your companion will suck.

Bad deal. I'll just stick with my Ur-Theurge.

EDIT: Didn't post when I left, stupid error. Getting back one what I missed, one moment.

[Jarian]

The druid list is inferior to both the cleric and wizard list. By a significant amount.

My head hurts. I need to go lie down after reading your posts.

But you do have a point. If you take one of the worst designed PrCs ever (Ur-Priest) and theurge it, you get a better theurge. Go figure.


My question is: Why did the chunk of XP make it past round 1 if a Wizard is present? Please, point out the fallacies... I'd like to learn something today.

Because Schrodinger's Wizard doesn't actually exist. Creatures make saves with some degree of reliability. Touch attacks miss on occasion. If neither of these happen, then we're back to the encounter not being a challenge in the first place.


Yes, its called taking out a knife and stabbing something but honestly? that is so sub-optimal...

"Hm. Do I stab* this thing for its last 20 hp, or do I go with a 40% chance of having my spell resisted? Gosh darn it, this is so hard!"

*blast


Why the hell would you use Save/SR spells when we have plenty of just die spells... Any way you look at it, even allowing the creature a hope to kill you is sub-optimal... This kind of makes the next argument kind of moot...

No Save, No SR, Just Die spells don't exist. The closest thing I can think of off the top of my head is Fleshshiver, which is No Save You're Almost Assuredly Going to Die, but that allows SR.

Edit: inb4 Holy Word. Back to encounter not being a challenge.


I couldn't agree more. Why limit yourself to damage or no damage when just killing the target is always a viable option? :smalltongue:

Saving throws happen. I know, Schrodinger's Wizard always has impossibly high save DCs and the enemies never make them. Unfortunately, real games don't actually play like that.

[Arcanist]

But you do have a point. If you take one of the worst designed PrCs ever (Ur-Priest) and theurge it, you get a better theurge. Go figure.

...


My head hurts. I need to go lie down after reading your posts. In case you can't tell I'm using your own response as my own.

[Little Brother]

Druid can blast with 90% of the effectiveness of the arcane casters, can heal and buff as well as a Cleric, has some of the best BC in the game, and some of the strongest single target disables available. Oh, and they can turn into wolves. Or bears. Or whatever. With spells.No. Blasting sucks and their disables are garbage compared to a wizard. They can heal? Oh, hey, I hear mass lesser vigor exists. Or are you implying in-combat healing is useful in any way?

None of the t1 casters are strictly superior to the others. They're all stupidly powerful.The wizard list is, by far, the best, so unless you already have a pimped-out spellbook AND take aberrant Wildshape, then you are SOL.

Arcane Heirophant is about 10x better than Mystic Theurge, imo. Dragonspawn loredrake spellhoarding kobold druid 5/conjurer 1/AH10/MT4. Gets you double 9ths, 15th level wildshape, 15th level AC (18 with feat) and 18th lvl familiar. And spontaneous SNA. Doesn't work. You need to be a sorcerer for any benefit(Spellhoarding changes you to wizard casting, but on the sorcerer chassis).

Less cheesy than loredrak abuse- you pick up versatile spell caster so you can use druid spell slots to cast spells as a wizard of your level +1. Slots get burned up faster in combat, but it means you can still get stuff like lesser planar binding and teleport. Doesn't work, either.

Wizard isn't that great of a class, imo. It's better as a dip alongside a full caster class that can spontaneously cast and get access to all those sweet wizard spells with versatile spellcaster.What? No. And versatile caster doesn't work that way.

My head hurts. I need to go lie down after reading your posts.

But you do have a point. If you take one of the worst designed PrCs ever (Ur-Priest) and theurge it, you get a better theurge. Go figure.Nope. Cleric/Wizard is still a better combo. For one thing, you can get 9s early with cleric. Clerics also get toys. You have a class feature totally invalidated by Polymorph(and Shapechange), unless you're willing to pay a feat tax AND buy a spellbook. Are you?

No? Okay. Seriously, though, please tell me you're joking about the Druid list being actually good? The only stand-out things it has are really Shapecahnge and the like. All of which, you know, wizard has, and more.

So, I'm hearing that system mastery is pro.

EDIT:
Because Schrodinger's Wizard doesn't actually exist. Creatures make saves with some degree of reliability. Touch attacks miss on occasion. If neither of these happen, then we're back to the encounter not being a challenge in the first place.Uh, bro? Read Exemplars of Evil. Page 26.

What were you saying?

"Hm. Do I stab* this thing for its last 20 hp, or do I go with a 40% chance of having my spell resisted? Gosh darn it, this is so hard!"

*blastWut.

No Save, No SR, Just Die spells don't exist. The closest thing I can think of off the top of my head is Fleshshiver, which is No Save You're Almost Assuredly Going to Die, but that allows SR.Yeah, they do.

Saving throws happen. I know, Schrodinger's Wizard always has impossibly high save DCs and the enemies never make them. Unfortunately, real games don't actually play like that.>Asserting your game is the One True Way, and any other way is badwrongfun?

I need to lie down...

[Jarian]

No. Blasting sucks and their disables are garbage compared to a wizard.

Oh. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfThorns.htm) ok (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-divine--56/enveloping-cocoon--701/) ay. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm)


They can heal? Oh, hey, I hear mass lesser vigor exists. Or are you implying in-combat healing is useful in any way?

Yes, I am. Every post you make (everywhere, not only here) shows that you don't play real games. Everything you type is theory-op where nobody ever takes sufficient damage in an encounter to warrant a heal, etc. If you pit optimized characters against unoptimized challenges, then that's correct. But you might as well just play freeform if that's how the combats in your games go. Personally, I expect my DM to optimize his encounters relative to our party's optimization.


The wizard list is, by far, the best, so unless you already have a pimped-out spellbook AND take aberrant Wildshape, then you are SOL.

Yes, yes, wizards can do anything with enough Schrodinger Power. This is new and exciting.


So, I'm hearing that system mastery is pro.

Blindly parroting things you've heard on the internet is not pro, no. Sorry to burst your bubble.



>Asserting your game is the One True Way, and any other way is badwrongfun?

I need to lie down...

Strawman argument. -1 point.

[Snowbluff]

Oh. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfThorns.htm) ok (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-divine--56/enveloping-cocoon--701/) ay. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm)

Yes, I am. Every post you make (everywhere, not only here) shows that you don't play real games. Everything you type is theory-op where nobody ever takes sufficient damage in an encounter to warrant a heal, etc. If you pit optimized characters against unoptimized challenges, then that's correct. But you might as well just play freeform if that's how the combats in your games go. Personally, I expect my DM to optimize his encounters relative to our party's optimization.

Yes, yes, wizards can do anything with enough Schrodinger Power. This is new and exciting.

Blindly parroting things you've heard on the internet is not pro, no. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Strawman argument. -1 point.

Marry me? Plz with a Celerity one top?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Oh. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfThorns.htm) ok (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-divine--56/enveloping-cocoon--701/) ay. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm)

Yes, I am. Every post you make (everywhere, not only here) shows that you don't play real games. Everything you type is theory-op where nobody ever takes sufficient damage in an encounter to warrant a heal, etc. If you pit optimized characters against unoptimized challenges, then that's correct. But you might as well just play freeform if that's how the combats in your games go. Personally, I expect my DM to optimize his encounters relative to our party's optimization.

Yes, yes, wizards can do anything with enough Schrodinger Power. This is new and exciting.

Blindly parroting things you've heard on the internet is not pro, no. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Strawman argument. -1 point.

WIN.

That is all.

[Giegue]

I find it highly amusing how a thread about the potential of an obscure feat has turned into an all out verbal brawl over a fact I thought was already well-established. Arcane Herophant IS strictly better then MT, since it actually levels up some of the features of both classes. Yes, the cleric list is slightly better then the druid list in most cases, but the fact that the Arcane Heirophant gets dual progression and wildshape + other features while the MT just gets dual progression makes arcane hierophant strictly better. Heck, if True Necromancer actually gave you ninths on at least one side of your casting I'd argue that even it was better then MT, but since it dose not that won't happen.

However, I brought up mystic theurge because this thread was, if anybody remembers, originally about Necromancy, and since the druid list has next to nothing in the way of necromancy and clerics get other necromantic toys druids don't I used an MT in my example, since an MT is the better necromancer(though not the better character) when compared to an arcane hierophant.

[Arcanist]

{{scrubbed}}

[Hiro Protagonest]

Uh, Arcanist? I'd like to see some of those "no save, just die"s...

