[nWoD] Blood Tenebrous - What can I do with it?

[Aron Times]

Blood Tenebrous is a unique discipline that allows vampires to interact with spirits without having to join a bloodline or covenant or both. It's considered a non-clan discipline for all clans, so it costs 7 * new dots to increase.

So, what can I do with Blood Tenebrous?

The first dot lets me sense spiritual activity. The second dot lets me turn vitae into essence. The third dot lets me travel to the Hisil, while the fourth dot lets me take others with me. The fifth dot lets me merge with a spirit, giving me access to its Numina plus some improved stats.

Any ideas?

[Selrahc]

I've not read the discipline, but it looks like it's pretty obvious what you can do with it. Spiritual access is a powerful tool. Particularly in a game where the majority of your foes won't have access to it. 2 dots lets you start bargaining with spirits and spirits can do almost anything(although unlike a mage or werewolf, I imagine it is harder to find the spirits that are unusual). 3 dots gives you easy access and escape from any location. 4 dots lets you do that with a coterie of allies.

5 dots looks very powerful, but I imagine there are some limits on it.

[not_warlock]

The drawback is that you have dependence in the Storyteller. You could find a solar or fire spirit anytime...:smalleek:

[CET]

Agreed. I think the utility of this discipline depends a whole lot on the game and the ST.

If the ST is really into spirits being a major part of the game, it will be fairly powerful. The Werewolf and (to a lesser extent Mage) books have a lot of examples of how spirits can impact the real world, and how influence with spirits can be a powerful tool. In a way, it sounds like this discipline allows a vampire to interact with spirits on the same level that werewolves or a powerful mage might.

But, if the ST is pretty much just running the game from VtR and the corebook, and isn't really into the whole spirits/spiritrealm part of WoD, the discipline is going to be pretty useless.

[Aron Times]

Well damn. Is it really that obscure? I'm guessing the Book of Spirits isn't that popular of a splatbook? One would think that it'd be mandatory for players of Werewolf and/or Mage...

[Aron Times]

Alright, just read through the fluffy portions of the Book of Spirits instead of simply skipping to the crunch in Chapters 3 and 4. It seems that Blood Tenebrous is indeed very powerful in a game where spirits are involved, like the two crossover games I'm playing in, though I only want to get Blood Tenebrous in one of them.

I now understand how powerful Blood Tenebrous 2 is. Essence is hard to come by for those that use it, while vitae is a near-infinite resource in large cities. It is balanced, however, by the Willpower requirement. You spend 1 WP and roll Strength + Occult + BT. Each success lets you convert 1 vitae into 1 essence, so the better you roll, the more Essence you can bribe spirits with.

I know next to nothing about Werewolf and Mage, so am I right about Essence being a more limited resource than vitae?

[CET]

It might depend a little on the game, but in general, I'd say yes. Essence is more of a hot commodity than vitae. But I'm starting to like this idea more and more . . . (see end)

The best way for Werewolves to get essence is generally from a locus. In general (but depending on the ST) loci are both rare and coveted, so you usually have to own one (and fight constantly to protect it), or be very close to someone else who does.

My take on the mythos is that it's a little different for spirits, since they have a sort of ecology that allows the minor ones to subsist on minute amounts of essence as it is being generated (like algae-feeders in a sense), and they get eaten by larger spirits and so on. I don't recall if that is the canonical version though.

Since a vampire can usually top up pretty easily, the ability to convert large amounts of vitae to essence and then sell it off to spirits would be relatively powerful. But, I think this is balanced by the usual caveats of dealing with spirits - they are under no obligation to like you, and the more powerful they are, the more they tend to think of you as food or a pawn. The neonate who converts a bunch of vitae to essence and then tries to summon a powerful spirit is going to be in for a painful surprise if they succeed.

Also - if vitae to essence conversion is possible, I could imagine someone else using that to their own advantage. Say, a spirit (or werewolf pack) that preys on vampires, or a powerful mage that uses a captive vampire like an essence battery - feed it, convert to essence, drain to near torpor, repeat.

[The Glyphstone]

Also - if vitae to essence conversion is possible, I could imagine someone else using that to their own advantage. Say, a spirit (or werewolf pack) that preys on vampires, or a powerful mage that uses a captive vampire like an essence battery - feed it, convert to essence, drain to near torpor, repeat.

They'd need the vampire's consent though, since Blood Tenebrous is a Discipline that it needs to voluntarily activate. Somehow, I don't see that being likely in either of the above scenarios (maybe a Mind mage).

[Aron Times]

Well, there is the WP requirement. You need to spend WP to activate Blood Tenebrous 2, and you can only convert one vitae per success rolled. If you roll no successes, you just blew a WP for nothing. For my physical-tertiary Ventrue, I have Strength 2 and Occult 2. When I get Blood Tenebrous 2, I get six dice to roll, for an average of two successes.

Curiously, Blood Tenebrous 5 only requires 1 vitae instead of 1 WP. The spirit you're going to merge with also has to spend 1 essence, though, so if it's unwilling to do so, you'll have to use Blood Tenebrous 2 to give it some to spend, so I guess it balances out.

P.S.

Blood Tenebrous 3 feels a lot like the mirror that lets you switch worlds in The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past. And you get +1 to the dice pool if you look at a reflective surface, so the vampire in question can bring along a "magic mirror" to increase his chances of shifting to either world.

[CET]

They'd need the vampire's consent though, since Blood Tenebrous is a Discipline that it needs to voluntarily activate. Somehow, I don't see that being likely in either of the above scenarios (maybe a Mind mage).

