I Am Become Death- "True" Necromancer Build

[333]

Yes, yes, I know the True Necromancer isn't every one's favorite Dual progression class, but what can I say? I like it! At least, I like the flavor. So my DM is starting either a monster or Evil Campaign sometime this week, and with our small party I want to cover the role of caster, both arcane and divine, and because of the premise of the campaign, being a necromancer just made sense.

First off, I'm going to ask my DM if I can substitute Deathbound for the Death Domain when I take my first cleric level, and still qualify.

Either way, first level is going to look like this

Necropolitan Gray Elf Elven Generalist Wizard, using my first feat on Academic Priest(since I'm going cleric, this will let me ignore Wis)

My stats are going to be(from highest to lowest)

Intelligence: both of my casting classes will be based off this, plus my skills and bonus spells
Dex and Wis: Dex will keep me alive longer by helping me avoid damage in the first place, while I'll need atleast 16 wisdom so that I can eventually spellstitch myself with animate undead, and its still useful for my divine DCs
Cha: Rebuking, but i won't need it maxed out, because our party will likely have a bard who can distract people from the fact that I'm undead if necessary.
Str and Con: I'm an undead wizard. Str is my dumpstat and I have no Con.

What I really want is some early qualification for True Necromancer that isn't TO cheesy. Since TN has a few skill requirements I was thinking about Versatile Spellcaster to qualify for MT at lvl five (Making me a GE Wiz 3/Cleric 1/MT 1) and then theurging until I meet the skill requirements, or maybe that feat that allows you to change the source of your spells from Arcane to Divine would let me qualify, not sure...

Anyway, this character would basically zurg rush foes, and spit out negative energy with all his cleric spells(which he would prepare as cure spells for his living allies), though if I have the feats to spare I'd like to get Lord of the UtterCold, Craft Wonderous item, and a few others, maybe craft contingent spell.

So, any thoughts? I want this build to be playable, it doesn't have to be good at everything, but I would like it to excel at what the True Necromancer was meant to do, lead the dead into battle. I know there are probably better builds (hell, I won't be surprised if every other post says "Be a Cleric") but I think this could work if the lost spell levels are minimized. Also, any tips on boosting undead hit dice would be great (I already intend to invest in a portable alter, and stitchfleshing and then spellstitching my familiar, and getting several items with the effect, just wanna know if I'm missing something)

[Namfuak]

I think the main reason that people dislike True Necromancer is that losing CL means that you can't summon as powerful undead as you could as, say, a straight cleric. However, for your purposes, why not use Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror? It would fit your theme quite well and you get full CL, so better undead. However, if you want to go necropolitan you'll probably want to find some full spellcasting PrC to take after 12th level or earlier, since the capstone (free lich transformation) won't work for you.

If you absolutely must be a wizard/cleric, any theurge build that gives you more CL than TN does is going to be better for you.

If you really want help with your TN build, it may be useful if we know approximately what levels you will be playing through.

[Amoren]

I can't recall the requirements of True Necromancer off the top of my head, and my books aren't with me at the moment, but why not use Ur-Priest over Cleric? Seems like you'll have to get the domain somewhere else (I vaguely recall a wizard feat or substitution that replaced specializing with a domain of your choice, that should count). That way, your wizard levels might be a bit delayed, but your cleric casting should be at full. And heck, you don't have to worry about the evil requirement.

If you do want to go straight cleric/wizard, though, I've found a way to qualify for Mystic Theurge at level 3 (and get it at 4). Wizard 2/Cleric 1. Take the feat from Complete Arcane (or Mage?) that allows you to cast a 2nd level spell and Academic Priest (it states you can take it even if you don't have a divine spellcasting class, I believe), then at third level take Alternate Spell Source from Dragon Magazine. At third level, you can now cast a 2nd level spell as a divine or arcane spell, and thus qualify for Mystic Theurge.

Edit: Extra boon with this is that you can DMM:Persist wizard spells too (at -2 CL), have fun with that!

[333]

Dread Necromancer is a pretty awesome class, But I prefer spell casters that prepare there spells for the versatility (That's why I chose Elven generalist rather than specializing) I guess I'm just not a fan of the class, but if someone suggested a build I'd look it over.

I'll admit, I'm not committed to the true necromancer, and would love full caster progression(and bonus feats!) if its possible. I might consider forgetting TN and just going MT, maybe include some Ur-Priest shenanigans as the divine half of my spell casting, though that's more than a bit over-powered

This will probably be a low level campaign, though I would love to see it go higher.