And from Little Bro's posts on these forums in general, she's either in some games with people who consider it heresy to not use handbooks on the Internet to max out your character (unless you've memorized those handbooks by heart), or she is indeed just taking most of her stuff from the Internet (and it's not all that unlikely. That's basically my situation, since part of my gaming group, including the DM, goes to an intense private school, and the DM is now going off to college this year. I haven't played anything beyond one session for over a year now).

[Jarian]

{{scrubbed}}

[Little Brother]

Oh. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfThorns.htm) ok (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-divine--56/enveloping-cocoon--701/) ay. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm)Wall of Thorns? Sure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfFire.htm) very (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) use (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIron.htm)ful (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfStone.htm). Very (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIce.htm). I'm sure that cocoon can (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm) compare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) to a wizard's 6s. Or even lower (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdMonster.htm).

And I hear wizards get Baleful Polymorph, too. And other, better spells. And I haven't left core.

Yes, I am. Every post you make (everywhere, not only here) shows that you don't play real games. Everything you type is theory-op where nobody ever takes sufficient damage in an encounter to warrant a heal, etc. If you pit optimized characters against unoptimized challenges, then that's correct. But you might as well just play freeform if that's how the combats in your games go. Personally, I expect my DM to optimize his encounters relative to our party's optimization.Yeah, the only thing that can compete with a wizard is a wizard(Or maybe a cleric). I do play, and when I play high-power, so does the DM. It doesn't matter. And I can tell you've never played a high OP game in your life. Because, of course, it's badwrongfun.

Yes, yes, wizards can do anything with enough Schrodinger Power. This is new and exciting.Exemplars of Evil, page 26. Look it up.

Blindly parroting things you've heard on the internet is not pro, no. Sorry to burst your bubble.But, you know, basic understanding of the game is. Sorry to disappoint you.

Strawman argument. -1 point.No, it really isn't. You are obviously claiming either high-OP doesn't exist IRL, or is badwrongfun. Which is it?
/yawn

And, Giegue, the MT is better because you don't have to shoot one side of the theurge in the foot to qualify. I like double 9s. Jus' sayin. Class features or whatever<<<<<<<<Double 9s and DMM.

[Jarian]

And I hear wizards get Baleful Polymorph, too. And other, better spells. And I haven't left core.

Actually, that cocoon is good, yes. The difference between the Druid and the Wizard (in this very specific case that you brought up, I hasten to add) is that while the Wizard can remove something from the fight with a save, the Druid in question removes something from a fight, then no-save baleful polymorphs it when that ends.

However, you're straying very far from the original point by now. All t1 casters have their own stupidly powerful tricks. I think I pointed that out in my first post or so, so I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this tangent.


Yeah, the only thing that can compete with a wizard is a wizard(Or maybe a cleric). I do play, and when I play high-power, so does the DM. It doesn't matter. And I can tell you've never played a high OP game in your life. Because, of course, it's badwrongfun.

Ad hominem again. You're wrong, of course, but that doesn't excuse a faulty argument basis. As a matter of fact, I regularly DM for a high op group. DMM, Incantatrix, Planar Shepherd (Plane of Dreams banned of course, but eh) have all been featured on my players' sheets. I can compensate because I know 3.5 well enough to pose a challenge, and the Druid regularly throws out heals because it's a choice between that or dying. The Incantatrix has contingencies, of course, but the rest of the party don't. In-combat healing is featured - prominently - in this high op game that I supposedly don't run, and supposedly don't have the system mastery to support.

Next.


But, you know, basic understanding of the game is. Sorry to disappoint you.
No, it really isn't. You are obviously claiming either high-OP doesn't exist IRL, or is badwrongfun. Which is it?
/yawn

There is a difference between high op, and high op thrown against unoptimzed encounters. Please read and absorb posts before replying, thank you.

[Giegue]

Yes, but the only way to get double nines with an MT is with Ur-Priest or stacking MT with, guess what? Arcane Hierophant. While the U-Priest method IS noteworthy, it is also considered extreme cheese by many DMs. If you DM lets you play it then go ahead, but from a practical standpoint, some DMs just won't allow Ur-Priest, Beholder Mage and other super-cheesy fast progression classes.

I suppose that some kind of prodigious mad optimizer could somehow squeak double nines out of a Frankenstein combination of MT and True Necromancer. If so then I may take what I say back, but I'd have to see such a trick done, first.

However, in the end do what works for your games. Just because I play with people that will roll fighters and monks dose not mean that I assume you do as well. In the end, what is practical depends highly on your game group, and in strict theory-op your mostly right since in theoretical discussions classes like Ur-Priest, Beholder Mage, Sublime Chord ect.. are on the table. However, Arcane Hierophant can also get double nines. All you need to do is combind it with MT. So, Arcane Hierophant and MT are about even OP wise, in the end, because both can get double nines with a very specialized built(Ur-Theurge and AH/MT combo)

[Snowbluff]

Ad hominem again. You're wrong, of course, but that doesn't excuse a faulty argument basis. As a matter of fact, I regularly DM for a high op group. DMM, Incantatrix, Planar Shepherd (Plane of Dreams banned of course, but eh) have all been featured on my players' sheets. I can compensate because I know 3.5 well enough to pose a challenge, and the Druid regularly throws out heals because it's a choice between that or dying. The Incantatrix has contingencies, of course, but the rest of the party don't. In-combat healing is featured - prominently - in this high op game that I supposedly don't run, and supposedly don't have the system mastery to support.

There is a difference between high op, and high op thrown against unoptimzed encounters. Please read and absorb posts before replying, thank you.

This. Healing comes up more than I'd care to admit, even with the layers my compatriots and I put between us and pointy things. Just a few days ago I blasting away with Wing of Flurry in a Tournament, and the Apostle of Peace my little bro made kept a lot of people alive.


Yes, but the only way to get double nines with an MT is with Ur-Priest or stacking MT with, guess what? Arcane Hierophant. While the U-Priest method IS noteworthy, it is also considered extreme cheese by many DMs. If you DM lets you play it then go ahead, but from a practical standpoint, some DMs just won't allow Ur-Priest, Beholder Mage and other super-cheesy fast progression classes.

I suppose that some kind of prodigious mad optimizer could somehow squeak double nines out of a Frankenstein combination of MT and True Necromancer. If so then I may take what I say back, but I'd have to see such a trick done, first.

Legacy Champ might help.

[Larkas]

Heck, if True Necromancer actually gave you ninths on at least one side of your casting I'd argue that even it was better then MT, but since it dose not that won't happen.

Well, you can... With Ur-Priest. But, then again, what does Ur-Priest NOT enable? :smalltongue:

Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 2/True Necromancer 9

Too bad you lose 5 levels of True Necromancer, with all the goodies that come with those, but I guess it is better than Clr 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/X 4. Then again, I'm sure you can do better with earlier entry into Ur-Priest... :smallsmile:

[Little Brother]

{{scrubbed}}

[Kuulvheysoon]

This. Healing comes up more than I'd care to admit, even with the layers my compatriots and I put between us and pointy things. Just a few days ago I blasting away with Wing of Flurry in a Tournament, and the Apostle of Peace my little bro made kept a lot of people alive.

You better be careful or somebody's going to come down like a bag of hammers about how direct damage isn't playing a sorc/wizard correctly.:smallwink:


Legacy Champ might help.

That's... a delicate topic. Argument over whether or not dual-casting is viable to be 'continued' is pretty unclear.

[Jarian]

{{scrubbed}}

[Little Brother]

You better be careful or somebody's going to come down like a bag of hammers about how direct damage isn't playing a sorc/wizard correctly.:smallwink:Blasting is playing a Sorcerer optimally(I dislike using the word correctly in this context), but a wizard is playing badly. Better options.

That's... a delicate topic. Argument over whether or not dual-casting is viable to be 'continued' is pretty unclear.Well, the fact that there's an Epic theurge(Which sucks) kinda begs to disagree with the dual advancement.

EDIT:
While you've abandoned your argument entirely and thus I see no further use for this thread, you're wrong one final time. You first displayed that you don't know what a strawman argument is, then just now demonstrated that you don't know what ad hominem means. I think, perhaps, you should take those classes, or at least brush up on your logical fallacies.Nope. You were the one making unsupported claims about my playing and using that as an argument, and when I call ya on it, that doesn't make it an ad Hominem or a strawman. Try again. Ad Hominem means, quite specifically, an insult INSTEAD of an argument. So try again with your logic. Yawn, seriously

Attempting to disproved my points w.r.t the debate by bringing up aspects about me is pretty much the definition of ad hominem.Nope. Pointing out the obvious gaps in your knowledge is not an ad Hominem, and neither is making logical assumptions on the reason for it.