True. I was thinking less about the specific discipline power and more that the existence of such a power would indicate that it is possible to convert vitae to essence. A sufficiently motivated mage or wolfpack could (potentially, depending on the GM's comfort with that degree of extrapolation) work out their own way to make the conversion.

[The Glyphstone]

True. I was thinking less about the specific discipline power and more that the existence of such a power would indicate that it is possible to convert vitae to essence. A sufficiently motivated mage or wolfpack could (potentially, depending on the GM's comfort with that degree of extrapolation) work out their own way to make the conversion.

They could, but in both cased it'd probably be enough hassle that they would be better off gathering essence the 'normal' way for their respective venues.

[not_warlock]

How does Blood Tenebrous 5 works?

[Aron Times]

You make the activation roll and have to get 5 successes per spirit rank. For example, if you want to merge with a rank 3 spirit, you have to get 15 successes on an extended activation roll. Afterwards, you merge with the spirit, and you act as one entity.

For every 3 points the spirit has in Power, Finesse, and Resistance, rounded down, you add 1 to a power attribute, a finesse attribute, and a resistance attribute. For example, if the spirit has Power 6, Finesse 5, and Resistance 9, you can distribute 2 points among your power attributes (Strength, Intelligence, Presence), 1 point among your finesse attributes (Dexterity, Wits, Manipulation), and 3 points among your resistance attributes (Stamina, Resolve, Composure).

Next, you gain access to the spirit's Numina and its essence pool. I'm AFB right now so I'm not sure if you also gain access to its Influences, but I think you do. If you merge with an electricity spirit with Blast, for example, you can conjure lightning bolts with which to attack your foes. If you've merged with a hospital spirit with the Healing numen, you can heal with a touch.

The drawback is that the spirit gains access to your bodily functions and your disciplines, and if it wants to do something you don't want it to, or if you want to do something it doesn't want you to, you have to make a contested roll against it to win.

Generally, it's dangerous to merge with higher-ranked spirits (rank 3 to 5) as they tend to have inhumanly high stats and might wrest control from your character.

[Selrahc]

They could, but in both cased it'd probably be enough hassle that they would be better off gathering essence the 'normal' way for their respective venues.

I don't know... If you've got a vampire ally, it is really easy to get them vitae. A wolf only takes 15 minutes to recover from the lethal damage caused by the vampire bite. Essence is a lot harder to come by.

So a werewolf pack on the outs has been kicked out of their territory, lost their last locus. They make a deal with a local tenebrous vampire. Once a week they go around to the vampires haven, let him feed on them enough to fully charge up, and he gives them some essence.

Sounds like an interesting plot point for a werewolf game. That pack that everybody thought was an insignificant presence starts throwing around serious juice, spending essence in combat to fuel powers and healing like its candy. How will the other packs and the players react when they learn that the wolves have gotten their power by debasing themselves as food for a vampire?

[The Glyphstone]

I don't know... If you've got a vampire ally, it is really easy to get them vitae. A wolf only takes 15 minutes to recover from the lethal damage caused by the vampire bite. Essence is a lot harder to come by.

So a werewolf pack on the outs has been kicked out of their territory, lost their last locus. They make a deal with a local tenebrous vampire. Once a week they go around to the vampires haven, let him feed on them enough to fully charge up, and he gives them some essence.

Sounds like an interesting plot point for a werewolf game. That pack that everybody thought was an insignificant presence starts throwing around serious juice, spending essence in combat to fuel powers and healing like its candy. How will the other packs and the players react when they learn that the wolves have gotten their power by debasing themselves as food for a vampire?

Oh, that'd work great, I was talking more about the idea of the 'captive vampire' that was originally brought up.

[Necroticplague]

In terms of Essence, it would work incredibly well since IIRC, werewolf blood actually has a very high damage:vitae, something in the realm of 7 point of vitae per point of damage. Although, if also also recall, doing so also starts giving penalties to resist frenzy, so the vampire doing this would go berserk at the drop of a hat.

[Morty]

In terms of Essence, it would work incredibly well since IIRC, werewolf blood actually has a very high damage:vitae, something in the realm of 7 point of vitae per point of damage. Although, if also also recall, doing so also starts giving penalties to resist frenzy, so the vampire doing this would go berserk at the drop of a hat.

It's not quite as good, I'm afraid. Only 2 points of Vitae per health level.

[Aron Times]

It's not quite as good, I'm afraid. Only 2 points of Vitae per health level.

2.5 vitae per lethal wound, actually. So you get 5 vitae per 2 lethal you deal to the werewolf.

HOWEVER, the vampire has a penalty to Frenzy checks for 2 nights per wound he deals to the werewolf. If he deals 2 lethal to the wolf (5 vitae), he gets a penalty to Frenzy checks for 4 nights, regardless of whether the werewolf blood remains in his system or not.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

2.5 vitae per lethal wound, actually. So you get 5 vitae per 2 lethal you deal to the werewolf.

HOWEVER, the vampire has a penalty to Frenzy checks for 2 nights per wound he deals to the werewolf. If he deals 2 lethal to the wolf (5 vitae), he gets a penalty to Frenzy checks for 4 nights, regardless of whether the werewolf blood remains in his system or not.

But if he's constantly around an entire pack of werewolves who are his allies, pretty certain they could incapitate/restrain him when he frenzies. I mean, werewolves are pretty tough.

[TheCountAlucard]

But if he's constantly around an entire pack of werewolves who are his allies, pretty certain they could incapitate/restrain him when he frenzies. I mean, werewolves are pretty tough.If they do, they'll have just wasted all the blood they gave him, as the Beast will burn through it without a second thought.

[Selrahc]

Just take the penalty to frenzy. It's fine for the plot.