Tier of ECL 20 monsters?

[lunar2]

So, i'm looking at the trumpet archon, and i'm wondering what tier it is compared to a class. i'm sure it's somewhere from 2-4, but i don't know where exactly.

so, to break down exactly what you get, here's the stats.

12 outsider HD

casts spells as 14th level cleric with two of the following domains: air, destruction, good, law, or war.

at will SLAs: detect evil, continual flame, message

Trumpet that can be used at will to paralyze all creatures within 100 ft for 1d4 rounds (Fort negates, DC 16 + Cha). trumpet is also a +4 greatsword.

Aura of menace (Su): A righteous aura surrounds archons that fight or get angry. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of an archon must succeed on a Will save to resist its effects. The save DC varies with the type of archon, is Charisma-based, and includes a +2 racial bonus. Those who fail take a –2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the archon that generated the aura. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same archon’s aura for 24 hours.

DR 10/evil

Immune to electricity and petrification

magic circle against evil (Su): A magic circle against evil effect always surrounds an archon (caster level equals the archon’s Hit Dice)

SR 29

Teleport (Su): Archons can use greater teleport at will, as the spell (caster level 14th), except that the creature can transport only itself and up to 50 pounds of objects.

Tongues (Su): All archons can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.

+10 str, +6 Dex, +12 Con, +6 int, +6 Wis, +6 cha.

class skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Knowledge (any), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Rope

+4 racial bonus on saves against poison

[Urpriest]

You can't really assign a tier to something at a specific level. Do you mean the savage progression?

In general it's a Tier 1 since it gets cleric casting, it's just a Tier 1 with less than level-appropriate abilities. Tiers are qualitative, not quantitative.

[Tyndmyr]

You could rate monsters against each other, but they're not really the same as classes. I'd do it as an entirely separate chart.

[lunar2]

ok, since you can't simply assign a direct tier to a monster.

what class is a trumpet archon most equivalent to in power and versatility at ecl 20, and what tier is that class.

[Tyndmyr]

ok, since you can't simply assign a direct tier to a monster.

what class is a trumpet archon most equivalent to in power and versatility at ecl 20, and what tier is that class.

That is....kind of doing the exact same thing. You can't answer that with any useful accuracy. Why would you need this info anyway?

[Randomguy]

At ECL 20, it's stronger than a level 14 Cleric/Rogue (without sneak attack) 6 (for the skill points).

If you want class, not build, then it's pretty close to a level 20 cleric, but with 2 lower levels of casting.

It's also got 3 less BAB, but much higher strength, which makes up for that, so it's unbuffed melee capabilities are basically the same.

Other than that, it amounts to miscellaneous defences, like better saves.


Tier doesn't really work on a level by level basis, but you can compare it to other characters around it's level. Compared to a level 12 or even level 14 character, a lantern archon would be stronger than a cleric in almost every way, making it tier 1.
Compared to level 20 characters, it's not as good in melee as a dedicated fighter or a buffmaster cleric, since it doesn't have turn undead for DMM persist, but since most buffs are lower level spells it can fight well in short bursts. In terms of melee alone, it's basically the same as a cleric, but with -3 to hit in comparison, but +7 damage a hit. (The cleric has 10 lower strength, but also divine power, which the archon can't use).

In terms of casting it's worse in every way than an actual level 20 cleric.

In terms of skillmonkeying it gets a load of skill points, but it's skill bonuses are always going to be 8 less than the rogue's (2 less at the best, for con based skills, thanks to it's higher abilities), and the skill list it gets isn't so great.


I'd call it a high tier 4: It can do a bit of everything, but it can't do anything particularly well.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I actually would peg if at Tier 3,access to 7th level spells (better than a bard which IMO is the quintissential Tier 3 class)similar skills and somewhat decent BAB, which can be fixed by Divine Power but in the end it still looses 8 levels due the LA which makes it significantly weaker. I mean even a normal CL Word of Chaos/Blasphemy will ruin the Archon's day.

[Runestar]

I too would peg it at a solid tier 3, maybe 4 if the DM optimises, in line with a well-built warlock or dragonfire adept. I recall reading about a PBP game consisting of an assortment of ECL20 outsiders (properly outfitted with ECL20 gear). They were trounced by an EL19 encounter (granted, a fairly optimised one), and even had trouble taking on cr14-15 fiends.

Basically, the problems they faced were crap attacks (LA cost them way too much in bab, even with generous ability bonuses), low hp (too few HD), their attacks just generally not being damaging enough relative to the foes they would face at that lv and vulnerability to HD-based effects like blasphemy.

But from ECL1-14, it is a solid tier1, as it actually gets spells faster than a cleric! :smallcool: