Challenge: taking down Boccob

[Mego]

Challenge in 3 flavors

Challenge 1: Take out Boccob (Deities And Demigods) with four lv 20 characters. You can use any abuse in the game as long as it is not an infinity loop.

Challenge 2: Take out Boccob, with four lv 20 characters. You can use any abuse in the game as long as it is not an infinity loop. You are not allowed to take any tier 2 PrC from sonofzeal's ranking (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0).

Challenge 3: Take out Boccob, with four lv 20 characters. You can use any abuse in the game as long as it is not an infinity loop. You are not allowed to take any tier 2 or tier 1 PrC from sonofzeal's ranking (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0).

Sources must be manuals only (no magazines).

Enjoy :smallsmile:

[killianh]

Free pandorum from Elder Evils; kill's all of the gods.

outside of that of course I'n not too sure. between class levels, outsider hit die, and divine ranks Boccob is running somewhere in the area of a CR 70 at the very least

[Alleran]

I'm pretty sure that this is nigh-impossible. Boccob has full casting, Craft Artifact, Alter Reality, Arcane Mastery, Avatar and Spontaneous Wizard Spells in his SDA list. He also knows you're coming seventeen weeks before you arrive (if you do anything involving spellcasting, item use, spell-like ability use or magic item creation), and has all those weeks to prep for a confrontation (assuming he doesn't just spam avatars at you until you go down).

I think Tippy came up with a tactic to create an invincible character (involving Aleax abuse), but short of that, I don't think it can be done unless you infinite loop your way to Pun-Pun.

[Mango Eldar]

I think the real challenge is that he sense all spell casting 17 weeks before it happens. I notice that his portfolio doesn't let him sense supernatural abilities before they are used, maybe that can be abused somehow?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

go kill a "weakling" god from the same book, and get their Divine Rank? Rinse and repeat until you can compete, possibly by getting other more powerful gods to help you out once you get said divine rank.

Thats pretty much the only way, i think. Even then your builds would have to be 100% optimized. I mean, most of the gods in that book are level 40 ish. Plus the divine ranks and deity abilities previously mentioned, like Alter Reality, etc.

The most interesting and usable thing in that book was that there were some Elves in Valhalla or something with Finesse: Longsword. Dev mistake? probably. Relevant to anything at all? Not at all.

[Azernak0]

Honestly, I don't see it happening. 17 weeks preparation time is simply too difficult to overcome. It would be like if Jim said he was going to break into your house at this time in 4 months. You would have enough time to make traps that would put Home Alone to shame. Or, you know, call the police or something.

[marcielle]

4 PC plan:
1. Seed of discord
Jumplomancer - Become best buds with all the gods. Convince them that Boccob is crazy and dangerous(NOT A LIE as many see him as such and you are obviously one if you wanna go to the trouble of god-slaying).IIRC many gods don't like him already.

2. The frame
Factotum - A series of take 20s and using your + class level on forgery and use all appropriate resources to boost it into epic. None of the gods have a single rank in the skill to counter it. Have several incriminating scrolls detailing orders from Boccobs most prominent worshippers to destroy rival dieties important temples, artifacts, people. Pass them on to 1/place at sites 3 goes to.

3.Assassin
Needs Vecna-blooded/ to worship an Elder Evil. Archivist,StP Erudite,Cleric or similar non arcane Tier 1. Simply needs to destroy random god's temples, people, artifacts, etc. and then dissapppear beyond all retrieval, eg walking into a bag of holding and then haveing that bag destroyed. He must stay in there and cast no arcane spells until after plan is complete.

4. My magic missile is a zombie
Necropolitan ubercharger - 1 hit KO Boccob while the other gods are distracting him.

For Challenges 2 and 3, any powerful enough meelee might be sufficient to replace the assassin but a being a mundane attacking powerful stuff carries it's own risk
1 and 2 cannot directly cast any arcane spells. 3 Might not matter if Vecna and your elder evil work how I think they do.

[StreamOfTheSky]

My friends and I always agreed. Were we to start off on a deicide, Vecna would be the first to go, because he's both weak and no one likes him much, so they'd just laugh Nelson-style as we kill him.

Boccob would be the LAST guy we try to mess with, if we kill him at all. Not only because he's a wizard. Also because he's "uncaring." As long as we didn't do anything in our path of killing the other gods to directly irritate or bother him, he would be the one god we could count on to NOT join forces to fight against us. Why make more enemies than you need to? And if we did go after him...how does that look to the remaining gods? Boccob is as removed as they get; for the bunch of god-slaying psychos to seek him out to kill, only proves how irredeemably crazy we are, and would almost surely hasten the inevitable "divine team up" against us.

Bad idea. Just a really bad idea...

[grarrrg]

He's sending you hidden messages through his music, man!!
If you play his name backwards it's "boccoB", man!!
Subliminal messages, man!!

He's trying to, like, twist your brain, man!!

Ok, I really have nothing to add, man!!

[VGLordR2]

Be a Hengeyokai (Sparrow) with at least 18 strength. Find 600 one-pound rocks. An 18 strength character can lift twice his maximum load off of the ground. Pick up the rocks. Change into your sparrow form. This causes all of your rocks to meld into your body, just like your other equipment. Fly 1,400 feet above Boccob and turn into your hybrid form, dropping the rocks. Each rock will deal 20d6 damage from falling. Multiply that by 600, and you have 12,000d6. Is an average of 42,000 no-save damage enough to slay Boccob?

I don't actually know; I don't have his statblock.

[Alleran]

My friends and I always agreed. Were we to start off on a deicide, Vecna would be the first to go, because he's both weak and no one likes him much, so they'd just laugh Nelson-style as we kill him.
He's actually one of the strongest of them, thanks to his SDAs. And, you know, he knows every secret ever. Including that you're planning on deicide. And Vecna-blooded won't stop it.

[Mango Eldar]

Ok, here's an idea for challenge 1. Here's what you need.


A dwarven cleric
A bard with maxed out bluff and diplomacy.
A Wu Jen that can perform my TO abuses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13394909#post13394909).


Cast Body Outside Body three times in order to create 15 clones. Boccob will sense this immediately but this should not be cause for concern as this is simply a level 20 caster using some of his 7th level spells, not exactly a universe threatening event. If he decided to investigate every wizard in the multiverse who decided to cast some 7th level spells he would indeed be a busy and paranoid god.

Use the skill scaling trick (outlined in the linked thread) to grant your bard a hundred odd ranks in bluff and diplomacy. This is a supernatural ability, not a spell, so Boccob will not sense this.

Have your Cleric use Miracle to request an audience with Moradin (this should be within the capacity of 20th level characters). Again, Boccob will sense this and again this should not be cause for concern. Deities deal with their highest level followers regularly, in fact many have such high demand on their attention that they need to create Avatars to handle more than one such meeting at a time.

Have your bard use his astronomically high diplomacy to request that Moradin use his powers to block out the senses of gods of lower ranks. If other gods knew about this it might create some suspicion around the pantheon but I dont think gods are aware that this is happening unless they specifically try to use their abilities to find something and realize that they cant. Also, I doubt that the gods all form alliances and go to war every time this happens.

Request that Moradin call for an audience with Corellon (the only other God with a divine rank high enough to be immune to the sense blocking event).

Use your astronomically high bluff to convince the two deities that destroying Boccob is in their interest. If necessary bring more god's into the alliance using the method until you feel you have the firepower to take down big purple.

