Bard Optimization: Song of the Heart Question

[ExtravagantEvil]

Often times in Optimization circles, I hear people using ECS Bards to get rid of their Fascinate Class feature (and as such suggestion) to gain Song of the Heart for free, however, on google searches it isn't covered in the Bard Handbook on the Gleemax page, or anywhere else.

Can someone explain to me the origins of this trick, otherwise it feels illegal to me, and I like knowing these tricks to make Bard better.

[prufock]

Can you cite an example of where you've heard this? It's new to me.

[Little Brother]

ECS lets bards trade away a music when they get it for a bonus feat from a certain list. Page 34, under the title "Music of Creation."

[ExtravagantEvil]

Okay, so do you still have to qualify for the feat? I presume so, but I just want to make sure.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"A bard can take these feats any time she would normally gain a feat, or can choose one of them as a bonus feat instead of gaining a new form of bardic music at 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, or 18th level."

It doesn't say anywhere that you don't have to meet the prerequisites for a given feat, so it should be presumed that you do. That means you can't trade out Inspire Competence at 3rd, since it's a prerequisite for Song of the Heart.

Fascinate can be traded out for quite a few alternate class features, namely Healing Hymn from Complete Champion. Since you'll be trading out Suggestion anyway, there's no reason to keep Fascinate around.

Check out this handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=okvm4q4tvpc4iv6a8tr32vlnm1&topic=8284.0) specifically for most of your best options.

You made a triple-post, you can click 'edit' and at the top there's an option to delete a message.

[ExtravagantEvil]

Does anyone have anymore advice, because I'm building a bard, who needs to cover a LOT of party roles and it's driving me mad. I'm not sure what level I'll reach by the end, but I need to be both the party healer, caster and buffer.

It's a mess.

I know I need the feats:
Versatile Spellcaster
Song of the Heart
Words of Creation
Melodic Casting
Lingering Melody

And I want to get them as soon as possible. I'm dipping 2 levels of Paladin of Freedom, wanting to get Charisma to Saves, help combat, and fluff wise helps justify Words of Creation.

I've got so many jobs to cover I'm a little lost, so any advice would be appreciated.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make everyone in the party get a Healing Belt (MIC), that should cover in-combat emergency healing. The party should all contribute to getting some Wands of low-level heals to fix everyone between encounters, a 1st level wand costs 15 gp per charge. A Wand of Lesser Vigor (SpC) is 11 hp per 15 gp, or a Wand of Cure Light Wounds is 1d8+1 hp per 15 gp. You'll probably be stuck with the Cure Light wand, unless you want to UMD the other one. The party should also all contribute to a Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC).

Don't bother wasting a feat on Lingering Song. If you have Melodic Casting you won't ever have to stop singing, or if you want to use two types of music you can get a +1 Harmonizing (MIC) weapon and it will maintain a song for you for ten rounds, plus the normal five more rounds after it ends.

The Paladin dip is probably not worth it. If you want to establish an exalted status early, pick up Nymph's Kiss (BoED) at 1st level. Consider taking Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) , which gets better base saves and it would be fitting with Nymph's Kiss. Consider picking up Greenbound Summoning (LEoF) and getting a Ring of the Beast (CC), so you can make a Greenbound Dire Bat from a 1st level spell slot and it can immediately use its Wall of Thorns and then either melee or cast Entangle every round. That will also allow you to summon a Unicorn from a 3rd level spell slot, which can put out a lot of healing, neutralize poison, and can aid against extraplanar foes with its Magic Circle.

Use Silverbrow Human from Dragon Magic for your race. Go (Savage) Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8. Get the Healing Hymn ACF (CC) in place of Fascinate, it adds your Perform ranks to any healing spell you cast (but not from a wand), so Cure Minor Wounds can get a lot of mileage. Get Spellbreaker Song (CM) in place of Countersong, it's just better. Take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), get Melodic Casting, Nymph's Kiss, Versatile Spellcaster, and Dragonfire Inspiration at 1st, Greenbound Summoning at 3rd, Words of Creation at 6th, replace Suggestion with Song of the Heart, Lyric Spell at 9th, and whatever else you want after that. Get a Badge of Valor (MIC) asap and pick Inspirational Boost (SpC) as soon as you get 1st level spells. Haste and Glitterdust are going to be your most useful spells until you hit Sublime Chord, or you can UMD a Runestaff (MIC) to get access to any Sorcerer spells (Wings of Cover!).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Does anyone have anymore advice, because I'm building a bard, who needs to cover a LOT of party roles and it's driving me mad. I'm not sure what level I'll reach by the end, but I need to be both the party healer, caster and buffer.

It's a mess.