I think I slipped into a little ad hominem up there a few posts, though. I should have said that your every post points to you not playing real games, rather than the poor wording I did use. I don't know you, so I can't conclusively say whether you're flat out lying about actually playing IRL games with your theory-op spewing or not. Mea culpa.Which is not an ad hominem, per se. It was a totally unsupported claim(And a total non sequitur, but meh).

And I'm out, because this has wound down into (yet another, surprise) pointless internet debate with more monkey-flinging than point-making.Nope. My points are perfectly backed up with, you know, the whole wizard list. But whatever.

[Giegue]

To the person who posted the Wizard/Ur-Priest/True Necromancer build, I am sorry to burst your bubble but that build's viability under RAW is dubious at best, and some would argue non-existent. True Necromancer has access to the death domain as a prerequisite, and since Ur-Priests don't get domains many would argue that the build cannot enter True Necro due to the death domain requirement. I know that some would argue that taking Arcane Disciple and using the domain power wizard ACF to get the granted power of the death domain would allow you to qualify, there are others who would argue that such a thing dose not. RAW is confusing in this regard, and as a result such a build is not practical in the slightest and 100% dependent on what your DM considers to be access to a domain.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Forget Mystic Theurge, go Dread Necro 8/ Wizard 1/ Spellthief 1/ Ultimate Magus 10, with Master Spellthief, Theurgic Specialist, a Ring of Arcane Might, and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone.

That's caster Level 33 for three classes, so CL 99 for Necromancy spells. Get Reserves of Strength to uncap your spells and make that CL 100.

With Animate Dead uncapped, you can use it to turn a creature with >20 HD into a skeleton or zombie. (That 20 HD cap appears in those templates, it's not mentioned in the spell itself but it is a part of it.)

Looking at the Mass Inflict/Cure line of spells, they all have a set number of targets rather than any number of targets within a limited area. That means you should be able to designate the same creature multiple times with a single casting. For example, a Mass Cure Light Wounds from a 9th level caster could target three creatures twice, curing each 2d8+18, and one creature three times for 3d8+25 (it would be +27, but it's capped at +25). Why else would these spells be capped so far above 20th? That means with the above necromancer, you could cast an uncapped Mass Inflict Light Wounds to cause 1d8+100 damage to 100 targets, which could mean 100d8+10,000 damage to a single target. Empower Spell would make that 150d8+15,000 damage instead.

You could use Song of the Dead (Dragon 312) to make every spell you cast a Necromancy spell instead of its original school for a +1 metamagic cost. Mind-affecting spells modified by this feat have no affect on non-undead, but otherwise it can give you an uncapped caster level 100 with every spell you cast. Get a Slaymate (LM) via Rebuke Undead and you can use this for free. The above character could use his few Wizard spell slots to cast Song of the Dead Magic Missiles, and even use focused specialist necromancy slots for those. That's 50 missiles for 50d4+50 damage that never misses, and he can spend 4th level DN spell slots to Quicken them via UM or just Circlet of Rapid Casting and/or Lesser Rod of Quicken them.

[Larkas]

To the person who posted the Wizard/Ur-Priest/True Necromancer build, I am sorry to burst your bubble but that build's viability under RAW is dubious at best, and some would argue non-existent. True Necromancer has access to the death domain as a prerequisite, and since Ur-Priests don't get domains many would argue that the build cannot enter True Necro due to the death domain requirement. I know that some would argue that taking Arcane Disciple and using the domain power wizard ACF to get the granted power of the death domain would allow you to qualify, there are others who would argue that such a thing dose not. RAW is confusing in this regard, and as a result such a build is not practical in the slightest and 100% dependent on what your DM considers to be access to a domain.

Eeep, I was counting on Arcane Disciple on this one... Oh, well, could make for an interesting BBEG in a future game, I guess, since I'd be the DM interpreting the rules :smallredface:

But you're completely right. Depending on DM interpretation is not a good thing - specially for any build that includes Ur-Priest :smallbiggrin:

[Arcanist]

=>Jade Dragon

Uh, Arcanist? I'd like to see some of those "no save, just die"s...

Do a quick search for the old 1,000th level monk Vs 20th level Wizard thread and pick one, otherwise its gonna take me a while to find/compile the list of Spells that are "just win" buttons.

=>Jarian

CR and the encounter being a challenge to your party are two very different things.

Really? cause the way you worded it says otherwise :smallamused:


That is not a page of no-save, no-SR, killing spells. You can have No Save, No SR, or Death. Pick two.

I pick no Save/SR because Death effects are easy to shut down...


An encounter being able to challenge an optimized party is not the same as blindly following Challenge Rating. Note the capitalization difference if you please.

I guess i WAS a little silly assuming that when you said "Challenge" you meant Challenge Rating, I mean its not like you could have differentiated... :smalltongue:


Wizards having an option to deal with everything does not mean that Druid BC and single target disables are bad. You can list every single Wizard disable and counter it with a Wizard or Druid spell too. What's your point?

Those spells are garbage because they can be counted and negated with minimal effort and by the same spell over and over again... The reason it sucks is because all it needs is one response and the spell is completely wasted...


Multiclassing into a prestige class is not theory op. It's barely even practical op.

Yes because a one level dip into Wizard for Precocious apprentice for 2nd level spell access is NOT theory op:smalltongue: Cmon your contradicting yourself now...




*insert buzzer sound here*

Cute...


That's certainly a critical part of Schrodinger's Wizard, but it is not as effective as it's prated to be. You already have enough spell slots per day to prepare an enormously wide assortment of spells for every situation. The problem is just that, again, unless you go optimized vs. unoptimized encounters, they are not instant win buttons the majority of the time.

and yet you don't have enough spells per day slots to prepare EVERYTHING you would need... because a Schrodinger's Wizard doesn't always know whats going to happen and that is where Uncanny Forethought comes into play, it allows them to use the spells that they need but can't access right now due to time being a factor. Not all Wizards have 15 minutes to get that one spell they need.


Strawman into Ad hominem. Are you guys going for the Internet Debate Trifecta here?

...Actually your right :smallconfused: Why am I arguing this with


Actually, that cocoon is good, yes. The difference between the Druid and the Wizard (in this very specific case that you brought up, I hasten to add) is that while the Wizard can remove something from the fight with a save, the Druid in question removes something from a fight, then no-save baleful polymorphs it when that ends.

Actually no, because the Wizard left the confines of your cocoon 19 turns ago meaning that your no-save baleful polymorph effects whatever creature is unfortunate enough to somehow end up in the cocoon... again... somehow...


However, you're straying very far from the original point by now. All t1 casters have their own stupidly powerful tricks. I think I pointed that out in my first post or so, so I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this tangent.

Thats just down right adorable, your trying to cast blame on the transition of the thread to LB. And just think? This all started from one little post (made by you might I ad)


Ad hominem again. You're wrong, of course, but that doesn't excuse a faulty argument basis. As a matter of fact, I regularly DM for a high op group. DMM, Incantatrix, Planar Shepherd (Plane of Dreams banned of course, but eh) have all been featured on my players' sheets. I can compensate because I know 3.5 well enough to pose a challenge, and the Druid regularly throws out heals because it's a choice between that or dying. The Incantatrix has contingencies, of course, but the rest of the party don't. In-combat healing is featured - prominently - in this high op game that I supposedly don't run, and supposedly don't have the system mastery to support.

This has nothing to do with anything... Who cares how you or I or anyone else plays D&D for that matter? Dragonwroght Kobolds aren't True Dragons but does that mean DMs can't just say "Yeah they are" and the argument is over and that is how THAT table is going to play?


*Snip*

Adding large words to your comments does NOT make you sound intelligent... Actually proving your point without a doubt is what makes you sound intelligent... I'm sorry if I insulted you in anyway (just got caught up in the wave I suppose) and truly want you to prove me wrong and convince me that the druid spell list is much better then I make it out to be... however I have not seen refutable evidence to prove otherwise...

=>Little Brother

*snip*

Druid/3 Wizard/3 ArcHier/10 MT/4 look at that... Dual 9's... I never said that ArcHeir is a bad class. Not once (that I can recall...). I simply said that I do not like the Druid's spell list and it evolved into a huge arguement...

I'm actually quite happy now, not only has the argument ended but we can now get back on track...

[CTrees]

And take a formal logic class. You obviously have no idea what ad hominem means.

Amusingly, ad hominem arguments have nothing to do with formal logic. It's an informal fallacy.

[Little Brother]

Amusingly, ad hominem arguments have nothing to do with formal logic. It's an informal fallacy.DERP you're right. This whole English language thing really ain't my strong point.

