Contingency - There when you need it?

[whibla]

Contingency, and its bigger brothers, what a great spell. I can't see any arcane caster worth his salt not having one cast. But ... is it fool proof? Obviously it's dispellable, doesn't work in an AMF, etc. but what about more mundane means of bypassing it?

The section I'm wondering about reads as follows:

"Focus: A statuette of you ... You must carry the focus for the contingency to work."

So, surely any rogue worth his salt is going to know this too. And, Sleight of Hand merely requires a DC 20 check to remove a small object from someone's possession, and works if you succeed on this check, regardless of whether they notice you doing it or not.

The obvious solution would be to keep the item within an extradimensional space, such as a bag of holding etc. And herein lies my question.

Are you really carrying the item at this point? You're certainly carrying the, for example, bag of holding, but the objects within it? I'd argue not, as how can you be carrying something that resides in another dimension? You're simply carrying the device that 'holds' the portal to that dimension.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter, and, to stem any immediate 'arguments' this is not strictly a RAW question, but an interpretation of them. Thanks...

[Hiro Protagonest]

So every good rogue (as in, not just the ones with ranks in Spellcraft or even Use Magic Device) knows exactly how to counter a certain spell?

Besides, the mage has a mental Alarm on that Bag of Holding. If not a trap of some sort.

[limejuicepowder]

So every good rogue (as in, not just the ones with ranks in Spellcraft or even Use Magic Device) knows exactly how to counter a certain spell?

Besides, the mage has a mental Alarm on that Bag of Holding. If not a trap of some sort.

That doesn't really answer his question of "do items in a bag of holding count as on person for spell effects."

I would say no, they don't. For one thing, doesn't it takes longer to get something out of a bag of holding? Also, like the OP said, the item isn't on your person in the traditional sense, but in an alternate dimension.

[Hiro Protagonest]

That doesn't really answer his question of "do items in a bag of holding count as on person for spell effects."

I would say no, they don't. For one thing, doesn't it takes longer to get something out of a bag of holding? Also, like the OP said, the item isn't on your person in the traditional sense, but in an alternate dimension.

Reading comprehension fail.

Well, in that case, why wouldn't an Alarm be cast on the figurine? Surely such a valuable defense warrants a first level spell slot?

[legomaster00156]

Reading comprehension fail.

Well, in that case, why wouldn't an Alarm be cast on the figurine? Surely such a valuable defense warrants a first level spell slot?
Because Alarm (http://srd.dndonlinegames.com/spellsAtoB.html#alarm) wards a specific 20-foot area, not an object.

[whibla]

Well, in that case, why wouldn't an Alarm be cast on the figurine? Surely such a valuable defense warrants a first level spell slot?

As an aside to the intended point, because Alarm is centered on a point in space, not an object. Thus, it doesn't move with you. I'll conceed the thrust of the question though, but my first point stands. Even if the mage in question notices the theft, the theft has still occurred.

As to whether a rogue without ranks in Spellcraft or UMD would know these things, I think that might depend on how you see skill ranks in relation to their actual effects. Many rogues, from an rp point of view, will, or will have at some point, belonged to an organisation, or will know other rogues. I would think it reasonable to assume that those rogues talk to each other, and exchange useful information. Knowing that a contingency requires a focus is not the same as being able to identify a contingency as it is being cast, and certainly isn't the same as being able to cast it off a scroll yourself. Would that knowledge require a rank in either of those skills? Not really...

[legomaster00156]

Even if the mage in question notices the theft, the theft has still occurred.
Of course, if a Wizard with a high enough level to cast Contingency has trouble dealing with a Rogue, either the Rogue is ridiculously competent and could better spend his time stealing the king's scepter, or the Wizard needs to reconsider his build.

[Kazyan]

Of course, if a Wizard with a high enough level to cast Contingency has trouble dealing with a Rogue, either the Rogue is ridiculously competent and could better spend his time stealing the king's scepter, or the Wizard needs to reconsider his build.

What, at level 9? If the wizard can get a Hold Person off, yes, but the rogue can grab the focus before the wizard knows anything is happening. And no, the wizard does not spot a rogue optimized for stealth.

[legomaster00156]

5th-level spells are capable of stopping a Rogue in his tracks, easily.

[Kazyan]

I do not debate that, but a rogue played as well as Shrodinger's Wizard will steal that focus.

[legomaster00156]

Perhaps, but KEEPING the focus is another matter entirely.

[Kazyan]

Yeah, the rogue is pretty well done for at that point.

(I'd recommend an item of Silence or something.)

[Empedocles]

Could you not set up cumulative contingencies that protect one another? So if one focus is stolen, a contingency activates and turns the rogue into squishy dough. That way, even if the rogue knows about the contingency to the contingency, he'll have to steal that statue first, which likely sets off an alarm system so you can destroy the rogue and still have your original contingency active.

[Jarian]

Could you not set up cumulative contingencies that protect one another? So if one focus is stolen, a contingency activates and turns the rogue into squishy dough. That way, even if the rogue knows about the contingency to the contingency, he'll have to steal that statue first, which likely sets off an alarm system so you can destroy the rogue and still have your original contingency active.

You can only have one Contingency at a time. Unless you're talking about Craft Contingent Spell, in which case you're spending xp.

[Averis Vol]

It's also good to state that the spell doesn't understand sentient thoughts. If you say, teleport as the spell and when i'm attacked as the condition where does attack come to definition in the spells mind? first touch? when bodily harm occurs?. One of my PC's and I had a long argument about the touch and go nature of contingency kind of being like a wish; it won't always get it perfect. so the cleric could be touching to heal you (yes, yes i know a competant wizard wont take damage, just play along.) or to buff, next instant you could be back in your house 300 miles away.

I think the validity of contingency rests with the player and DM. if the player abuses it, the spells understanding gets a bit wonky and little things set it off, like getting bit by a mosquito or pelted with rain, etc.

but this is all a purely homeruled definition. as per the spell....well its 3.5, not everything is perfectly well written. :smallbiggrin:

[Slipperychicken]

The thing about the Focus looks exactly like Spellbook issues, and this Focus would likely be protected in a similar manner to the Spellbook. Not that I know much about spellbook protection beyond "I don't want to deal with this: I'll just take Eidetic Spellcaster."

Maybe the Wizard shoves his Focus into his Hoard Gullet, then has protections against dispelling (ring of spell-battle, CL-boosting), and wears his standard-issue Lead Hat in case of AMFs? When you've dispelled the Wizards buffs, and are up in his square, you might as well have killed him.

[Flickerdart]

So, surely any rogue worth his salt is going to know this too. And, Sleight of Hand merely requires a DC 20 check to remove a small object from someone's possession, and works if you succeed on this check, regardless of whether they notice you doing it or not.
Step 0) Win initiative
Step 1) Get near enough Wizard to attempt Sleight of Hand.
Step 2) Strip-search the Wizard as a free action to find his Contingency focus among all of his belongings
Step 3) Determine which of the 50 identical statuettes is the real Contingency focus
Step 4) Take the statuette
Step 5) The Wizard kills you and takes it back
So at best, this is a suicide charge to deny the Wizard his Contingency for a round, assuming that it does not activate from anything the Rogue does.

[moritheil]

So is this a potential use for that Phantasmal Thief spell?

[Popertop]

What, at level 9? If the wizard can get a Hold Person off, yes, but the rogue can grab the focus before the wizard knows anything is happening. And no, the wizard does not spot a rogue optimized for stealth.

Glitterdust has other plans

[candycorn]

The focus must be a statuette at the time of casting, and it must remain on the wizard's person.

Nothing preventing the wizard from casting contingency, then polymorphing the statue into a sock, and putting it on.

[KillianHawkeye]

The focus must be a statuette at the time of casting, and it must remain on the wizard's person.

Nothing preventing the wizard from casting contingency, then polymorphing the statue into a sock, and putting it on.

And we have a winner.... :smallamused:

[Aharon]

If we're already in Sleight of Hand silliness territory, why isn't the wizard naked? DC 40 isn't that hard to beat, and the standard assumption is unlimited free actions in such scenarios, isn't it?

[Flickerdart]

If we're already in Sleight of Hand silliness territory, why isn't the wizard naked? DC 40 isn't that hard to beat, and the standard assumption is unlimited free actions in such scenarios, isn't it?
Because the wizard dumped CHA, and nobody wants to see that.

[Slipperychicken]

Because the wizard dumped CHA, and nobody wants to see that.

The Rogue could take a 50% miss chance for averting his eyes :smalltongue: Not like he's making attack rolls here.

Maybe the Wizard cast that one spell that gives a Gaze fear-attack that has Duration: Instantaneous, and fluffed it as being the effects of how ugly he is..

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I do not debate that, but a rogue played as well as Shrodinger's Wizard will steal that focus.

Schrodinger. Schrodinger's Cat, ergo Schrodinger's Wizard. With a "CH".

A thought experiment designed to demonstrate the hypothesis of the EPR particle and quantum entanglement, and has been used as an example for the hypothesized many worlds, "multi-verse".

I keep seeing people spell his name wrong, (three times in the last couple days) on gaming forums.

Sorry , it annoys me. :smalltongue:

[Kazyan]

Schrodinger. Schrodinger's Cat, ergo Schrodinger's Wizard. With a "CH".

A thought experiment designed to demonstrate the hypothesis of the EPR particle and quantum entanglement, and has been used as an example for the hypothesized many worlds, "multi-verse".

I keep seeing people spell his name wrong, (three times in the last couple days) on gaming forums.

Sorry , it annoys me. :smalltongue:

As someone who lived in Germany for years, thank you for the verbslap. :smallredface:

[Andezzar]

Actually it is Erwin Schrödinger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger).

[Kazyan]

Step 0) Win initiative
Step 1) Get near enough Wizard to attempt Sleight of Hand.
Step 2) Strip-search the Wizard as a free action to find his Contingency focus among all of his belongings
Step 3) Determine which of the 50 identical statuettes is the real Contingency focus
Step 4) Take the statuette
Step 5) The Wizard kills you and takes it back
So at best, this is a suicide charge to deny the Wizard his Contingency for a round, assuming that it does not activate from anything the Rogue does.

Doesn't sound so infeasible to me. We'll say that if the Wizard can have 73,500gp worth of decoys, then the Rogue can have +39 Sleight of Hand.

Step 1) Be the iconic Dex-based class
Step 2) Yoink
Steps 3-4) SoH every single statue and spell component pouch into your bag indiscriminately
Step 5) Sneak Attack
Step 6) Combat with the commoner who has a high will save
Step 7) ???
Step 8) 50 * 1,500 = 75,000 gp of profit.

[moritheil]

Doesn't sound so infeasible to me. We'll say that if the Wizard can have 73,500gp worth of decoys, then the Rogue can have +39 Sleight of Hand.

Step 1) Be the iconic Dex-based class
Step 2) Yoink
Steps 3-4) SoH every single statue and spell component pouch into your bag indiscriminately
Step 5) Sneak Attack
Step 6) Combat with the commoner who has a high will save
Step 7) ???
Step 8) 50 * 1,500 = 75,000 gp of profit.

I'm pretty sure the teleport line of spells has no need for material components, so if you didn't kill him in one round, he'd probably get away in Step 6.

Still, a very amusing heist idea. :smallbiggrin:

[legomaster00156]

Doesn't sound so infeasible to me. We'll say that if the Wizard can have 73,500gp worth of decoys, then the Rogue can have +39 Sleight of Hand.

Step 1) Be the iconic Dex-based class
Step 2) Yoink
Steps 3-4) SoH every single statue and spell component pouch into your bag indiscriminately
Step 5) Sneak Attack
Step 6) Combat with the commoner who has a high will save
Step 7) ???
Step 8) 50 * 1,500 = 75,000 gp of profit.
Someone explain to me why this Wizard was not pre-buffed with at least Blur.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Actually it is Erwin Schrödinger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger).

Yeah, but I don't know how to make the sideways : thing over letters.

[Kazyan]

Someone explain to me why this Wizard was not pre-buffed with at least Blur.

Because that lasts 9 minutes. He may have been, though. I'm just making the point that it is, in fact, possible for a mere Rogue to inconvenience the almighty Wizard, possibly even--with extreme cheese, mind you--damage them.

[moritheil]

Someone explain to me why this Wizard was not pre-buffed with at least Blur.

As Kazyan said, Blur is improbable. However, if splatbooks are in, the Heart of Air line of spells are all-day buffs which when combined give total fortification. It's pretty hard to see a Wizard who is interested in Contingency not running around with those up in a non-Core setting.

[Kazyan]

Eh, the Wizard has level 5 spells by now, so if he invests spell slots in buffing himself, just remember that There's A Spell For That and find the combination that makes you immune to Rogues.

[Slipperychicken]

Someone explain to me why this Wizard was not pre-buffed with at least Blur.

And you're pretty much boned if he took Eschew Materials. If he had Corpse Candle up (Sorc/Wiz 3, spell compendium), he saw you at 5ft, then rolled initiative.

If he had any extra pouches (or his normal Bag of Holding) melded into his form (via some Polymorph effect or something), or kept it in a Hoard Gullet, you can't grab that.

[Flickerdart]

Doesn't sound so infeasible to me. We'll say that if the Wizard can have 73,500gp worth of decoys, then the Rogue can have +39 Sleight of Hand.

Step 1) Be the iconic Dex-based class
Step 2) Yoink
Steps 3-4) SoH every single statue and spell component pouch into your bag indiscriminately
Step 5) Sneak Attack
Step 6) Combat with the commoner who has a high will save
Step 7) ???
Step 8) 50 * 1,500 = 75,000 gp of profit.
Step 1) Hummingbird + Martial Wizard + Nerveskitter = +13 to Initiative at level 1, good luck matching that
Step 2) You don't know what he has on him and have no way to find out
Step 3-4) Only works for small objects, so a component knapsack defeats you
Step 5) See above re: you lose initiative
Step 6) Because there are no such things as spells that require no material components?

So, in conclusion, even with your preposterous +39 skill check, you still lose every step.

[Jarian]

So, in conclusion, even with your preposterous +39 skill check, you still lose every step.

You give your Schrodinger Winzard a) Dragon Magazine content, b) 74k in decoy focuses, and the Rogue can't get a +39 on a Dex-based skill check?

I'm the last person in the world to argue that a Rogue and Wizard are equal to one another, but come on.

Yes, yes, there's A Spell For That™, and all Wizards have them up at all times, I know. This is the internet, no Wizard can fail at anything. But at least pretend to put the competition on equal footing.

[ryu]

He did. He took your exact specifications, allowed them, then pointed out why the fight hasn't changed. If you have that kind of obscene uberchecking power early on I think we can allow some mostly basic optimization choices rather than gold spamming put forth as silliness to begin with.

[Kazyan]

Step 1) Hummingbird + Martial Wizard + Nerveskitter = +13 to Initiative at level 1, good luck matching that
Step 2) You don't know what he has on him and have no way to find out
Step 3-4) Only works for small objects, so a component knapsack defeats you
Step 5) See above re: you lose initiative
Step 6) Because there are no such things as spells that require no material components?

2) Point taken, as well as the prominent Amulet of Health, Headband of Intellect and Rings of Being Very Shiny. I suppose I can drop this here.

[Jarian]

He did. He took your exact specifications, allowed them, then pointed out why the fight hasn't changed.

Well, firstly, they aren't really my specifications. It's just getting a little old after ten years for everyone to counter with "Nope, Wizard, because X". Even if X is true (and it very nearly always is for Wizards), when you deny access to the same sort of things for the competition in general it's just... silly.

Nobody in their right mind is going to say a Rogue beats a Wizard. Wizards get everything, and everyone knows that. But tweaking your spell component pouch into a backpack? Having 74k worth of contingency focuses just because? Assuming Dragon Magazine content is kosher ever? Come on. Like I said, I don't think anyone assumes the fight is a fair one, but at least pretend it is.


If you have that kind of obscene uberchecking power early on I think we can allow some mostly basic optimization choices rather than gold spamming put forth as silliness to begin with.

It's really not 'uberchecking', if you give the Rogue the same tools as the Wizard has had thrown at him. A +20 competence Sleight of Hand tool is only 40k, about half of what the Wizard spent in fake focuses. The other 19 should be a cakewalk to get, no matter how you look at it.