[Mego]

Use your astronomically high bluff to convince the two deities that destroying Boccob is in their interest. If necessary bring more god's into the alliance using the method until you feel you have the firepower to take down big purple.

Hmmmm... that might actually work!! Well done man. This is my favorite answer for challenge 1 so far. I was also a big fan of your TO abuse post, some brutal brutal stuff in there.

[moritheil]

Each rock will deal 20d6 damage from falling. Multiply that by 600, and you have 12,000d6. Is an average of 42,000 no-save damage enough to slay Boccob?


Rocks fall, Boccob dies? :smalltongue:

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

You would think as a god and a wizard he would set up contingencies to deal with would-be assassins.

[Kazyan]

Be a Hengeyokai (Sparrow) with at least 18 strength. Find 600 one-pound rocks. An 18 strength character can lift twice his maximum load off of the ground. Pick up the rocks. Change into your sparrow form. This causes all of your rocks to meld into your body, just like your other equipment. Fly 1,400 feet above Boccob and turn into your hybrid form, dropping the rocks. Each rock will deal 20d6 damage from falling. Multiply that by 600, and you have 12,000d6. Is an average of 42,000 no-save damage enough to slay Boccob?

I don't actually know; I don't have his statblock.

This isn't going to work. In response, Boccob casts Celerity and Reverse Gravity, and then because he's a Greater Diety, he chooses the d20 result of all of the sparrow's reflex saves. They're 1s, by the way.

[VGLordR2]

This isn't going to work. In response, Boccob casts Celerity and Reverse Gravity, and then because he's a Greater Diety, he chooses the d20 result of all of the sparrow's reflex saves. They're 1s, by the way.

You need an Immediate Action to cast Celerity. You can't use an Immediate Action when flat-footed. He will need to make a spot check at a -140 penalty to see the sparrow. If he fails, he cannot see you, and therefore is flat-footed. No Celerity, no Reverse Gravity.

[Kazyan]

You need an Immediate Action to cast Celerity. You can't use an Immediate Action when flat-footed. He will need to make a spot check at a -140 penalty to see the sparrow. If he fails, he cannot see you, and therefore is flat-footed. No Celerity, no Reverse Gravity.

Good point.

Here's the other defense: Boccob says all of the rocks roll minimum damage of 20. I don't have his stablock either, but that most likely fails to get through his DR.

[moritheil]

You need an Immediate Action to cast Celerity. You can't use an Immediate Action when flat-footed. He will need to make a spot check at a -140 penalty to see the sparrow. If he fails, he cannot see you, and therefore is flat-footed. No Celerity, no Reverse Gravity.

You think Boccob walks around without Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm) up? :smallconfused:

[VGLordR2]

You think Boccob walks around without Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm) up? :smallconfused:

Okay, I give up. I still think I did pretty well, considering it's one level one character.

[moritheil]

Okay, I give up. I still think I did pretty well, considering it's one level one character.

I'm not saying you didn't, just that greater deities are made to be hard to kill, and greater deities of magic even more so. :smallsmile:

[Waker]

You need an Immediate Action to cast Celerity. You can't use an Immediate Action when flat-footed. He will need to make a spot check at a -140 penalty to see the sparrow. If he fails, he cannot see you, and therefore is flat-footed. No Celerity, no Reverse Gravity.

Senses for a creature with at least 1 Divine Rank extend a distance equal in miles. Boccob takes no range penalties to Listen/Spot checks within 17 miles. As a Greater Deity with 71 in Spot, he automatically gets 91.
Of course this is presuming that he has no contingencies cast either.

Just for amusement, the closest thing to falling speed detailed on the SRD under Tactical Aerial Movement and on pg94 of the Manual of the Planes caps at 300ft/round, giving Boccob more than ample time to see the massive boulder hurtling towards him.

[SaintRidley]

He probably doesn't care what happens so long as he gets to be left alone with his magic.

So, um... I guess become more powerful and distract him with new spells to play with?

[Namfuak]

Boccob has an * that says that he always receives a 20 on saves, but it doesn't specifically say that he then auto-succeeds, so I'm going to go under the assumption that he does not. So, his fort save is always 78.

If someone can find a way to make a cleric that gets ninth level spells that can get a 9th level spell up to a save of 79, Eternity of Torture (Pain domain, BoVD) would effectively "take down" Boccob (though it would not kill him). It doesn't specifically say that it imprisons or banishes the target, so it should get around his immunities.

[Kazyan]

Boccob has an * that says that he always receives a 20 on saves, but it doesn't specifically say that he then auto-succeeds, so I'm going to go under the assumption that he does not. So, his fort save is always 78.

They're natural 20s, so of course he automatically succeeds. He actually gets to choose the result of the die. Nat 20s for him, nat 1s for you.

[Arcanist]

Tippy on "How To Kill A God" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12959325&postcount=115)

There you go :smalltongue:

[Waker]

Boccob has an * that says that he always receives a 20 on saves, but it doesn't specifically say that he then auto-succeeds, so I'm going to go under the assumption that he does not. So, his fort save is always 78.

If someone can find a way to make a cleric that gets ninth level spells that can get a 9th level spell up to a save of 79, Eternity of Torture (Pain domain, BoVD) would effectively "take down" Boccob (though it would not kill him). It doesn't specifically say that it imprisons or banishes the target, so it should get around his immunities.

And due to his portfolio, he knows someone is going to cast this at him in 17 weeks. At that point he can be proactive and kill the person or use Alter Reality to duplicate and counter the spell.

[Kallisti]

I can't post the entire stat block here because Deities and Demigods isn't OGC, but here are some important points for people without access. I was going down the stat block as I wrote this, so in a few places a comment would later be obviated by something even scarier.

-Boccob is a Wizard 20/Cleric 20. He gets to cast those cleric spells spontaneously because he's a cleric of Boccob, and he gets to cast those wizard spells spontaneously because Spontaneous Wizard Spells. He is actually Schrödinger's Wizard.

-Boccob has 60 hit dice and 820 hit points.

-Boccob has AC 79 (+17 Divine, +8 Dex, +30 Natural and +14 deflection), Initiative +12 (+8 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative), and saves of +58/+59/+60.

-Boccob always receives 'the best possible result' on die rolls. Between this and the fact that his Attack line notes that he always rolls a twenty but you should roll to confirm the crit normally, I think that confirms that his twenties are indeed natural twenties. So he will automatically pass any saving throw or attack roll, and since his 'best possible results' are not limited to attack, damage, saves and skill checks he will get the most favorable result in random effects and will pass any miss chance of less than 100%.

-He has Abilities in the mid-to-high twenties except his Int 50, but he's immune to ability damage and drain. Is there a way to inflict substantial ability burn or otherwise circumvent those immunities? Twenty-four Strength damage would make his day suck a whole lot, at least. He also has Wis 29, which might be important because it's his secondary casting stat.

-His skills include +100 to just about every knowledge ever, including knowledge (religion) and knowledge (undead) as separate items. He has Concentration +83, Hide +71, Listen +56, Search +80, Sense Motive +59, Spellcraft +127, and Spot +71.

-His feats include every core Item Creation feat and every Core metamagic feat, including Maximize Spell which he could never conceivably need. He has no non-core feats. He has Reach Spell and Sacred Spell listed, which I don't think are core.

-He's immune to ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind-affecting, paralysis, poison, sleep (but only as the spell, judging by the italics), stunning, transmutation (including, presumably, Transmutation buffs since no exception is noted), imprisonment, and banishment. He also has Fire Resistance 37, DR 52/+4, SR 69.