Arcanist: Doesn't qualify. AH has a BAB 4 prereq, and doesn't get Wildshape(I cannot count a Druid build without WS as good).

[ngilop]

this thread had made me fall in love with Jarian


after the insults have their fallout deadened and especially 2 particualr posters syaing that everybosy who plays X styel of games are failing at D&D and shoudl lerant to play 'real games' which ig uess are what most people cosider TO ga,mes where in relaity one is stretching the rules and using them in a very ahh.. twisted definiton


though i think the single best part of this entire thread was th whole post after of post of insult then the person actually gives the definiton of Ad hominem.


anywys. Just wated to pop in an give Jarian mys uport not everbody needs to play TO style characters to have fun with D&D.. other do its not for everybody

I bake you an internet cake :)

[Arcanist]

Arcanist: Doesn't qualify. AH has a BAB 4 prereq, and doesn't get Wildshape(I cannot count a Druid build without WS as good).

Oh nevermind... :smalltongue: I'll figure something out...

[Toy Killer]

I have doubted the power of a druid over that of a cleric once.

A Fleshraker Dinosaur that can seemingly sweat out Giant Crocodiles when he doesn't wanna cast stoneskin again today... well... really warps that perspective.

I mean, sure, a wizard 'Can' do a lot of things, but so can a rogue with UMD and a readied handy harversack. But a Druid just Does a lot of things, without any help or assistance. it's well accepted that Conj (Summoning) is pretty hard core, often cited as why you never ban Conjuration from your specialist wizard. Druids summon things passively and because of that, they don't need the flashy spells wizards have. They come with versatile standard regardless of what they prepare, while wizards are only omnipotent if they have done the steps required for the situation at hand.

And just as every DM had to learn quickly, the Situation is never what you dreamed it was going to be.

Just some food for thought I suppose.

[Snowbluff]

this thread had made me fall in love with Jarian


Back off bro, that hyperbole was mine first.

Seriously, this is what I am talking about. People walking over my material, the good ones are taken, unless they aren't and the piranhas move in just as I make my move. Yes, I am aware the argument I've been having in my head has generated a non sequitur entirely impenetrable to an outside mind.


I have doubted the power of a druid over that of a cleric once.

A Fleshraker Dinosaur that can seemingly sweat out Giant Crocodiles when he doesn't wanna cast stoneskin again today... well... really warps that perspective.

I mean, sure, a wizard 'Can' do a lot of things, but so can a rogue with UMD and a readied handy harversack. But a Druid just Does a lot of things, without any help or assistance. it's well accepted that Conj (Summoning) is pretty hard core, often cited as why you never ban Conjuration from your specialist wizard. Druids summon things passively and because of that, they don't need the flashy spells wizards have. They come with versatile standard regardless of what they prepare, while wizards are only omnipotent if they have done the steps required for the situation at hand.

And just as every DM had to learn quickly, the Situation is never what you dreamed it was going to be.

Just some food for thought I suppose.

Hahahhaha... sweats crocodiles.... heh. Yeah, Druids are pretty sweet. it's silly to question the capabilities of a T1. I haven't played around with summoning much, but I've seen it used to great effectiveness.

[Larkas]

Okay, what about this:

Dread Necromancer 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 2/True Necromancer 14/Mystic Theurge 1

I used Dread Necro at the onset merely for flavor purposes: Bard is pretty much strictly better, but the bardic fluff don't mix so well with the undead fluff (at least for me). It works using this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3092.msg96437#msg96437) strategy. Basically, you take Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell to cast 2nd level arcane spells using lower level slots. It smells like cheese, of course, but it seems to be legal by RAW, and it doesn't use any fast-progression class. So, True Necro with double 9s, which can also put this Theurgic Specialist feat to good use :smallsmile:

[ngilop]

Back off bro, that hyperbole was mine first.

Seriously, this is what I am talking about. People walking over my material, the good ones are taken, unless they aren't and the piranhas move in just as I make my move. Yes, I am aware the argument I've been having in my head has generated a non sequitur entirely impenetrable to an outside mind.


I baked her an internet cake.. SO.. me thinks you are the one who should be backing off.

I now deem this thread to no longer be about LB's insults and put downs of non-TOers, but instead be about the battle between Snowbluff and myself over the love of Jarian.

I do say good sir, the next move is yours.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I baked her an internet cake.. SO.. me thinks you are the one who should be backing off.

I now deem this thread to no longer be about LB's insults and put downs of non-TOers, but instead be about the battle between Snowbluff and myself over the love of Jarian.

I do say good sir, the next move is yours.

Dude.... just... No. this thread has been derailed enough.

Back on topic, this might improve that Shadowcaster 3/Focused Necromancer 1/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 6 buil that I've been working on...

[Arcanist]

I now deem this thread to no longer be about LB's insults and put downs of non-TOers.

If that is what you thought the argument was about then... No Kuulv is right no more derailing...


Back on topic, this might improve that Shadowcaster 3/Focused Necromancer 1/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 6 buil that I've been working on...

Duel 9's very good, got a feat list set up? Recommended Race? :smallconfused: I've never been to versed in Mysteries so eh :smalltongue: wanted to try and build a cleric of Vecna based on the fluff of Shadowcaster but never got to use it...

[Kuulvheysoon]

If that is what you thought the argument was about then... No Kuulv is right no more derailing...



Dual 9's very good, got a feat list set up? Recommended Race? :smallconfused: I've never been to versed in Mysteries so eh :smalltongue: wanted to try and build a cleric of Vecna based on the fluff of Shadowcaster but never got to use it...

Shadowcaster's not that great as written, but it's not too bad to work around.

I'm going to go a little crazy here and choose Gloaming (Und), eventually buying off the LA. I mean, a free +1DC to basically all of my mysteries? Too good to pass up.

As for feats... I have no idea what the pre-reqs for this Dragon feat is, but some of the Favored Mystery feats should get good use.

One of the best parts about advancing Shadowcaster casting is the fact that the mysteries change stages with your CL, not your shadowcaster level. This includes unlimited fundamentals at CL14.

[eggs]

The Shadowcaster build would be weird. (The CL boost would only apply to the highest tier of mysteries, because the others aren't spells.)

Cool though.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The Shadowcaster build would be weird. (The CL boost would only apply to the highest tier of mysteries, because the others aren't spells.)

Cool though.

It's a low/mid-op group - I'm teamed with a warmage, scout (not swift hunter) and duskblade.

But I totally didn't even realise about the mysteries ceasing to get the boost. Huh.

[Zaq]

One of the best parts about advancing Shadowcaster casting is the fact that the mysteries change stages with your CL, not your shadowcaster level. This includes unlimited fundamentals at CL14.

I've got ToM open on my lap right now, and I'm not seeing how you're getting that interpretation. I mean, yeah, level level level, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) but I don't see how you're getting that it refers to raw CL, rather than (for lack of a better term) "effective Shadowcaster level." I'd agree that, say, Shadowcaster 5 + Mystery-Advancing-PrC 2 would let you treat apprentice mysteries as SLAs, but I don't think that just having CL 7 would let you do so, unless I'm totally misinterpreting what you're going for there . . . unless you've got a page reference to some bizarre wording that I'd expect from a certain later chapter in the same book.

[Acanous]

Arcane Heirophant is bloody awesome. The wording in Familiar Companion makes it so anything that applies to a familiar or animal companion now applies to your FC. Draconic Familiar gives you a freaking Dragon, with all the Familiar bonuses.
The Animal companion side of that? Adds HD.
What happens to a Dragon that gets bonus HD?
It gets bigger, badder, and more awesome in every way.

It can get a little murky, but aside from "Just" dual 9ths, there's ways to have your Familiar companion be a higher level caster than you.

[Spuddles]

I can see where you're coming from, but when you stop to consider a Focused Specialist Wizard you will get why that isn't necessarily true. You get just as many spell slots as a Sorcerer, with better versatility - even with 3 banned spell schools.

The benefit is spontaneously casting all wizard spells, class features of a full casting class of your choice (I prefer druid), and another spell list.



The thread in my signature completely tears that build to pieces :smalltongue: I refuse to allow this thread to turn into DW Kobold thread...

Not at all. The underlying foundation of wizard1/full caster 19 with versatile caster is in the nebulously open wording of versatile spell caster.



Doesn't work. You need to be a sorcerer for any benefit(Spellhoarding changes you to wizard casting, but on the sorcerer chassis).[quote]

Loredrake is +2 sorc levels. Non-cheesy dragonspawn is +1 sorc level. Spellhoarding changes that to wizard. L2 optimize, bro.

