House Rules Sanity Check

[daemonaetea]

I'm currently working on putting together a campaign to run in the (hopefully) near future. One of the things I'm currently working out are the house rules I'll be using. I was hoping some of you might look them over, to see if there's anything that strikes you as particularly bad or potentially troublesome. Some of them are my own ideas, others are taken from other house rules I've seen, whether in games I've played or on here.

I appreciate your help. Anything within parentheses are my comments and explanations for these rules.

EDIT: You all have already given me some great feedback! I've posted an updated version of my house rules, taking your feedback into account, in a post below. The updated version is in the Spoiler block below the original house rules.

Some 3.5 house rules

1) PC’s are made by point-buy method.

Base score in each stat starts at 8, and you get 32 points to improve this.
Point costs are as follows:
(Standard point buy chart follows)

You apply racial modifiers after setting all stats.

2) The core races are modified as follows: Half-elfs get either a bonus feat at 1st or 1 extra skill point per level, as per a human. Half-orcs take either a -2 to Int or -2 to Cha, not both.

3) Any official source book is (provisionally) ok, with the caveat that I am free to veto anything. Homebrew is (provisionally) barred, with the caveat that I am free to allow on a limited bases. All character choices and decisions should be cleared prior to starting the game. In addition, I’m willing to work with you to allow modifications to classes in certain circumstances. Case in point: the Hierophant prestige class from the DMG. There is absolutely no reason it doesn’t advance casting at all. I’d be quite happy to allow spell casting at certain levels of the class.

(The group I game with mostly sticks to core. I'd really like a chance to run a game with a wide and varied set of classes, spells, and feats.)

4) No xp penalty for multi-classing.

(Multi-classing is half the fun!)

5) Max hit points + 3 at 1st level. Max minus 1 every other level (d4=3, d6=5, d8=7, d10=9, d12=11).

(I don't like a single roll to have long term mechanical consequences. Same reason I don't like rolling for HP.)

6) You die at negative your con stat, not negative 10.

(For mainline fighters, those most likely to die from massive damage, this makes high level combat slightly less splattery.)

7) The mechanics of the Diplomacy skill are replaced by those described at the following link: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html

(Overall I prefer using rules to discretion. I don't want to just ignore the diplomacy rules and handwave those rolls, I'd prefer to have actual rules for how to handle them.)

8) The mechanics of the Heal skill are modified as follows:

Healer’s Kit: Price reduced to 25 G. Still has 10 charges, still gives +2 bonus.
First Aid (DC 15): Heals 1 damage for every point the check exceeds 15. Can be performed once per combat the character has been in since last healing or last fully healed, or once per day. Requires using 1 charge of the Healer’s Kit, which is used whether the healing is successful or not.
Treat Injury (DC 25): Heals 1 point of ability damage. Usable once per day. Requires using 2 charges of the Healer’s Kit, which is used whether the healing is successful or not.
Revive (DC 30): This two-round action must begin within one round of a character dying. It brings said character who died back to one less HP than would result in that character’s death. Requires using 5 charges of the Healer’s Kit, which are used whether the healing is successful or not.

(I'd like to make the Heal skill relevant, and to give mundanes an actual way to cure.)

8) Every character receives 2 more skill points per level (8 more at first level) than normal for their class. This is applied after all other modifiers are taken into account (so a low Int character will always have a minimum of 3 skill points per level, not 1). To give you something to use this on, every character also may choose two skills not on their starting list of class skills. These skills will always be treated as class skills by that character, and each must have a minimum of 3 ranks upon starting the game. These are not meant to be chosen for power, but for flavor. For instance, your Fighter may have grown up around the docks and thus have Profession(Sailor) as a class skill. Or, if his father was a wizard, he might even have Spellcraft.

(I like characters to have mechanical backup for fluff, and yet I don't want to penalize characters who actually do.)

9) Every character also receives one extra bonus feat at first level. This, like the extra skill points, is meant to allow extra flavor, not power. Your Fighter’s extra feat should not be Cleave. Rather, it could be Animal Affinity, to show his love of animals, or Lightning Reflexes, to show how he’s always been quick on his feet. This feat is meant to be something that, in the normal course of things, you probably wouldn’t take, but fits the character background you’re thinking of. Or, possibly, help you think of. For instance: Why exactly did your Fighter come to have ranks in Linguistics and Knowledge(Dungeoneering), and why is he so skilled at running away (Run feat)?

(Same again.)

10) Spot and Listen become Perception (Wis). Balance, Jump and Tumble becomes Acrobatics (Dex). Climb and Swim become Athletics (Str). Decipher Script and Speak Language become Linguistics (Int). Hide and Move Silent becomes Stealth (Dex). Any class with one of these as a class skill gains the newly merged skill as a class skill. Any skill which received a Synergy bonus from one of these receives a Synergy bonus from the combined skill, but only 1 synergy bonus even if multiple of the combined skills previously gave a synergy bonus.

(I don't really want to move the group from 3.5 to Pathfinder, yet this was one of my favorite changes they made. This isn't the exact conversion they used, but the idea is similar.)

11) Coins will be awarded, as rewards for finishing quests, for outstanding role playing, for smart thinking, or other similar circumstances. Each coin can be used to add or substract +2 to any roll on the table.

(Allows me to occasionally use Save or Dies without having them be too overpowering. Also allows player's to make sure other pivotal rolls can be influenced, and lessens the impact of rolling on the extremities. In general, I don't think one bad roll (on the player's part) or one particularly good roll (on my part) should result in a character's death, and I don't want to just hand wave these things. I always prefer to have a mechanical way to handle these sort of things, if possible.)


1) PC’s are made by point-buy method.

Base score in each stat starts at 8, and you get 32 points to improve this.
Point costs are as follows:
(Standard point buy chart)

You apply racial modifiers after setting all stats.

2) The core races are modified as follows: Half-Elves get either a bonus feat at 1st or 1 extra skill point per level, as per a human. Half-Orcs take either a -2 to Int or -2 to Cha, not both. Elves have a -2 to Str instead of a -2 to Con.