-He has a massive slew of Spell-like Abilities at CL 27, CL 28 for Divination effects. Save DCs are 36 + Spell Level. Highlights include Antimagic Field, 'Change Self' (3.0 Disguise Self, I think), Foresight, Imbue with Spell Ability, Invisibility, Mislead, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Plane Shift, Polymorph Any Object, Spell Turning, Teleport Without Error, Time Stop, and True Seeing.

-And now the really fun stuff: the god powers!

In addition to the bothersome 'always best possible result of rolls' thing, he can see, hear, touch and smell everything within seventeen miles of himself, any of his worshipers, holy sites or objects, or any place where his name or one of his titles was spoken within the last hour. He can be actively sensing twenty locations at once. He also senses all magic use (spellcasting, item use, spell-like ability use, or item crafting; supernatural abilities (and psionics?) are indeed excluded) seventeen weeks in advance and lasting until seventeen weeks after the event. He can similarly sense the discovery, recording, or sharing of any spell or 'bit of arcane knowledge', any prophecy or prediction of the future regardless of accuracy (thus including, by the strictest interpretation, any attempt to plan ahead or guess what will occur), and any event that 'alters the balance of good, evil, law and chaos in the cosmology'.

He can Alter Reality to mimic any spell 9th or less as a Standard action (DC, if applicable, 46 regardless of spell level) including any non-Epic metamagic feat, but if he does he has to rest for one round per metamagic level he adds and he can't Quicken with Alter Reality. He can Alter Reality to make a magical or supernatural effect permanent, to completely reshape the landscape to 'any type of terrain the deity can imagine' in ten-foot cubes (one round per cube and one day of rest for each such cube).

He can, as a free action, change his size to whatever he wants. Specifically, anywhere from a grain of sand to 1600 feet tall. He can also make this alteration to items that originally weigh up to 100 pounds.

He automatically Quickens, Silences and Stills all of his Wizard spells if desired, at no cost.

He can summon up to twenty Avatars. The Avatars only have Divine Rank 8, so no auto-twenties, but they do get to Quicken all Wizard spells and are Wiz 20/Clr 20, so expect to see at least 42 spells per round. They do not share his Alter Reality ability, but can Alter Size and have all of his spell-like abilities, including Foresight, PaO and Time Stop. He can sense through his avatars, although they do count against his limit. It takes a year to create a new avatar, but it's at least implied he's got the full complement of twenty ready to go at the start.

He can seize direct control of any creature with spells or spell-like abilities. This is not a mind-affecting effect, somehow. He can control up to seventeen with one standard action, and can control up to 170 at once. He needs Line of Sight, but not necessarily Line of Effect. You get a DC 36 will save, and a new save if commanded to do anything against your nature. Given that he can spam this all day long with effectively no consequences, I'd expect him to have all one-hundred-seventy slots filled with a variety of nasties. So an army of Epic dragons, maybe? Just lots and lots and lots of Tier 1 casters? Also, all twenty Avatars have this power.

He also has the Divine Creation ability, so given a full-round action, he can make any magic item or any creature. The magic items can't be artifacts, but there's no GP limit, only weight and volume limits (1700 pounds, 240 cubic feet). He has to rest for ten minutes times creature's HD including class levels times creature's CR. No rest periods for items, so he can mass-manufacture those pretty quickly.

He can ignore the standard caps in magic item creation. Combined with the Divine Creation lack-of-GP-limit, this basically lets him conjure a magic item that casts every spell in the game at will. Not that he necessarily needs one with his army of one-hundred-seventy mind-controlled and his twenty Avatars. But it's one more reason to be scared of him.

He can create force fields and shoot death rays. Both powers are actually kind of weak, but I just felt it bore mentioning. The challenge presented to us is to kill a god who has a death ray.

He can counter spells as a free action, up to twenty per round. So can his avatars.

He gets spell slots above 9th level, for even more metamagic shenanigans: 4/4/4/3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2, ranging from 10th to 20th.



So we won't be facing Boccob alone; we'll be facing Boccob, any creatures he's seen fit to create, his 170 mind-controlled minions, his twenty Avatars, and their eighty mind-controlled minions apiece. Boccob and all twenty Avatars get Foresight, Timestop, PaO, and twenty free-action counterspells per round.

I notice that his senses aren't as frightening as they seem at a glance. He can sense any spellcasting, but it's not automatic; spellcasting is competing for his attention with his holy places, his worshipers, his name, his Avatars, all forms of prognostication, and all major Alignment events. He can only focus on twenty things at once, including his own location. So hypothetically you could still get the drop on him if he never had any reason to pay special attention to your pings on his mental radar. I don't think the Avatars get Portfolio Sense. If he misses the initial event (including his seventeen weeks of forewarning), he can still view it up to seventeen weeks after.

So presumably the first step to bringing down Boccob is to get him very, very distracted. Throwing the balance of the planes into chaos would probably count as a major Alignment event; we need our distraction to last thirty-four weeks if we want to be absolutely sure. Of course, this means he has thirty-four weeks of prep time, but he'll be prepping for the wrong thing. He and the Avatars still get spontaneous casting, but at least the magic item/creature creation and the selection of mind-controlled minions may be off.

Honestly, though, I think the best plan is still the one where we build diplomancers and have them turn the rest of the pantheon against him. Gods can jam each others' portfolio senses if they're of equal or greater divine rank, so we could circumvent the seventeen-week-forewarning thing. Gods who can jam Boccob: Corellon Larethian (2 locations, 19 hours), Garl Glittergold (2 locations, 18 hours), Moradin (2 locations, 19 hours), Nerull (2 locations, 17 hours, vulnerable to Boccob's jamming), Pelor (2 location, 17 hours, vulnerable), Yondalla (2 locations, 18 hours).


Nat 20s for him, nat 1s for you.

I only see the deity's own dice mentioned under Divine Characteristics. Can you source this?

[Slipperychicken]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like a being with 50 Int, countless millenia to prepare, and knowledge of all magic will have found Tippy's combo (found in less than 10 years, and I assume, perhaps foolishly, that Tippy's intellect would be represented by a number under 50. Sorry for doubting you, man :smalltongue:) long before our Party's ancestors ever existed, will probably know the initial stages of anything that could kill him, and would quash it long before it became a threat.

[Waker]

I notice that his senses aren't as frightening as they seem at a glance. He can sense any spellcasting, but it's not automatic; spellcasting is competing for his attention with his holy places, his worshipers, his name, his Avatars, all forms of prognostication, and all major Alignment events. He can only focus on twenty things at once, including his own location. So hypothetically you could still get the drop on him if he never had any reason to pay special attention to your pings on his mental radar. I don't think the Avatars get Portfolio Sense. If he misses the initial event (including his seventeen weeks of forewarning), he can still view it up to seventeen weeks after.

Actually sensing the spellcasting is kinda automatic. He has the 17 mile awareness, it's just his passive range of awareness. Perceiving anything within his holy blah blah is an active use of his awareness.
But here is the kicker. He has the salient ability See Magic, which functions like Detect Magic, allowing him to sense and identify (as a free action) any magical auras within 17 miles.

[Kazyan]

I only see the deity's own dice mentioned under Divine Characteristics. Can you source this?

Source: my faulty memory of the SRD description of greater deities. It's wrong.