[moritheil]

So, in conclusion, even with your preposterous +39 skill check, you still lose every step.

Whoa now. Preposterous? It's not that hard to get +40 skill checks.

[Flickerdart]

You give your Schrodinger Winzard a) Dragon Magazine content, b) 74k in decoy focuses, and the Rogue can't get a +39 on a Dex-based skill check?

I'm the last person in the world to argue that a Rogue and Wizard are equal to one another, but come on.

Yes, yes, there's A Spell For That™, and all Wizards have them up at all times, I know. This is the internet, no Wizard can fail at anything. But at least pretend to put the competition on equal footing.
Schrodinger nothing. All of those choices are perfectly standard. They don't even need to be up "at all times" because Nerveskitter is rolled with initiative. The focuses can be either disguised with magic or just be replicas, and unless you want to spend 1 minute Appraising each one, you have no way of knowing fake from real.
Plus, you utterly failed to even propose how you are going to either get a better Initiative result than the Wizard, or your +39 skill check, so that kind of disqualifies your argument from the get-go even if these things helped you win, which they don't.


Whoa now. Preposterous? It's not that hard to get +40 skill checks.
Possibly. For a combat-competent Rogue, at level 9, for infinity skill checks? Unlikely. But saying "it's not that hard" and demonstrating are two different animals entirely.


Well, firstly, they aren't really my specifications. It's just getting a little old after ten years for everyone to counter with "Nope, Wizard, because X". Even if X is true (and it very nearly always is for Wizards), when you deny access to the same sort of things for the competition in general it's just... silly.
You're denied nothing, because you proposed nothing.



Nobody in their right mind is going to say a Rogue beats a Wizard. Wizards get everything, and everyone knows that. But tweaking your spell component pouch into a backpack? Having 74k worth of contingency focuses just because? Assuming Dragon Magazine content is kosher ever? Come on. Like I said, I don't think anyone assumes the fight is a fair one, but at least pretend it is.
Re: component pouches - plenty of spells have no material components, you still lose.
Re: 74k worth of focuses - replicas are cheaper than the genuine article, you still lose.
Re: Dragon content - that's still a +9, which you need 28 Dexterity to match, you still lose.


It's really not 'uberchecking', if you give the Rogue the same tools as the Wizard has had thrown at him. A +20 competence Sleight of Hand tool is only 40k, about half of what the Wizard spent in fake focuses. The other 19 should be a cakewalk to get, no matter how you look at it.
That's 4k above your WBL for this level, you still lose.

[Jarian]

Plus, you utterly failed to even propose how you are going to either get a better Initiative result than the Wizard,

By playing by the same rules, generally. Rogue has Dex, Wizard has Nerveskitter. Both have Improved Initiative. Wizard has a slight advantage, but hardly overwhelming. Alternately, Rogue uses a class skill and beats the Wizard's initiative.

Unless you feel like throwing Dragon content at both of them, in which case the world probably blows up.


or your +39 skill check, so that kind of disqualifies your argument from the get-go even if these things helped you win, which they don't.

Without even trying, um... +12 ranks, +6 Dex, +20 competence tool (half the price of your Wizard freebies), masterwork tool?

Again, nobody is saying that Rogue is superior to a Wizard. It would just be nice if, for once, somebody would concede that a Wizard can manage to have its pockets picked of lint. Yeesh.


That's 4k above your WBL for this level, you still lose.

Your wizard appears to have broken his WBL table in half as part of his godhood, too, then. It's hardly relevant.

+12 ranks, +6 (or more) Dex, Masterwork tool, +2 synergy bonus, +3 skill focus (if you really feel like it, eh), competence for the rest. Again, I'm not even trying. I'm just throwing core stuff at the wall until the numbers work. It's not like it was my thought experiment in the first place.

Also, you seem to be taking things a bit personally here.

[Flickerdart]

By playing by the same rules, generally. Rogue has Dex, Wizard has Nerveskitter. Both have Improved Initiative. Wizard has a slight advantage, but hardly overwhelming. Alternately, Rogue uses a class skill and beats the Wizard's initiative.
Wizard can and will have a decent Dexterity too, because he's SAD and the Rogue isn't.


Without even trying, um... +12 ranks, +6 Dex, +20 competence tool (half the price of your Wizard freebies), masterwork tool?
+20 tool is beyond all of your WBL and is also a custom item. The wizard is getting exactly 0 freebies.

And remember that even if you DO manage to steal all his contingency focus replicas and material components, he can still cast all of his other spells and you still die. So even if you were right, which you're not, you would still be wrong.



Your wizard appears to have broken his WBL table in half as part of his godhood, too, then. It's hardly relevant.
What part of replicas do you not understand?



+12 ranks, +6 (or more) Dex, Masterwork tool, +2 synergy bonus, +3 skill focus (if you really feel like it, eh), competence for the rest. Again, I'm not even trying. I'm just throwing core stuff at the wall until the numbers work. It's not like it was my thought experiment in the first place.
You're still 16 points short, and without a WBL-breaking custom item, you're not making up that gap.

[Jarian]

Wizard can and will have a decent Dexterity too, because he's SAD and the Rogue isn't.

So their initiative is (nearly, slight edge to the Rogue imho) the same, because they both have the same things. I'm pretty sure that was my point.


+20 tool is beyond all of your WBL and is also a custom item. The wizard is getting exactly 0 freebies.

It's a custom item like an amulet of health +5 is a custom item, but okay.


And remember that even if you DO manage to steal all his contingency focus replicas and material components, he can still cast all of his other spells and you still die. So even if you were right, which you're not, you would still be wrong.

Of course he dies. A wizard can blow up the world if he wants to. That's not the point.

What I don't get is why your Wizard hasn't decided he's an Eidetic Spellcaster with Eschew Materials yet.

[Yukitsu]

I usually just make mine larger than normal so he can't take it via sleight of hand at all.

[Flickerdart]

So their initiative is the same, because they both have the same things. I'm pretty sure that was my point.
Your entire plan hitches on winning Initiative consistently.


It's a custom item like an amulet of health +5 is a custom item, but okay.

An Amulet of Health +5 is a custom item.



What I don't get is why your Wizard hasn't decided he's an Eidetic Spellcaster with Eschew Materials yet.
Because he doesn't want to waste feats and class features when a pittance in cash will do?

[moritheil]

Possibly. For a combat-competent Rogue, at level 9, for infinity skill checks? Unlikely. But saying "it's not that hard" and demonstrating are two different animals entirely.

Are we at level 9, now? I went back and read the OP and nowhere is that mentioned.

I feel like you're being combative about a proposition that not everyone is clear on to begin with. My statement was, in general, it's not hard to get a +40 skill check. As such, calling it preposterous, in general, is a very strange thing to do. Obviously if you take things to a level where one cannot afford a +20 skill ring, it becomes something other than a trivial exercise to get that +40. It would be nice, however, for you to acknowledge that you are moving the setting to that level, or qualify that statement with the clarifier "at level 9," rather than start disparaging other peoples' posts right off the bat.

Now, is it doable at level 9? I'm not sure off the top of my head, but if anyone cares to look up Exemplar, the modifier for a high Dex LA+0 race, the cost of the +10 skill ring and a masterwork tool, I'm sure we'll be closer to an answer to that specific question.

Really, though, I find your attitude that other people owe you work to be baffling. We're all here to discuss ideas, right?

[Jarian]

Your entire plan hitches on winning Initiative consistently.

And your defense hitches on not losing consistently. So what? The rogue dies when he fails, and has a 50/50 (or better) chance not to.


An Amulet of Health +5 is a custom item.

Technically yes. You can, however, upgrade according to the MiC rules and have an Amulet of Health +5, just like you can have an X +whatever competence item.

Not that I would expect you to stop picking at minor issues to let the Wizard fail at one thing in his life, mind.


Because he doesn't want to waste feats and class features when a pittance in cash will do?

Okay.

Just a question, why are you taking this so personally? It's not like one Wizard having the possibility of having his pockets picked will suddenly turn the Charop boards upside down and make the Rogue tier 1. If they wanted them for, I don't know, Incantatrix, Wizards would have a +30 Concentration item without anyone blinking an eye. But if the Rogue dares to lay a finger on the Wizard's precious? CUSTOM ITEM LOL.

Meh. Like I said, I don't really have any vested interest in the outcome of this. It would just be nice if someone could admit that a Wizard can lose in one minor aspect of his otherwise godlike existence.

[Flickerdart]

Are we at level 9, now? I went back and read the OP and nowhere is that mentioned.
The resent discussion was about 9th level combatants. Beyond that, the Wizard's power gap grows and the Rogue will never even get near.



I feel like you're being combative about a proposition that not everyone is clear on to begin with.

You're free to feel whatever you like.


My statement was, in general, it's not hard to get a +40 skill check. As such, calling it preposterous, in general, is a very strange thing to do.

I didn't say it was preposterous for you to get +40 to a skill. said, in refrence to the Rogue being discussed, that its +39 was preposterous, which it was.



It would be nice, however, for you to acknowledge that you are moving the setting to that level, or qualify that statement with the clarifier "at level 9," rather than start disparaging other peoples' posts right off the bat.
That was already the context of the discussion.


Really, though, I find your attitude that other people owe you work to be baffling. We're all here to discuss ideas, right?
And I find the attitude of people claiming random numbers without evidence to back them up equally baffling, and yet here we are.



Not that I would expect you to stop picking at minor issues to let the Wizard fail at one thing in his life, mind.

Coming from the person who latched on "omg Dragon content" like that, I'm rather amused.

[Jarian]

Coming from the person who latched on "omg Dragon content" like that, I'm rather amused.

Because the Magic Item Compendium and Dragon Magazine are totally the same thing.

Excuse me, I think my eyes rolled under the couch.

[Flickerdart]

Because the Magic Item Compendium and Dragon Magazine are totally the same thing.

Excuse me, I think my eyes rolled under the couch.
Because printed rules and DM guidelines are totally the same thing.

Whatever, I'm done here. You people can continue patting yourself on the back about a strategy only useful against INT 8 wizards who spend their time practicing thumb-based autoproctology.

[Jarian]

Because printed rules and DM guidelines are totally the same thing.

Whatever, I'm done here. You people can continue patting yourself on the back about a strategy only useful against INT 8 wizards who spend their time practicing thumb-based autoproctology.

Thank you. I'll take the 'win' in the spirit it was given.

Have a cookie for being a good sport. It's funny because you aren't a good sport, get it?

http://blog.lemonpi.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/MilkandCereal-Cookie.jpg

[Arang]

And your defense hitches on not losing consistently. So what? The rogue dies when he fails, and has a 50/50 (or better) chance not to.


So presuming that their initiatives are the exact same and presuming that the Rogue's SoH skill is high enough to always succeed, he has a 50% chance to fail and fight the wizard, and a 50% chance to steal the wizard's stuff and then face only a wizard with all of his non-material components spells. How fair does either of those seem to you?


Technically yes. You can, however, upgrade according to the MiC rules and have an Amulet of Health +5, just like you can have an X +whatever competence item.

Not that I would expect you to stop picking at minor issues to let the Wizard fail at one thing in his life, mind.


The fact that the Rogue now relies upon an item that costs more than his entire WBL to accomplish even one part of his outrageously specific plan doesn't fit any definition of "minor" I know of.



Just a question, why are you taking this so personally? It's not like one Wizard having the possibility of having his pockets picked will suddenly turn the Charop boards upside down and make the Rogue tier 1. If they wanted them for, I don't know, Incantatrix, Wizards would have a +30 Concentration item without anyone blinking an eye. But if the Rogue dares to lay a finger on the Wizard's precious? CUSTOM ITEM LOL.

Meh. Like I said, I don't really have any vested interest in the outcome of this. It would just be nice if someone could admit that a Wizard can lose in one minor aspect of his otherwise godlike existence.

Presumably he would admit that, if any argument made against the Wizard winning in this was even remotely convincing. It's not that the Wizard doesn't have the possibility of having his pockets picked, it's that the (extremly unlikely) pickpocketing would have literally zero effect on the outcome of the fight as a whole. It's like arguing that the Wizard is being insulted in the most base way imaginable just because his casting Locate City on the Rogue would be pointless: it doesn't work no matter how you look at it, and even if it did work it wouldn't change anything.

[Jarian]

So presuming that their initiatives are the exact same and presuming that the Rogue's SoH skill is high enough to always succeed, he has a 50% chance to fail and fight the wizard, and a 50% chance to steal the wizard's stuff and then face only a wizard with all of his non-material components spells. How fair does either of those seem to you?

The Wizard wins by default. He's a Wizard. That's not the point.

Really, our views seem to be almost the same, but not quite. I think a Wizard can do everything the Rogue wants to do in general, six ways to Sunday, and still have enough spell slots left to solo the campaign. The difference just seems to be that I can accept that, under very specific circumstances, a Wizard can be pickpocketed. So what?


The fact that the Rogue now relies upon an item that costs more than his entire WBL to accomplish even one part of his outrageously specific plan doesn't fit any definition of "minor" I know of.

The Rogue UMD's Divine Insight, of, what, +10 or so, prior to enacting his daring plan then. He wears a standard +5 item. Everyone's happy, the Rogue isn't dirt poor. Win win.

It would be nice if people would look beyond the ten-second off-the-cuff examples, especially after they were pointed out as such, and remember how easy skill checks are to make.

[Wavelab]

Alright well a rogue at that level wouldn't be stupid enough to approach a wizard who's fully prepared. The wizard will most likely be fighting monsters. What do you do? You wait until the end of the day when the wizard has exhausted most of his spells and goes to rest.

1) Sneak into camp.
2) If alarm spell or early warning system, defeat exhausted wizard, if not skip to next step.
3) Finish of weak wizard
4) Take items.
5) Not that hard.

Rogue are supposed to be prepared for most things. Yes a wizard is supposed to be prepared too, but the wizard doesn't know about the attack, while the rogue does. The rogue can even weaken the wizard over the day by sending various hirelings at him(They die so he probably won't need to pay them).

Basically even if we have a Schrödinger's Wizard, he still can't fight effectively if he's faced 4 full encounters that day. He might not have expended all his spells, but that's certainly less to worry about.

[Arang]

The Wizard wins by default. He's a Wizard. That's not the point.

Really, our views seem to be almost the same, but not quite. I think a Wizard can do everything the Rogue wants to do in general, six ways to Sunday, and still have enough spell slots left to solo the campaign. The difference just seems to be that I can accept that, under very specific circumstances, a Wizard can be pickpocketed. So what?


So you keep moving the goalposts to ever more specific terms for the Rogue's success. Where's the point for him winning, here? Does he have to get the statuette? Win Initiative? Win the combat? Survive a round?

Let me be clear: those aren't rhetorical questions, I'd really really like to know.


The Rogue UMD's Divine Insight, of, what, +10 or so, prior to enacting his daring plan then. He wears a standard +5 item. Everyone's happy, the Rogue isn't dirt poor. Win win.

It would be nice if people would look beyond the ten-second off-the-cuff examples, especially after they were pointed out as such, and remember how easy skill checks are to make.

Except Divine Insight lasts for one check and we agreed (or at least used to agree, before we didn't) that the Rogue needs to make dozens and dozens of checks instead of one, so he's down to +5 now.

Or he would, except there's no such thing as a standard +5 SoH item.

Was this a ten-second off-the-cuff example? It's hard to look beyond them when it only takes ten seconds to disprove them.

[Jarian]

So you keep moving the goalposts to ever more specific terms for the Rogue's success. Where's the point for him winning, here? Does he have to get the statuette? Win Initiative? Win the combat? Survive a round?

Let me be clear: those aren't rhetorical questions, I'd really really like to know.

It wasn't even my competition in the first place, so I don't know. As far as I can tell, everyone and their mother agrees that the Rogue either 'ports out and throws the foci in Mount Doom, or gets gibbed. Beyond incredibly situational build optimization for surviving Schrodinger's prepared component-less spell barrage, there's very little hope otherwise.

So, I think the Rogue wins by stripping the Wizard. Dunno. He's toast one way or another.


Except Divine Insight lasts for one check and we agreed (or at least used to agree, before we didn't) that the Rogue needs to make dozens and dozens of checks instead of one, so he's down to +5 now.