3) Any official source book is (provisionally) ok, with the caveat that I am free to veto anything. Homebrew is (provisionally) barred, with the caveat that I am free to allow on a limited bases. All character choices and decisions should be cleared prior to starting the game. In addition, I’m willing to work with you to allow modifications to classes in certain circumstances. Case in point: the Hierophant prestige class from the DMG. There is absolutely no reason it doesn’t advance casting at all. I’d be quite happy to allow spell casting at certain levels of the class.

4) No xp penalty for multi-classing.

5) Max hit points + 3 at 1st level. Three-fourths rounded down every other level (d4=3, d6=4, d8=6, d10=7, d12=9).

6) You die at negative your con stat, not negative 10. In addition, the death from massive damage rule is not in effect.

7) The mechanics of the Diplomacy skill are replaced by those described at the following link: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFp...kegKhONNF.html

8) The mechanics of the Heal skill are modified as follows:

A Healer’s Kit is required to use any of these uses of the Heal skill.
A Healer’s Kit now costs 25 G.
Stabilize (DC 10): Standard Action. Stabilizes a dieing character.
First Aid (DC 15): Takes 2 minutes to use. Heals 1 damage for every point the check exceeds 15. Can be used on any given character once per hour.
Treat Condition (DC 20) or (DC 20+level of the effect that caused the condition): Takes 1 minutes to use. Can be used to remove special conditions, such as paralysis or exhaustion.
Treat Injury (DC 25): Takes 10 minutes to use. Heals 1 point of ability damage. Can be used on any given character once per twelve hours.
Revive (DC 30): This two-round action must begin within one round of a character dying. It brings said character who died back to one less HP than would result in that character’s death. While the one using the Heal skill is performing this action they are considered Flat-Footed. If they either stop performing the action before it is complete, or are otherwise forced to stop, the Revive fails and no further attempts can be made.

9) Every character receives 1 more skill point per level (4 more at first level) than normal for their class. This is applied after all other modifiers are taken into account (so a low Int character will always have a minimum of 2 skill points per level, not 1). To give you something to use this on, every character also may choose two skills not on their starting list of class skills. These skills will always be treated as class skills by that character. These are not meant to be chosen for power, but for flavor. Any craft skill, profession skill, knowledge skill, or perform skill is automatically allowed as one of your extra skills. Other skills may be allowed on a case by case basis.

10) Every character also receives one extra bonus feat at first level. This, like the extra skill points, is meant to allow extra flavor, not power. This feat can be a feat that adds a flat bonus to skill checks or a regional feat (from Forgotten Realms, Dragon magazine, or any other printed regional feat) which will be refluffed to fit into the campaign world. Other feats may also be approved on a case by case basis.

11) Spot and Listen become Perception (Wis). Balance and Tumble becomes Acrobatics (Dex). Climb, Jump, and Swim become Athletics (Str). Decipher Script and Speak Language become Linguistics (Int) (For each rank in Linguistics the character leans to speak one new language). Hide and Move Silent becomes Stealth (Dex). Any class with one of these as a class skill gains the newly merged skill as a class skill. Any skill which received a Synergy bonus from one of these receives a Synergy bonus from the combined skill, but only 1 synergy bonus even if multiple of the combined skills previously gave a synergy bonus.

[moritheil]

Up through #6, I was nodding. After that it started getting convoluted.

[daemonaetea]

Up through #6, I was nodding. After that it started getting convoluted.

Heh. That's actually helpful feedback all on it's own. If that's your reaction the player's will probably feel similar. The barebones version, minus all the explanation:

7) This is the Giant's Diplomacy fix. All you really need to know is it's now more to persuade people, than the "change attitude" effect it had before.

8) Heal can be used to regain HP immediately, once per day and based on the check, since previously it wasn't really used much.

8) (Just noticed I had 8 twice) +2 skills per level and +2 skills added to class list, chosen and used for flavor.

9) 1 extra feat, also chosen for flavor.

10) Several skills are combined, so that less used skills are actually more enticing now.

11) Special coins are given as rewards, which can be used to influence rolls.

Hopefully that's a bit less of a mouthful.

[Bakkan]

1) PC’s are made by point-buy method.

Base score in each stat starts at 8, and you get 32 points to improve this.
Point costs are as follows:
(Standard point buy chart follows)

You apply racial modifiers after setting all stats.


A common choice, and for good reason. Thumbs-up from me.



2) The core races are modified as follows: Half-elfs get either a bonus feat at 1st or 1 extra skill point per level, as per a human. Half-orcs take either a -2 to Int or -2 to Cha, not both.


A couple nice boosts to the two weakest races in the PHB. I would also consider doing something to help the Elf. Maybe exchange the Con penalty for a Str penalty?



3) Any official source book is (provisionally) ok, with the caveat that I am free to veto anything. Homebrew is (provisionally) barred, with the caveat that I am free to allow on a limited bases. All character choices and decisions should be cleared prior to starting the game. In addition, I’m willing to work with you to allow modifications to classes in certain circumstances. Case in point: the Hierophant prestige class from the DMG. There is absolutely no reason it doesn’t advance casting at all. I’d be quite happy to allow spell casting at certain levels of the class.

(The group I game with mostly sticks to core. I'd really like a chance to run a game with a wide and varied set of classes, spells, and feats.)


Sounds good. One of the ways I have been most successful in getting players interested in other systems beyond those in core is to have them fight enemies that use those systems. The first time your fighter is struck by a Crusader and then can't make any AoO's against all those minions rushing past him, he'll remember it.



4) No xp penalty for multi-classing.

(Multi-classing is half the fun!)


Excellent. Honestly, this is the houserule I care most about.



5) Max hit points + 3 at 1st level. Max minus 1 every other level (d4=3, d6=5, d8=7, d10=9, d12=11).

(I don't like a single roll to have long term mechanical consequences. Same reason I don't like rolling for HP.)