[Bucky]

So presumably the first step to bringing down Boccob is to get him very, very distracted.

Setting 21 different plots to kill him into motion at the same time should do the trick.

[Kallisti]

Actually sensing the spellcasting is kinda automatic. He has the 17 mile awareness, it's just his passive range of awareness. Perceiving anything within his holy blah blah is an active use of his awareness.
But here is the kicker. He has the salient ability See Magic, which functions like Detect Magic, allowing him to sense and identify (as a free action) any magical auras within 17 miles.

I got the impression Portfolio Sense was bound by the limit on his senses.



He can extend his senses to up to twenty locations at once.

If only his direct senses are included in that limit, not the Portfolio Senses, then that's ...bad. He still can't sense (Su) or (Ex), though. Or, arguably, psionics. If Psionics don't trigger the Portfolio Sense, we can use Spell-To-Power Erudite to get the drop on him.

Not that it will do a lot of good. I'd expect, since he can create magic items without caring about petty rules and game balance, he'd have every buff spell that can be stacked active, all at once, all day every day. I know one of the posters here, douglas, set up a party to do that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138). It was pretty scary.

If we don't have Epic spells because we're a twentieth-level party, then we can't use Tippy's god-killing guide and we can't create Epic spells to ruin Boccob's day.


Although it does occur to me to wonder: Boccob can sense our spellcasting, but can he sense our intent? He gets Detect Thoughts as a spell-like, but his portfolio sense doesn't read minds, so unless we give ourselves away by trying to prophecy how he can be brought down he wouldn't necessarily know we're gearing up to kill him, just that we're gearing up. He is a god; presumably he has better things to do than panic every time a high-level party starts buffing up.

[Waker]

You would be correct that he wouldn't automatically sense Su or Ex abilities. Psionics are fair game however due to the Psionic/Magic Transparency rules. If a character has any buffs, magic items or access to spellcasting and they come within 17 miles of Boccob, he can automatically detect and identify what they have on them.
Yeah, Boccob is definitely one of the harder deities to pick a fight with. He isn't a God Wizard, but rather a Wizard God. Even if we figured out a way to deny his senses or very temporarily distract him, we'd still have fun overcoming his many contingencies.

[Kallisti]

You would be correct that he wouldn't automatically sense Su or Ex abilities. Psionics are fair game however due to the Psionic/Magic Transparency rules. If a character has any buffs, magic items or access to spellcasting and they come within 17 miles of Boccob, he can automatically detect and identify what they have on them.
Yeah, Boccob is definitely one of the harder deities to pick a fight with. He isn't a God Wizard, but rather a Wizard God. Even if we figured out a way to deny his senses or very temporarily distract him, we'd still have fun overcoming his many contingencies.

I always forget whether transparency is the default, since every DM's psionics policy is different.

Is there some kind of Artifact-level AMF generator out there? The Annulus, maybe? Anything that gets around typical anti-AMF tricks. Or, failing that, how can we get Boccob to visit the Spire and/or tick off the Lady? I think we could get the drop on him if need be. I don't think we can kill him unless we turn off the magic.


Also. It occurs to me that the most difficult deity to kill is probably Hades, because his portfolio sense is triggered by death. You kill Hades. He dies. Seventeen weeks ago, Hades becomes aware of his own death and uses Mass Life and Death to kill you. Seventeen weeks prior, Hades sees himself Mass Life and Death you, so he just does it now. Seventeen weeks prior, Hades sees himself Mass Life and Death you, so he just does it now. Seventeen weeks prior, Hades sees himself Mass Life and Death you, so he just does it now. Seventeen weeks prior, Hades etc. You were never actually born.

[Little Brother]

Boccob is too gibberingly insane to do anything.

There are an infinite number of solars. They each prep their cleric spells every morning. He's aware, what, 17 weeks forward and back? 239 days of infinite numbers doing stuff in his brain. Plus, anything else like that? Yeah, no. I don't care how brilliant/alien/superior he is. that kind of thing cannot be good for his brain.

So, I don't think he's much of a threat.

[Arcanist]

Boccob is too gibberingly insane to do anything.

There are an infinite number of solars. They each prep their cleric spells every morning. He's aware, what, 17 weeks forward and back? 239 days of infinite numbers doing stuff in his brain. Plus, anything else like that? Yeah, no. I don't care how brilliant/alien/superior he is. that kind of thing cannot be good for his brain.

So, I don't think he's much of a threat.

I remember reading someone post that the reason the gods rarely do anything is because they are so busy in therapy :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

Boccob is too gibberingly insane to do anything.

There are an infinite number of solars. They each prep their cleric spells every morning. He's aware, what, 17 weeks forward and back? 239 days of infinite numbers doing stuff in his brain. Plus, anything else like that? Yeah, no. I don't care how brilliant/alien/superior he is. that kind of thing cannot be good for his brain.

So, I don't think he's much of a threat.

I count being insane as a factor in his favor. He's literally a crazy Wizard God with base Int 50, able to think so far outside of the box he's practically in the Far Realm. In my copy of Deities and Demigods, Big B functions just fine, so he's clearly able to comprehend infinity, however many catgirls are slaughtered in the process.

Besides, if that were RAW, this kind of thinking would have killed the Omniscificer long ago, and he knows literally everything, ever. I kind of like that guy :smalltongue:

[Little Brother]

I count being insane as a factor in his favor. He's literally a crazy Wizard God with base Int 50, able to think so far outside of the box he's practically in the Far Realm. In my copy of Deities and Demigods, Big B functions just fine, so he's clearly able to comprehend infinity, however many catgirls are slaughtered in the process. It only functions fine because Deities and Demigods was an extremely poorly written book. Like, the gods are the definition of unoptimized. They're near Tarrasque levels of incompetence, and only function due to inherently high specs.

Also, I really hate infinity maths.

Besides, if that were RAW, this kind of thinking would have killed the Omniscificer long ago, and he knows literally everything, ever. I kind of like that guy :smalltongue:Never said it wouldn't. He might be able to autohypnosis himself or something, though. Boccob looks SoL.

[marcielle]

I'm surprised noone's ripped my plan apart yet. Do the gods have a special way of recognizing a forgery is a forgery if noone else knows? I suppose Zone of truthing the framed might help but when quickened mindrape is a a finger's snap away, that might not count for much.

[kabreras]

I'm surprised noone's ripped my plan apart yet. Do the gods have a special way of recognizing a forgery is a forgery if noone else knows? I suppose Zone of truthing the framed might help but when quickened mindrape is a a finger's snap away, that might not count for much.

They have ways to read your mind so your punny paper is no match if you tend to lie, most good gods will just do a zone of truth on you that you wont be able to resist and you will tell them the truth

[marcielle]

There, that's what I'm talking about. Anyway, the forger will never have to meet the gods. The forgeries are left at sites of destruction/ near Boccobs favored. I know mindrape can be reversed with a miracle but what about programed amnesia/psionic equivalent without transparency? They just need a blank spot left in their heads around the time of destruction. I know the mother of all demons can cause memory loss without chance of recovery.

[kabreras]

There, that's what I'm talking about. Anyway, the forger will never have to meet the gods. The forgeries are left at sites of destruction/ near Boccobs favored. I know mindrape can be reversed with a miracle but what about programed amnesia/psionic equivalent without transparency? They just need a blank spot left in their heads around the time of destruction. I know the mother of all demons can cause memory loss without chance of recovery.