[quote]Doesn't work, either.
What? No. And versatile caster doesn't work that way.

If you play by RAI, it shouldn't, but the wording is 100% permissive of it. You need spontaneous casting (which druids have). You expend two spell slots. Which druids have. To cast any spell you know. Wizards know spells. In fact, a level 1 wizard, if he has the gp in inks, a source of 9th level spell info, and a sufficient spell craft check, knows 9th level spells. Throw 8th level spells on that, and the druid is casting 9th level spells at wizard1/druid15.

Demonstrate how this is wrong, plz, cause it's pretty awesome.

[Little Brother]

Not at all. The underlying foundation of wizard1/full caster 19 with versatile caster is in the nebulously open wording of versatile spell caster.


Loredrake is +2 sorc levels. Non-cheesy dragonspawn is +1 sorc level. Spellhoarding changes that to wizard. L2 optimize, bro.Listen, reread spellhoarding. It changes your sorcerer casting to wizard casting, but it's still sorcerer casting. You need levels of sorcerer. It functions like you think, but not like that.

Also, that particular DL is still third-party, so Dragonspawn doesn't work.

So, L2rules, bro

If you play by RAI, it shouldn't, but the wording is 100% permissive of it. You need spontaneous casting (which druids have). You expend two spell slots. Which druids have. To cast any spell you know. Wizards know spells. In fact, a level 1 wizard, if he has the gp in inks, a source of 9th level spell info, and a sufficient spell craft check, knows 9th level spells. Throw 8th level spells on that, and the druid is casting 9th level spells at wizard1/druid15.

Demonstrate how this is wrong, plz, cause it's pretty awesome.Strictly speaking, if you want to play, that way, the druid doesn't actually know its spells(I don't think any full-list divine caster does). Reread the druid text. The word "Know," or any variation thereof, doesn't show up in the spell rules. So, doesn't work.

[Spuddles]

Listen, reread spellhoarding. It changes your sorcerer casting to wizard casting, but it's still sorcerer casting. You need levels of sorcerer. It functions like you think, but not like that.

Also, that particular DL is still third-party, so Dragonspawn doesn't work.

A dragon also doesn't have levels of sorcerer. It changes sorcerer casting (no reference to source) to casting like a wizard+.

No need to over-interpret it.


Strictly speaking, if you want to play, that way, the druid doesn't actually know its spells(I don't think any full-list divine caster does). Reread the druid text. The word "Know," or any variation thereof, doesn't show up in the spell rules. So, doesn't work.

And you still haven't looked the rules up.

You aren't spontaneously casting druid spells (druids don't know spells); you're using druid spell slots to spontaneously cast the wizard spells that you do know. There are no specifications in the rules to handle this, only that it is permissible (paraphrased: use two unused spell slots to cast a higher level spell that you know).

Wizard is ok. Versatile spellcaster makes their general utility rather obsolete, imo.

[Little Brother]

A dragon also doesn't have levels of sorcerer. It changes sorcerer casting (no reference to source) to casting like a wizard+.

No need to over-interpret it.No need to underinterpret it, either.

And you still haven't looked the rules up.

You aren't spontaneously casting druid spells (druids don't know spells); you're using druid spell slots to spontaneously cast the wizard spells that you do know. There are no specifications in the rules to handle this, only that it is permissible (paraphrased: use two unused spell slots to cast a higher level spell that you know).Ah, misread it.

It's actually still doesn't work. Spontaneous casting is a game term(Like Advancement) for unprepped casters. The druid isn't. You still cannot cast spells without preparation.

Wizard is ok. Versatile spellcaster makes their general utility rather obsolete, imo.Okay, here you're joking, right? Versatile spellcaster can give you a couple of wizard spells, yes, but at Caster Level no. The wizard list is still infinitely superior(And they get all the good Druid spells anyways).

Plus, nobody's answered the point that, to get any amount of decent wizard casting(Excluding the versatile caster trick which probably doesn't work, and still sucks due to nonexistent wizard CL), you have no Wildshape and a pathetic companion, which are the only reason the druid is low T1.

[Spuddles]

No need to underinterpret it, either.
Ah, misread it.

It's actually still doesn't work. Spontaneous casting is a game term(Like Advancement) for unprepped casters. The druid isn't. You still cannot cast spells without preparation.

You STILL haven't looked up the rules.

Do I seriously have to spoon feed you this? A druid spontaneously casts spells. The only requirement for versatile spellcaster is the ability to spontaneously cast spells.

The mechanics for using 2 lower level spells to cast a higher level one has nothing to do with Game Terms or whatever ass-hattery you're attempting to pull.

But don't take my word for it! Look it up! It's in a book!


Okay, here you're joking, right? Versatile spellcaster can give you a couple of wizard spells, yes, but at Caster Level no. The wizard list is still infinitely superior(And they get all the good Druid spells anyways).

Plus, nobody's answered the point that, to get any amount of decent wizard casting(Excluding the versatile caster trick which probably doesn't work, and still sucks due to nonexistent wizard CL), you have no Wildshape and a pathetic companion, which are the only reason the druid is low T1.

So not only do you not read the rules, you also don't play the game?

I think we're done here.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I've got ToM open on my lap right now, and I'm not seeing how you're getting that interpretation. I mean, yeah, level level level, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) but I don't see how you're getting that it refers to raw CL, rather than (for lack of a better term) "effective Shadowcaster level." I'd agree that, say, Shadowcaster 5 + Mystery-Advancing-PrC 2 would let you treat apprentice mysteries as SLAs, but I don't think that just having CL 7 would let you do so, unless I'm totally misinterpreting what you're going for there . . . unless you've got a page reference to some bizarre wording that I'd expect from a certain later chapter in the same book.

As a matter of fact, I do. :smallbiggrin:


PRESTIGE CLASS CASTING ADVANCEMENTS
When a shadowcaster gains new casting class levels from advancement within a prestige class, this includes the knowledge of new fundamentals, and the transformation of lower-level path mysteries into spell-like or supernatural abilities. It does not include gaining bonus feats for learning new paths or any other shadowcaster class features.

This I read as saying that advancement of your effective casting level (CL) helps to advance your mysteries. Every single example character agrees with this (if it was just one or two, I'd be doubtful, considering WotC's record).

[Little Brother]

{{scrubbed}}

[Gwendol]

Do I have to spoon-feed you? Druids probably don't qualify, as they are not spontaneously casting spells.
So you cannot read or play? I think we're done here.

Strangely enough, under the description of the druid class:


Spontaneous CastingA druid can channel stored spell energy into summoning spells that she hasn’t prepared ahead of time. She can "lose" a prepared spell in order to cast any summon nature’s ally spell of the same level or lower.

So, yes. Druids can spontaneously cast spells. SNA X spells.

[Little Brother]

So, yes. Druids can spontaneously cast spells. SNA X spells.It cannot cast unprepared, which is the meaning of spontaneous as a game term(Much like advancement).

So, no. The druid cannot cast spells spontaneously. It still needs to prep them.

[Gwendol]

Yes, the druid can cast SNA X unprepared as long as there is an unused spell slot of level X left. This ability is called spontaneous casting. You may want to rule against it at your table, but don't claim it is universally so without anything to back it up.

Actually, in the SRD, only Druids and Clerics get Spontaneous Casting, so I don't see what you mean?

[Little Brother]

Yes, the druid can cast SNA X unprepared as long as there is an unused spell slot of level X left. This ability is called spontaneous casting. You may want to rule against it at your table, but don't claim it is universally so without anything to back it up.Nope. It has to use a prepared slot to cast it. Read the sorcerer's rules. Then get back to me.

Unless you want to claim that Wiz 3 is a spontaneous caster, because it can cast its prepped spells whenever.

(By the way, the name means nothing. It might if it was called "To spontaneously cast spells," but its not.)

[Gwendol]

Your reasoning makes no sense to me. A druid can cast SNA X without preparing the spell ahead of time. Of course he needs an available spell slot to cast it, and so does the sorcerer, bard, duskblade, etc. A cleric can cast healing or wounding spells without preparing them, and other spells too depending on domains, PrC's etc. This means spontaneously casting them (no preparation necessary).

[Larkas]

Your reasoning makes no sense to me. A druid can cast SNA X without preparing the spell ahead of time. Of course he needs an available spell slot to cast it, and so does the sorcerer, bard, duskblade, etc. A cleric can cast healing or wounding spells without preparing them, and other spells too depending on domains, PrC's etc. This means spontaneously casting them (no preparation necessary).

No, it doesn't. You can lose a prepared spell to do that, but can you cast SNA from a slot that has nothing prepared in it? No, you can't. And that is what spontaneous casting means in this particular case.