I'm not sure how I feel about this one. I suppose it depends on what level you're starting at. Level 1-2 characters are notoriously fragile. However, if you're starting higher, I would recommend either taking the average rolls (as per DMG) or having every class advance at the same proportion of their HD size (e.g. 75% (round up), so d4=3, d6=5, d8=6, d10=8, d12=9). It's not a big deal, but making it max-1 mathematically almost doubles the advantage that those with large hit dice have over the ones with small hit dice.



6) You die at negative your con stat, not negative 10.

(For mainline fighters, those most likely to die from massive damage, this makes high level combat slightly less splattery.)


A rule I commonly use, though this makes the low-Con character even more fragile than he was before, but if your players know that just about every character regardless of class should have at least a 10 in Constitution, this won't be a problem.



7) The mechanics of the Diplomacy skill are replaced by those described at the following link: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html

(Overall I prefer using rules to discretion. I don't want to just ignore the diplomacy rules and handwave those rolls, I'd prefer to have actual rules for how to handle them.)


Sounds good.



8) The mechanics of the Heal skill are modified as follows:

Healer’s Kit: Price reduced to 25 G. Still has 10 charges, still gives +2 bonus.
First Aid (DC 15): Heals 1 damage for every point the check exceeds 15. Can be performed once per combat the character has been in since last healing or last fully healed, or once per day. Requires using 1 charge of the Healer’s Kit, which is used whether the healing is successful or not.
Treat Injury (DC 25): Heals 1 point of ability damage. Usable once per day. Requires using 2 charges of the Healer’s Kit, which is used whether the healing is successful or not.
Revive (DC 30): This two-round action must begin within one round of a character dying. It brings said character who died back to one less HP than would result in that character’s death. Requires using 5 charges of the Healer’s Kit, which are used whether the healing is successful or not.

(I'd like to make the Heal skill relevant, and to give mundanes an actual way to cure.)


I find the wording on the restrictions on the First Aid kit a little confusing. In my opinion, making it a straight "once every X hours" would be much easier to parse. A couple clarifications: first, you should make it explicit that the limits are per character healed (e.g. "a single creature may benefit from the Treat Injury use of the Heal skill once per day") rather than per healer or per Healing Kit.

Between this rule (making out of combat healing essentially limitless past the first few levels) and the rule increasing hit points, you may want to bump up the enemies' damage somewhat, unless you're specifically going for a low-fatality campaign.



8) Every character receives 2 more skill points per level (8 more at first level) than normal for their class. This is applied after all other modifiers are taken into account (so a low Int character will always have a minimum of 3 skill points per level, not 1). To give you something to use this on, every character also may choose two skills not on their starting list of class skills. These skills will always be treated as class skills by that character, and each must have a minimum of 3 ranks upon starting the game. These are not meant to be chosen for power, but for flavor. For instance, your Fighter may have grown up around the docks and thus have Profession(Sailor) as a class skill. Or, if his father was a wizard, he might even have Spellcraft.

(I like characters to have mechanical backup for fluff, and yet I don't want to penalize characters who actually do.)

9) Every character also receives one extra bonus feat at first level. This, like the extra skill points, is meant to allow extra flavor, not power. Your Fighter’s extra feat should not be Cleave. Rather, it could be Animal Affinity, to show his love of animals, or Lightning Reflexes, to show how he’s always been quick on his feet. This feat is meant to be something that, in the normal course of things, you probably wouldn’t take, but fits the character background you’re thinking of. Or, possibly, help you think of. For instance: Why exactly did your Fighter come to have ranks in Linguistics and Knowledge(Dungeoneering), and why is he so skilled at running away (Run feat)?

(Same again.)


When I create a character, I typically start with a new mechanical concept or
system I want to try and then build my character around that and let the mechanics inform my backstory and so forth. With a rule like this, it is tempting to make sure my character has an appropriate backstaory that would help out his actual function in the game (like a rogue whose father just happened to be a sorcerer so he picks up the Magical Aptitude feat to help out with his UMD'ing). If I were making these rules, I would remove the extra feat, and sharply limit the skills that the extra skill points could be invested in (probably to only Crafts, Professions, and Knowledges). I would also increase by an additional 2 (with no investment restrictions) the number of skill points that non-Int based classes get that normally get only 2 skill points per level (sorcerers come to mind)




10) Spot and Listen become Perception (Wis). Balance, Jump and Tumble becomes Acrobatics (Dex). Climb and Swim become Athletics (Str). Decipher Script and Speak Language become Linguistics (Int). Hide and Move Silent becomes Stealth (Dex). Any class with one of these as a class skill gains the newly merged skill as a class skill. Any skill which received a Synergy bonus from one of these receives a Synergy bonus from the combined skill, but only 1 synergy bonus even if multiple of the combined skills previously gave a synergy bonus.

(I don't really want to move the group from 3.5 to Pathfinder, yet this was one of my favorite changes they made. This isn't the exact conversion they used, but the idea is similar.)


I don't like Jump being based off of Dexterity by default. It makes things much harder for me to make my big brutish barbarian who leaps at enemies, ready to cleave them in two, if I can't even reliably jump over a 5-ft-wide trench at 1st level. I would either roll it into Athletics or let it be based off of either Dex or Strength. You should spell out that Linguistics works as in PF: for every rank you have in Linguistics, you learn one more language in addition to being better at Deciphering Scripts.



11) Coins will be awarded, as rewards for finishing quests, for outstanding role playing, for smart thinking, or other similar circumstances. Each coin can be used to add or substract +2 to any roll on the table.

(Allows me to occasionally use Save or Dies without having them be too overpowering. Also allows player's to make sure other pivotal rolls can be influenced, and lessens the impact of rolling on the extremities. In general, I don't think one bad roll (on the player's part) or one particularly good roll (on my part) should result in a character's death, and I don't want to just hand wave these things. I always prefer to have a mechanical way to handle these sort of things, if possible.)

I like this. You should specify whether the choice to spend a coin can be made after success has been determined, whether the coin can be used to modify non-d20 rolls, whether more than one coin can be spent on the same roll, and if so, whether more than one player can spend coins modifying the same roll, and if you don't roll for the enemies in the open, whether you will let them know when the enemies roll an auto-hit so the players don't spend all their coins reducing a roll that doesn't matter.