Fact is that a god will never trust any peice of paper.
If the destructions are huge i bet they tiggle some portfolios and so the gods with the related portfollios know what happened... Before it happened.

And considered that boccob himself have foresight and balance in his portfollio and that ploting against him is a major balance changing thing i bet that you trying to do that will tend to end up being turned to dust quite fast.

[Mego]

I think so far Mango has the best answer for Challenge 1. Any takers on challenges 2 and 3?

[Kallisti]

I think so far Mango has the best answer for Challenge 1. Any takers on challenges 2 and 3?

Challenges 2 and 3 just ban PrCs. Since Mango's solution requires only base classes--Bard, Cleric, Wu Jen--his solution still applies.

[marcielle]

The forgeries are just to draw the attention of the gods in a way more subtle than 'hey look these guys Boccob likes did some bad stuff'. Heck The gods themselves might never even look at the stuff. If their followers look at it and ping their gods then thats good enough. And about the portfolio sense, I'm not sure if the gods are pinged about what's happening or just know something about their portfolio is happening. Assuming, even gods can't keep track of evvery single ping, Vecna blooded perpetrator and a permanent mindwipe would subtly cast doubt on Boccob. Not sure if mindwipes last past death. Maybe instead of a wipe, find some way to get the framed down to the chaotic/ neutral hells?

[moritheil]

Boccob is too gibberingly insane to do anything.

There are an infinite number of solars. They each prep their cleric spells every morning. He's aware, what, 17 weeks forward and back? 239 days of infinite numbers doing stuff in his brain. Plus, anything else like that? Yeah, no. I don't care how brilliant/alien/superior he is. that kind of thing cannot be good for his brain.

I don't see why it would necessarily matter. It's not like he has to have human (or even humanlike) thought processes.

[Little Brother]

I don't see why it would necessarily matter. It's not like he has to have human (or even humanlike) thought processes.Well, his portfolio sense would be useless. He physically can't sort through infinite numbers, regardless of how deificly awesome his brain is.

And I still think his brain should explode.

[Telonius]

My favored tactic is not to go against the god directly. You don't need a high enough forgery DC to fool the gods. You just need a high enough forgery DC to fool all their mortal servants. No followers = weak god.

[Mango Eldar]

Challenges 2 and 3 just ban PrCs. Since Mango's solution requires only base classes--Bard, Cleric, Wu Jen--his solution still applies.

My solution uses the Void Disciple PrC, so it cant be used for challenges 2 and 3.

[marcielle]

@ Telonius - That's sorta what I'm getting at. But instead of directly taking away followers via attacking sensibilities, the forgeries are intended to put Boccob's followers in a VERY bad light. Like, worse than Vecna or Wee Jas. Vecna might automatically know about this but I assume the god of secrets KEEPS secrets unless it benefits him not to. And besides, its not like wizards going crazy with power is rare or anything, just need to pick targets carefully.

Vecna blooded should stop any MAGICAL attempts to 'find the perpetrator'. And who happens to be the man in charge of magic? The hard part will be creating a small time of irretrievable lost memory but I remember there is precedence for it. Something about a shrouded mother of all demons. Time barely needs to be a few rounds. After all, it only takes an incantatrix/ ultimate magus 6 seconds to cast maximized heighten Timestop.

[ThiagoMartell]

Well, his portfolio sense would be useless. He physically can't sort through infinite numbers, regardless of how deificly awesome his brain is.

Uh... why?

[Kallisti]

My solution uses the Void Disciple PrC, so it cant be used for challenges 2 and 3.

Still, the basic idea of using Diplomacy/Bluff to make the other gods kill him stands.

...or, since the Epic Level Handbook provided rules for using Diplomacy to change someone's attitude to such a level that they'd gladly die for you, we just Diplomacy Boccob directly; he gives our party wizard his Divine Ranks, magic items, whatever else and then we just kill him. Even if we can't get him to give up his godhood, with an attitude of Fanatic we could at least get him to drop his defenses.

[rweird]

...or, since the Epic Level Handbook provided rules for using Diplomacy to change someone's attitude to such a level that they'd gladly die for you, we just Diplomacy Boccob directly; he gives our party wizard his Divine Ranks, magic items, whatever else and then we just kill him. Even if we can't get him to give up his godhood, with an attitude of Fanatic we could at least get him to drop his defenses.

You can only get him to friendly, Fanatic is a mind effecting effect. He's immune.

[Lapak]

There's also the factor that you can't dodge his awareness just by muddling his Divine Senses with manufactured crises or sticking to non-threatening behavior until you've got a Greater God on your side. He's a top-level caster with no XP or material component limitations and no reason not to enjoy a bowl of Divination Flakes for breakfast every morning. "Are any mortals planning my destruction?" If your entire party that contains a Forger/Diplomancer/whatever isn't shielded 24/7 against divine-strength Divinations, he's going to get you even if you didn't do anything in particular to draw his attention.

[Little Brother]

Uh... why?Because infinities are infinite. Does his brain have infinite processing power? Is his intelligence infinite?

[rweird]

@ Little Brother: If there are an infinite number of things he senses, yes. You can take infinite actions in a round, why don't you burn up from friction? The answer, because there are no rules for it. There are no rules that state a limit to that, there is no limit to how much you can think in one round. If we are going by how D&D would make sense, there wouldn't be magic, there wouldn't be a god of magic because of these things, however saying that he can take 20 free actions per round involving knowledge checks, spellcraft, etc. means that he can, despite all the portfolio senses, skill can think.

[Endarire]

If you kill Boccob, what happens? All I hear is, "The day... the magic died!"

[rweird]

Someone casts True Resurrection on him after killing you and everything returns to normal excepts Boccob makes an artifact that makes him immune to whatever killed him previously. If you trap his soul, another god probably would take it and resurrect Boccob, seriously, I doubt the dead of a god would last long unless you can kill all the gods, or at least all the good/neutral ones.

[Arcanist]

If you kill Boccob, what happens? All I hear is, "The day... the magic died!"

Boccob has never exhibited the ability or power for that matter to control magic in the slightest. Your thinking of Mystra... I am however curious what would happen in a deific spell dual between the The Lady of Mysteries, the Muse, the Mother of All Magic, Our Lady of Spells Vs The Uncaring, Lord of All Magics, the Archmage of the Deities

Ah well... thats just another dream I suppose... :smallamused:

[TypoNinja]

If you kill Boccob, what happens? All I hear is, "The day... the magic died!"


I always thought killing Mystra would make magic stronger. It seems to me a dieity of magic would spend most of her time making sure nobody broke reality, or blew up another entire kingdom.

Mystra would be why spells stop at 9th level, the reason there isn't yet a pun pun (She's come and and bitch slapped anybody who's tried), why there isn't an evil wizard some where chain gateing himself into godhood.

Basically all the really egregious TO stuff that the cannon characters never try hasn't happened because Mystra serves as the IC version of DM when you get crazy. She hits you with a sourcebook.

[Arcanist]

=>TypoNinja

I always thought killing Mystra would make magic stronger. It seems to me a dieity of magic would spend most of her time making sure nobody broke reality, or blew up another entire kingdom.