[Pyromancer999]

Dread Necromancer is a pretty awesome class, But I prefer spell casters that prepare there spells for the versatility (That's why I chose Elven generalist rather than specializing) I guess I'm just not a fan of the class, but if someone suggested a build I'd look it over.


If you really want a good necromancer, odds are you'll have to specialize. Hence, why I would suggest using the Dread Necromancer class. You know every spell on your sizable spell list, and most of it is necromancy spells. It's a pretty good deal. Plus, if your DM allows homebrew, you get some of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59582)for free as a Dread Necromancer, and can also take a feat or two for more.

[Madara]

I suggest a master of shrouds (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3310.0) build

Cleric 2/ Wizard 1/ MoS X
or
Archevist 2/ Dread Necromancer 1/ MoS* pick this one for options because of Archevist

Early Entry nets you awesome Debuffing abilities, and it access at the levels of play you are at. As the MoS guide will tell you, most enemies won't even be able to hit your incorporeal minions. Both are equally MAD unless you use the feat to drop some of the MAD. Your spellcasting will have a wide variety, but will lack higher level spells. If you go Archevist, you have access to so many spells, so the low level casting doesn't matter.

[Menteith]

I suggest a master of shrouds (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3310.0) build

Cleric 2/ Wizard 1/ MoS X
or
Archevist 2/ Dread Necromancer 1/ MoS* pick this one for options because of Archevist

Early Entry nets you awesome Debuffing abilities, and it access at the levels of play you are at. As the MoS guide will tell you, most enemies won't even be able to hit your incorporeal minions. Both are equally MAD unless you use the feat to drop some of the MAD. Your spellcasting will have a wide variety, but will lack higher level spells. If you go Archevist, you have access to so many spells, so the low level casting doesn't matter.

I'm a fan of using Human Paragon for Master of Shrouds. A single level of another caster for the +2 Will saves isn't that fantastic unless you have a very specific goal in mind, while Human Paragon has the same casting progression, but also nets you a bonus feat and some sexy skills. It can be useful.

[Madara]

I'm a fan of using Human Paragon for Master of Shrouds. A single level of another caster for the +2 Will saves isn't that fantastic unless you have a very specific goal in mind, while Human Paragon has the same casting progression, but also nets you a bonus feat and some sexy skills. It can be useful.

Which you don't get at 1st level paragon, which is the only level you take for Early Entry. Its nice for later play. However, you'd have to use Cleric with Human Paragon to have the divine casting and rebuking.

Since he's at lower level play, I figure its more useful to have the extra options. Warlock would also work nicely for some easy and consistent abilities.

[333]

Master of shrouds actually isn't bad, I'll give it another look, then I might be willing to give up my wizard spell casting in exchange for an army of shadows and wraiths. would it be possible (Or smart) to combine master of shrouds with Master of the Uttercold? or are does an archivist/cleric not have the blasting power to make it useful?

[Arcanist]

True Necromancer Theurge
Wizard/1 Cleric/3 MT/10 TN/6

Arcane:16 (8th level spells)
Divine: 17 (9th level spells)

Prerequisites:
Rebuke Undead
Death Domain
Any non-good
Knowledge Arcane/Religion 6 @ 4th level then 8 at 14th level
Spell Focus (Necromancy) @ 15th level

Easy to fulfill but damn near annoying to find a god/demon lord/archdevil that doesn't suck whom gives the Death Domain... Most would just craft there own domain but me? Nah i'm a classic man... :smalltongue:

I recommend Divine Defiance (Sacrifice turnings/rebukes to counter spells as an immediate action? Oh god yes! :smallamused:

The person who built that True Necromancer was a genius :smallamused:

[Madara]

Master of shrouds actually isn't bad, I'll give it another look, then I might be willing to give up my wizard spell casting in exchange for an army of shadows and wraiths. would it be possible (Or smart) to combine master of shrouds with Master of the Uttercold? or are does an archivist/cleric not have the blasting power to make it useful?

It depends on your level, you're already feat-strapped for early entry, and you'd get the most out of summoning/debuffing focus. The archivist certainly can have the blasting power(Super Spell Access Activate!), but blasting is low-op which is why it isn't usually recommended. You won't be good at having a super large army of skeleton mooks, instead you'll have a gang of high-skilled debuffing master shadows! At low level, you can dominate, up until about level 7-8 when your summoning falls behind the curve.

[Menteith]

Which you don't get at 1st level paragon, which is the only level you take for Early Entry. Its nice for later play. However, you'd have to use Cleric with Human Paragon to have the divine casting and rebuking.