I know I need the feats:
Versatile Spellcaster
Song of the Heart
Words of Creation
Melodic Casting
Lingering Melody

And I want to get them as soon as possible. I'm dipping 2 levels of Paladin of Freedom, wanting to get Charisma to Saves, help combat, and fluff wise helps justify Words of Creation.

I've got so many jobs to cover I'm a little lost, so any advice would be appreciated.

What the heck is everyone else doing?

You can shave those feats down. Get a Harmonizing (+1 property) Crystal Echoblade (specific weapon) as soon as possible. Both are in the MIC. Crystal Echoblade says when you're benefiting from your inspire courage, you deal +1/2 level in damage per hit, IIRC. Harmonzing says if you cease performing, the weapon continues to carry on the song for you as if you were performing it for 10 additional rounds (and inspire courage lingers a bit after you stop as it is, so that's a LOT of rounds total). With Harmonizing property, you no longer need Melodic Casting nor Lingering Melody. Just let the sword take over the tune for you.
Versatile Spellcaster is nice, but not required if you find yourself pressed for feats, still.

[ExtravagantEvil]

The major issue is that the DM is not familiar with MIC, and will most likely disallow Dragon Magazine.

I'd have gone Silverbrow, but he disallowed it, and thought the logic behind DFI was silly.

I was considering the Wand of Cure Light and the standard tricks.
I'm not sure whether he will consider Harmonizing Crystal Echoblades to be worthy of consideration. Which is why I feel feat pressed, because I'll need access to Buffs I'n forms of spell, and I mainly want Melodic Casting for Perform checks to be my Concentration checks for spells.

The major thing is that I am the party's ONLY Caster, and the Buffer.
Bard fit my role well on both fronts.

We have A TWF/Shield bash fighter
A Paladin of Tyranny
A Kobold Thief
And a Half Orc Monk Grappler.

No one at the table likes casting but me :smallannoyed:

I'll look into Nymph's Kiss, and still invest I'n Words of Creation, I'll pick up the Song of the Heart at 3rd level, and I'm not sure whether he'll allow flaws.

If I could, I'd just take all the feats I needed en masse and be a happy camper and wait for a little to snag the rest.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Given how poorly optimized all the others are, unless you don't expect the DM to cater to their frailty with easier challenges, you should be able to get by with just some optimization and have the group turn out fine.

Try to get the DM familiar w/ MIC, though. It's a great book! How is he with spell compendium? That has the Inspirational Boost spell for another +1 to inspire courage...

[ExtravagantEvil]

I think he'd find the Inspirational Boost feat agreeable, and I've turned the Badge of Valor into a plot point for my character, so it can be seamlessly included.

I agree, I might want to tone it down a tad, but It still feels off not doing a good job at such a basic background trick as Inspire Courage Buffs.

I'll get a lot of these Optimization Questions answered hopefully face to face this week or this Sunday, and honestly, hope it turns out for the best.

I'll talk to him about allowing MIC, and toss him my copy. Some of the items in there are fun, so I think he can be wooed over.

So, how my build is progressing is seemig to be (in terms of feats)
1: Melodic Casting
1B: Versatile Spellcaster (need to keep my casting decent and funnels inspirational boost when I get it)
3: Song of the Heart
6: Word of Creation

Given the low op nature of the group I might be able to afford a PoF Dip, and then head into Virtuoso, but going into the Seeker of the Song sounds like a good idea regardless.

[Jarian]

I really doubt you'll need Words of Creation in a lowish-op group. If you really want it (and want to keep it), I suggest taking the most moderated approach and only have it affect the base values of the songs, before any other adjustments. It's still twice as good as Song of the Heart even so.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm guessing that since you're the only "real" caster, the group doesn't usually need/use magic support, so you're probably good on that front with maybe a few basic utility spells, maxed UMD, your good Charisma, and some scrolls/wands, just in case. I once joined a group as the only caster, felt the need to cover a bajillion roles at once, and it turned out they didn't encounter many obstacles that needed magic.

Good thinking on getting everyone to chip in for the healing items. If you don't chip in, you're left to die, then looted. Be sure to cultivate some serious balls, and establish yourself as a decision-maker in case the Paladin starts whining about looting your friends (That way his only real options are to suck it up or leave). There's nothing worse than some idiot forcing you to bury 100k of gold with your fallen comrade. Sometimes, I think that's how all those tombs ended up full of treasure in the first place (and why grave-robbing is so profitable); no one recycles equipment, so they just bury it with its last weilder, no matter how stupid or costly that is.

You'll be the party face, so maxing your social skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, maybe Disguise if you're a good adventurer and have a Hat of Disguise, then Intimidate if you have the ranks to spare), plus Glibness and your massive Charisma will cover that. For all the skills no one wants to put ranks into, Bardic Knack (ACF, replaces Bardic Knowledge) could cover it; just put one rank into the trained-only skills and you'll have some pretty decent modifiers (half level, round up in most of these is nothing to sneeze at). You'll also be the only one with ranks in Spellcraft, so there's that too. Bardic Knack or Bardic Knowledge will mostly cover your Knowledge needs.