Or he would, except there's no such thing as a standard +5 SoH item.

Hm. Touché. Well, as enjoyable as it would be to splat-dive for SoH optimization, I think we'll just either have to agree or disagree that skill check optimization is ludicrously easy and the MiC makes it easier. Fair enough?

If not, then I leave it to someone else to come back with +39, since my lunch break is over and I have complete faith in it being fairly simple to pull off. Incoming mockery, go!


Was this a ten-second off-the-cuff example? It's hard to look beyond them when it only takes ten seconds to disprove them.

Given the timestamp on the posts, I think you already know that it was. GitP posters sure are snarky about their Wizards, aren't they?

[Kazyan]

1) Sneak into camp.
2) If alarm spell or early warning system, defeat exhausted wizard, if not skip to next step.
3) Finish of weak wizard
4) Take items.
5) Not that hard.

Something like this actually happened in a gestalt game I played in. Rogue//Assassin against Wizard//Warblade with a Dandwiki artificer prestige class. Alarm went off. Wizard almost got away.

Reason he lived? His only stabilization check at -9 succeeded.

No arguments in this post, just throwing out an anecdote.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Thank you. I'll take the 'win' in the spirit it was given.

Him deciding not to waste time doesn't mean you win. See: Chewbacca Defense (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChewbaccaDefense). It's more "typical Internet argument" than "purposely confusing", and he was smart enough to see it was going nowhere rather than bowing out because his mind was reeling, but the point stands.

Also, I'm confused about who got to -9 in the above post.

[Jarian]

Him deciding not to waste time doesn't mean you win. See: Chewbacca Defense (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChewbaccaDefense). It's more "typical Internet argument" than "purposely confusing", and he was smart enough to see it was going nowhere rather than bowing out because his mind was reeling, but the point stands.

No, no, you misunderstand. I won and that's all that matters. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/facetious)

I don't give two hoots who wins an internet argument with this level of specificity. I think points should stand on their own merits, not be determined by who plays the bigger bully.

[Augmental]

Alright well a rogue at that level wouldn't be stupid enough to approach a wizard who's fully prepared. The wizard will most likely be fighting monsters. What do you do? You wait until the end of the day when the wizard has exhausted most of his spells and goes to rest.

1) Sneak into camp.
2) If alarm spell or early warning system, defeat exhausted wizard, if not skip to next step.
3) Finish of weak wizard
4) Take items.
5) Not that hard.

Rogue are supposed to be prepared for most things. Yes a wizard is supposed to be prepared too, but the wizard doesn't know about the attack, while the rogue does. The rogue can even weaken the wizard over the day by sending various hirelings at him(They die so he probably won't need to pay them).

Basically even if we have a Schrödinger's Wizard, he still can't fight effectively if he's faced 4 full encounters that day. He might not have expended all his spells, but that's certainly less to worry about.

Rope Trick.

[ryu]

Contingency: teleport myself to a safe place several miles away. If I'm asleep I'll probably wake up in the process.

[Kazyan]

Also, I'm confused about who got to -9 in the above post.

Wizard got Sneak Attacked to -9, stabilized, and then the party got involved.

[Arcanist]

=>Vilpich

Could you not set up cumulative contingencies that protect one another? So if one focus is stolen, a contingency activates and turns the rogue into squishy dough. That way, even if the rogue knows about the contingency to the contingency, he'll have to steal that statue first, which likely sets off an alarm system so you can destroy the rogue and still have your original contingency active.

I can imagine a Demilich that is so paranoid all he does is make contingent spells all day everyday for his contingencies... Cmon, I'm sure even Schrodinger's Wizard's can't even accomplish this without going insane :smalltongue: I mean sure you can propose that the Wizard mindraped all of Thay into crafting contingencies for him all day everyday but... That would imply that a Wizard failed his save which everyone knows is impossible... So a Wizard cannot have contingencies for everything because they cannot have contingencies for there contingencies and those contingencies cannot have contingencies and so on till the end of days...

=>Augmental

Alright well a rogue at that level wouldn't be stupid enough to approach a wizard who's fully prepared. The wizard will most likely be fighting monsters. What do you do? You wait until the end of the day when the wizard has exhausted most of his spells and goes to rest.

1) Sneak into camp.
2) If alarm spell or early warning system, defeat exhausted wizard, if not skip to next step.
3) Finish of weak wizard
4) Take items.
5) Not that hard.

Rogue are supposed to be prepared for most things. Yes a wizard is supposed to be prepared too, but the wizard doesn't know about the attack, while the rogue does. The rogue can even weaken the wizard over the day by sending various hirelings at him(They die so he probably won't need to pay them).

Basically even if we have a Schrödinger's Wizard, he still can't fight effectively if he's faced 4 full encounters that day. He might not have expended all his spells, but that's certainly less to worry about.


Rope Trick.

"I can't win so I'm going to leave" ... I'm sorry what? Thats literally like how my 9 y/o sister flips up the chess board everytime she is about to lose :smallconfused:

[Wavelab]

=>Wavelab/Augmental

"I can't win so I'm going to leave" ... I'm sorry what? Thats literally like how my 9 y/o sister flips up the chess board everytime she is about to lose :smallconfused:

It's my turn to say sorry what? I don't know what you're trying to say.

[ryu]

Wait what? You're attempting to outsmart a wizard by not fighting him at his best, but get all high and mighty over him using a basic move from his skill set to trump your plans? It's not even you specifically. Sleeping in rope tricks is simply a good defensive idea.

[Arcanist]

It's my turn to say sorry what? I don't know what you're trying to say.

Not you Wave I was referring to Augmental's comment :smalltongue: Shouldn't have marked you in that reply

[Wavelab]

Rope Trick.

Yes but then the wizard can't take his bag of holding/handy haversack/spell component pouch(If your DM treats it as an extradimensional pouch) with him.

[Arcanist]

Yes but then the wizard can't take his bag of holding/handy haversack/spell component pouch(If your DM treats it as an extradimensional pouch) with him.

Lemme link it before he does... (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a) :smallfrown: I thought of that already ah well...

I'm curious what kind of action it is to snatch the rope into the window as well otherwise a Scroll of Dispel Magic boots the Wizard out of his little hole xD

[ryu]

Is it any kind of big deal due to expensive components or some lack of experience? If so eschew materials. If not you either keep few spells around that require materials, keep non magic pouches around for just such an occasion with the main bulk of cheap, everyday stuff in the same bag of holding you keep your loot in, or if you're really intelligent put an exploding rune on the same bag. I like option three because it harms the thief and wakes everyone up.

[Augmental]

I'm curious what kind of action it is to snatch the rope into the window as well otherwise a Scroll of Dispel Magic boots the Wizard out of his little hole xD

Or the wizard could just pull the rope into the pocket dimension before going to sleep.

[Arcanist]

Or the wizard could just pull the rope into the pocket dimension before going to sleep.

We'll seeing as there is listed action to pull the rope into the pocket dimension its not possible. Meaning I can still dispel the rope thus forcing you of the pocket dimension...

On a sidenote: Wave do you mind linking me to the pbp thread you started a while ago... (Devil's advocate if that gives you any ideas)

[ryu]

You can take actions out of combat quite easily actually. Further dispelling the thing beforehand leaves you with an entire party awake and ready to disarm you and then use your daggers as suppositories. Yes I'm vindictive with thieves trying to murder me and take my stuff. What of it?

[Wavelab]

We'll seeing as there is listed action to pull the rope into the pocket dimension its not possible. Meaning I can still dispel the rope thus forcing you of the pocket dimension...

Well yeah. The point precisely. The rogue will be prepared. A scroll or two of dispel magic. If I was the rogue I would study the wizard's every action before I attacked him. I'd know how to defeat him.

[ryu]

I also like the assumption that there isn't any watch schedule being kept by the party at all. Seriously NO ONE ever takes precautions while camping in a world where random lions can show up out of seemingly nowhere when on a journey and bandits are actually a thing.

[Arcanist]

I also like the assumption that there isn't any watch schedule being kept by the party at all. Seriously NO ONE ever takes precautions while camping in a world where random lions can show up out of seemingly nowhere when on a journey and bandits are actually a thing.

Well duh, because they are always busy guarding the wizard because he just NEEDS his 8 hours :smalltongue:

[Wavelab]

Well duh, because they are always busy guarding the wizard because he just NEEDS his 8 hours :smalltongue:

And they are in a rope trick extra dimensional space. I don't think there are any lions that can dispel that :smalltongue:

[Arcanist]

And they are in a rope trick extra dimensional space. I don't think there are any lions that can dispel that :smalltongue:

Idk they might encounter Awakened Half-Force Dragon Lions Just out of paranoia... :smalltongue:

[Wavelab]

Idk they might encounter Awakened Half-Force Dragon Lions Just out of paranoia... :smalltongue:

Maybe. But seriously. The party will be exhausted and their resources will be depleted. I'm sure the rogue could handle it if they were surprised enough.

[Augmental]

Well yeah. The point precisely. The rogue will be prepared. A scroll or two of dispel magic. If I was the rogue I would study the wizard's every action before I attacked him. I'd know how to defeat him.

The rouge would still have to pass the caster check. Since casting it from a scroll means you'll be casting it at the minimum caster level, that's CL 5 vs the wizard's CL 9 (we are assuming the wizard is level 9, right?). The odds are in the wizard's favor.

[ryu]

Eh rogues lose most of their combat capability without sneak attack damage which is useless once everyone is awake and aware. Heck the fighter could probably kill him. Also standard party is usually five to six. Technically you don't need eight hours of sleep. Just eight hours of rest. Give the wizard first watch and have him tell his familiar to fly overhead while he waits in the rope trick. Rather elaborate, but an effective watch made without breaking spell recovering rest.

[Wavelab]

The rouge would still have to pass the caster check. Since casting it from a scroll means you'll be casting it at the minimum caster level, that's CL 5 vs the wizard's CL 9 (we are assuming the wizard is level 9, right?). The odds are in the wizard's favor.

Even if he doesn't succeed, chances are the wizard will come out to check who it is. And I'm not assuming the wizard has a party with him. If that's the case then the rogue would have a party too, in which case the entire concept becomes moot.

[ryu]

Further in order to do this we assume you're tailing the wizard. As in following him around. You've even mentioned going for days just to study him. That means you have to go unnoticed by him, his familiar, and most probably anything he's fighting because they don't know you aren't together. Just think of all the hide and move silently checks.

[Augmental]

Even if he doesn't succeed, chances are the wizard will come out to check who it is. And I'm not assuming the wizard has a party with him. If that's the case then the rogue would have a party too, in which case the entire concept becomes moot.

From the text of rope trick:

"Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope."

Also:

"The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it."

So if you've pulled the rope in, the rogue can't see where the window is unless he has see invisible, and he still can't see through the window even if he does.

[legomaster00156]

Even if he doesn't succeed, chances are the wizard will come out to check who it is. And I'm not assuming the wizard has a party with him. If that's the case then the rogue would have a party too, in which case the entire concept becomes moot.
In addition to the above-mentioned window, why the heck would any Wizard with a minimum of 15 INT come out of his secure extradimensional space, resources depleted, to try and face somebody who just tried to DISPEL his secure extradimensional space?

[Wavelab]

From the text of rope trick:

"Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope."

Also:

"The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it."

So if you've pulled the rope in, the rogue can't see where the window is unless he has see invisible, and he still can't see through the window even if he does.

1) A rogue will most likely have a way to get see invisibility if he's tailing a wizard.
2) He's watching the wizard, he saw him set up his camp.

Remember that this is a rogue who knows about the wizard's contingency, so we can assume he has a way of figuring these things out and that the wizard is more than just a random target.

Edit:



In addition to the above-mentioned window, why the heck would any Wizard with a minimum of 15 INT come out of his secure extradimensional space, resources depleted, to try and face somebody who just tried to DISPEL his secure extradimensional space?

True, but he will have to come out eventually. And the rogue might not let him even cast Rope Trick next time, he might just attack.

[Arcanist]

The rouge would still have to pass the caster check. Since casting it from a scroll means you'll be casting it at the minimum caster level, that's CL 5 vs the wizard's CL 9 (we are assuming the wizard is level 9, right?). The odds are in the wizard's favor.

Got a Wizard fanboy to admit they can fail... Color me shocked :smalltongue:

When your faced with one of the largest threats in the entire multiverse a mere 750gp is a drop in the bucket (We're assuming we're playing with 9th level WBL and since the Wizard decided to spend it all on focuses for his/her contingencies... Kind of a bad idea... a really bad idea in the long run)

I must say I really did find the idea of performing a x amount of free actions to steal all the Wizard's stuff quiet hilarious :smalltongue:

+12 ranks +5 Dex + 15 custom magic item (22,500gp) + Skill Focus (SoH) +3 +2 Synergy bonus +2 (deaf hands) and now I can literally roll a 1 still succeed in jacking all your stuff :smallamused:

Blur/Displacement has no applications here since no attack roll is being made, There are no rules against using skills on invisible subject, Of course now comes the question of how do I kill the Wizard? Well I've already spent about 23,250gp (15,750gp of my WBL) so I could simply take the skill trick mosquito bite and use the trusty poisoned dagger (Bebilith Venom is a personal favorite, cheap and its effective) Of course this attack would be vulnerable to Blur/Displacement... Ah well... I've had better dreams :smallamused:

And if worst come to worst he performs a skill check through your invisible (yet interactive) window and SoH's the rope out (all of this as a free action, assuming that pulling the rope is even an action) and uses a standard action to dispel magic your rope (This dispel check being +10 due to the item being made at 10th caster level)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well yeah. The point precisely. The rogue will be prepared. A scroll or two of dispel magic. If I was the rogue I would study the wizard's every action before I attacked him. I'd know how to defeat him.
So... Schrodinger's Wizard isn't legit, but Schrodinger's Rogue is? Because an Alarm and a Rope Trick are rather simple precautions at this level.

Also, I assume there isn't an action for pulling the rope into the space because it's pulling up a rope. There's already an action for it.

Maybe. But seriously. The party will be exhausted and their resources will be depleted. I'm sure the rogue could handle it if they were surprised enough.

So... one surprise round could down a warblade whose only weakness is not being in a stance, because the cleric healed him with any leftover spell slots before bed? Seriously, he's not fatigued, he's not out of maneuvers, and his hit points are full. And then there's the cleric, whose DMM Persisted Divine Power lasts until the morning. And the party's rogue. And this is all after the rogue found the extradimensional space without tripping the Alarm, knew there was an Alarm, successfully Dispelled both spells, and got up into the extradimensional space. All to steal the focus to prevent the wizard from using Contingency.

[Jarian]

Schrodinger's Rogue vs. Schrodinger's Wizard. One has the perfect spells for all occasions. The other, the perfect magical item. Who. Will. WIN?

Hint: It's the Wizard.

[legomaster00156]

Ok, so let's go over the rules we're assuming. 9th-level Wizard vs. 9th-level Rogue. The Wizard is a played by a reasonably intelligent player, but the Rogue is being built specifically to steal and keep that focus. We're using 9th-level PC WBL for both of them. The Wizard is not yet aware someone is out for his focus. Now, here's the thing... what, exactly, IS the Wizard's Contingency?

[Wavelab]

So... Schrodinger's Wizard isn't legit, but Schrodinger's Rogue is? Because an Alarm and a Rope Trick are rather simple precautions at this level.

Also, I assume there isn't an action for pulling the rope into the space because it's pulling up a rope. There's already an action for it.


I assume this because the rogue is actively following the wizard and preparing for it. If the rogue and wizard just met randomly then yes contingency would be different, but we're trying to pickpocket a focus from a wizard, so we can assume the rogue will prepare for it.

The wizard can also take all the necessary precautions to fight the rogue if we assume that the wizard knows about the rogue. Hence why's he's using alarm and rope trick.



So... one surprise round could down a warblade whose only weakness is not being in a stance, because the cleric healed him with any leftover spell slots before bed? Seriously, he's not fatigued, he's not out of maneuvers, and his hit points are full. And then there's the cleric, whose DMM Persisted Divine Power lasts until the morning. And the party's rogue. And this is all after the rogue found the extradimensional space without tripping the Alarm, knew there was an Alarm, successfully Dispelled both spells, and got up into the extradimensional space. All to steal the focus to prevent the wizard from using Contingency.