I think that's about it for now. Overall, it looks good and there are some very god ideas here.

[Jarian]

(For mainline fighters, those most likely to die from massive damage, this makes high level combat slightly less splattery.)

I think you made a typo in saying "Death from massive damage has been removed, because it's a poorly balanced mechanic likely to result in instant death from normal hits at higher levels far more often than is remotely reasonable."

We all make mistakes though. :smallbiggrin:

[eggs]

1) PC’s are made by point-buy method...
2) The core races are modified as follows....
4) No xp penalty for multi-classing...
6) You die at negative your con stat, not negative 10.
10) [condensed skills]
11) Coins will be awarded, as rewards for finishing quests, for outstanding role playing, for smart thinking, or other similar circumstances.

All fair and pretty straightforward.

#6 is minor, but could be clever for reinforcing the value of Con to a group that might not initially recognize it.

#11 looks like fun motivation; can multiple coins stack? Depending on the answer, the effect could go from pretty minor to really potentially meaningful.


3) ... All character choices and decisions should be cleared prior to starting the game
I ask for something like this, but you might want to be clear - depending on how the game goes, can players change their character advancement plans?

5) Max hit points + 3 at 1st level. Max minus 1 every other level (d4=3, d6=5, d8=7, d10=9, d12=11).This is going to reward large HD classes. That might not be a bad thing.

7) The mechanics of the Diplomacy skill are replaced by those described at the following link: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.htmlThese aren't much better than the default rules, but they are way fiddlier. Be prepared to handwave anyway.

8) The mechanics of the Heal skill are modified as follows:HP will lose some of its scarcity, but that might not be a huge deal.

I'd put the limits on healing received on the recipient, not the skill-user; otherwise, things are going to get bogged down while every character heals every other character after a fight.

8) Every character receives 2 more skill points per level (8 more at first level) than normal for their class. ... These are not meant to be chosen for power, but for flavor....
9) Every character also receives one extra bonus feat at first level. This, like the extra skill points, is meant to allow extra flavor, not power...
I'd give each of these a list of applicable options ahead of time. Otherwise, it's just asking for either abuse or contention over what should/shouldn't count as "flavor, not power."

[daemonaetea]

First, thanks for the detailed feedback!


A couple nice boosts to the two weakest races in the PHB. I would also consider doing something to help the Elf. Maybe exchange the Con penalty for a Str penalty?

That sounds good too, I'll probably throw that in.


Sounds good. One of the ways I have been most successful in getting players interested in other systems beyond those in core is to have them fight enemies that use those systems. The first time your fighter is struck by a Crusader and then can't make any AoO's against all those minions rushing past him, he'll remember it.

Exactly what I was thinking of doing. I definitely want to use this as an opportunity to show off some of the excellent things that can be found outside core. I'll build it up slowly - the first combat I have planned features a pair of marshals buffing up a number of low level goblins, and I'll ramp it up from there. I figure one of the first "boss" battles will features a trio of the ToB classes as a hard and surprising fight.


I'm not sure how I feel about this one. I suppose it depends on what level you're starting at. Level 1-2 characters are notoriously fragile. However, if you're starting higher, I would recommend either taking the average rolls (as per DMG) or having every class advance at the same proportion of their HD size (e.g. 75% (round up), so d4=3, d6=5, d8=6, d10=8, d12=9). It's not a big deal, but making it max-1 mathematically almost doubles the advantage that those with large hit dice have over the ones with small hit dice.

Good points. I was actually waffling between this and the 75%. If you and others think that would work better I'll probably change it back.


A rule I commonly use, though this makes the low-Con character even more fragile than he was before, but if your players know that just about every character regardless of class should have at least a 10 in Constitution, this won't be a problem.

With the Elf-con fix, even the lowest Con character should have an 8, which isn't hugely different than the default 10.


I find the wording on the restrictions on the First Aid kit a little confusing. In my opinion, making it a straight "once every X hours" would be much easier to parse. A couple clarifications: first, you should make it explicit that the limits are per character healed (e.g. "a single creature may benefit from the Treat Injury use of the Heal skill once per day") rather than per healer or per Healing Kit.

Between this rule (making out of combat healing essentially limitless past the first few levels) and the rule increasing hit points, you may want to bump up the enemies' damage somewhat, unless you're specifically going for a low-fatality campaign.

Yeah, the Heal thing probably still needs work. I saw it posted in a recent topic as an idea and I really liked the idea of it. I've adapted it here in my own form, but I definitely need to make that more clear. The idea was that in general it can only be used once per day, but if there are fresh wounds (a day with multiple combats, say) the First Aid can be applied to those fresh wounds. I'll have to think on this, see if there's a better way to phrase that.


When I create a character, I typically start with a new mechanical concept or
system I want to try and then build my character around that and let the mechanics inform my backstory and so forth. With a rule like this, it is tempting to make sure my character has an appropriate backstaory that would help out his actual function in the game (like a rogue whose father just happened to be a sorcerer so he picks up the Magical Aptitude feat to help out with his UMD'ing). If I were making these rules, I would remove the extra feat, and sharply limit the skills that the extra skill points could be invested in (probably to only Crafts, Professions, and Knowledges). I would also increase by an additional 2 (with no investment restrictions) the number of skill points that non-Int based classes get that normally get only 2 skill points per level (sorcerers come to mind)

One of the things I'd be checking for when reviewing character sheets would be to catch those using the free skills and feats for optimization purposes, and this would be shot down. This is meant to be a nice character building thing, not a power thing. I trust those that play with me well enough to use this as I intend it.


I don't like Jump being based off of Dexterity by default. It makes things much harder for me to make my big brutish barbarian who leaps at enemies, ready to cleave them in two, if I can't even reliably jump over a 5-ft-wide trench at 1st level. I would either roll it into Athletics or let it be based off of either Dex or Strength. You should spell out that Linguistics works as in PF: for every rank you have in Linguistics, you learn one more language in addition to being better at Deciphering Scripts.

Yeah, I might change those around a little, and make the Linguistics clearer.