Mystra has died 3 times and in all 3 circumstances the following happened:


The first time was when Karsus performed his first and last casting of Karsus' Avatar, the most powerful spell ever created in the history of Dungeons and Dragons. When Karsus casted this spell he gained control over magic however due to the sudden influx of knowledge Karsus had realized what he had done, Karsus had the skill with magic, the power, and the knowledge, however he lacked the ability to control the one key factor of all magic through out Toril. The Weave... Karsus lacked control of the weave and this almost destroyed it which would have just turned Toril into a Dead Magic plane... Mystryl as she was called at the time made the ultimate sacrifice and ended her own life... for a total of 5 minutes all magic on Toril effectively ceased and in that time: An Empire fell and a great magical beast of good was corrupted to evil. However, not all was last as Mystryl imparted her divinity in an heir and so the Weave was protected and remained undisturbed til the time of trouble...

Bane and Myrkul, ever curious in finding out Ao, the Highgod's source of power succeed in stealing the Tablet of Fate, Ao angered by this theft called all the gods to his side and demanded that the theif come forth, when no one came forth Ao casted all the god out and sent them to search Toril for the Tablet, save for Helm whom was ordered to defend the Stairway to Heaven. Mystra, Mystryl's successor feeling her precious weave fall to pieces approached the Stairway and requested to pass, Helm responded justly and steadfast in his duties... When Mystra tried to force her way in Helm defended himself and slayed her quickly... all Magic for a short while was disrupted and all spells, magical items, etc became wild and unpredictable (excluding those reliant on the Shadow Weave). After the Tablet was recovered by a band of adventurers the Heroes were rewarded with Divinity and so Mystra's Heir, a women named Midnight became the 3rd incarnation of the Lady of Mystery...

Her last death is a little bit harder to explain but here is what I'll give you... A secret plot between Shar and the recently elevated to deityhood Cyric and for the Death of Mystra, Shar gifted Cyric with a cloak that would hide him from all gaze, even that of a deities, forcing his way into Dweomoheart, Cyric assassinated Mystra and due to Mystra's death her Divine realm was also destroyed casting out multiple gods out of the heavens. Savas was killed in the destruction of Dweomoheart, and the god Azuth was casted into the Ninth layer of Baator where his Divinity was consumed by Asmodeus elevating him to godhood... The Spellplague was released and magic was changed...


In one campaign however because my group hated 4th edition we made all spells effected by the spellplauge instead become impede spells and we were allowed access to old 10th+ spells we created like forever ago... was awesome man :smallsmile:


Mystra would be why spells stop at 9th level, the reason there isn't yet a pun pun (She's come and and bitch slapped anybody who's tried), why there isn't an evil wizard some where chain gateing himself into godhood.

Actually the reason why Evil Wizards in Toril don't chain gate themselves to godhood in toril is because even Ioulaum (the guy who effectively knows everything) doesn't know exactly how divinity works so why should anyone else? I'm confident Evil Wizards have tried to figure out how divinity works but they just can't, it is a closely guarded secret by Ao and the Gods. Divinity in Toril works by 3 Factors: You need the approval of Ao, you need to be worshiped by a hundred to a thousand followers, and you need to possess an inherit Divine Spark gifted by a Divine parent. You need 2 out of 3 to become a God in Toril.


Basically all the really egregious TO stuff that the cannon characters never try hasn't happened because Mystra serves as the IC version of DM when you get crazy. She hits you with a sourcebook.

Actually the IC version of the DM is Ao, Mystra is just an extension of that will...

I had a lot of fun with this :smallsmile:

[Little Brother]

@ Little Brother: If there are an infinite number of things he senses, yes. You can take infinite actions in a round, why don't you burn up from friction? The answer, because there are no rules for it. There are no rules that state a limit to that, there is no limit to how much you can think in one round. If we are going by how D&D would make sense, there wouldn't be magic, there wouldn't be a god of magic because of these things, however saying that he can take 20 free actions per round involving knowledge checks, spellcraft, etc. means that he can, despite all the portfolio senses, skill can think.You appear to not understand the difference between arbitrarily high and infinite.

[Kazyan]

The number of things Boccob has to deal with is referred to as a countable infinity--as in, you can make a counting scheme so that, for every instance in the infinity, there's a finite amount of counting you have to do to get around to it.

You can make a counting scheme that eventually gets around to every single whining Solar--for example, by creating concentric spheres around a point in Elysium (or whichever plane), answering everyone currently whining in that sphere, then expanding the sphere one foot and repeating, until forever.

If Boccob can do everything in his counting method as a free action, then he can deal with an infinite amount of whining.

I think it follows that Boccob should to have a countable infinity of mental processing power, unless there's an infinitely powerful autofilter that comes with Divine Rank 1 or something. Oddly, he has finite Intelligence.

[Little Brother]

The number of things Boccob has to deal with is referred to as a countable infinity--as in, you can make a counting scheme so that, for every instance in the infinity, there's a finite amount of counting you have to do to get around to it.

You can make a counting scheme that eventually gets around to every single whining Solar--for example, by creating concentric spheres around a point in Elysium (or whichever plane), answering everyone currently whining in that sphere, then expanding the sphere one foot and repeating, until forever.

If Boccob can do everything in his counting method as a free action, then he can deal with an infinite amount of whining.It doesn't matter. He still can't reach the infinity, IIRC, though I do admit I haven't brushed up on set theory in ages...

I think it follows that Boccob should to have a countable infinity of mental processing power, unless there's an infinitely powerful autofilter that comes with Divine Rank 1 or something. Oddly, he has finite Intelligence.He could only have an infinitely powerful brain like that, he'd need an infinite intelligence.

[rweird]

@Little Brother: Can you show me a rule that states that you can think afinite amount per turn? I don't think onexists, I understand between arbitrarily high and infinite, however rules don't have anything that says you cannot think about infinite things. I understand your point thouhg it hasno basis in rules. I don't see what you are arguing about, if it is common sense, I see your point, though I don't think it should work, I beleive his portfolio sense gives him the ability to comprohend it, and there is no rule stating he can't.

[Kazyan]

It doesn't matter. He still can't reach the infinity, IIRC, though I do admit I haven't brushed up on set theory in ages...

He could only have an infinitely powerful brain like that, he'd need an infinite intelligence.

Coming from a total dilettante--so you should look this up for yourself--it works because there's no infinity to reach.

Basically, Boccob has to pick a point. And you're a random Solar who wants his Miracle. There has to be a finite distance between you and the point (this is the part that's hard to wrap your head around; if you want more explanation, ask.) So, he'll eventually get to you. The line is infinitely long, but no one has a lemniscate on their take-a-number.

Boccob still goes bonkers without an infinifilter, though.

[TypoNinja]

=>TypoNinja


Mystra has died 3 times and in all 3 circumstances the following happened:


The first time was when Karsus performed his first and last casting of Karsus' Avatar, the most powerful spell ever created in the history of Dungeons and Dragons. When Karsus casted this spell he gained control over magic however due to the sudden influx of knowledge Karsus had realized what he had done, Karsus had the skill with magic, the power, and the knowledge, however he lacked the ability to control the one key factor of all magic through out Toril. The Weave... Karsus lacked control of the weave and this almost destroyed it which would have just turned Toril into a Dead Magic plane... Mystryl as she was called at the time made the ultimate sacrifice and ended her own life... for a total of 5 minutes all magic on Toril effectively ceased and in that time: An Empire fell and a great magical beast of good was corrupted to evil. However, not all was last as Mystryl imparted her divinity in an heir and so the Weave was protected and remained undisturbed til the time of trouble...