This a wizard vs. rogue challenge, so I take back all I said about a party. This is supposed to be solo vs. solo. The wizard has expended most of his spells by that time, so he will be severely weakened.

[Jarian]

Now, here's the thing... what, exactly, IS the Wizard's Contingency?

That depends, how high is the Wizard allowed to buff his caster level?

[Wavelab]

Edit:
Scrap that. Saw the post again.

Ok so the rogue's strategy would be to wait for the wizard to be weakened and then attack him at night BEFORE he gets to cast rope trick and alarm.

Or;

After he is asleep.

[ryu]

Why on earth would a fairly low level wizard even be out on his own? Find the local tavern and so some adventurers. This is dnd. Low level adventurers are naturally drawn to taverns. Seriously it's like gravity.

[Arcanist]

Schrodinger's Rogue vs. Schrodinger's Wizard. One has the perfect spells for all occasions. The other, the perfect magical item. Who. Will. WIN?

Hint: It's the Wizard.

Honestly? At this point I'm not even taking this thread seriously I was gonna make it a little bit more obvious by saying the Rogue SoH steals the Wizard's brain but I just KNOW someone will take me seriously and e-thug a way for the Wizard to be immune to it :smalltongue:


Ok, so let's go over the rules we're assuming. 9th-level Wizard vs. 9th-level Rogue. The Wizard is a played by a reasonably intelligent player, but the Rogue is being built specifically to steal and keep that focus. We're using 9th-level PC WBL for both of them. The Wizard is not yet aware someone is out for his focus. Now, here's the thing... what, exactly, IS the Wizard's Contingency?

Well the Wizard has contingencies for there contingencies being stolen and those contingencies have contingencies and so on and so forth :smalltongue:

[Jarian]

Why on earth would a fairly low level wizard even be out on his own? Find the local tavern and so some adventurers. This is dnd. Low level adventurers are naturally drawn to taverns. Seriously it's like gravity.

Because if you bring reason into a challenge, a very large number of the Wizard's invulnerability tricks go out the window. The obvious stuff like Rope Trick, etc, still work, but you can't bring table manners into a straight up contest for the focus without establishing a very long list of table rules that are fair to both the Wizard and the Rogue. In short, bad idea.


Well the Wizard has contingencies for there contingencies being stolen and those contingencies have contingencies and so on and so forth :smalltongue:

Not unless he's burning xp like a madman on the Craft Contingent Spell feat. You can only have one active Contingency spell, full stop.

[ryu]

You do know this is the internet right? People have said crazier things seriously. No nothing is obviously a joke when I've seen discussions of a commoner built to defeat a cat at level one. It's just not possible.

[Wavelab]

Why on earth would a fairly low level wizard even be out on his own? Find the local tavern and so some adventurers. This is dnd. Low level adventurers are naturally drawn to taverns. Seriously it's like gravity.

No. Just no. If this is allowed then it becomes Wizard, Rogue, Fighter and Cleric vs. Rogue, Wizard, Fighter and Cleric.

The idea is that it's a one vs. one challenge.

[Arcanist]

Not unless he's burning xp like a madman on the Craft Contingent Spell feat. You can only have one active Contingency spell, full stop.

Nah, the Wizard is evil so he just uses souls for all his magical items so he never spends any XP for anything ever :smalltongue:

[Wavelab]

Nah, the Wizard is evil so he just uses souls for all his magical items so he never spends any XP for anything ever :smalltongue:

No matter what you say this can be considered a viable argument.

[ryu]

Hey now every wizard needs a few good humanoid shields. Why do you think they ever group with people to begin with.

[Jarian]

Nah, the Wizard is evil so he just uses souls for all his magical items so he never spends any XP for anything ever :smalltongue:

Well, that doesn't work either in this case, because the Wizard in question can't meet the caster level required to take the Craft Contingent Spell feat. So, one Contingency.

[Wavelab]

Hey now every wizard needs a few good humanoid shields. Why do you think they ever group with people to begin with.

If the wizard is allowed party members then the rogue is automatically entitled to his own party members.

[ryu]

and suddenly the wizard is a dragonwrought kobold and qualifies for epic feats.:smallbiggrin:

Both have a party? Fine. Good luck hiding five people on the move from a party with multiple casters.

[Augmental]

No matter what you say this can be considered a viable argument.

Really, now? In that case, the wizard uses souls to make every magic item ever.

[Jarian]

http://cdn.head-fi.org/7/76/76d31508_c851d40e_Derail_1.jpeg

Come on guys. Apply a drop of common sense to the Wizard's abilities for the sake of the poor Rogue. Give him a chance and don't exploit the rules harder than "I'm playing a Wizard". Every knows you can cast 9th level spells at 1st level if you really want to. Doing that ruins the entire point of the competition though.

You're already a Wizard. Just play by the same rules as the Rogue and win fairly.

[Wavelab]

Really, now? In that case, the wizard uses souls to make every magic item ever.

I know this is sarcasm but that still wouldn't work. Caster level requirements and lack of enough dead people with high enough HD come to mind.


and suddenly the wizard is a dragonwrought kobold and qualifies for epic feats.

Both have a party? Fine. Good luck hiding five people on the move from a party with multiple casters.

Dragonwrought kobold is open to DM interpretation. Let's assume they are both humans for this excercise.

And would you mind if instead of a full party we gave both of them two level 5 fighters as hirelings?

[Arcanist]

=>Augmental

Really, now? In that case, the wizard uses souls to make every magic item ever.

A-HA! so that is how Wizards are so invincible! :smalltongue:

Now getting seriously :smallamused:
=>Ryu

and suddenly the wizard is a dragonwrought kobold and qualifies for epic feats.:smallbiggrin:

See my signature, No they don't :smalltongue: (unless your DM says otherwise)
=>Jarian

Well, that doesn't work either in this case, because the Wizard in question can't meet the caster level required to take the Craft Contingent Spell feat. So, one Contingency.

This is true and yes, the Wizard can only have up one Contingency at level 9 :smalltongue:


http://cdn.head-fi.org/7/76/76d31508_c851d40e_Derail_1.jpeg

Come on guys. Apply a drop of common sense to the Wizard's abilities for the sake of the poor Rogue. Give him a chance and don't exploit the rules harder than "I'm playing a Wizard". Every knows you can cast 9th level spells at 1st level if you really want to. Doing that ruins the entire point of the competition though.

You're already a Wizard. Just play by the same rules as the Rogue and win fairly.

PFFT! Fair is for losers :smalltongue:

[Augmental]

And would you mind if instead of a full party we gave both of them two level 5 fighters as hirelings?

Sure. What are the builds going to be?

[legomaster00156]

Let's assume they are both humans for this excercise.

And would you mind if instead of a full party we gave both of them two level 5 fighters as hirelings?
This seems reasonable.

* Level 9 Human Wizard vs. Level 9 Human Rogue
* 2 level 5 Human Fighter hirelings each
* Wizard and Rogue have 9th-level PC WBL
* Hirelings have 5th-level NPC WBL
* Contingency in place is _____ (must decide; make it relevant)
* Wizard is unaware that someone is out for his focus, but at the same time is reasonably intelligent.
* Rogue is specifically built to steal and keep the focus.
* No obvious cheese, such as the likes of Pun-Pun, infinite loops, etc.

[Wavelab]

Edit:
Once again scrap that. Legomaster has it covered.

[Jarian]

* Contingency in place is _____ (must decide; make it relevant)

You have to determine the highest point the Wizard is allowed to boost his Caster Level to first, as that determines the Contingency spells available.

[SimonMoon6]

"Focus: A statuette of you ... You must carry the focus for the contingency to work."

So, surely any rogue worth his salt is going to know this too. And, Sleight of Hand merely requires a DC 20 check to remove a small object from someone's possession, and works if you succeed on this check, regardless of whether they notice you doing it or not.

The obvious solution would be to keep the item within an extradimensional space, such as a bag of holding etc.

I would think the easier solution would be a first level spell (Magic Mouth) cast on the statuette to scream its head off if it's about to be stolen.

[legomaster00156]

You have to determine the highest point the Wizard is allowed to boost his Caster Level to first, as that determines the Contingency spells available.
Let's say that the highest level he can possibly boost his CL to in this exercise is 12.

[Wavelab]

Edit:
Legomaster is a certified ninja. :smallbiggrin:

[Arcanist]

Let's say that the highest level he can possibly boost his CL to in this exercise is 12.

Well now we've created limits for the Wizard. What limits are we imposing upon the Rogue? :smallconfused: limiting how high of a Skill check he/she can make? how many skill checks that can be made per round?

[legomaster00156]

Well now we've created limits for the Wizard. What limits are we imposing upon the Rogue? :smallconfused: limiting how high of a Skill check he/she can make? how many skill checks that can be made per round?
The Sleight of Hand rules are... well, there aren't any. Let's turn that free-action search-and-steal into a minor action. Seeing as he's building himself specifically to steal the focus, assume he's pumping his stealth and thievery skills as high as he can, without limiting himself too much in parts that will help him keep the focus.

Oh, and for purposes of this exercise, the Rogue "wins" if he keeps the focus for 24 hours.

[ryu]

To whichever of you tried to point out the true dragon thread: That was over whether or not dragonwrought kobolds are TRUE dragons. Dragonwrought kobolds are definitively at least normal dragons.

[Wavelab]

Well Dispel Magic is basically non negotiable. This question is whether we spend 11 250 gp on a wand or just get a scroll for 375 g?

Edit:

To whichever of you tried to point out the true dragon thread: That was over whether or not dragonwrought kobolds are TRUE dragons. Dragonwrought kobolds are definitively at least normal dragons.

Yes but they can't get epic feats unless they're true dragons.

[Acanous]

Really, this exercize depends on who is playing what.
I mean, if the PC is the Wizard, and the DM is using the Rogue to get rid of the contingeancy so that the next fight will put the wizard at serious risk, then the rogue can win; either by stealing the focus, by causing the contingeancy to go off, or by somehow disabling the wizard (Unlikely but possible)

Further, if the Rogue is a baddie, he won't have encounters to deal with. The rogue could be a shadowdancer or assassin as well, giving him some very nice abilities.
The Wizard, if he's pooched the DM to this point, is likely a human Wiz3/Master Specialist3/Incantatrix3, who has gone off on his own without the party because he can, to win the adventure for more XP.

Let's say the DM is fed up and wants to give the Wizard a reason to stick with his party. Thus the Rogue/Shadowdancer or Rogue/assassin (You may pick either as your rogue, as a DM would. As an NPC, that rogue is generated JUST for the Wizard.)

As the Wizard is a Player, let us assume his feats are static. He's got:
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Augment Summoning
Cloudy Conjuration
Silent Spell
Extend Spell
Improved Initiative
Persist Spell

The imediate problems I can see:
This wizard is Invisible and Flying all day long. All night, too. Even while he sleeps in an extradimensional space.
He's got the Heart of X combos up, which make him immune to SA among a suite of other abilities.
The Wizard is a Wizard.

Let us assume that the reason the DM needs to get rid of this wizard's contingeancy is Campaign relevant. IE, if the Wizard keeps the Contingeancy 'till the end of the week, when he encounters the Big Bad, it's game over, user wins. The Contingeancy could be "When I come into contact with the Disguised McGuffin, Teleport me and it back to the King's audience hall". That way the Wizard could just be invisibly rifling through the BBEG's stuff every day 'till he gets lucky.

Now, as this is a Wizard who is invisible, flying, and at the center of a Silence spell all day every day, he has zero encounters to deal with on average.
On the off occasion where there's an enemy with See invisible or Invisibility Purge going on, he's still flying and immune to a boatload of effects/etc. and can probably end the encounter with a single spell.
Therefore, this Rogue is fighting the wizard with a bunch of his all-day buffs up, and aside from that, no real spell expendature. (But he doesn't have a whole lot of spells left, anyhow)

He's got Rapid Summoning and Abrupt Jaunt. Just the kind of Wizard a DM can't stand to deal with. For simplicity's sake, let's say he's banned Necromancy and Enchantment.

OK! So aside from Gear, and a smattering of spells prepared, the wizard is done. How would the rogue go about countering this?

[ryu]

Yes but they can't get epic feats unless they're true dragons.

Not quite. Epic feats were only related to being dragons of a minimum age category. It never once mentioned a true dragon requirement. The only mechanical benefit of true dragon stature is access to certain templates and classes. Granted no small deal, but the epic feats were a different matter. Incidentally what I just mentioned came from one of the people on the not true dragons side.

[Arcanist]

The Sleight of Hand rules are... well, there aren't any. Let's turn that free-action search-and-steal into a minor action. Seeing as he's building himself specifically to steal the focus, assume he's pumping his stealth and thievery skills as high as he can, without limiting himself too much in parts that will help him keep the focus.

Oh, and for purposes of this exercise, the Rogue "wins" if he keeps the focus for 24 hours.

Quite right, But these limitations are not enough... Limit the search and steal to anything less then a standard action and this is child's play :smallamused:

Simply enough I can accomplish this entire theft with 3 actions... I recommend you limit magical items as well otherwise I can simply a perform a free action using my Panic button (Escaping) in reverse to approach the Wizard, perform a free action to pick the focus, a move action to place it into my bag of holding, and then using my scroll of greater plane shift to leave the entire plane all together, I recommend going to the Outlands (approximately 600 miles from the spire) thus preventing access to any scrying spells he might know, He cannot locate object the Focus as it is in the Astral plane and he cannot locate my bag of holding due to lack of familiarity


+12 ranks +5 Dex + 15 custom magic item (22,500gp) + Skill Focus (SoH) +3 +2 Synergy bonus +2 (deaf hands) and now I can literally roll a 1 still succeed in jacking all your stuff :smallamused:

All of this costing 36,750gp (and a 2nd Scroll of greater plane shift, and a field provisions kit which I can use on my expedition away from the Spire so I can greater plane shift back to the wizard and return his focus :smallamused:)

The 2nd scroll can and should be abandoned as it is the only unnecessary item and is simply my own ego at work :smallamused:

EDIT:
Of course this plan falls apart at step 0, Winning Initiative :smalltongue: and easily circumvented problem with better finances of course... and then there is taking Merchant Prince into account :smalltongue: this entire set up assumes that the Rogue takes no prestige classes and goes straight Rogue

[Augmental]

Stuff

Who said anything about a DM?

[Wavelab]

Who said anything about a DM?

That was merely a theory of how this situation would arise. He is entitled to his opinion.

[Invader]

If your argument is that a wizard is walking around with 75 replica statuettes at what point does that get kind of cumbersome.

Lets assume that a statuette is 3 inches tall and only weighs 4 ounces (which is light in my opinion). No wizard is going to be walking around with a 20lb. bag of figurines tied to his waist just for contingency so the whole argument is nonsense to begin with.

[ryu]

Bag of holding give not one care for weight. Why do you think they're so popular? Why do you think adventures can carry hundreds of pounds of treasure to sell for money to buy various magic things?

[Arcanist]

Bag of holding give not one care for weight. Why do you think they're so popular? Why do you think adventures can carry hundreds of pounds of treasure to sell for money to buy various magic things?

I KNOW RIGHT!? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding) BAGS OF HOLDING HAVE NO WEIGHT LIMIT!

[Invader]

Bag of holding give not one care for weight. Why do you think they're so popular? Why do you think adventures can carry hundreds of pounds of treasure to sell for money to buy various magic things?

I thought the whole reason for the having all the replicas was that the consensus is that if your statuette is an extra dimensional space then it's not being carried by you and the spell wouldn't work.

If it works from inside a BoH just put it inside a portable hole and the entire debate is finished.

[Arcanist]

WELL I CERTAINLY HAVE EGG ON MY FACE :smalltongue: a 9th level Wizard can't even create 1 contingency :smalltongue:

[ryu]

And buying more than one bag of holding is physically impossible right? I was merely responding to the claim that the replicas would weigh the wizard down. They don't. They have no reason to. If you're going beyond a few hundred pounds just buy a second or third bag. Simple.

[Invader]

But again, a bag of holding doesn't work in this situation to begin with.