I like this. You should specify whether the choice to spend a coin can be made after success has been determined, whether the coin can be used to modify non-d20 rolls, whether more than one coin can be spent on the same roll, and if so, whether more than one player can spend coins modifying the same roll, and if you don't roll for the enemies in the open, whether you will let them know when the enemies roll an auto-hit so the players don't spend all their coins reducing a roll that doesn't matter.

This is based off the system my current DM uses, with the only modification that it can be used to reduce rolls as well. In his game it's applied after you know the outcome, and you are explicitly told how many you'd need to succeed. So no wasting coins, and for important rolls (life or death) several players may chip in to preserve the life of our companion. It's one of my favorite of his house rule's.

[daemonaetea]

I think you made a typo in saying "Death from massive damage has been removed, because it's a poorly balanced mechanic likely to result in instant death from normal hits at higher levels far more often than is remotely reasonable."

We all make mistakes though. :smallbiggrin:

Ha. My group ignores this one so often I'd forgotten it'd even existed! Definitely needs to be added.

[daemonaetea]

#11 looks like fun motivation; can multiple coins stack? Depending on the answer, the effect could go from pretty minor to really potentially meaningful.

Yep, they can stack. It will be controlled (preventing the game from becoming "Throw coins at it until the problem goes away!") by maintaining a small (5-10) number of coins available for play at any given time, and making sure the players are aware that wasting coins will result in pain when the big boss arrives later and they no longer have that safety net.


I ask for something like this, but you might want to be clear - depending on how the game goes, can players change their character advancement plans?

Absolutely! This is more on a level up basis. Sharing their future plans is appreciated but not required. However, by double-checking their sheets I'll be able to be more acquainted with their characters, better able to tailor my games for their abilities, and ensuring fun for all. And, of course, making sure they don't get too crazy with all that new freedom! ("No, I don't care what you did, you didn't *really* qualify for Beholder Mage! Try again!")


These aren't much better than the default rules, but they are way fiddlier. Be prepared to handwave anyway.

Eh, I like the more concrete nature of it. "Friendly" doesn't really tell me a lot, but "Agrees to the deal" does. Still, I can see how it might need to be tweaked for circumstances.


I'd put the limits on healing received on the recipient, not the skill-user; otherwise, things are going to get bogged down while every character heals every other character after a fight.

That shows how clear my original wording is. That's what was meant.

[kardar233]

I would definitely play in this game, from what I've seen so far.

[mucco]

Look into action points. They are Eberron-specific in 3.5, and look like what you want to do with your HR #11.

For HP, I use the houserule that you may never roll less than half your die. So if you have a d10 and roll a 2, it is treated as a 5 instead.

[Vladislav]

A few comments:

(2) is a good change

(3) scares me. I mean, it scares me because it should be the default. I'm thinking "what kind of players does he game with that this needs to be actually stated" ?

(8) as a shameless plug, take a look at some of my ideas for the Heal skill
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246531

(9) is likely to lead to problems. Players will always try to sneak in the most powerful feat in there. Even if you specifically tell them it's just for flavor, all there hear is "bonus feat". But I guess, could be made to work depending on the players.

[daemonaetea]

(8) as a shameless plug, take a look at some of my ideas for the Heal skill
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246531

Heh, not at all shameless! That's the topic I was thinking of, the one that inspired me! I actually should have taken the time to look it up and link it myself. My idea was to take that and simplify it somewhat, and limit it slightly. I probably need to look it over again a bit more carefully, and consider it more than my quick hackery of it.

[dspeyer]

Giving everyone two extra skills and consolidating the list somewhat devalue the skillful classes. You might make it 50% more skills. Or if you want to make it flavor-only, restrict it to craft/profession/perform and forbid using it for a skill that powers a class feature.

[Vladislav]

Giving everyone two extra skills and consolidating the list somewhat devalue the skillful classes. You might make it 50% more skills. Or if you want to make it flavor-only, restrict it to craft/profession/perform and forbid using it for a skill that powers a class feature.

I actually like it, a clean and simple solution. For all classes, 2+Int becomes 3+Int, 4+Int becomes 6+Int, and so on.

[daemonaetea]

Giving everyone two extra skills and consolidating the list somewhat devalue the skillful classes. You might make it 50% more skills. Or if you want to make it flavor-only, restrict it to craft/profession/perform and forbid using it for a skill that powers a class feature.

Considering your the third person with concerns on that front I'm definitely beginning to give it some credence. And I was slightly worried with devaluing skill classes. How about this, then? Limit it to the following list:

Craft/Profession/Knowledge/Perform

That's cobbled together from multiple user's suggestions, and I think gives ample room for a bit of flavor to be thrown. And I could make it work kinda like I have sources working - any of those can be chosen without having to ask, while others can be approved on a case by case basis. Sound better?

[TuggyNE]

1) PC’s are made by point-buy method.

Standard, not a problem; I might suggest using Pathfinder's point buy, which encourages odd ability scores a bit more, but either way should work.


2) The core races are modified as follows: Half-elfs get either a bonus feat at 1st or 1 extra skill point per level, as per a human. Half-orcs take either a -2 to Int or -2 to Cha, not both.

This is probably good, since those are classically terribad races.


3) Any official source book is (provisionally) ok, with the caveat that I am free to veto anything. Homebrew is (provisionally) barred, with the caveat that I am free to allow on a limited bases. All character choices and decisions should be cleared prior to starting the game. In addition, I’m willing to work with you to allow modifications to classes in certain circumstances. Case in point: the Hierophant prestige class from the DMG. There is absolutely no reason it doesn’t advance casting at all. I’d be quite happy to allow spell casting at certain levels of the class.

4) No xp penalty for multi-classing.

It's difficult to say how much I approve of these. :smallbiggrin:


5) Max hit points + 3 at 1st level. Max minus 1 every other level (d4=3, d6=5, d8=7, d10=9, d12=11).

Interesting, a unique adjustment to just having max or max/average.


6) You die at negative your con stat, not negative 10.

(For mainline fighters, those most likely to die from massive damage, this makes high level combat slightly less splattery.)