Bane and Myrkul, ever curious in finding out Ao, the Highgod's source of power succeed in stealing the Tablet of Fate, Ao angered by this theft called all the gods to his side and demanded that the theif come forth, when no one came forth Ao casted all the god out and sent them to search Toril for the Tablet, save for Helm whom was ordered to defend the Stairway to Heaven. Mystra, Mystryl's successor feeling her precious weave fall to pieces approached the Stairway and requested to pass, Helm responded justly and steadfast in his duties... When Mystra tried to force her way in Helm defended himself and slayed her quickly... all Magic for a short while was disrupted and all spells, magical items, etc became wild and unpredictable (excluding those reliant on the Shadow Weave). After the Tablet was recovered by a band of adventurers the Heroes were rewarded with Divinity and so Mystra's Heir, a women named Midnight became the 3rd incarnation of the Lady of Mystery...

Her last death is a little bit harder to explain but here is what I'll give you... A secret plot between Shar and the recently elevated to deityhood Cyric and for the Death of Mystra, Shar gifted Cyric with a cloak that would hide him from all gaze, even that of a deities, forcing his way into Dweomoheart, Cyric assassinated Mystra and due to Mystra's death her Divine realm was also destroyed casting out multiple gods out of the heavens. Savas was killed in the destruction of Dweomoheart, and the god Azuth was casted into the Ninth layer of Baator where his Divinity was consumed by Asmodeus elevating him to godhood... The Spellplague was released and magic was changed...


In one campaign however because my group hated 4th edition we made all spells effected by the spellplauge instead become impede spells and we were allowed access to old 10th+ spells we created like forever ago... was awesome man :smallsmile:



Actually the reason why Evil Wizards in Toril don't chain gate themselves to godhood in toril is because even Ioulaum (the guy who effectively knows everything) doesn't know exactly how divinity works so why should anyone else? I'm confident Evil Wizards have tried to figure out how divinity works but they just can't, it is a closely guarded secret by Ao and the Gods. Divinity in Toril works by 3 Factors: You need the approval of Ao, you need to be worshiped by a hundred to a thousand followers, and you need to possess an inherit Divine Spark gifted by a Divine parent. You need 2 out of 3 to become a God in Toril.



Actually the IC version of the DM is Ao, Mystra is just an extension of that will...

I had a lot of fun with this :smallsmile:

Thanks, that was awesome. I have a reply but it's kind of offtopic. I'll make a new thread with my thoughts (if you don't beat me to it) when I have some spare time.

[Little Brother]

@Little Brother: Can you show me a rule that states that you can think afinite amount per turn? I don't think onexists, I understand between arbitrarily high and infinite, however rules don't have anything that says you cannot think about infinite things. I understand your point thouhg it hasno basis in rules. I don't see what you are arguing about, if it is common sense, I see your point, though I don't think it should work, I beleive his portfolio sense gives him the ability to comprohend it, and there is no rule stating he can't.But the PHB/DMG says that people act like they normally would, and unspecified rules simulate life. Thus, he has no infinitifier, and so, since he perceives an infinite number of things 18 weeks ahead and behind, he either cannot use it, from being unable to deal with it, is in a constant seizure, or is stark raving mad.

Coming from a total dilettante--so you should look this up for yourself--it works because there's no infinity to reach.

Basically, Boccob has to pick a point. And you're a random Solar who wants his Miracle. There has to be a finite distance between you and the point (this is the part that's hard to wrap your head around; if you want more explanation, ask.) So, he'll eventually get to you. The line is infinitely long, but no one has a lemniscate on their take-a-number.

Boccob still goes bonkers without an infinifilter, though.But there are an infinite number of solars/Etc.

I HATE infinities. SO MUCH!

[Kazyan]

But there are an infinite number of solars/Etc.

I HATE infinities. SO MUCH!

Let's put this another way: what's the ratio of answered solars to unanswered solars?

(Don't worry about that feeling you have; something's odd if the question doesn't break your brain.)

I'll get back to this tomorrow, when it's not late.

[INDYSTAR188]

Thanks, that was awesome. I have a reply but it's kind of offtopic. I'll make a new thread with my thoughts (if you don't beat me to it) when I have some spare time.

I'm really looking forward to this! :smallsmile:

[Arcanist]

I'm really looking forward to this! :smallsmile:

As am I, I am a major fan of Realmslore :smallamused: I do however wish that I had an Nook so I could get and download all the Forgotten Realm books.

[maximus25]

You don't even have to fight Boccob directly.

A god is nothing without his followers right?

Diplomancer, go around to all his temples and figure out every single person that worships him. Make them fanatics to you. They cannot worship him any longer. Gods need followers, he has none, he disappears or dies. I think.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

What is to stop Boccob denying magic to everything and saying that magic would return if these people are kill.

[Arcanist]

What is to stop Boccob denying magic to everything and saying that magic would return if these people are kill.

A lack of ability to actually do so :smallconfused: Nothing lorewise, or by RAW allows Boccob to perform such an act.

Mystra however can perform such an action, however only against creatures that channel the power of the Weave (Such as Wizards and Sorcerers native the Abeir-Toril). Now this leaves me the wonderful question of: If a Wizard native to Abeir-Toril and a Wizard native to Oerth switch places will they lose there respective abilities to cast spells? :smallamused: by RAW no, but fluff wise yes they would...

Cross setting encounters make me wonder if writers actually consider the consequences of there writing... Like for example:
What if House Cannith managed to create a Mythallar around the same time as the Creation Forge?
What if the Larloch got his hands on a Creation forge?
What if the Nether Scrolls where discovered in Kyrinn?

Questions like these inspire campaigns :smallamused:

[Alleran]

Mystra however can perform such an action, however only against creatures that channel the power of the Weave (Such as Wizards and Sorcerers native the Abeir-Toril). Now this leaves me the wonderful question of: If a Wizard native to Abeir-Toril and a Wizard native to Oerth switch places will they lose there respective abilities to cast spells?
The Weave only exists, IIRC, in Realmspace proper and in Dweomerheart (Mystra's godly domain, which includes the domains of Azuth, Savras and I think Velsharoon as well). As long as you're not in one of those places, then her Deny Weave SDA shouldn't have any effect. For example, the Astral. Or Ethereal. Or any other Outer Plane. Or Inner Plane. Or the Plane of Shadow. Or another Crystal Sphere (e.g. Oerth).

And no, they wouldn't lose their respective abilities, or shouldn't. Torilian spellcasters have the Weave as a safety net. Without it, raw magic is simply too powerful for any individual to use safely beyond the mildest of cantrips, since it would make your brain explode. So the Weave acts as a buffer, allowing spellcasters to access raw magic without going kablooey. There are other magical systems on Toril that accomplish the same purpose, such as "Table Magic" (among others, such as the Shadow Weave). The Weave is just the "simplest and cleanest" method of doing so, as well as the most efficient. Without the Weave, you lose access to magic unless you can create an entirely new system (or switch over to a new system) that will allow you your power again. Conveniently, the Weave functions in the same fashion as regular magic for places like Oerth, so methods of access for the Weave will work there. You'll just be without the safety net (but since you don't need it, you shouldn't run into any difficulty).

EDIT: Also, Mystra and Boccob have probably met at some point. I seem to recall that Mystra shares a friendly relationship with Wee Jas, so it makes sense that she'd have met Boccob once or twice.