[Gwendol]

That has nothing to do with it being spontaneous. Likewise you can't re-use a used spell slot. The point being that spontaneous casting of spells means casting without preparing them. Preparation of other spells have no meaning in this case. Consider a wizard/bard. Is he not a spontaneous spellcaster? Yes. But he still need to prepare his wizard spells, which has no bearing to the bard spells he can spontaneously cast.

That the CoD uses a prepared spell slot for his spontaneous spells has no implication.


Versatile Spellcaster
( Races of the Dragon, p. 101)

[General]


You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher.

Prerequisite
Ability to spontaneously cast spells,

Benefit
You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

The pre-req just says "ability to spontaneously cast spells" not "be a spontaneous spell-caster" (if that is even a term?). There you go: will work wonders!

[Larkas]

I'll give it to you, that is a way to read it, even if it's a way I've never seen used. Heck, following that reasoning, even Wizards can cast spontaneously using the right (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spontaneousDispelling ) variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spontaneousSummoning) .

And spontaneous spellcaster is a term (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm), and is something that Clerics and Druids are not, even if they can spontaneously convert spells to SNA, CLW and ILW.

And if someone was to use that understanding, my True Necro build could have an extra level of Wizard in place of the Dread Necro level. ...Yeah, I can see the merits, but I'll keep on saying that Versatile Spellcaster asks for spontaneous spellcasters in my games :smallsmile:

EDIT: Then again, we have this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a):


From PH pg 188: "Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats: A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead. For instance, an 11th-level cleric can swap out a prepared 6th-level spell to cast an empowered cure critical wounds spell. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a 1-action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast."

If you can use metamagic that way, I don't see why you couldn't use Versatile Spellcaster in the same way... :smalleek:

[Snowbluff]

Arcane Heirophant is bloody awesome. The wording in Familiar Companion makes it so anything that applies to a familiar or animal companion now applies to your FC. Draconic Familiar gives you a freaking Dragon, with all the Familiar bonuses.
The Animal companion side of that? Adds HD.
What happens to a Dragon that gets bonus HD?
It gets bigger, badder, and more awesome in every way.

It can get a little murky, but aside from "Just" dual 9ths, there's ways to have your Familiar companion be a higher level caster than you.

My use of Familiar Companion. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239524&highlight=ubermount) The end Result was something like Halfling Druid4/Wiz1/RangerKnight1/ArcHeir10/MysticTheurge the rest. Devoted Tracker, Holy Mount, Theurgic Mount, Theurgic Bond, Draconic Steed, plus the prereq feats.

IIIRC, Familiar Companion is more AnC than Animal Companion. Draconic Familiar wouldn't help.


I'll give it to you, that is a way to read it, even if it's a way I've never seen used. Heck, following that reasoning, even Wizards can cast spontaneously using the right (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spontaneousDispelling ) variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spontaneousSummoning) .

And spontaneous spellcaster is a term (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm), and is something that Clerics and Druids are not, even if they can spontaneously convert spells to SNA, CLW and ILW.

And if someone was to use that understanding, my True Necro build could have an extra level of Wizard in place of the Dread Necro level. ...Yeah, I can see the merits, but I'll keep on saying that Versatile Spellcaster asks for spontaneous spellcasters in my games :smallsmile:

EDIT: Then again, we have this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a):



If you can use metamagic that way, I don't see why you couldn't use Versatile Spellcaster in the same way... :smalleek:

The feat require the ability to spontaneously cast spell, not being a spontaneous caster.

[Larkas]

The feat require the ability to spontaneously cast spell, not being a spontaneous caster.

Yeah, I thought I made it clear that I understood it :smalltongue: I still fear a bit for balancing issues, but it makes sense reading it that way.

[Gwendol]

I always thought it would add versatility to druids or clerics, and haven't thought of sorcerers gaining that much use of the feat, seeing they already cast all their spells spontaneously (and thus are very versatile).

[Seatbelt]

Can someone post just 1 no save, no sr, just die spell for me? I can't think of a single spell that just pwns someone in a standard action. Are there any that don't need a touch attack either?

[Arcanist]

=>Spuddles

Not at all. The underlying foundation of wizard1/full caster 19 with versatile caster is in the nebulously open wording of versatile spell caster.

Lemme explain how your build actually works out:

1.Kobold's (DW or otherwise) are not True Dragons, therefore they cannot take Loredrake or Spellhoarding which are specifically for True Dragons (Which the thread in my signature provides information stating they are not)

2.Dragonspawn (white) is from the Dragonlance setting and provides a +1 Level adjustment.

3. Druid's Spotaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally Spells so yes, they are spontaneous casters, however due to the wording of Versatile Spellcaster it doesn't work for them because Druids and Clerics don't have any spells known. However it is questionable if you can cast the spells on another list by sacrificing spells on another list...

So now your character is pretty much:

kobold druid 5/conjurer 1/AH10/MT3/ Dragonspawn +1

Druid: 18 (9)
Arcane (Wiz): 14 (7)
Arcane (Sor): 1 (1)

Interesting build you have there... :smallamused: a common theme I'm noticing in this thread is that people assume that a Theurge just mixes the spell list and then they can versatile spellcasting the problems away... I mean by that logic I can honestly just play a Wizard/17 Archivist/1 Cleric/1 Bard/1 and call myself god...

This is wasted though since you've given up entirely...

=>Seatbelt

Can someone post just 1 no save, no sr, just die spell for me? I can't think of a single spell that just pwns someone in a standard action. Are there any that don't need a touch attack either?

I can't remember the entire trick but you basically bury the target under like a mile of solid ice but it results in a suffocation kill.

=>Snowbluff

The feat require the ability to spontaneously cast spell, not being a spontaneous caster.

I like this reading of the ability :smallamused: It allows a Wizard to just pick up a Blessed book take 5 level for spontaneous divination and then take 2 levels of Geometer and would you look at that? Now i can cast up to 1,000 spells in my spellbook... and it only takes me a standard action to switch to another book that I'm attuned to :smallamused: Don't you love Schrodinger's Wizard?

[Spuddles]

Arcanist-

Look, let's not bring up kobolds. It's irrelevant to my point. If you don't think loredrake works, then it does not.

Let us look at druid 19/wizard 1 with versatile spell caster. This is not a theurge build- it's basically full druid everything with an expanded spell list. The only pre-req for versatile spellcaster is the ability to spontaneously cast spells. A druid meets this pre-req. Versatile spellcaster lets you trade spell slots for casting a spell you know. Wizards know spells, and the spells they know can be of any level, so long as they make a spellcraft check.

Can you see where this is going? The druid gets access to stuff like overland flight, celerity, and teleport, and other spells where caster level 1 doesn't really matter. Not combat stuff, which is all better on the druid list, mostly, but the game breaking T1 stuff, like Time Stop or Wish.

If you want a decent caster level, druid5/wizard1/arcane heirophant10/mt4 and practiced spellcaster gets you to CL19. I prefer UA conjurer, and with the feat the OP is about, welcome to flavor town.

You can qualify for this trick with straight wizard, of course, as there are several methods of getting wizards spontaneous casting.

[edit]
Forgot that OP feat theurgic specialist requires 3 levels of wizard.

[Tyndmyr]

Nobody has caught onto this because the charop posters don't memorise the contents of every single issue of Dragon.

Meh. I'm aware of it. I've commented on it before The issue is, dragon material is sort of in a grey zone, and stuff like this, that is broken out of the box(try comboing with Ur-priest, etc instead for more confusingly broken stuff) is fairly hard to justify.

I'd only bring it up in extreme TO cases.

[Arcanist]

=>Spuddles

Arcanist-

Look, let's not bring up kobolds. It's irrelevant to my point. If you don't think loredrake works, then it does not.

I don't believe in facts, I know them :smallconfused: If you can disprove it then awesome if not then... well sorry...


Let us look at druid 19/wizard 1 with versatile spell caster. This is not a theurge build- it's basically full druid everything with all the wizard's utility spells. The only pre-req for versatile spellcaster is the ability to spontaneously cast spells. A druid meets this pre-req. Versatile spellcaster lets you trade spell slots for casting a spell you know. Wizards know spells, and the spells they know can be of any level, so long as they make a spellcraft check.

Can you see where this is going? The druid gets access to stuff like overland flight, celerity, and teleport, and other spells where caster level 1 doesn't really matter. Not combat stuff, which is all better on the druid list, mostly, but the game breaking T1 stuff, like Time Stop or Wish.