Yes please, although as mentioned, massive damage is probably a good next target for your trimming efforts....


7) The mechanics of the Diplomacy skill are replaced by those described at the following link: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html

If you hadn't mentioned this, I probably would have.


8) The mechanics of the Heal skill are modified as follows:

Again, if Vladislav hadn't mentioned the thread I would've. :smallwink:


8) Every character receives 2 more skill points per level (8 more at first level) than normal for their class. This is applied after all other modifiers are taken into account (so a low Int character will always have a minimum of 3 skill points per level, not 1). To give you something to use this on, every character also may choose two skills not on their starting list of class skills. These skills will always be treated as class skills by that character, and each must have a minimum of 3 ranks upon starting the game. These are not meant to be chosen for power, but for flavor. For instance, your Fighter may have grown up around the docks and thus have Profession(Sailor) as a class skill. Or, if his father was a wizard, he might even have Spellcraft.

(I like characters to have mechanical backup for fluff, and yet I don't want to penalize characters who actually do.)

9) Every character also receives one extra bonus feat at first level. This, like the extra skill points, is meant to allow extra flavor, not power. Your Fighter’s extra feat should not be Cleave. Rather, it could be Animal Affinity, to show his love of animals, or Lightning Reflexes, to show how he’s always been quick on his feet. This feat is meant to be something that, in the normal course of things, you probably wouldn’t take, but fits the character background you’re thinking of. Or, possibly, help you think of. For instance: Why exactly did your Fighter come to have ranks in Linguistics and Knowledge(Dungeoneering), and why is he so skilled at running away (Run feat)?

Hmm. This is well-meant, but I would suggest asking your players which feats they would take, flavor-wise, if they weren't so underpowered, and then finding fixes for those feats. Lightning Reflexes, for example, has a number of good fixes in Homebrew.

This way optimization and roleplaying merge, rather than being treated as opposed.


10) Spot and Listen become Perception (Wis). Balance, Jump and Tumble becomes Acrobatics (Dex). Climb and Swim become Athletics (Str). Decipher Script and Speak Language become Linguistics (Int). Hide and Move Silent becomes Stealth (Dex). Any class with one of these as a class skill gains the newly merged skill as a class skill. Any skill which received a Synergy bonus from one of these receives a Synergy bonus from the combined skill, but only 1 synergy bonus even if multiple of the combined skills previously gave a synergy bonus.

This is probably fine, except for the placement of Jump, and the lack of Forgery in the list.


11) Coins will be awarded, as rewards for finishing quests, for outstanding role playing, for smart thinking, or other similar circumstances. Each coin can be used to add or substract +2 to any roll on the table.

(Allows me to occasionally use Save or Dies without having them be too overpowering. Also allows player's to make sure other pivotal rolls can be influenced, and lessens the impact of rolling on the extremities. In general, I don't think one bad roll (on the player's part) or one particularly good roll (on my part) should result in a character's death, and I don't want to just hand wave these things. I always prefer to have a mechanical way to handle these sort of things, if possible.)

Here I'd suggest UA's Action Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm) as a slightly more official way to go about the same thing. (I believe it's nearly the same as the Eberron system, but I could be wrong about that.)

[Vladislav]

I also suggest rolling Disguise and Forgery into Fraud, and rolling all the Str-based skills into Athletics.

[daemonaetea]

Standard, not a problem; I might suggest using Pathfinder's point buy, which encourages odd ability scores a bit more, but either way should work.

I don't think I've ever seen that before, actually. I'll have to look it up.


This is probably good, since those are classically terribad races.

I even considered giving the Half-Orc the choice of the skill point/feat as well, but ultimately decided against it.


Yes please, although as mentioned, massive damage is probably a good next target for your trimming efforts....

Already added to my own copy!


Hmm. This is well-meant, but I would suggest asking your players which feats they would take, flavor-wise, if they weren't so underpowered, and then finding fixes for those feats. Lightning Reflexes, for example, has a number of good fixes in Homebrew.

This way optimization and roleplaying merge, rather than being treated as opposed.

Many of these players look down upon Homebrew, another thing I'd like to open them to. At least to start I'd prefer to keep the Homebrew to a minimum, slowly introducing new things and only telling them after the fact that what they just encountered was actually Homebrew.


This is probably fine, except for the placement of Jump, and the lack of Forgery in the list.

Yeah, I think I'll definitely move Jump in with Climb and Swim. As for Forgery, I really thought about it, but ultimately couldn't decide what to place it with. If you have suggestions I'd appreciate the input.


Here I'd suggest UA's Action Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm) as a slightly more official way to go about the same thing. (I believe it's nearly the same as the Eberron system, but I could be wrong about that.)

That's very interesting, and has some nifty effects, but ultimately I like the simplicity of the coin thing (1 coin = +/-2 to a roll), and I dislike the fixed nature of the action points (obtained at level up only), which I think would make their use much rarer than I'd like.

[daemonaetea]

I also suggest rolling Disguise and Forgery into Fraud, and rolling all the Str-based skills into Athletics.

Hmm. Well, in function they're very close together, it's true, but fluff wise I see them as very separate things. An actor may have Disguise, but probably couldn't actually Forge anything. I can see the combo working, but for some reason I just don't like it.


Other than that, here's some of the modifications I've made so far, to the Heal skill and to the extra skill points. What do you think?

8) The mechanics of the Heal skill are modified as follows:

Stabilize (DC 10): Standard Action. Stabilizes a dieing character.
First Aid (DC 15): Takes 2 minutes to use. Heals 1 damage for every point the check exceeds 15. Can be used on any given character once per hour.
Treat Condition (DC 20) or (DC 20+level of the effect that caused the condition): Takes 1 minutes to use. Can be used to remove special conditions, such as paralysis or exhaustion, but only ongoing effects. Those of permanent duration cannot be cured.
Treat Injury (DC 25): Takes 10 minutes to use. Heals 1 point of ability damage. Can be used on any given character once per twelve hours.
Revive (DC 30): This two-round action must begin within one round of a character dying. It brings said character who died back to one less HP than would result in that character’s death.