Since he's at lower level play, I figure its more useful to have the extra options. Warlock would also work nicely for some easy and consistent abilities.

Cleric 1 Human Paragon 2 gives the Will Save, and equal casting with the bonus feat.

[Zomg Zombies]

I suggest a master of shrouds (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3310.0) build

Cleric 2/ Wizard 1/ MoS X
or
Archevist 2/ Dread Necromancer 1/ MoS* pick this one for options because of Archevist

Early Entry nets you awesome Debuffing abilities, and it access at the levels of play you are at. As the MoS guide will tell you, most enemies won't even be able to hit your incorporeal minions. Both are equally MAD unless you use the feat to drop some of the MAD. Your spellcasting will have a wide variety, but will lack higher level spells. If you go Archevist, you have access to so many spells, so the low level casting doesn't matter.

If you take Dynamic Priest with archivist you will be SAD with DN, to get to the good stuff sooner I'd suggest using the precocious apprentice/variable spellcasting trick; do 1 archivist/1 dread necromancer/2 mystic theurge/10 master of shrouds, though you'll need to use flaws too, if you can squeeze shadow familiar into the progression somewhere you can even top it off with Master of Shadow.

At 20 you're looking at CL 17, lvl 9 spell, a gaggle of incorporial goons flitting about, one permanent incorporial, on top of the usual pile 'o bodies laying about.

If you really want lots of oodles of armies of dead things, the best way is to capitalize the 'undead caps per class' clause.

To fill you in, incase you're of the 0.000001% out there that hasn't heard of this, it starts with a little spell called Animate Dead. Animate Dead is both arcane and divine, and it has a cap to the maximum number of undead that can be controlled set at 4 HD/caster level. Wizards of at least 7th level cast the spell, got their 28+HD, and it was good. Clerics of at least 5th level cast the spell, got their 20+HD, and it was also good. Suddenly, a Necromancer realizes 'wait a dang minute! I have both arcane and divine Animate Dead spells! Now what's my limit cap?' *head explodes* From then on, people have forgotten how caster level dependent caps work and have argued over this since. One side said the highest level should determine the cap, using a bastardized stacking rule, the other said each class is different, they should have different caps. Sadly this side hasn't been heard, and the debate still continues.

This build uses the fact that each class that gets animate dead has a separate cap to the total number you can control, there are three problems though:
1) it uses third party material, and flaws
2) it slides to the cheesy side
3) levelling this class is like pushing a boulder off a cliff; it takes tremendous effort to get going, but once it does, watch out, it will splatter almost anything over everything

1 wizard/1 dread necromancer/1 cleric/1 necromancer°/1 mystic theurge/1 ultimate magnus/ 14 true necromancer

«notes: the mystic theurge is tied to the wizard and cleric, the ultimate magnus is tied to the dread necromancer and the necromancer, and the true necromancer is tied to the mystic theurge and ultimate magnus»

F: fell animate
F: tomb-tainted soul
H: precocious apprentice
1: dynamic priest
3: alternative source spell
6: spell focus: necromancy
9: aligned theurgy (evil)
12: corpsecrafter
15: destructive retribution
18: deathly chill

° necromancer is from 'Secret college of necromancy' from green robin

At 20 you will only have a CL of 14, so your max level spell will be 7th, but you will have a lot of them; and all [evil] description spells add together the caster levels of all the classes that have them in their spell lists. That's a lot. And when you consider animate dead is an evil spell, and you're darn tootin' it's on all four spell lists (and so does summon undead, fyi) which means each animate dead spell has a whopping CL of 60! That's 240 HD of zombie fun per class... we can see where this goes. When you just gotta raise the country side...

Oh, and if a DM grumbles about the feats unlocking the theurge just as you scrape by the skill requirements, look at them in the eye and say "I'm roleplaying a necromancer, and you're begrudging my use of underhanded shortcuts to greater power?"

[Psyren]

Dread Necromancer is a pretty awesome class, But I prefer spell casters that prepare there spells for the versatility (That's why I chose Elven generalist rather than specializing) I guess I'm just not a fan of the class, but if someone suggested a build I'd look it over.

Try Death Master from Dragon Compendium - they prepare spells and are also much better at necromancy than a TN.

They also get the same free lichdom that DN gets at the capstone.

[papr_weezl8472]

There's a joke to be made here about the Thread Necromancer class, I'm sure.

[JungleChicken]

For the "I am become death" quote. Wouldn't a wizard with maximized AoE damage spells be a much much better fit?