[Popertop]

=>TypoNinja


Mystra has died 3 times and in all 3 circumstances the following happened:


The first time was when Karsus performed his first and last casting of Karsus' Avatar, the most powerful spell ever created in the history of Dungeons and Dragons. When Karsus casted this spell he gained control over magic however due to the sudden influx of knowledge Karsus had realized what he had done, Karsus had the skill with magic, the power, and the knowledge, however he lacked the ability to control the one key factor of all magic through out Toril. The Weave... Karsus lacked control of the weave and this almost destroyed it which would have just turned Toril into a Dead Magic plane... Mystryl as she was called at the time made the ultimate sacrifice and ended her own life... for a total of 5 minutes all magic on Toril effectively ceased and in that time: An Empire fell and a great magical beast of good was corrupted to evil. However, not all was last as Mystryl imparted her divinity in an heir and so the Weave was protected and remained undisturbed til the time of trouble...

Bane and Myrkul, ever curious in finding out Ao, the Highgod's source of power succeed in stealing the Tablet of Fate, Ao angered by this theft called all the gods to his side and demanded that the theif come forth, when no one came forth Ao casted all the god out and sent them to search Toril for the Tablet, save for Helm whom was ordered to defend the Stairway to Heaven. Mystra, Mystryl's successor feeling her precious weave fall to pieces approached the Stairway and requested to pass, Helm responded justly and steadfast in his duties... When Mystra tried to force her way in Helm defended himself and slayed her quickly... all Magic for a short while was disrupted and all spells, magical items, etc became wild and unpredictable (excluding those reliant on the Shadow Weave). After the Tablet was recovered by a band of adventurers the Heroes were rewarded with Divinity and so Mystra's Heir, a women named Midnight became the 3rd incarnation of the Lady of Mystery...

Her last death is a little bit harder to explain but here is what I'll give you... A secret plot between Shar and the recently elevated to deityhood Cyric and for the Death of Mystra, Shar gifted Cyric with a cloak that would hide him from all gaze, even that of a deities, forcing his way into Dweomoheart, Cyric assassinated Mystra and due to Mystra's death her Divine realm was also destroyed casting out multiple gods out of the heavens. Savas was killed in the destruction of Dweomoheart, and the god Azuth was casted into the Ninth layer of Baator where his Divinity was consumed by Asmodeus elevating him to godhood... The Spellplague was released and magic was changed...


In one campaign however because my group hated 4th edition we made all spells effected by the spellplauge instead become impede spells and we were allowed access to old 10th+ spells we created like forever ago... was awesome man :smallsmile:



Actually the reason why Evil Wizards in Toril don't chain gate themselves to godhood in toril is because even Ioulaum (the guy who effectively knows everything) doesn't know exactly how divinity works so why should anyone else? I'm confident Evil Wizards have tried to figure out how divinity works but they just can't, it is a closely guarded secret by Ao and the Gods. Divinity in Toril works by 3 Factors: You need the approval of Ao, you need to be worshiped by a hundred to a thousand followers, and you need to possess an inherit Divine Spark gifted by a Divine parent. You need 2 out of 3 to become a God in Toril.



Actually the IC version of the DM is Ao, Mystra is just an extension of that will...

I had a lot of fun with this :smallsmile:

Not gonna lie, when 4th edition came out, the people that introduced me to D&D ranted about how terrible it was, so I came up with an alternate history for our games to take place in after that and had this big huge idea about an epic campaign... can't exactly talk about it in case anyone on here ever participates in it, but yeah it draws on the old deific myths and all that stuff.

[Arcanist]

=>Alleran

The Weave only exists, IIRC, in Realmspace proper and in Dweomerheart (Mystra's godly domain, which includes the domains of Azuth, Savras and I think Velsharoon as well). As long as you're not in one of those places, then her Deny Weave SDA shouldn't have any effect. For example, the Astral. Or Ethereal. Or any other Outer Plane. Or Inner Plane. Or the Plane of Shadow. Or another Crystal Sphere (e.g. Oerth).

That is true/makes sense and yes its Velsharoon. :smallsmile:


And no, they wouldn't lose their respective abilities, or shouldn't. Torilian spellcasters have the Weave as a safety net. Without it, raw magic is simply too powerful for any individual to use safely beyond the mildest of cantrips, since it would make your brain explode. So the Weave acts as a buffer, allowing spellcasters to access raw magic without going kablooey. There are other magical systems on Toril that accomplish the same purpose, such as "Table Magic" (among others, such as the Shadow Weave). The Weave is just the "simplest and cleanest" method of doing so, as well as the most efficient. Without the Weave, you lose access to magic unless you can create an entirely new system (or switch over to a new system) that will allow you your power again. Conveniently, the Weave functions in the same fashion as regular magic for places like Oerth, so methods of access for the Weave will work there. You'll just be without the safety net (but since you don't need it, you shouldn't run into any difficulty).

I've never heard of Table Magic... Hmm... I'm contemplating doing a Planescape campaign where magic functions differently depending on if your in Toril, Oerth, Ebberon, and Kyrnn, however since magic effectively functions the same all across the prime material then i guess that is livable. :smallsmile: thank you for clearing that up for me.


EDIT: Also, Mystra and Boccob have probably met at some point. I seem to recall that Mystra shares a friendly relationship with Wee Jas, so it makes sense that she'd have met Boccob once or twice.

Ah that was mentioned in "On Hallowed Ground" (I Googled it), I suppose deified adventures should span across the entire multiverse and not just a specific crystal sphere :smallconfused: well thats fine I suppose :smallamused:

=>Popertop

Not gonna lie, when 4th edition came out, the people that introduced me to D&D ranted about how terrible it was, so I came up with an alternate history for our games to take place in after that and had this big huge idea about an epic campaign... can't exactly talk about it in case anyone on here ever participates in it, but yeah it draws on the old deific myths and all that stuff.

I never played 4th edition because I could never wrap my head around it, the fluff, the spellcasting system, it all just felt so sluggish to me... Spellcasting in the forgotten realms is supposed to be... Idk more magical then the way 4th edition captured it...

Lets face it, 4th edition ruined the realms :smallfrown: Ioulaum wasn't even mentioned... :smallfrown: however I guess that is what you get for turning yourself into a giant elder brain lich... Like seriously, He is a 41th level caster with friken 20th level manifesting [Telepathy], he's not losing any fights to anyone... ever... mostly because he is singing "Anything you can do I can do better" one day I wish to properly stat out Ioulaum instead of leave it out based on whatever Lords of Darkness gave us :smallannoyed:

But I digress, I apologize for derailing this thread but lets get back on topic.

how can our fine OP defeat Boccob, I honestly recommend abusing the divine spire, none of his divine abilities work there meaning anything that would trigger his portfolio sense that happens around there is negated... :smallamused:

[TypoNinja]

I'm really looking forward to this! :smallsmile:

My promised split off.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13426794#post13426794

Also as far as the infinite argument goes, its not a problem, Deities and Demigods specifies that granting spells takes no effort from the deity in question. You are just there, and the source being tapped, all the effort comes from the prayer and preparation from your worshiper.

[rweird]

He's immune to mind effecting effects. I'm pretty sure him going mad frim sensory overload is mind effecting.

[TuggyNE]

He's immune to mind effecting effects. I'm pretty sure him going mad frim sensory overload is mind effecting.

But is it an effect?

Devil's advocate here, but seriously.

[rweird]

Why wouldn't it be?

[kabreras]

He is a god.
Just stop thinking he have the same reasoning and mind possiblities as everyone else...
HE IS A FREAKING GOD.
And god of knowledge to add.