[Arcanist]

And buying more than one bag of holding is physically impossible right? I was merely responding to the claim that the replicas would weigh the wizard down. They don't. They have no reason to. If you're going beyond a few hundred pounds just buy a second or third bag. Simple.

Focus
A statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work.

As the Focus is in the Astral plane it is not considered on your person (Unless you want to argue that all Wizard's have the Astral plane in there back pocket)

[Wavelab]

Focus
A statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work.

As the Focus is in the Astral plane it is not considered on your person (Unless you want to argue that all Wizard's have the Astral plane in there back pocket)

And it requires a move action to retrieve something from the bag of holding. :smallbiggrin:

[Arcanist]

And it requires a move action to retrieve something from the bag of holding. :smallbiggrin:

But your contingency is supposed to go off before hand... Meaning you have to be able to predict when your contingency is supposed to go off, before it happens...

[ryu]

Can you fit a bag of holding inside the flowing pockets of a robe? Guess you really can have the astral plane in your pocket in the strictest sense. Well a piece of it at any rate. :smallamused:

[Invader]

And it requires a move action to retrieve something from the bag of holding. :smallbiggrin:

Or very easily a full round action :smalltongue:

[Arcanist]

Can you fit a bag of holding inside the flowing pockets of a robe? Guess you really can have the astral plane in your pocket in the strictest sense. Well a piece of it at any rate. :smallamused:

Yeah and then you explode into the Astral plane because you put an extradimensional pocket into another :smalltongue:

[ryu]

Now who said the pockets of a robe were extradimensional? I didn't. You have to admit though that this is a good example of how awesomely silly dnd is. This is why I play the game.

[Arcanist]

Now who said the pockets of a robe were extradimensional? I didn't. You have to admit though that this is a good example of how awesomely silly dnd is. This is why I play the game.

If its a none magical robe, then it won't fit :smallconfused:

[Invader]

If its a none magical robe, then it won't fit :smallconfused:

This^

The smallest BoH still weighs 15 lbs. Unless your robe is made by Jnco I'm not sure how anything that big would fit in a pocket.

[Little Brother]

Quick question: What kind of level 6+ Wizard DOESN'T have Mindsight 100ft? It's almost like a Druid not having Natural Spell...

And that pretty much makes the rogue cry in a corner.

[Jarian]

Quick question: What kind of level 6+ Wizard DOESN'T have Mindsight 100ft?

The kind that didn't take a level in Mindbender.


It's almost like a Druid not having Natural Spell...

And here we go again...

*grabs popcorn and waits for ensuing LB-style 'debate'*

[Arcanist]

*grabs popcorn and waits for ensuing LB-style 'debate'*

OOO pass me some *nom nom nom* :smalltongue:

Anywho! Since we're allowed to build whatever BS we'd like I'm going to need sometime to think over the tactics for the Rogue to make Mindsight irrelevant :smalltongue:

Ah if only I can use Artificer instead of Rogue... Ah well :smallamused: a man can dream eh?

[Little Brother]

The kind that didn't take a level in Mindbender.What kind of wizard doesn't take a level

And here we go again...

*grabs popcorn and waits for ensuing LB-style 'debate'*:smallconfused:

Arcanist: I really cannot think of any way to ignore Mindsight. It's strictly natural, so it can see into AMFs, Darkstalker doesn't help, and I got nothing else.

[Acanous]

Mind Blank ignores Mindsight.

[Jarian]

What kind of wizard doesn't take a level

Nuh-uh. We've done this before. I know how these things end with you. I have yet to see a thread with your posts where people don't end up flinging insults back and forth like it's a water-balloon fight. Not on your life.

Edit @ above: That's actually fairly contested. While it's certainly reasonable, by memory I don't believe the exact wording works that way, and it's certainly not a 9th level option by default.

[Hirax]

5 pages and nobody mentioned hoard gullet (Dragon Magic spell)? Pickpocket that. :smallbiggrin:

[Arcanist]

I really cannot think of any way to ignore Mindsight. It's strictly natural, so it can see into AMFs, Darkstalker doesn't help, and I got nothing else.

Who the hell says I have to walk into your square? What is to say that I can't just teleport into your square? I mean honestly my tactic still remains the same I just need more Panic button [Escape] :smalltongue: (Dropping an item is a free action)


That's actually fairly contested. While it's certainly reasonable, by memory I don't believe the exact wording works that way, and it's certainly not a 9th level option by default.

Contingency isn't even an option for a 9th level character... Its a 6th level spell :smalltongue:


5 pages and nobody mentioned hoard gullet (Dragon Magic spell)? Pickpocket that. :smallbiggrin:

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED! :smallamused:

[Little Brother]

{{scrubbed}}

[Jarian]

5 pages and nobody mentioned hoard gullet (Dragon Magic spell)? Pickpocket that. :smallbiggrin:

I think it could be reasonably argued that you aren't carrying something if it's in an extradimensional space, though.

If the general consensus is 'yes you are', then the Rogue is well and truly screwed here.

[Hirax]

I think it could be reasonably argued that you aren't carrying something if it's in an extradimensional space, though.

Forgot to add blue text, sorry. It was meant as a joke for the visual.

[olentu]

Mind Blank ignores Mindsight.

I would disagree.

[Little Brother]

I would disagree.Then you'd be wrong.

[Jarian]

Then you'd be wrong.

So... now you think Mind Blank works against Mindsight? Wha?

[Acanous]

Pretty sure it leaves little room for debate in 3.x, and it's explicitly spelled out to counter it in Pathfinder.
The part that matters is where it says it blocks "Any attempts to glean information about" the target's mind. Including Miracle or wish, if used in such a manner.
(One of the very few examples where a lower level spell can counter a higher one)

Pretty sure if it trumps wish, it trumps your one level dip ability.

In 3.5, the only argument you can make is that "where you are" is not gleaning information about your mind. In Pathfinder it says "Oh yes it is" right there in the spell.

All the same, you could affoard a casting of Mind Blank. You couldn't affoard a ring of it, but you could definately have a scroll. It lasts a full day. Mind Blank is an option for the rogue (Albeit an expensive one) as much as Mind Sight is for the wizard.

Also, the rogue, if he's stalking the wizard for a few days, is going to notice that the fellow can see monsters coming from 100 feet away with his eyes closed.

Again, it's very dependant on scenerio. By class options alone, the rogue can never beat the wizard unless they both start within 5' of one another, the Wizard has no buffs, and he has no foreknowledge of the rogue.

Rogues do not survive on class abilties, they survive by manipulation- picking the right tool for the job, and attacking their enemies first and at a time and place of their choosing.

Without a scenerio, you aren't even going to have an argument. Contingeancy works unless something stops it from working. The means to do this are by dispelling, AMF, early-trigger of it's conditions, removing the focus, or ensuring that the conditions are never met.
Removing the focus is so difficult, you're better off taking one of the other options in most cases, unless there is an opportune moment to do so.
That's pretty much all that can be said.

[Little Brother]

Oh, DERP. Misread it. Sorry 'bout that.

This whole English language thing. I hates it, my preciouses...

[Hirax]

Since I've broken my silence I may as well ask, is it being assumed the the rogue doesn't need to see or know where the focus is to steal it? That's the only thing I've been having trouble following. Also, for what it's worth, I agree by RAW mind blank does not make you invisible to mindsight, though it's a houserule that I think everyone should use in real games.

[Jarian]

Without a scenerio, you aren't even going to have an argument. Contingeancy works unless something stops it from working. The means to do this are by dispelling, AMF, early-trigger of it's conditions, removing the focus, or ensuring that the conditions are never met.
Removing the focus is so difficult, you're better off taking one of the other options in most cases, unless there is an opportune moment to do so.
That's pretty much all that can be said.

A page or so back, a scenario was beginning to be set up. The Rogue is still pretty screwed depending on the wording of the Contingency though, and depending how lawyerly you can reasonably word it to include as many loopholes as possible for the Wizard's benefit.

Personally, I liked the Rogue's odds better when it was just a straight up snatch-n-grab, as opposed to the defined scenario. At least then you could reasonably argue that you were within a move action distance as of initiative, giving you time for free-action pickpockets and activating a teleport scroll. This... is almost assuredly 100% in the Wizard's court, even without Mindsight.


Since I've broken my silence I may as well ask, is it being assumed the the rogue doesn't need to see or know where the focus is to steal it? That's the only thing I've been having trouble following.

In the present posited scenario, the Rogue is aware of the focus beforehand, but must be able to locate and obtain it on his own. This basically means he has to be capable of strip searching the wizard with free-action Sleight of Hand checks.

[Arcanist]

Since I've broken my silence I may as well ask, is it being assumed the the rogue doesn't need to see or know where the focus is to steal it? That's the only thing I've been having trouble following. Also, for what it's worth, I agree by RAW mind blank does not make you invisible to mindsight, though it's a houserule that I think everyone should use in real games.

Seeing as how the Rogue can perform infinite SoH checks against the target it kind of doesn't matter since they're taking everything that isn't nailed down to the wizard :smallamused:

[Hirax]

Ah, free action abuse. You might enjoy it now at level 11, but wait 'til the wizard is at level 17 and can shapechange into an elemental weird for infinite SU legend lores and CoPs. :smallbiggrin:

[olentu]

Pretty sure it leaves little room for debate in 3.x, and it's explicitly spelled out to counter it in Pathfinder.
The part that matters is where it says it blocks "Any attempts to glean information about" the target's mind. Including Miracle or wish, if used in such a manner.
(One of the very few examples where a lower level spell can counter a higher one)

Taking a specifically spelled out exception and using that to justify a general rule is not what i would consider proper. If anything the fact that the exception needed to be specifically spelled out would support the general rule being the opposite.

[Jarian]

Ah, free action abuse. You might enjoy it now at level 11, but wait 'til the wizard is at level 17 and can shapechange into an elemental weird for infinite SU legend lores and CoPs. :smallbiggrin:

I think that's why the victory condition is managing to get away with the focus, not living to see a Wizard's ascension to godhood. :smalltongue:

[Acanous]

I agree by RAW mind blank does not make you invisible to mindsight

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts.
Please explain to me how this is not clear.
Edit: Heck, it's even repeated, Twice! in the spell description, for emphasis.

...as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects...
in case of scrying that scans an area, the subject simply isn't detected

You can put on your mind sight, but the creature with mind blank is immune, immune, and not detectable.

[candycorn]

Bear in mind: If you are detected even once, the DC for other strip attempts is +10 DC. Not unattainable, but it does raise the DC from 40 to 50 for free action autosuccess.

[Jarian]

Please explain to me how this is not clear.

The general reasoning is along one (or both) of two lines: locating your square is not detecting you, and the feat is not a spell or device.

Getting into it further would be better served by just looking up one of the numerous threads on the subject. I sincerely doubt anyone is going to convince anyone else to change their mind on it in this thread.


Bear in mind: If you are detected even once, the DC for other strip attempts is +10 DC. Not unattainable, but it does raise the DC from 40 to 50 for free action autosuccess.

This is only tangentially related, but it strikes me that the rogue's chances of success would increase exponentially with a single level increase, whereas the Wizard has been given the optimal level (just hit a new spell level) in this case. Food for thought.

[candycorn]

Please explain to me how this is not clear.


The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts.Is mindsight a device? Is it a spell?

If not, then that sentence doesn't apply.

Example: "The nation of Cormyr has imposed a tax on all dogs and horses that have been trained for combat."

No matter how trained your pet falcon is, the tax won't apply, because "trained for combat" is only checked if the creature in question is "dog" or "horse".

[Arcanist]

I think that's why the victory condition is managing to get away with the focus, not living to see a Wizard's ascension to godhood. :smalltongue:

We agreed that the Rogue simply has to run away and keep the focus for 24 hours :smalltongue:


Bear in mind: If you are detected even once, the DC for other strip attempts is +10 DC. Not unattainable, but it does raise the DC from 40 to 50 for free action autosuccess.

Don't you love how the Wizard doesn't have spot as a class skill? :smalltongue: I doubt they are going to make a Spot check 40 :smalltongue:

[Little Brother]

Please explain to me how this is not clear.
Edit: Heck, it's even repeated, Twice! in the spell description, for emphasis.


You can put on your mind sight, but the creature with mind blank is immune, immune, and not detectable.Plus, it doesn't even detect or read thoughts or emotions.

[Jarian]

We agreed that the Rogue simply has to run away and keep the focus for 24 hours :smalltongue:

In that case he might as well throw himself into Mount Doom when he 'ports there to destroy the foci. There's no way he's going to survive an angry Wizard with a chance to obtain a new spell component pouch and prep spells.

[Arcanist]

In that case he might as well throw himself into Mount Doom when he 'ports there to destroy the foci. There's no way he's going to survive an angry Wizard with a chance to obtain a new spell component pouch and prep spells.


This seems reasonable.

* Level 9 Human Wizard vs. Level 9 Human Rogue
* 2 level 5 Human Fighter hirelings each
* Wizard and Rogue have 9th-level PC WBL
* Hirelings have 5th-level NPC WBL
* Contingency in place is _____ (must decide; make it relevant)
* Wizard is unaware that someone is out for his focus, but at the same time is reasonably intelligent.
* Rogue is specifically built to steal and keep the focus.
* No obvious cheese, such as the likes of Pun-Pun, infinite loops, etc.

I found a way :smalltongue: but with Mindsight in play I have to be a little bit more creative (Not that much creative though)

[candycorn]

Don't you love how the Wizard doesn't have spot as a class skill? :smalltongue: I doubt they are going to make a Spot check 40 :smalltongue:
Umm... We've been listing SoH DC as +20 for free action. Actually, it's a -20 penalty to the check...

So, I wouldn't bet against a wizard making a DC 20, when you've gotta take 75 items. The odds are against you.

[Jarian]

Umm... We've been listing SoH DC as +20 for free action. Actually, it's a -20 penalty to the check...

So, I wouldn't bet against a wizard making a DC 20, when you've gotta take 75 items. The odds are against you.

Accidentally poke the Wizard's eyes out in your furious search imo.I wonder how long of a white text disclaimer I can fit on one line.

[Acanous]

I believe the text for mind sight is needed here. What's the page/book? I'll look it up and check.

"Locating someone's square" is very much gleaning information on them, and there's another level 8 spell, Discern Location, which says as much and is countered by Mind Blank.

As for "Spell/Device", at the time of printing, there were no other means of detection available. It should read "Spell or Effect". If we're talking Pathfinder it HAS been erratta'd.

Also, in Core, it does say it protects against information gathering spells or *Effects*, then lists screening an area (As with Arcane Eye) as something foiled by mind blank.

[Arcanist]

Umm... We've been listing SoH DC as +20 for free action. Actually, it's a -20 penalty to the check...

So, I wouldn't bet against a wizard making a DC 20, when you've gotta take 75 items. The odds are against you.


+12 ranks +5 Dex + 15 custom magic item (22,500gp) + Skill Focus (SoH) +3 +2 Synergy bonus +2 (deaf hands) and now I can literally roll a 1 still succeed in jacking all your stuff :smallamused:

The odds stop being against you when you remove them as a factor :smalltongue:


If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item.

Meaning the DC for the spot check for noticing the Sleight of Hand check is between 40 and 59 :smalltongue:

[Jarian]

I believe the text for mind sight is needed here. What's the page/book? I'll look it up and check.

"Locating someone's square" is very much gleaning information on them, and there's another level 8 spell, Discern Location, which says as much and is countered by Mind Blank.

As for "Spell/Device", at the time of printing, there were no other means of detection available. It should read "Spell or Effect". If we're talking Pathfinder it HAS been erratta'd.

Lords of Madness, p. 126.

While I agree with you that it should work that way, you can't cite Pathfinder as errata for 3.5, which this whole thread has been using.

[candycorn]

The odds stop being against you when you remove them as a factor :smalltongue:



Meaning the DC for the spot check for noticing the Sleight of Hand check is between 40 and 59 :smalltongue:

Sigh. As a standard action, yes.

As a free action?


Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check.
Emphasis mine, which is what's being used to get the 1 round strip search. That makes the check between 20 and 39, because taking a -20 penalty means lowering your result by 20.

Which is exactly what I meant when I stated that Sleight of Hand as a free action incurs a -20 penalty.

[Arcanist]

Sigh. As a standard action, yes.

As a free action?