If creatures with the Dragonborn template (+0 LA, +2 Con, -2 Dex, Dragonblood Subtype, take the Wings aspect) aren't super-persecuted, you could try running that by the DM. Con boosts and (Ex) flight are always nice, especially if you don't have much use for a high Dex anyway. If your group actually uses Flight Maneuverability rules, you can take a Pectoral of Flight (Dragon Magic) or take Improved Maneuverability (Draconomnomnomicon) I think Dragonborn look silly, but the Kobold and you massive Cha will make you look cool by comparison.

For establishing LG-ness for that [Exalted] feat, being the Paladin's best buddy will be points in your favor. Maaybe a Phylactery of Faithfulness if the DM is a douche about it and doesn't give alignment warnings.

[moritheil]

What the heck is everyone else doing?

My thoughts exactly.


Be sure to cultivate some serious balls, and establish yourself as a decision-maker in case the Paladin starts whining about looting your friends (That way his only real options are to suck it up or leave). There's nothing worse than some idiot forcing you to bury 100k of gold with your fallen comrade.

The LE Paladin of Tyranny? Something tells me he or she won't be the first to object. :smallcool:

[Gwendol]

Don't forget Alter Self! That will sure be your friend if things go south.

[Dexam]

Don't bother wasting a feat on Lingering Song. If you have Melodic Casting you won't ever have to stop singing, or if you want to use two types of music you can get a +1 Harmonizing (MIC) weapon and it will maintain a song for you for ten rounds, plus the normal five more rounds after it ends.



Harmonzing says if you cease performing, the weapon continues to carry on the song for you as if you were performing it for 10 additional rounds (and inspire courage lingers a bit after you stop as it is, so that's a LOT of rounds total). With Harmonizing property, you no longer need Melodic Casting nor Lingering Melody. Just let the sword take over the tune for you.

Can someone confirm for me: does the Harmonizing property actually do as described above? The text from MIC reads "One round after you begin a bardic music effect that allows or requires continued use or concentration... the weapon picks up and continues the per*formance flawlessly for 10 rounds, until you start another bardic music effect, or until you command it to end as a swift (mental) action." (emphasis added).

My reading is that the 10 round effect starts the round after you start Inspire Courage (so 10 rounds plus 5 lingering, as per Biffoniacus_Furiou's statement), and stops for one bardic music effect as soon as you start a second effect. If you're trying to stack two types of bardic music effects (for example standard Inspire Courage and a Dragonfire Inspiration), the Harmonizing would only work for a maximum of 5 rounds (i.e. the lingering duration of the first effect). My understanding of the Lingering Song feat is that it would allow 9 rounds of IC/DFI stacking.
Can someone please correct me if I'm wrong?

[Goldfly]

Does anyone have anymore advice, because I'm building a bard, who needs to cover a LOT of party roles and it's driving me mad. I'm not sure what level I'll reach by the end, but I need to be both the party healer, caster and buffer.

It's a mess.

I know I need the feats:
Versatile Spellcaster
Song of the Heart
Words of Creation
Melodic Casting
Lingering Melody

And I want to get them as soon as possible. I'm dipping 2 levels of Paladin of Freedom, wanting to get Charisma to Saves, help combat, and fluff wise helps justify Words of Creation.

I've got so many jobs to cover I'm a little lost, so any advice would be appreciated.

It might honestly be worth it to go Fochlucan Lyrist, from Complete Adventurer. The ability to stack Druid and Bard casting advancement, with so many roles being required of you, could prove to be very useful.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Can someone confirm for me: does the Harmonizing property actually do as described above? The text from MIC reads "One round after you begin a bardic music effect that allows or requires continued use or concentration... the weapon picks up and continues the per*formance flawlessly for 10 rounds, until you start another bardic music effect, or until you command it to end as a swift (mental) action." (emphasis added).

My reading is that the 10 round effect starts the round after you start Inspire Courage (so 10 rounds plus 5 lingering, as per Biffoniacus_Furiou's statement), and stops for one bardic music effect as soon as you start a second effect. If you're trying to stack two types of bardic music effects (for example standard Inspire Courage and a Dragonfire Inspiration), the Harmonizing would only work for a maximum of 5 rounds (i.e. the lingering duration of the first effect). My understanding of the Lingering Song feat is that it would allow 9 rounds of IC/DFI stacking.
Can someone please correct me if I'm wrong?

Sounds about right. I wasn't advocating song stacking w/ Harmonizing. I was saying to use it in place of Lingering and Melodic, to save 2 feats...