If you want a decent caster level, druid5/wizard1/arcane heirophant10/mt4 and practiced spellcaster gets you to CL19. I prefer UA conjurer, and with the feat the OP is about, welcome to flavor town.

>Cast both Arcane & Divine


This is not a theurge build- it's basically full druid everything with all the wizard's utility spells.

I'm not even questioning anything about caster level... That was only mentioned so I know what spell level you have access to... :smalltongue:

In all fairness I'm agreeing with you here and I really like this :smallamused:

Archivist/11 UA Conjurer/1 Dragonspawn +1 Mystic Theruge/7 for lulz.

Divine (Arc): 18 (9)
Arcane (Wiz): 8 (5)
Arcane (Sor): 1 (1)
Would you look at that? I can curb stomp you not only with every single Arcane Spell in creation, but every Divine Spell in creation. I not only control magic, I AM MAGIC :smallamused:

I'm liking this build more and more... I mean by your logic this build works right? :smallamused:

[Tyndmyr]

Strictly speaking, spells that you know have to be of levels you can cast. Other classes, like warmage, do not have this limitation, though.

[Little Brother]

I'll give it to you, that is a way to read it, even if it's a way I've never seen used. Heck, following that reasoning, even Wizards can cast spontaneously using the right (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spontaneousDispelling ) variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spontaneousSummoning) .

And spontaneous spellcaster is a term (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm), and is something that Clerics and Druids are not, even if they can spontaneously convert spells to SNA, CLW and ILW.

And if someone was to use that understanding, my True Necro build could have an extra level of Wizard in place of the Dread Necro level. ...Yeah, I can see the merits, but I'll keep on saying that Versatile Spellcaster asks for spontaneous spellcasters in my games :smallsmile:This is correct.

EDIT: Then again, we have this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a):

If you can use metamagic that way, I don't see why you couldn't use Versatile Spellcaster in the same way... :smalleek:I fail to see what this has to do with the above. Changing a Pact of Return for an Maximized Inflict Critical or whatever is still not spontaneously casting a spell, under the game term.

I mean, if we want to call spontaneous casting by its RL meaning, a wizard is a spontaneous caster, because it can cast its prepped spells spontaneously, or without premeditation or external stimulus.

So, a Druid is a spontaneous caster if, and only if, wizards are spontaneous casters, who can spontaneously cast spells.

Pro tip: They can't. Game term. Not dictionary term.

[Spuddles]

Strictly speaking, spells that you know have to be of levels you can cast. Other classes, like warmage, do not have this limitation, though.

I've looked many times, but have never found that restriction for wizards.

[Tyndmyr]

I've looked many times, but have never found that restriction for wizards.

Aright, let's look at how spells become learned. From the srd...


To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.

Obviously, learning maps to "scribed into your spellbook", since it's not preparing or casting, yes? Also, this gets us a hard int requirement. Let's go look at the Arcane Spells section of the SRD for this.

Spells Gained at a New Level

Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.

Note that other means of expanding spells known also exist, but they are...rather GM dependent. Research, for instance, could theoretically duplicate any spell, but in practice, is going to be reliant on gold and DM permissiveness.

You're outright not going to be able to learn anything from banned schools, so even with infinite gold, that particular build(being a conjurer) is never going to be able to cast ALL arcane spells.

There's a massive difference between "on my spell list" and "spell known". If there wasn't, sorcs would operate entirely differently. So, this falls pretty far short of being "every arcane spell ever".

[_flint_]

There is already a "Mystic Theurge" Made specially for necromancy-the True Necromancer, that's why nobody ever uses it in the way you're describing

[Yuki Akuma]

There is already a "Mystic Theurge" Made specially for necromancy-the True Necromancer, that's why nobody ever uses it in the way you're describing

No it isn't.

True Necromancer is awful and horrible and does not belong in any necromancer build ever.

[Arcanist]

No it isn't.

True Necromancer is awful and horrible and does not belong in any necromancer build ever.

I made a somewhat bearable True Necromancer that gives 9/8 casting :smallsmile: The only way it can be better is if you remove True Necromancer :smalltongue:

[Spuddles]

Aright, let's look at how spells become learned. From the srd...


To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.

Obviously, learning maps to "scribed into your spellbook", since it's not preparing or casting, yes? Also, this gets us a hard int requirement. Let's go look at the Arcane Spells section of the SRD for this.

Spells Gained at a New Level

Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.

Note that other means of expanding spells known also exist, but they are...rather GM dependent. Research, for instance, could theoretically duplicate any spell, but in practice, is going to be reliant on gold and DM permissiveness.

You're outright not going to be able to learn anything from banned schools, so even with infinite gold, that particular build(being a conjurer) is never going to be able to cast ALL arcane spells.

There's a massive difference between "on my spell list" and "spell known". If there wasn't, sorcs would operate entirely differently. So, this falls pretty far short of being "every arcane spell ever".

So you concede that a wizard can learn higher levels spells than he can cast, yeah? The only limitation is a helpful DM. But come on, this is charop. That's a legit criticism, of course, but I rarely see it brought up in this sort of context.

I am also no sure if I said all arcane spells, ever. It's basically a way to burn a feat and a level and gain access to some of the best spells arcane casting has to offer. It's a utility thing. I have said this repeatedly. You gain most of te advantages wizards have over casters for a rather negligible cost.

And if you want to get banned schools back, check out Lost Empires of Faerun.

[Larkas]

No it isn't.

True Necromancer is awful and horrible and does not belong in any necromancer build ever.

That hurts, man. I shared a perfectly serviceable True Necro build just a few posts back with double 9s, and it can be even better if you read Clerics as being able to cast spontaneously.:smallyuk:

[Gwendol]

This is correct.
I fail to see what this has to do with the above. Changing a Pact of Return for an Maximized Inflict Critical or whatever is still not spontaneously casting a spell, under the game term.

I mean, if we want to call spontaneous casting by its RL meaning, a wizard is a spontaneous caster, because it can cast its prepped spells spontaneously, or without premeditation or external stimulus.

So, a Druid is a spontaneous caster if, and only if, wizards are spontaneous casters, who can spontaneously cast spells.

Pro tip: They can't. Game term. Not dictionary term.

Pro tip? The feat does not require a spontaneous caster (which CoD are not) only the ability to spontaneously cast spells, which they do. Read the PH page 188, the title says "spontaneous casting and metamagic feats", and what class is brought up as example? Cleric!

If you still want to argue that druids can't spontaneously cast SNA please do, just don't expect anyone to listen.

[Arcanist]

=>Spuddles

So you concede that a wizard can learn higher levels spells than he can cast, yeah? The only limitation is a helpful DM. But come on, this is charop. That's a legit criticism, of course, but I rarely see it brought up in this sort of context.

Awesome so since the DM in the Sky is allowing us to do whatever we want I'm pun-pun :smalltongue: Cmon, good Char-op is when the DM can't say jack to your build besides:

0. Rule 0
1. Disallowing an entire sourcebook.
2. Boot you from the table.

As long as the DM has a say in it then its not very good now is it? Look at circle magic optimization, nothing short of Rule 0, disallowing it entirely, or kicking you out would effectively beat it. Although I will concede that one of the major points in Circle Magic Optimization is using the learning spells feature... So neh :smalltongue:


some of the best spells arcane casting has to offer. It's a utility thing. I have said this repeatedly. You gain most of the advantages wizards have over casters for a rather negligible cost.

That is true with countless infinite gold tricks that the great DM in the Sky will allow you to perform the GP for scribing all those spells into your spellbook will be like throwing a grain of sand into the ocean :smallamused:


And if you want to get banned schools back, check out Lost Empires of Faerun.

Warning: Should only be performed with Chaos feat shuffling.

I enjoy doing this with Red Wizards... Ban anything that isn't Transmutations and Abjurations and you are effectively... well a regular Wizard except better...


=>Larkas

That hurts, man. I shared a perfectly serviceable True Necro build just a few posts back with double 9s, and it can be even better if you read Clerics as being able to cast spontaneously.:smallyuk:

I'd very much like to see this build :smallconfused:

[Little Brother]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Gwendol]

Now you are being rude.

[Little Brother]

Now you are being rude.No, YOU were being rude. I was merely stating facts.