Emphasis mine, which is what's being used to get the 1 round strip search. That makes the check between 20 and 39, because taking a -20 penalty means lowering your result by 20.

Which is exactly what I meant when I stated that Sleight of Hand as a free action incurs a -20 penalty.

OH you are right :smalltongue: I feel silly... Still highly unlikely that the Wizard is going to make the Spot check though :smallamused:

[candycorn]

OH you are right :smalltongue: I feel silly... Still highly unlikely that the Wizard is going to make the Spot check though :smallamused:

Well, assuming level 9... 6 ranks in spot, wisdom of +1, and what the hell, +2 from a masterwork item. That's a modest +9. Not likely to win 1 check... But one in a hundred? That's a different story.

Further, bonuses and penalties are subject to stacking restrictions. DC increases? Nope. So each detection increases the DCof future attempts by 10.

That means that if the wizard sees you twice, your DC to lift an item is 40, and your rolls on a free action are 20-39.

[Arcanist]

Well, assuming level 9... 6 ranks in spot, wisdom of +1, and what the hell, +2 from a masterwork item. That's a modest +9. Not likely to win 1 check... But one in a hundred? That's a different story.

Further, bonuses and penalties are subject to stacking restrictions. DC increases? Nope. So each detection increases the DCof future attempts by 10.

That means that if the wizard sees you twice, your DC to lift an item is 40, and your rolls on a free action are 20-39.

I'm confused, where are spot increasing masterwork items? Wisdom is a dump stat to the SAD Wizard, and I'm assuming you want max ranks in Spot (18 ranks) and now we have to add the knowledge that odds are the Wizard will keep the Focus in only 3 places (because It can only be in 3 places... The 2 Robes pockets and the Spell component pouch. The Bag of Holding wouldn't count as being on the Wizard's person).

Meaning that the Wizard has approximately 3 chances to detect me at a 30% chance each time (I refuse to do the math for that), But you know what? None of that really matters... I mean what self respecting Rogue above 7th level doesn't have Hide in Plain Sight? :smallamused: I mean every other class is forced to hide in the Wizard's shadow so why not use the Wizard's shadow to there advantage?

[Little Brother]

How do you figure 30% for Mindsight? It's kinda automatic...

[Hirax]

Wisdom is a dump stat to the SAD Wizard

Not true! Those in it for the long haul dump all physical stats because shapechange and polymorph make them irrelevant. :smallbiggrin:

[Acanous]

Ok, here's what I've got, totally RAW, totally 3.5:



A creature that has this feat possesses innate telepathic ability
that allows it to precisely pinpoint other thinking beings
within range of its telepathy. The creature perceives where the
others are and how powerful their intellects are.
Prerequisite: Telepathy special quality.
Benefi t: A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint
beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence
score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy. This works
much like blindsense—the creature knows what square each
thinking being is in, but it does not see the being, and the
being still has total concealment unless the creature can see
it by some other means.
The creature also perceives several observable characteristics
about each being detected with mindsight, including the
being’s type and Intelligence score. The creature need not take
any additional or special actions to gain this information; it is
as obvious to mindsight as the being’s race and clothing would
be to eyesight.
So it pinpoints Thinking, ie Thoughts. That alone should put it under Mind Blank's purview. Unless you can think without thought.
Furthermore, it reveals information about the creature: Type and Intelligence Score. That ALSO is spelled out in Mind Blank.

The subject is protected from all devices
and spells that detect, influence, or read
emotions or thoughts. This spell protects
against all mind-affecting spells and effects
as well as information gathering by
divination spells or effects. Mind blank
even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish
spells when they are used in such a way as
to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information
about it. In the case of scrying
that scans an area the creature is in, such as
arcane eye, the spell works but the creature
simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that
are targeted specifically at the subject do
not work at all.

So even if you argue that thinking=/=thought, it blocks you from having information revealed about you, from any source.


A discern location spell is among the most
powerful means of locating creatures or
objects. Nothing short of a mind blank spell
or the direct intervention of a deity keeps
you from learning the exact location of a
single individual or object.
Having your exact location determined counts and is countered by mind blank.


So, from what I can tell, Mindsight doesn't work on a creature that's been Mind Blank'd.

[Little Brother]

Ok, here's what I've got, totally RAW, totally 3.5:


So it pinpoints Thinking, ie Thoughts. That alone should put it under Mind Blank's purview. Unless you can think without thought.
Furthermore, it reveals information about the creature: Type and Intelligence Score. That ALSO is spelled out in Mind Blank.Nope, detects thinking beings. Not thoughts. Also, still not a device.

So even if you argue that thinking=/=thought, it blocks you from having information revealed about you, from any source. By DIVINATION spells or effects. Divination means something quite specific. Mindsight ain't divination.

Having your exact location determined counts and is countered by mind blank.


So, from what I can tell, Mindsight doesn't work on a creature that's been Mind Blank'd.Uh, no.

[Acanous]

Divination spells is BEFORE the Or.

it reads [Divination spells] or [Effects]
there is no such thing as a Divination Effect.
Is Mindsight an effect? If so, does it reveal information about a creature?
Yes and Yes. It's countered by Mind Blank.

Supporting argument: Wish and Miracle are not divination spells. They are still countered. Thus you do not need the [Divination] tag. It counters *Anything* that reveals information on a subject, including things that reveal your INT score and where you're standing.

[Hirax]

Divination spells is BEFORE the Or.

it reads [Divination spells] or [Effects]
there is no such thing as a Divination Effect.
Is Mindsight an effect? If so, does it reveal information about a creature?
Yes and Yes. It's countered by Mind Blank.

Is eyesight an effect too? It reveals info about a creature! :smallbiggrin:

[Acanous]

technically speaking, no, it's a skill check.

[Hirax]

technically speaking, no, it's a skill check.

So, skill checks don't produce effects, but mindsight does? Do you have any rules basis for such a claim?

[Arcanist]

How do you figure 30% for Mindsight? It's kinda automatic...

Because Mindsight doesn't tell you what I'm doing :smallconfused: It just tells you that there is a creature in front of you... That is unless you can see the Rogue through other means... like looking at him/her However since the Rogue is hiding in the Wizard's Shadow they are treated as having total concealment because they do not have any other means of detect them... Besides performing a Listen check :smalltongue:

Sure you can say you know I'm in Square G6 but you can't actually do anything about it because I have completely concealment because your other sense can't detect the Rogue's...

EDIT: I should be more clear, there is a 30% chance that the Wizard will notice that someone is pickpocketing him/her on any given attempt

[candycorn]

So it pinpoints Thinking, ie Thoughts. That alone should put it under Mind Blank's purview. Unless you can think without thought. Identifying the general area of a creature that thinks isn't the same as detecting thoughts.


Having your exact location determined counts and is countered by mind blank.Incorrect. Having your exact location determined by Discern Location is countered by mind blank.



So, from what I can tell, Mindsight doesn't work on a creature that's been Mind Blank'd.
Then you are mistaken. Nothing in mind blank explicitly prevents any ability of mindsight from functioning, by RAW.

[candycorn]

I'm confused, where are spot increasing masterwork items? Wisdom is a dump stat to the SAD Wizard, and I'm assuming you want max ranks in Spot (18 ranks) and now we have to add the knowledge that odds are the Wizard will keep the Focus in only 3 places (because It can only be in 3 places... The 2 Robes pockets and the Spell component pouch. The Bag of Holding wouldn't count as being on the Wizard's person).

Meaning that the Wizard has approximately 3 chances to detect me at a 30% chance each time (I refuse to do the math for that), But you know what? None of that really matters... I mean what self respecting Rogue above 7th level doesn't have Hide in Plain Sight? :smallamused: I mean every other class is forced to hide in the Wizard's shadow so why not use the Wizard's shadow to there advantage?

MW tools are in the SRD.
In addition, there's eyes of the eagle, which adds another +5. That puts it at +14.

Also, you're not creative, if you think there are only three locations.
Robe pockets, belt pouches, backpack main pouch, any of 8 side pouches for the backpack, inside pocket of robe, under effects of shrink item spell, and disguised as a speck of dust at the bottom of a coin purse, polymorphed into the wizard's eye patch/sock/underwear, inside the wizard's underwear in the front (+2 circumstance to diplomacy checks with the ladies), inside the underwear in the back (-4 circumstance to all social checks)....

I can go on, really.

[Little Brother]

Because Mindsight doesn't tell you what I'm doing :smallconfused: It just tells you that there is a creature in front of you... That is unless you can see the Rogue through other means... like looking at him/her However since the Rogue is hiding in the Wizard's Shadow they are treated as having total concealment because they do not have any other means of detect them... Besides performing a Listen check :smalltongue:

Sure you can say you know I'm in Square G6 but you can't actually do anything about it because I have completely concealment because your other sense can't detect the Rogue's...

EDIT: I should be more clear, there is a 30% chance that the Wizard will notice that someone is pickpocketing him/her on any given attemptCelerity/any other Swift move, Uncanny Forethought->Fireball/Vitriolic Sphere/etc, or Wall of X/Save or Lose/Dim Door/etc. If there's an unseen thing right next to you, you either kill it, or get the hell out. Or maybe pull out your Blindfold of True Darkness, then kill it normally.

[candycorn]

Celerity/any other Swift move, Uncanny Forethought->Fireball/Vitriolic Sphere/etc, or Wall of X/Save or Lose/Dim Door/etc. If there's an unseen thing right next to you, you either kill it, or get the hell out. Or maybe pull out your Blindfold of True Darkness, then kill it normally.

Any rogue worth his salt will have Darkstalker. That makes the Blindfold less useful.

[Arcanist]

MW tools are in the SRD.
In addition, there's eyes of the eagle, which adds another +5. That puts it at +14.


These tools serve the same purpose as artisan’s tools (above), but masterwork artisan’s tools are the perfect tools for the job, so you get a +2 circumstance bonus on Craft checks made with them.

Spot is not craft, otherwise you and me are thinking of 2 totally different things and if we are, link me to it if you would be so kind. This becomes obscenely moot the moment I figure out how to blind you for a single round :smallfrown:


Also, you're not creative, if you think there are only three locations. Robe pockets, belt pouches, backpack main pouch, any of 8 side pouches for the backpack, inside pocket of robe, under effects of shrink item spell, and disguised as a speck of dust at the bottom of a coin purse

So all I'd have to do is steal the Backpack, the belt, the robe, the coin purse... Not to hard.


polymorphed into the wizard's eye patch/sock/underwear, inside the wizard's underwear in the front (+2 circumstance to diplomacy checks with the ladies), inside the underwear in the back (-4 circumstance to all social checks)....

I can go on, really.

I kind of giggled a little here (Not only because you don't have access to polymorph any object but something else...) :smalltongue:


Celerity/any other Swift move, Uncanny Forethought->Fireball/Vitriolic Sphere/etc, or Wall of X/Save or Lose/Dim Door/etc. If there's an unseen thing right next to you, you either kill it, or get the hell out. Or maybe pull out your Blindfold of True Darkness, then kill it normally.

You wasted your Celerity because those spells both offer reflex saves which Evasion gets me out of... Kind of shocked LB thought you were better then that... :smalltongue: I'd like to recommend another addendum to the rules stating that teleporting away from the Rogue constitutes a surrender on the Wizard's part :smallamused: My reasons for offering this is because having the option of simply running away makes the entire experiment moot, because if the Wizard doesn't like the current situation they are in they can literally just flip the table and swear and cuss at everyone stating how they've won...

Oh and on a side note: The Rogue can use Celerity as well at the same action. (Don't you love UMD?)

[Acanous]

Incorrect. Having your exact location determined by Discern Location is countered by mind blank.

Or by Wish or by Miracle, which are examples and by no means exhaustive.
Having your exact location determined counts.
Even if it did not, the ability ALSO reveals your int score, which puts it under the domain of Mind blank again.

So... You're immune to the ability. Because it reveals information about you (Your int score). Therin it does not detect you (Because you are immune to it).

So, instead of being Immune, Immune, Immune, and Undetectable, you're only Immune and Undetectable.

[Acanous]

So, skill checks don't produce effects, but mindsight does? Do you have any rules basis for such a claim?

SKILL CHECKS
A skill check takes into account a character’s training (skill rank),
natural talent (ability modifier), and luck (the die roll). It may also
take into account his or her race’s knack for doing certain things
(racial bonus) or what armor he or she is wearing (armor check
penalty), or a certain feat the character possesses, among other
things. For instance, a character who has the Skill Focus feat (page
100) related to a certain skill gets a +3 bonus on all checks involving
that skill.
To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add your character’s skill
modifier for that skill. The skill modifier incorporates the character’s
ranks in that skill and the ability modifier for that skill’s key ability,
plus any other miscellaneous modifiers that may apply, including
racial bonuses and armor check penalties. The higher the result, the
better. Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of
20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is
not an automatic failure.
Skill checks do not produce effects, they produce Results.

[Hirax]

SKILL CHECKS
A skill check takes into account a character’s training (skill rank),
natural talent (ability modifier), and luck (the die roll). It may also
take into account his or her race’s knack for doing certain things
(racial bonus) or what armor he or she is wearing (armor check
penalty), or a certain feat the character possesses, among other
things. For instance, a character who has the Skill Focus feat (page
100) related to a certain skill gets a +3 bonus on all checks involving
that skill.
To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add your character’s skill
modifier for that skill. The skill modifier incorporates the character’s
ranks in that skill and the ability modifier for that skill’s key ability,
plus any other miscellaneous modifiers that may apply, including
racial bonuses and armor check penalties. The higher the result, the
better. Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of
20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is
not an automatic failure.
Skill checks do not produce effects, they produce Results.

I will happily grant you that skill checks produce results. That doesn't prove they can't produce effects.

[Acanous]

in any case where a skill check would produce an effect, that also reveals information about a target, who is mind blanked, that effect would not detect information about the target.
It would otherwise work normally.
As far as spot checks are concerned, that's actually covered in opposed checks. It again is a result and not an effect ;p

Are there any examples of a skill check producing an effect and not a result?

[Hirax]

Are there any examples of a skill check producing an effect and not a result?

You are missing the point entirely. You're trying to say that "effect" and "result" are defined game terms. Up to now your only proof of this claim is an excerpt that happens to use the word "result" in such a manner that it appears to be ordinary language as opposed to a defined game term.

[candycorn]

Or by Wish or by Miracle, which are examples and by no means exhaustive.Possibly, but no rule example allows for it, so the rest of those is homebrew.

Having your exact location determined counts.Your location isn't being revealed. "something is in X square" isn't an exact location. That said, please cite HOW.

Even if it did not, the ability ALSO reveals your int score, which puts it under the domain of Mind blank again.Cite HOW.


So... You're immune to the ability. Because it reveals information about you (Your int score). Therin it does not detect you (Because you are immune to it).You keep saying this, but you haven't SHOWN it.

Saying something is true doesn't mean it is so. SHOW it. Cite specific text in Mind Blank that allows for non-divination, non-spell, non-device effects to be covered by it.

[Acanous]

OK.
Here's Mind Blank again, with my "How" in bold:

The subject is protected from all devices
and spells that detect, influence, or read
emotions or thoughts. This spell protects
against all mind-affecting spells and effects
as well as information gathering by
divination spells or effects. Mind blank
even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish
spells when they are used in such a way as
to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information
about it. In the case of scrying
that scans an area the creature is in, such as
arcane eye, the spell works but the creature
simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that
are targeted specifically at the subject do
not work at all.


for those who want the easy text:
This spell protects [the target] against information gathering by effects. even wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about [the subject].

That's how.

[Little Brother]

You wasted your Celerity because those spells both offer reflex saves which Evasion gets me out of... Kind of shocked LB thought you were better then that... :smalltongue: I'd like to recommend another addendum to the rules stating that teleporting away from the Rogue constitutes a surrender on the Wizard's part :smallamused: My reasons for offering this is because having the option of simply running away makes the entire experiment moot, because if the Wizard doesn't like the current situation they are in they can literally just flip the table and swear and cuss at everyone stating how they've won... Or Solid Fog. Or Forcecage. Or even Circle of Death(Hell, I could get a CL20 Blasphemy/Dictum off at level 9. If you can't cast level 6+ spells at level 9, you aren't trying). And running away is a perfectly valid method of preventing theft.

