[PF] Alchemist Extracts - Targets

[Gorfnod]

Just want to clear up a little debate that I am having with a player. The description for extracts on d20PFSRD.com states
"the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist" I see this as, no matter what the target of a spell is, the extract only affects the alchemist or another drinker in the case of an infusion.

So here comes the debate, he was looking at the spell Shadow Walk which says it affects "you and one touched creature per level". He argues that the extract is still just affecting you and then the magic is passing from you to the others, while I argue that due the statement, "save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist" that it would not spread to touched creatures.

What do you think?

[Psyren]

Well, by RAW infusions only affect the alchemist, so I would say you're right.

However, Shadow Walk can be argued as a special case - the specific text of the spell is that it affects you, but then gives you the power to take people along with you as part of its effect. Compare to a spell like Haste, which targets others directly rather than giving you the power to speed them up yourself.

In other words, even if you modify the target line to say "You," the text of the spell would still say "You can take more than one creature along with you." It's a fine distinction but one that I might let fly.

[Keneth]

You would be right, the quoted sentence essentially means change "Target: x" to "Target: you".

Edit: Swordsaged. Although I would argue that changing the target to "you" effectively means you can take 0 creatures with you.

[Novawurmson]

I think it would spread to touched creatures. How else would alchemist extracts like Ant Haul, Communal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/ant-haul) work?

[Psyren]

I think it would spread to touched creatures. How else would alchemist extracts like Ant Haul, Communal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/ant-haul) work?

Very good point. So it looks like all the multi-target extracts are good to go, RAI-wise.

[Keneth]

I don't think this can be taken as a general rule because the general rule is clearly defined in OP's quote but as always in Pathfinder there are exceptions that have to be adjudicated on a case by case basis because the devs didn't think things through.

[Psyren]

I don't think this can be taken as a general rule because the general rule is clearly defined in OP's quote but as always in Pathfinder there are exceptions that have to be adjudicated on a case by case basis because the devs didn't think things through.

So perhaps it should be "yes, most spells that would otherwise be multi-target are instead Alchemist-only, save the ones that specifically say otherwise." So an extract like Haste would only affect the Alchemist despite being multi-target as a spell - but extracts that specifically call out multiple targets in their text (like Communal Ant Haul) would in fact spread from the alchemist to the rest of the party. (Through his pores, maybe? :smalltongue:)

If we accept this ruling, we would then apply it to Shadow Walk. I would still go with my original interpretation, that you change the "target" line to say "You," but the spell/extract specifically says you can take others along with you.

[stack]

Just more confusion caused by trying to make alchemists 'different from spellcasters but not really'. Really wish they would have went all the way in one direction or another. If extracts actually WERE potions, just free with a short shelf-life, we wouldn't have these questions (the formulae list would have to be tweaked).Oh well.

[Gorfnod]

I'm contemplating some version of extract that you pass around and each additonal target must sip it to take affect. It would require extra move or standard actions but at least then there could be some logical means as to how multi-target spells could be applied by extracts.

[Psyren]

I'm contemplating some version of extract that you pass around and each additonal target must sip it to take affect. It would require extra move or standard actions but at least then there could be some logical means as to how multi-target spells could be applied by extracts.

Couple of problems with this approach:

1) This pretty much makes Shadow Walk unusable in combat, neutering its use as an escape/panic button. This also affects its offensive uses (see below.)

2) Remember that Shadow Walk can be used offensively - unlike Teleport, targets don't have to be willing (though there is a save.) So you can grab someone and attempt to isolate them, or even just abandon them in the PoS, causing a dangerous target to be shunted far away from the group even if they make it back to the point of entry from the material. (And if they don't make it back, you can effectively deal with a pretty dangerous threat, like the Tarrasque.) Or an evil NPC can use it to try and kidnap someone from the party. Adding the "each traveler must drink" clause removes this use as well.

The alternative, making it single-target only, forces the alchemist to split the party over large distances if he uses it - effectively banning it as few players will want to do that. I would just leave it as-is.

[Gorfnod]

So you can grab someone and attempt to isolate them, or even just abandon them in the PoS

A very valid point and a very fun use of the spell. I guess extracts just have to be looked at on a spell by spell basis.

Thanks everyone.