[Larkas]

I'd very much like to see this build :smallconfused:

What won't I do for you guys? :smallyuk:

The original build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13399697&postcount=65) is this:

Dread Necromancer 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 2/True Necromancer 14/Mystic Theurge 1

That level of Dread Necromancer is there merely to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster. If Clerics can indeed qualify for it, then you can get rid of it completely. Then we'll have:

Cleric 1/Wizard 2/Mystic Theurge 2/True Necromancer 14/Mystic Theurge 1

I based this on the early MT entry cheese set up by Caedrus (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3092.msg96437#msg96437). Now, I don't fully subscribe to his views on the following point:


(...) since you can convert 2x 0th level spells into a 1st level spell (again using Versatile Spellcaster), you get the spell slots you need.
But that is not really a problem if you can indeed dump that spontaneous spellcaster level in favor of a Wizard level, since then you'd have two 1st level spell slots anyways. You won't know any, but with Heighten Spell you CAN prepare, and cast, 2nd level arcane and divine spells (as per the FAQ cited by Caedrus).

Anyways, by using this build, you'd have 17th level-equivalent Cleric casting and 18th level-equivalent Wizard casting. Hence, double 9s.

Now, I'm not as rules-savvy as most of you here, but this build seems legit to me. And, to tell you the truth, I'd love to know it really works, since it would salvage a mostly useless (well, at least from an optimization standpoint) theurge class that's full of flavor :smallbiggrin:

[Hiro Protagonest]

No, YOU were being rude. I was merely stating facts.

Saying "Yawn. Rules ain't that complex" IS rude. It shows that you're dismissing him and implying that he's dumb.

Also, I looked up Versatile Spellcaster. "Ability to spontaneously cast spells" (in this case, SNA or Cure) is different from "spontaneous caster" or "ability to spontaneously cast all spells you know". You're the one often citing that RAI and DM adjustment are useless in these debates. Stick to that.

[Little Brother]

Jade, you're missing what I said. It is still not spontaneously casting spells.

[Arcanist]

Let me toss an entirely new argument into the mix.



You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher.
Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast spells.
Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

Since NO class can spontaneously cast 2 spells (plural as in casting multiple spells at the same time) then no class meets the prerequisites at all unless you take twin spell and even then that is very debatable :smalltongue:

[Larkas]

... Ignore everything I said about TN, I only now noticed that levels 6 and 7 don't advance both spellcasting classes :smallmad:

[moritheil]

As the title says. The Mystic Theurge is often cited as a poor class from a pure optimization standpoint, and there are many reasons for this. It is also considered an inferior necromancer to a Cleric or Dread Necro, again, for obvious reasons. However, recently, I have come across an obscure dragon mag feat called Theurgic Specialist, which allows a specialist wizard with a level(s) in another spellcasting class to count the CL of BOTH their classes when calculating the CL for spells of their specialist schools. Thus, a Necromancy Wizard 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 would have a total CL of 30 (17 + 13) meaning they could cast Animate Dead at a CL of 30 pre-epic.

I'm pretty sure I had this conversation with one of my players something like 5 years ago, but the end result was that since most of the DMs in our circle disallow Dragon Magazine feats, there was no practical game in which this can be played. I think CharOp similarly disregards Dragon Magazine for this reason - that most, or at least many, DMs don't allow it.

[moritheil]

Unless you are going to argue that the Ur-Priest can break prereqs if following the garbage build in CompDiv(Because CompDiv said so(Or that mage armor is an Abjuration, because CMage said so? Or anything else like that?), or the like, or a good cleric of Pelor can cast Symbol of Pain(Because the PHB said so), then you have no argument.

Uh, by strict RAW all of those are plausible arguments. Which you acknowledge . . . so I don't understand why you would even bring them up. Are you saying that while they are RAW allowable, they violate basic logical consistency, and so you personally find them garbage arguments?

[Little Brother]

Uh, by strict RAW all of those are plausible arguments. Which you acknowledge . . . so I don't understand why you would even bring them up. Are you saying that while they are RAW allowable, they violate basic logical consistency, and so you personally find them garbage arguments?Because they aren't. The Ur-thingy is a Text v. Table deal, the PHB one is because your character is not Jozan , or whatever., and Mage Armor is not Abjuration because Mage Armor says it is not Abjuration.

Spontaneous Casting is a game term. Druids do not qualify. IIRC, Ala-whatchamacallit Cognition does, Uncanny Forethought does, and Sorcerers/bards are. They can cast with unprepped slots. The Druid cannot.

[moritheil]

Because they aren't. The Ur-thingy is a Text v. Table deal, the PHB one is because your character is not Jozan , or whatever., and Mage Armor is not Abjuration because Mage Armor says it is not Abjuration.

By your application of logic. Which is valid, but not the only possible interpretation of literal RAW (even if it is the most systematic.)


Spontaneous Casting is a game term. Druids do not qualify. IIRC, Ala-whatchamacallit Cognition does, Uncanny Forethought does, and Sorcerers/bards are. They can cast with unprepped slots. The Druid cannot.

I'm not really talking about the specific argument here, but more the general idea of the dividing line between RAW and interpretation of RAW. :smallsmile:

[Little Brother]

I'm sorry, but I do not understand quite what you mean. Can you rephrase?

[eggs]

Spontaneous casting is a game term. It is spelled out in the Rules compendium. It includes Cleric and Druid. How are we still doing this?

[Cor1]

Every Theurge I ever write up uses Versatile Spellcaster, it's a given. For the Cleric side, it's easy to qualify with Spontaneous Domain Casting; it exchanges the Cure spell of the level of the spell you convert for a Domain spell of the same level.

Voilà, fixed-list, spontaneous casting. It qualifies. Done.

/thread

[Gwendol]

Spontaneous casting is a game term. It is spelled out in the Rules compendium. It includes Cleric and Druid. How are we still doing this?

I have no idea. LB has his own definition.

[Seatbelt]

Aw sad. Nobody posted a spell for me that doesn't involve "a trick." Are there really no "no save, no SR, just kill" spells? I know about twinned split repeating maximized lolwut enervations and such. But this thread made it seem like there were some spells that were just so awesome you could win encounters with them all the time. Spells so amazing every wizard takes them - like every druid takes natural spell. I am dissapoint. :(

[Little Brother]

Spontaneous casting is a game term. It is spelled out in the Rules compendium. It includes Cleric and Druid. How are we still doing this?*Facepalm*

You really do have an odd definition of "Spelled out," given that it(If read to include clerics/druids) contradicts everything else on that page, and really includes any class that can cast spells.

Sure, even IF we ignore the terrible wording there(Which could(And probably does)), strictly speaking, exclude druids/clerics, it does conveniently solve the whole "Druids casting as wizards" debate.

[eggs]

If "a cleric of a good-aligned deity can spontaneously cast cure spells" tells you that a cleric can't "spontaneously cast spells," you're probably not going to be convinced of anything. But don't expect anybody else to agree.

EDIT: I'm embarrassed to have been baited into this stupid conversation. I doubt there's even a silent third party that LB risks persuading. I'm not touching this further.

-----------

On-topic, without Reserves of Strength, what cool spells can a Theurge use that lack CL caps?

The first things that come to mind are Divine Power (temp HP and BA), Holy Word line (nasty effects to low HD), Algid Enhancement (temp HP, AC, attack rolls), Owl's Insight (Wis = 1/2 CL), Mental Pinnacle (Manifester level; can be shared with AC/familiar; favors powers known from elsewhere)

[eggs]

I just noticed the similar Psiotheurgist feat in Dragon #349, which stacks caster and manifester levels with a few notable differences:
-Spell schools and psionic disciplines are fuzzy (correlations spoilered)
{table=head]School (Subschool)|Discipline
Conjuration (Healing) |Psychometabolism
Conjuration (Teleportation)|Psychoportation
Conjuration (other)|Metacreativity
Divination|Clairsentience
Enchantment|Telepathy
Evocation|Psychokinesis
Illusion (Shadow)|Metacreativity
Illusion (other)|Telepathy
Transmutation (targeting creatures)|Psychometabolism[/table]

-Requires Spell Focus rather than Wizard specialization
-Can be taken multiple times

It definitely makes Psychic Theurges more interesting.

[Little Brother]

I just noticed the similar Psiotheurgist feat in Dragon #349, which stacks caster and manifester levels with a few notable differences:
-Spell schools and psionic disciplines are fuzzy (correlations spoilered)
{table=head]School (Subschool)|Discipline
Conjuration (Healing) |Psychometabolism
Conjuration (Teleportation)|Psychoportation
Conjuration (other)|Metacreativity
Divination|Clairsentience
Enchantment|Telepathy
Evocation|Psychokinesis
Illusion (Shadow)|Metacreativity
Illusion (other)|Telepathy
Transmutation (targeting creatures)|Psychometabolism[/table]

-Requires Spell Focus rather than Wizard specialization
-Can be taken multiple times

It definitely makes Psychic Theurges more interesting.Huh. That's interesting.

I'll need to get my grubs on that issue, take a look, and put it in the handbook.