Oh and on a side note: The Rogue can use Celerity as well at the same action. (Don't you love UMD?)Yes, but UMDing a wand is a standard action. So, yeah, I am unimpressed.

[Acanous]

Or Solid Fog. Or Forcecage. Or even Circle of Death(Hell, I could get a CL20 Blasphemy/Dictum off at level 9. If you can't cast level 6+ spells at level 9, you aren't trying). And running away is a perfectly valid method of preventing theft.
Yes, but UMDing a wand is a standard action. So, yeah, I am unimpressed.

Technically a Ring of Spell Storing lets you use the stored spell as though you were casting it (So a full round for summoning, swift for Celerity) but that's pretty freaking expensive.

[candycorn]

OK.
Here's Mind Blank again, with my "How" in bold:

The subject is protected from all devices
and spells that detect, influence, or read
emotions or thoughts. This spell protects
against all mind-affecting spells and effects
as well as information gathering by
divination spells or effects. Mind blank
even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish
spells when they are used in such a way as
to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information
about it. In the case of scrying
that scans an area the creature is in, such as
arcane eye, the spell works but the creature
simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that
are targeted specifically at the subject do
not work at all.


for those who want the easy text:
This spell protects [the target] against information gathering by effects. even wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about [the subject].

That's how.

Sigh. Anyone can bold selected text. Here's the real deal.

This spell protects against:
all mind-affecting spells and effects (Mindsight is not a mind-affecting spell or effect)

information gathering by divination spells or effects. (Mindsight is not a divination spell or effect.)

Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. (Mindsight is not limited wish, miracle, or a wish spell)

In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. (Mindsight is not scrying)

So, what have we learned?

That we have a bunch of things that Mind Blank shields from. Unfortunately for your argument, Mindsight is not any of those things.

We know this because Mindsight does not have the mind-affecting, divination, or scrying tags.

[Acanous]

Are you saying it is not an effect, or that it is not an effect with the [divination] tag? My argument here is that you do not need the [divination] tag, that the seperation is [Divination Spells] or [Effects that reveal information about the subject]

This is supported by two things:
One: there are no effects with the divination tag that are not also divination spells (So no reason for the seperation if it was supposed to read "Divination Effects")
Two: Non-divination tagged effects are listed as being under the purview of Mind Blank. (Wish, Limited Wish, Miracle)

In one case, if you are arguing that it is not an effect, then what is it?
In the other, if you are arguing that it must be a [divination effect] that reveals information about the subject, see above for my counterpoint.

Edit: also, when you look at how the wording is ordered:

1: This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects
2: as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.
Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish
spells when they are used in such a way as
to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information
about it.

I believe that it stops information gathering, not divination tags.
Look where it reiterates under Wish what it protects against.
It states the Mind affecting part, and then states the Information gathering part. Not the Divination part.

[Arcanist]

Or Solid Fog. Or Forcecage. Or even Circle of Death(Hell, I could get a CL20 Blasphemy/Dictum off at level 9.

Except for the tiny rule we all decided upon stating that the Wizard can't just super buff his caster level past 12 :smallconfused: I mean our rules CLEARLY don't apply to you...


If you can't cast level 6+ spells at level 9, you aren't trying.


No, it really isn't. You are obviously claiming either high-OP doesn't exist IRL, or is badwrongfun. Which is it?

"No, it really isn't. You are obviously claiming either low-OP doesn't exist IRL, or its badwrongfun. Which is it?" :smalltongue:


And running away is a perfectly valid method of preventing theft.

That isn't the point of this exercise, the purpose is to see if a Rogue can steal a fine sized object from a Wizard and hold on to it for 24 hours with limits... hell we all agreed that the Rogue can only make 6 standard actions out of those 24 hours, is bound by WBL and STILL has less to work with then almighty Wizard... Hell even if we gave the Rogue triple WBL he'd still have less to work with... Eh Whatever, Knowing you you'll take this entire comment as an admission of defeat, thats just how people like you work :smallsmile:


EDIT:

Yes, but UMDing a wand is a standard action. So, yeah, I am unimpressed.

You can't even put Celerity into a Wand... :smallconfused:

[Wavelab]

Before we go further into the argument, does said wizard have mindsight? Does he have a dip in mindbender? If so then his build should be updated to include that dip.

[candycorn]

Are you saying it is not an effect, or that it is not an effect with the [divination] tag? My argument here is that you do not need the [divination] tag, that the seperation is [Divination Spells] or [Effects that reveal information about the subject]

This is supported by two things:
One: there are no effects with the divination tag that are not also divination spells (So no reason for the seperation if it was supposed to read "Divination Effects")
Two: Non-divination tagged effects are listed as being under the purview of Mind Blank. (Wish, Limited Wish, Miracle)

In one case, if you are arguing that it is not an effect, then what is it?
In the other, if you are arguing that it must be a [divination effect] that reveals information about the subject, see above for my counterpoint.

So... you are arguing to interpret this against the conventions of english language because... you choose that something doesn't make sense to you, so you will interpret it incorrectly to favor your view?

I am arguing precisely what I said before. I took the precise words, in order, from the text, omitting nothing, and refuted each point.

You highlighted a mishmosh of scattered words to support your point. In other words, you are ignoring the words that don't suit you.

[Hirax]

Are you saying it is not an effect, or that it is not an effect

Again, please provide a citation for where effect is defined, and defined in such a way that it excludes eyesight, scent, tremorsense, etc.

[Acanous]

no, I'm ignoring words prefaced by "Or".

See, where it says Mind affecting spells AND effects? That's the mind affecting tag being applied to the effect.
See the Information gathering by divination spells OR effects? That's saying you don't need the divination tag.

It's the difference between And and Or. But since you're lecturing me on proper english, you already knew that.

[Acanous]

Rules Compendium, pages 80 and 81 respectively. Line of Effect and Line of Sight.
Mindsight is not subject to line of sight. Mindsense has an area of effect. Mindsense is an effect.

[Hirax]

Rules Compendium, pages 80 and 81 respectively. Line of Effect and Line of Sight.
Mindsight is not subject to line of sight. Mindsense has an area of effect. Mindsense is an effect.

Non sequitur, and the consequences of such an interpretation result in tremorsense being foiled by mind blank.

[Acanous]

entirely possible.

[olentu]

Bah, if you are going to quote the rules compendium use the right sections. Rules compendium page nine says the following.

"A feat’s description defines the action required and the effect."

"The skill’s description defines the action required and the effect."

Thus both skills and feats produce effects.

[candycorn]

entirely possible.

I do believe I'm done here.

It's not unbalanced to rule mind blank foils mindsight. All we're saying is that it's not the rules.

Heck, I rule it that way in my games. But I don't kid myself. It's a reasonable houserule, as opposed to the RAW.

There's nothing wrong with reasonable houserules. Every game has them. The only wrong thing is when you strain and strain to force the rules into what you wish they were. It's ok to be one, it's ok to be the other. The only time it's not ok is when we deceive ourselves and others to believe one is the other, when it's not.

Your view is so persistent that you are willing to take a mundane effect based on movement and vibrations, and rule it in, just so you don't shatter your argument on the dispassionate rocks of logic and reason.

[Acanous]

mundane effect based on movement and vibrations
Yep, I'm willing to say that a lv 8 magic spell with the purpose of rendering all information on a subject undetectable could entirely possibly render that person undetectable via movement and vibration.

If "Mind blank stops mind sight" is to be a house rule, it is a house rule that is heavilly implied by the text of the spell. Very heavilly. Like "Is this something bigger than Wish? No? Well then, it should be foiled, as Wish is foiled." implied.
I definately read that Or as being an Or, and not as it being an And. If you read it as such, mind blank DOES stop mindsight. It also stops tremorsense, and pretty much any other way of determining your location short of guessing.

The word "All" and the text about "Even wish" points to Mind Blank being a General rule. If something contains the word "Detect" in it's description, and isn't followed by "This can even detect creatures shielded by Mind Blank", then it can't.
But that argument is just interpretation.

Edit: For the sake of reasonable interpretations, let us assume that the ability to locate a creature, such as by sight or tremorsense is not within mind blank's purview (does not count as "Information"). If this is the case, would my interpretation of mind blank countering Effects which reveal information about a creature solid?

If so, then it should still counter Mindsight, based on mindsight revealing the creature's intelligence score.

In that way, RAW could be satisfied while having Mind Blank counter Mindsight.

[candycorn]

Yep, I'm willing to say that a lv 8 magic spell with the purpose of rendering all information on a subject undetectable could entirely possibly render that person undetectable via movement and vibration. So then, we're also adding in Blindsight, blindsense, scent, and sight? You know, there's a spell that does all that. It's called Superior Invisibility.


If "Mind blank stops mind sight" is to be a house rule, it is a house rule that is heavilly implied by the text of the spell. Very heavilly. Like "Is this something bigger than Wish? No? Well then, it should be foiled, as Wish is foiled." implied.Not at all. There's not even a trace of implication, beyond what you have fabricated. Let's look at mundane vision. Is that bigger than Wish? No? Great! Mind Blank makes us visually undetectable! Is Wish bigger than dominate person? No? Great! Mind Blank makes us immune to Dominate person, since that can be used to reveal information about you!

See what happens when we leave what the spell actually says, and instead, use comparative logic to extrapolate what we feel should be allowed? We get so much subjectivity that an objective view is not possible.


If you read it as such, mind blank DOES stop mindsight. It also stops tremorsense, and pretty much any other way of determining your location short of guessing. I'm relatively sure that Mind Blank does not imply invisibility.


The word "All" and the text about "Even wish" points to Mind Blank being a General rule.And I would say that it's an example, since wish is a spell that would gather information, which is CLEARLY protected by Mind Blank. Mindsight does not have that distinction.


If something contains the word "Detect" in it's description, and isn't followed by "This can even detect creatures shielded by Mind Blank", then it can't. That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. It is not supported, in any way, by the actual text of the abilities in question, but you can have that opinion.


Edit: For the sake of reasonable interpretations, let us assume that the ability to locate a creature, such as by sight or tremorsense is not within mind blank's purview (does not count as "Information"). If this is the case, would my interpretation of mind blank countering Effects which reveal information about a creature solid?Not under any logical interpretation, as vision is an ability, which generates an effect. How do we know this? Because it is not inherent to all creatures. Same with Tremorsense. Same with Blindsight, Blindsense, Scent, and Mindsight. They're all a mundane ability possessed by the creature, which grants information in the form of a sensory system. Yes, mindsight is not listed as a feat type that would treat it as magical. Therefore, the ability is Extraordinary, just like Tremorsense.

The interpretation that includes it in something that mind blank blocks is considered unreasonable, by both you and I. That interpretation is the one you have put forth.

If so, then it should still counter Mindsight, based on mindsight revealing the creature's intelligence score.Except that it's not a divination effect, a mind-affecting effect, or a spell.

Interpret it differently if you want. Call the sun purple and water dust. It won't make it true.


In that way, RAW could be satisfied while having Mind Blank counter Mindsight.Except that it can't, because the rules establish no difference between a feat that grants tremorsense or blindsense and one that grants mindsight. That is something you are inventing, with no practical purpose, other than being the only possible interpretation under which you can claim to not be wrong.

It's a house rule, Acanous. A reasonable house rule.... But a house rule. I can no more claim otherwise than I could claim that trees are animals.

[Acanous]

Mind Blank makes us immune to Dominate person
erm, it seems that in your excitement you went off a little there, Mind blank actually does make you immune to Dominate.


Except that it can't, because the rules establish no difference between a feat that grants tremorsense or blindsense and one that grants mindsight. That is something you are inventing, with no practical purpose, other than being the only possible interpretation under which you can claim to not be wrong.


Yep. There would be no difference-
except that they do not reveal any information about the subject (Such as intelligence score)
Which would mean Mindsight wouldn't work, but tremor sense would.
In this interpretation, you are correct that I am not wrong.
Now then, I believe it's on the mindsight proponents to provide some proof that this interpretation is not correct.

[olentu]

erm, it seems that in your excitement you went off a little there, Mind blank actually does make you immune to Dominate.


Yep. There would be no difference-
except that they do not reveal any information about the subject (Such as intelligence score)
Which would mean Mindsight wouldn't work, but tremor sense would.
In this interpretation, you are correct that I am not wrong.
Now then, I believe it's on the mindsight proponents to provide some proof that this interpretation is not correct.

Even if we were to consider that reading, mind blank only stops information gathering by an effect not effects that gather information. So the parts of the effect that do not gather information (which in this hypothetical includes revealing position) still work as normal.

However position is information and so it is either all or nothing. Either mind blank blocks location by all effects (which includes all feats and skills) or only divination effects. I can see no middle ground here.

[Acanous]

If we take Discern Location as the example, then because it reveals other things about the target (The spell reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like)) it blocks the entirety of the spell.

I agree that it's all or nothing, like an immunity to Fear, it also stops the secondary effects if it stops the info leak. So Tremorsense, darkvision, and the like wouldn't be blocked, but the entirety of Mindsight would.

[olentu]

If we take Discern Location as the example, then because it reveals other things about the target (The spell reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like)) it blocks the entirety of the spell.

I agree that it's all or nothing, like an immunity to Fear, it also stops the secondary effects if it stops the info leak. So Tremorsense, darkvision, and the like wouldn't be blocked, but the entirety of Mindsight would.

No discern location is blocked because position is information and discern location is a divination spell.

Mind blank either blocks all information gathering from all effects or blocks all information gathering from divination effects and position is information.

[Acanous]

It is blocked for being a divination spell, which makes it a little harder to quantify. (As it is blocked at least twice, once for being a div spell, once for revealing info) if it were blocked three times, (The third time for making the caster aware of the target's location) then we'd have a definitive answer one way or the other. I believe the proper thing to do in this case is to contact the devs.

..luckilly, WoTC actually has a help line for this sort of thing, but I'm not sure if they still offer 3.5 support.

[olentu]

It is blocked for being a divination spell, which makes it a little harder to quantify. (As it is blocked at least twice, once for being a div spell, once for revealing info) if it were blocked three times, (The third time for making the caster aware of the target's location) then we'd have a definitive answer one way or the other. I believe the proper thing to do in this case is to contact the devs.

..luckilly, WoTC actually has a help line for this sort of thing, but I'm not sure if they still offer 3.5 support.

The spell is blocked because all it does is gather information. If it did something other then gather information that would work just fine since mind blank does not block divination spells, it blocks information gathering by divination spells. The two things are not the same. And so mind blank either blocks information gathering by all effects or just divination effects and position is information.

I would say, don't bother contacting the developers even if you happen to have them sitting right next to you. But I suppose, if you really want to stop discussion of what the rules say and change to what the developers intended by all means go ahead. I will probably stop caring much at that point since we would no longer be talking about what the rules actually say.

[Little Brother]

Mind blank makes all your friends immune to Dominate Person, since that could gather information about you.

Mind Blank makes you immune to MEMORY. Is it more powerful than Wish? Nope. Can it get info on you? Yep.

Can Fireball gather information on you? Yep, it could kill you, and thus let you be Speak with Dead'd. Same with it happening to anyone you've ever met.

Mind Blank makes you and everyone you've ever met immune to damage and death.

[ryu]

Also people were pointing out that I can't make a non-magical pocket that could hold a bag of holding. What volume are we assuming the bag of holding takes up? I know it's fifteen pounds so I have to make the pocket a certain strength but how much size do I need. One cubic foot 1x1x1? two 2x1x1? I can work with either of those and a bit more without too much issue.

[whibla]

I'm sorry I was away this weekend, so was unable to comment before now, but I am glad this thread didn't devolve into an argument as to whether Schrodinger's Wizard can avoid every situation, all the time, and do everything, whenever he wants...only better!

"Yes he can" ... "No he can't" ... "Yes he can" .."No he CANT!" ... "Yes he can, yes he can, yes HE CAN!"

Oh, wait...

Having said that, there were some interesting (and humorous) comments as to how the initial situation could be avoided or mitigated:

"I keep my focus so far up where the sun don't shine that even the most depraved pixie wouldn't want to get his hands on it - Wince the Upstanding (elven court mage)."