(I decided the charges of the Healer's Kit thing didn't really add enough, and the effectively once per day nature of the healing was really a bit overboard. Also decided that I liked the "removing effects" use listed in the other thread after all.)

8) Every character receives 1 more skill point per level (4 more at first level) than normal for their class. This is applied after all other modifiers are taken into account (so a low Int character will always have a minimum of 2 skill points per level, not 1). To give you something to use this on, every character also may choose two skills not on their starting list of class skills. These skills will always be treated as class skills by that character. These are not meant to be chosen for power, but for flavor. Any craft skill, profession skill, knowledge skill, or perform skill is automatically allowed as one of your extra skills. Other skills may be allowed on a case by case basis.

(Takes into account some of the recommendations in this thread, helping to limit it somewhat, and returning some of the "oomph" to skill based classes.)

[Slipperychicken]

First, you have two houserules listed as number 8. Fixing that would help any argument for sanity :smalltongue:

1) 32pb is fine.

2) [no comment. Not my area of expertise]

3) no problems here.

4) No multiclass xp penalty? Passes the sanity check with flying colors. The game is improved with this houserule.

5) Personally, I prefer taking average hit points (d4=2.5, d6=3.5, etc.) after first level. Max-1 is way tankier than the game expects you to be at a given level. If you're going for a really superheroic game, it passes with a D. If not, it Fails.

6) Yeah, -CON is fine. Just letting you know; at high levels, this will not make any real difference. Passed.

7) Not much to worry about here.

8a) I think it makes sense, but the Revive function feels wrong. I've always considered -10 to be the "he's dead, Doc, just leave 'im alone" stage. Heal check to stabilize already represents "revival" from near-death. Also, it gets really weird when Save-or-Die effects are involved, or when the character is Chunky Salsa'd. Pass with a C.

8b) The skill bump almost makes sense to me, but only for Int+2 classes which have Int as a dump stat. Hardly gamebreaking, though, if you just use it on Perform (Sexual) and Profession (Moisture Farmer). Even so, one rank should do it, especially if your PCs are rusty from all the adventuring, unless they've all acheived total mastery of dirt-farming, sailing, and prostitution. You create a strong incentive for people to have backstories which heavily involve their class's useful skills. When was the last time someone needed to make a Profession (dirt farmer) check, anyway? Fail.

9) I think you're basically requiring people to munchkin their backstories into a free feat with this one. Taking Lightning Reflexes does not make you roleplay better. Failed.

10) I also love what PF did with rolling skills together, so I also love the idea of this rule. If it works out like in PF, fine.

11) DM-cookies can be nice, but I've seen them go out of control. Say a Player accrues 10 of these, then uses them all for a +20 to Bluff his way into the treasury. Might want to cap the number you can have total, and the number you can use for one roll (10 max, only use 5 for a single d20 roll, for a bonus of +10). Use with caution, and require DM approval for each use.

[Khedrac]

I've not played much Forgotten Realms, but the "regional feats" are used by some DMs as a bonus feat taken at first level (you get to choose one of the applicable regional/racial feats) so that's not as unusual as people are suggesting. I do think there is some space for asking players to justify them, but if it is to support back-story then you are doing it twice as the skill points are there for that. Dragon Magazine did regional feats for Greyhawk if your setting is there.

Death by Massive Damage. Hmm, I've played with this and it is far worse for the PCs than the NPCs (like all fumble rules), however there are ways it can be saved from total oblivion.
What the campaign I am playing in does (as suggested by a player from a previous campaign he ran) is make it "Save or Stun" not "Save or Die". I think the duration is only 1 round (don't recall) which can be nasty but is a lot less fatal. We also use the size-based thresholds (which is worse for the players) but the non-lethal nature makes it acceptable.

[daemonaetea]

5) Personally, I prefer taking average hit points (d4=2.5, d6=3.5, etc.) after first level. Max-1 is way tankier than the game expects you to be at a given level. If you're going for a really superheroic game, it passes with a D. If not, it Fails.

Yeah, I was having trouble deciding between this and 75% HP per level. Based on your, and other, feedback I think I'll slip that down to the 75% mark.


8a) I think it makes sense, but the Revive function feels wrong. I've always considered -10 to be the "he's dead, Doc, just leave 'im alone" stage. Heal check to stabilize already represents "revival" from near-death. Also, it gets really weird when Save-or-Die effects are involved, or when the character is Chunky Salsa'd. Pass with a C.

For some reason I just like the idea of someone with high ranks in Heal being able to bring someone back from just over the brink. I'm thinking of something like CPR and quick bandaging/restorative ointment applying. Just enough to stablize someone on this side of the living/dead divide. I'm even fine with it being used on Save or Dies. I see Finger of Death as a sort of total system shutdown, the perfect sort of thing for CPR to reverse. Again, the idea is to make mundane healing actually seem competent, and to give those with high ranks in it something to do - can't do everything, but can do a good amount.


8b) The skill bump almost makes sense to me, but only for Int+2 classes which have Int as a dump stat. Hardly gamebreaking, though, if you just use it on Perform (Sexual) and Profession (Moisture Farmer). Even so, one rank should do it, especially if your PCs are rusty from all the adventuring, unless they've all acheived total mastery of dirt-farming, sailing, and prostitution. You create a strong incentive for people to have backstories which heavily involve their class's useful skills. When was the last time someone needed to make a Profession (dirt farmer) check, anyway? Fail.

I've actually already decided to bump it back down to one skill point per level, but keeping the two class skills (albeit from a limited list). Again, this may just be my preference, but I like to see characters with a few skill points outside their main area of competence, and I'd like to encourage that.


9) I think you're basically requiring people to munchkin their backstories into a free feat with this one. Taking Lightning Reflexes does not make you roleplay better. Failed.

Probably should have explained a little more. Some of the player's that'll be playing see nothing wrong with Animal Affinity or Lightning Reflexes as a feat. Rather than trying to persuade them differently, it seemed easier to simply incorporate that as a house-rule, thereby giving them the feat they want while still leaving the rest of their feat slots open for more powerful options.