And there did seem to be a consensus as to the location of objects kept within extra-dimensional spaces. Namely elsewhere / not on the person's person, so to speak. I was interested in the notion of polymorphing the focus into something else, though I was very suprised that no-one queried the validity of this idea. If the focus (in this case) is a small life-like statuette that you must keep on your person, and you polymorph it into a pair of underpants, are you really considered to still be carrying a small life-like statuette? I mean, polymorph even changes type and subtype, yet no-one questions if a pair of pants (sorry, sock) also remains a statuette. Comments / thoughts?

With regards the digression on Mindsight, the ability description specifically mentions telepathy as it's modus operandi. Since telepathy is a divination ability (c.f Rary's Telepathic Bond, Detect Thoughts, et al.) you'd have to bet your bottom dollar on Mind Blank preventing it working. Since Mindsight wasn't even conceived when the description of Mind Blank was written it'd be pretty strange (as well as suprisingly prescient on the part of the authors) for the spell's description to specifically mention it. Common sense dictates, however. On the other hand, since Tremor Sense etc. are all extraordinary abilites, relying on natural senses, there's no reason to think that Mind Blank would stop them, any more than it would stop someone seeing a creature under the effects of Mind Blank with their own two eyes.

Skill-wise, there's been little debate as to the exact limits of Sleight of Hand. I'd never assume that anyone has infinite free actions in a round. However, even if you only allow a couple of Slight of Hand actions in a 6 second round (one to open a pouch, one to loot it, for example) like many of the skills as written there's seeming scope for abuse, and little that can be done to actually prevent the action from having occurred.

Finally, thank you for your well thought out responses. As I said in the original post, I'm less interested in strict RAW responses than I am in your own ideas and solutions, as they relate to the issues. A response such as "I keep a magic mouth on my focus, triggered to go off when it's removed from my pouch" is of more interest than "A rogue would die before he could even get close to me. Period."

[Invader]

Umm... We've been listing SoH DC as +20 for free action. Actually, it's a -20 penalty to the check...

So, I wouldn't bet against a wizard making a DC 20, when you've gotta take 75 items. The odds are against you.

Again, its completely unreasonable to expect a wizard to be walking around with 75 statuettes in his pocket.

[ryu]

You seem to be forgetting that all but the actual focus are replicas... Perfectly within wealth by level.

[Invader]

Also people were pointing out that I can't make a non-magical pocket that could hold a bag of holding. What volume are we assuming the bag of holding takes up? I know it's fifteen pounds so I have to make the pocket a certain strength but how much size do I need. One cubic foot 1x1x1? two 2x1x1? I can work with either of those and a bit more without too much issue.

If the statuette is in a bag of holding its not in your possession and contingency will not work. Plus you can't reasonably put a 15lb bag in any sized pocket.

[Invader]

You seem to be forgetting that all but the actual focus are replicas... Perfectly within wealth by level.

I'm not forgetting anything. It has nothing to do with the cost of the items but the weight of carrying them around.

[ryu]

I can too put a fifteen pound bag in a properly sized pocket. Adamantite fiber thread used to sew a 3x2 sheet of fabric with multiple foldovers and stitch layers into the inside of your favorite robe. If I can think of mundane ways of doing this it should be easy with non extradimentional magic. Problem?:smallamused:

This whole point arose when someone pointed out that I couldn't count the bag of holding as in my possession unless I could fit the astral plane in my pocket. Challenge accepted.

[Little Brother]

I'm sorry I was away this weekend, so was unable to comment before now, but I am glad this thread didn't devolve into an argument as to whether Schrodinger's Wizard can avoid every situation, all the time, and do everything, whenever he wants...only better!

"Yes he can" ... "No he can't" ... "Yes he can" .."No he CANT!" ... "Yes he can, yes he can, yes HE CAN!"

Oh, wait...It's like nobody here has even heard of Uncanny Forethought.

With regards the digression on Mindsight, the ability description specifically mentions telepathy as it's modus operandi.No it doesn't. It says its telepathy range is Mindsight's range, but that is it. It has no other mechanical relation to telepathy.
Since telepathy is a divination ability (c.f Rary's Telepathic Bond, Detect Thoughts, et al.) you'd have to bet your bottom dollar on Mind Blank preventing it working.Uh, no. Telepathy itself is, a special quality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#telepathy) which has exactly nothing to do with those spells.
Since Mindsight wasn't even conceived when the description of Mind Blank was written it'd be pretty strange (as well as suprisingly prescient on the part of the authors) for the spell's description to specifically mention it.This has anything to do with anything, how, exactly? It is not referenced in the Mindsight feat, and Mindsight, nor any qualities of mindsight, is not listed in the effects of Mind Blank. I'm not seeing what's so complex here.

Common sense dictates, however. On the other hand, since Tremor Sense etc. are all extraordinary abilites, relying on natural senses, there's no reason to think that Mind Blank would stop them, any more than it would stop someone seeing a creature under the effects of Mind Blank with their own two eyes.Mindsight is a feat. It's EX(Or natural, or whatever feats are). And, they gather information on the target, and, if mindsight is a device like whatshisface was saying, then sight/blindsight/sense would be blocked just as well. Pro tip: They aren't.

Skill-wise, there's been little debate as to the exact limits of Sleight of Hand. I'd never assume that anyone has infinite free actions in a round.And that has to do with this, how? You are allowed infinite free actions a round, regardless of what'd you'd assume.

Invaderk:You need to make an appraise check to tell if they are fake, no matter how cheap/light/badly made they are. That buys the wizard a minute, unless the rogue is somehow looping time stops.

[Invader]

Invaderk:You need to make an appraise check to tell if they are fake, no matter how cheap/light/badly made they are. That buys the wizard a minute, unless the rogue is somehow looping time stops.

My point is 75 statuettes weighs a lot and its unreasonable to think someone would have that many in his pocket especially for the sole purpose of thwarting a single rogue who may or may not have the requisite ability to actually steal that many without him noticing.

[Arcanist]

You need to make an appraise check to tell if they are fake, no matter how cheap/light/badly made they are. That buys the wizard a minute, unless the rogue is somehow looping time stops.

It doesn't really matter if you are getting the reals or the fakes since your just grabbing them all indiscriminately :smalltongue: The focuses are then put into either a bag of holding and then

and on a side note: Mindbenders Telepathy is Su, not sure if that means anything here but its just a for reference and also just curious but is Class Feature is a game term correct? :smallconfused:

EDIT: Also if a Wizard is willing to go so far as to hide the focus in there... you know... yeah... then I think they've taken paranoia to a whole new level :smalltongue:

[Invader]

I can too put a fifteen pound bag in a properly sized pocket. Adamantite fiber thread used to sew a 3x2 sheet of fabric with multiple foldovers and stitch layers into the inside of your favorite robe. If I can think of mundane ways of doing this it should be easy with non extradimentional magic. Problem?:smallamused:

This whole point arose when someone pointed out that I couldn't count the bag of holding as in my possession unless I could fit the astral plane in my pocket. Challenge accepted.

Its not that you can't do it, its the fact that its unreasonable because of the weight.

Go sew a huge pocket on your jeans and walk around with a 15lb. bowling ball stuffed in it. Sure it will fit but it ridiculous to think that someone would walk around hampered like that.

Not to mention that we've already discussed why a BoH won't work anyway.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Can sleight of hand work if something is nailed down?

If not lashing it to your chest with several layers of tape or even gluing it to yourself be an insurmountable counter?

[Little Brother]

It doesn't really matter if you are getting the reals or the fakes since your just grabbing them all indiscriminately :smalltongue: The focuses are then put into either a bag of holding and thenMeh. This wizard can cast LPB. The focus is on his person, but he's on his personal demiplane and is astrally projected.

and on a side note: Mindbenders Telepathy is Su, not sure if that means anything here but its just a for reference and also just curious but is Class Feature is a game term correct? :smallconfused:The mindsight has nothing to do with the telepathy though. They are totally unrelated, except for the shared range. It's an easy argument for the Mindsight to see into AMFs.

On the topic of gigantic bags in pants: Codpieces - Stylish AND practical for your Medieval Eurostasis wizard.

[Arcanist]

Meh. This wizard can cast LPB. The focus is on his person, but he's on his personal demiplane and is astrally projected.

Completely irrelevant.


The mindsight has nothing to do with the telepathy though. They are totally unrelated, except for the shared range. It's an easy argument for the Mindsight to see into AMFs.

Just answer the question: Is Class Feature a game term. I'll be the judge of whether its related or not :smalltongue:


On the topic of gigantic bags in pants: Codpieces - Stylish AND practical for your Medieval Eurostasis wizard.

Hey, this wizard is currently astrally projecting from his custom Demiplane created by his genesis trap, as he is PB a Succubus to pleasure him while he is taking time out of his day to have his Astral projected form stand next to a random rogue who is trying to steal the focus and the other replicas that are currently permanently shrunken do to the size of a dust mite and are currently floating around in his blood stream... So sure he can also have a Codpiece of Holding that weighs half a pound... Did I mention that this Codpiece of holding has extra smaller pockets in it that function as Codpiece of holdings so effectively his Codpiece has infinite space on it...

This Wizard? PERFECTLY NORMAL! :smallbiggrin:

[ryu]

Yeah little brother has the right idea. This is dnd! We can be as silly as we want! Also you'll remember that someone put the challenge to me as a condition for this working. Now tell me does the bag of holding fit in the pocket or not? Simple yes or no question.

[Kazyan]

Yeah little brother has the right idea. This is dnd! We can be as silly as we want! Also you'll remember that someone put the challenge to me as a condition for this working. Now tell me does the bag of holding fit in the pocket or not? Simple yes or no question.

SRD:


Bag of Holding: This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size.

Does the bag bulge out when stuff is in it? if so, that's not going into a pocket. If it doesn't, then you could fold it up, though it would be alarmingly heavy for cloth.

[Arcanist]

Now tell me does the bag of holding fit in the pocket or not? Simple yes or no question.

You can honestly answer this question by saying can you carry around a 15lbs bowling ball in your pocket? If no then no you can't fit a bag of holding in your pocket if yes then yeah sure go for it :smalltongue:

[Little Brother]

Completely irrelevant.Perfectly relevant. The item is on his person, and the rogue cannot get to him. I'd call that a win.

Just answer the question: Is Class Feature a game term. I'll be the judge of whether its related or not :smalltongue:Yes. A game term that has nothing to do with Miindsight

Hey, this wizard is currently astrally projecting from his custom Demiplane created by his genesis trap,I was thinking scrolls and lilitu, but that works too.

as he is PB a Succubus to pleasure himI doubt any powerful wizard really has a libido. Distraction could prove lethal. The wizard might have mindraped it out of himself, really. But, even ignoring that, seriously, I mean, boning a succubus(Or incubus) would be risky. There's the squick factor first, as it's basically arcane rape, and anyways, Succubus wouldn't take it kindly, I'd think, and has a level drain touch? Yeah, you'd need to be stupidly careful to the point of not being able to enjoy it.
while he is taking time out of his day to have his Astral projected form stand next to a random rogue who is trying to steal the focus and the other replicasThe rogue is trying to sneak up him, yes?
that are currently permanently shrunken do to the size of a dust mite and are currently floating around in his blood streamHow?
... So sure he can also have a Codpiece of Holding that weighs half a pound... Did I mention that this Codpiece of holding has extra smaller pockets in it that function as Codpiece of holdings so effectively his Codpiece has infinite space on it...wut.

This Wizard? PERFECTLY NORMAL! :smallbiggrin::smallconfused:

[ryu]

You mean in my robe pocket which is physically larger and more durable than most bowling ball bags and fits snugly between my left arm and torso? Sure let's do this.

[Arcanist]

Yes. A game term that has nothing to do with Miindsight

Neat so Wizard's don't qualify for Mindsight to begin with because the prerequisites for Mindsight are "Telepathy special quality." but since Mindbenders telepathy is of course a Class feature and NOT a special quality they can't have it :smalltongue:


I was thinking scrolls and lilitu, but that works too.

I honestly figured that is how everyone did it :smallconfused: basically the same as a Wish trap :smalltongue:


I doubt any powerful wizard really has a libido. Distraction could prove lethal. The wizard might have mindraped it out of himself, really. But, even ignoring that, seriously, I mean, boning a succubus(Or incubus) would be risky. There's the squick factor first, as it's basically arcane rape, and anyways, Succubus wouldn't take it kindly, I'd think, and has a level drain touch? Yeah, you'd need to be stupidly careful to the point of not being able to enjoy it.

...You cannot be serious...


The rogue is trying to sneak up him, yes?

The Wizard apparently knows he's coming since Mindsight tells him that he's there :smalltongue:


How?

The Wizard claps his hands twice and hums the tune to Yellow Submarine and it just happens duh :smalltongue:


wut.

You read that correctly


:smallconfused:

I've stopped taking you seriously at this point because... LOL by your logic ever wizard that can take a feat (and 2 flaws and so on and so forth) can cast 9th level spells just because :smalltongue: they also have every single spell ever or an arcane variant in there spell book just by virtue of being a Wizard :smallamused:

[Kazyan]

I think discussing optimization levels would help, here. Obviously a high-OP Wizard is a god, whereas a high-OP rogue is merely the most annoying being on the planet. A low-OP wizard against a low-OP rogue is a tossup. Just saying "can a Rogue steal from a Wizard" doesn't help if we don't define Rogue or Wizard better; there's gonna be a difference between how Rich and Tippy play, after all.

Now: How high-OP does the wizard have to be before he can screw over the equally optimized rogue? LPB/Nightmare/Genesis is clearly high enough. Do we have to go down to Batman Illusionist, Focused Specialist Evoker, or Diviner?

[Invader]

Forget it Arcanist,

The wizard is just going to have a giant pocket where he keeps 500lbs of fake statuettes, 20 separate BoH's to confuse people and an astral stalker with a +20 spot and +20 listen just to keep an eye on things.

The rogue obviously doesn't have a chance...

[Averis Vol]

think you forgot your blue text there. :smalltongue:

[Arcanist]

Forget it Arcanist,

The wizard is just going to have a giant pocket where he keeps 500lbs of fake statuettes, 20 separate BoH's to confuse people and an astral stalker with a +20 spot and +20 listen just to keep an eye on things.

The rogue obviously doesn't have a chance...

This was all performed at level 1 with minimal effort god forbid the wizard achieves level 2, he might just become so unchallenged that the only thing possible for him to fight would be Mystra herself and he'd barely be getting any XP.

[Invader]

think you forgot your blue text there. :smalltongue:

You're right :smallwink:

[Little Brother]

Neat so Wizard's don't qualify for Mindsight to begin with because the prerequisites for Mindsight are "Telepathy special quality." but since Mindbenders telepathy is of course a Class feature and NOT a special quality they can't have it :smalltongue:That's absurd. The class feature grants the special quality. Just like feats/spells can grant special qualities. It ain't that complex, bro.

I honestly figured that is how everyone did it :smallconfused: basically the same as a Wish trap :smalltongue:Meh, I guess.

...You cannot be serious... I am completely serious. Which is more important to you, your life, power, or sex. You only get two. The wizard is in the big leagues. He has to be careful at all times. Sex leaves you vulnerable, and gives you an unnecessary weakness. I highly doubt any self-respecting god-wizard has a libido.

The Wizard apparently knows he's coming since Mindsight tells him that he's there :smalltongue:So why doesn't he just teleport out? Or invis and walk away?

The Wizard claps his hands twice and hums the tune to Yellow Submarine and it just happens duh :smalltongue::smallconfused:

You read that correctly Wut.

I've stopped taking you seriously at this point because... LOL by your logic ever wizard that can take a feat (and 2 flaws and so on and so forth) can cast 9th level spells just because :smalltongue: they also have every single spell ever or an arcane variant in there spell book just by virtue of being a Wizard :smallamused:Have you actually read any of the spells. How intelligent is a wizard? If he is intelligent enough to be able to cast 9s(Or really even 5s), he has to be smart enough to know how it works.

I don't expect him to have every spell. Just all the good ones.

They can cast 9s by having 5s. LPB=9s. Elf Domain Generalist has 9s, anyways. Any illumian at low-mid levels can have 9s.

Unless you want me to assume the wizard in here is chums with the local fighter's guild, and owes some meatshield his life or something. Or maybe this one donated his spell book to charity and decided to go back to being a dirt farmer.