And I know Lightning Reflexes doesn't make you roleplay better, and I would never state anything to the contrary. Still, if you're playing a fast, twitchy character it can be fun to have little touches like that. Not necessary, not even recommended, but just... neat.


11) DM-cookies can be nice, but I've seen them go out of control. Say a Player accrues 10 of these, then uses them all for a +20 to Bluff his way into the treasury. Might want to cap the number you can have total, and the number you can use for one roll (10 max, only use 5 for a single d20 roll, for a bonus of +10). Use with caution, and require DM approval for each use.

I'll definitely be controlling the number available at any given time, but honestly, I don't really have a problem with your example. If the player's want to use up all the coins on the table to Bluff their way into a treasury, fine, good on them for getting creative! However, it's really too bad they have't thought about how they're getting out of the heavily guarded, dimension locked, heavily trapped treasury. :smallsmile:


I've not played much Forgotten Realms, but the "regional feats" are used by some DMs as a bonus feat taken at first level (you get to choose one of the applicable regional/racial feats) so that's not as unusual as people are suggesting. I do think there is some space for asking players to justify them, but if it is to support back-story then you are doing it twice as the skill points are there for that. Dragon Magazine did regional feats for Greyhawk if your setting is there.

I actually really like the regional feats. Although we're playing in a custom world I'd have no problem whatsoever with allowing a player to take one of those as their bonus feat, and just refluffing it to fit the world their in. It helps both me flesh out the campaign world, by picking out the spot it would fit the most, and gives them a better feel for the larger world beyond where their character's start.


Death by Massive Damage. Hmm, I've played with this and it is far worse for the PCs than the NPCs (like all fumble rules), however there are ways it can be saved from total oblivion.
What the campaign I am playing in does (as suggested by a player from a previous campaign he ran) is make it "Save or Stun" not "Save or Die". I think the duration is only 1 round (don't recall) which can be nasty but is a lot less fatal. We also use the size-based thresholds (which is worse for the players) but the non-lethal nature makes it acceptable.

The Save or Stun is interesting, but I still think I'll just be removing it from the game entirely. And since you mentioned fumble rules: None. Nada. No critical fumbles. That's not included in my list, since it's explicitly a house rule and should only need to be included if you plan to use them, but for my group I may actually need to say that I won't be using them since they seem to be the default for them.


And, just because, below is the current status of my house rules, as changed per this thread (now with fixed numbering!). Thanks to all of you for your help thus far!


1) PC’s are made by point-buy method.

Base score in each stat starts at 8, and you get 32 points to improve this.
Point costs are as follows:
(Standard point buy chart)

You apply racial modifiers after setting all stats.

2) The core races are modified as follows: Half-Elves get either a bonus feat at 1st or 1 extra skill point per level, as per a human. Half-Orcs take either a -2 to Int or -2 to Cha, not both. Elves have a -2 to Str instead of a -2 to Con.

3) Any official source book is (provisionally) ok, with the caveat that I am free to veto anything. Homebrew is (provisionally) barred, with the caveat that I am free to allow on a limited bases. All character choices and decisions should be cleared prior to starting the game. In addition, I’m willing to work with you to allow modifications to classes in certain circumstances. Case in point: the Hierophant prestige class from the DMG. There is absolutely no reason it doesn’t advance casting at all. I’d be quite happy to allow spell casting at certain levels of the class.

4) No xp penalty for multi-classing.

5) Max hit points + 3 at 1st level. Three-fourths rounded down every other level (d4=3, d6=4, d8=6, d10=7, d12=9).

6) You die at negative your con stat, not negative 10. In addition, the death from massive damage rule is not in effect.

7) The mechanics of the Diplomacy skill are replaced by those described at the following link: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html

8) The mechanics of the Heal skill are modified as follows:

A Healer’s Kit is required to use any of these uses of the Heal skill.
A Healer’s Kit now costs 25 G.
Stabilize (DC 10): Standard Action. Stabilizes a dieing character.
First Aid (DC 15): Takes 2 minutes to use. Heals 1 damage for every point the check exceeds 15. Can be used on any given character once per hour.
Treat Condition (DC 20) or (DC 20+level of the effect that caused the condition): Takes 1 minutes to use. Can be used to remove special conditions, such as paralysis or exhaustion.
Treat Injury (DC 25): Takes 10 minutes to use. Heals 1 point of ability damage. Can be used on any given character once per twelve hours.
Revive (DC 30): This two-round action must begin within one round of a character dying. It brings said character who died back to one less HP than would result in that character’s death. While the one using the Heal skill is performing this action they are considered Flat-Footed. If they either stop performing the action before it is complete, or are otherwise forced to stop, the Revive fails and no further attempts can be made.

9) Every character receives 1 more skill point per level (4 more at first level) than normal for their class. This is applied after all other modifiers are taken into account (so a low Int character will always have a minimum of 2 skill points per level, not 1). To give you something to use this on, every character also may choose two skills not on their starting list of class skills. These skills will always be treated as class skills by that character. These are not meant to be chosen for power, but for flavor. Any craft skill, profession skill, knowledge skill, or perform skill is automatically allowed as one of your extra skills. Other skills may be allowed on a case by case basis.

10) Every character also receives one extra bonus feat at first level. This, like the extra skill points, is meant to allow extra flavor, not power. This feat can be a feat that adds a flat bonus to skill checks or a regional feat (from Forgotten Realms, Dragon magazine, or any other printed regional feat) which will be refluffed to fit into the campaign world. Other feats may also be approved on a case by case basis.

11) Spot and Listen become Perception (Wis). Balance and Tumble becomes Acrobatics (Dex). Climb, Jump, and Swim become Athletics (Str). Decipher Script and Speak Language become Linguistics (Int) (For each rank in Linguistics the character leans to speak one new language). Hide and Move Silent becomes Stealth (Dex). Any class with one of these as a class skill gains the newly merged skill as a class skill. Any skill which received a Synergy bonus from one of these receives a Synergy bonus from the combined skill, but only 1 synergy bonus even if multiple of the combined skills previously gave a synergy bonus.