WoTC doesn't read their own books

[lunar2]

The authors of the various monster manuals definitely didn't do even the slightest comparison between various similar monsters, or else this would have never happened.


FIRE GIANT
Large Giant (Fire)
Hit Dice: 15d8+75 (142 hp)
Initiative: –1
Speed: 30 ft. in half plate armor (6 squares); base speed 40 ft.
Armor Class: 23 (–1 size, –1 Dex, +8 natural, +7 half-plate armor) touch 8, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+25
Attack: Greatsword +20 melee (3d6+15) or slam +20 melee (1d4+10) or rock +10 ranged (2d6+10 plus 2d6 fire)
Full Attack: Greatsword +20/+15/+10 melee (3d6+15) or 2 slams +20 melee
(1d4+10) or rock +10 ranged (2d6+10 plus 2d6 fire)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rock throwing
Special Qualities: Immunity to fire, low-light vision, rock catching, vulnerability to cold
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +4, Will +9
Abilities: Str 31, Dex 9, Con 21, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 11
Skills: Climb +9, Craft (any one) +6, Intimidate +6, Jump +9, Spot +14
Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack
Environment: Warm mountains
Organization: Solitary, gang (2–5), band (6–9 plus 35% noncombatants
plus 1 adept or cleric of 1st or 2nd level), hunting/raiding party (6–9 plus 1 adept or sorcerer of 3rd–5th level plus 2–4 hell hounds and 2–3 trolls or ettins), or tribe (21–30 plus 1 adept, cleric, or sorcerer of 6th or 7th level plus 12–30 hell hounds, 12–22 trolls, 5–12 ettins, and 1–2 young red dragons)
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +4


Sand Giant
Large Giant (Earth, Fire)
Hit Dice: 15d8+75 (142 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), burrow 10 ft.
Armor Class: 28 (–1 size, +5 Dex, +11 natural, +3 masterwork studded leather) touch 14, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+23
Attack: Scimitar +19 melee (1d8+8/15–20); or sand blaster (see text)
Full Attack: Scimitar +19/+14/+9 melee, or sand blaster
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Sand blaster, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Heat shimmer, immunity to fire, low-light vision, vulnerability to cold
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +12, Will +10
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 21, Con 21, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12
Skills: Hide +1*, Knowledge (nature) +11, Climb +29, Listen +12, Spot +12, Survival +12* (+14 in aboveground natural environments)
Feats: Cleave, Improved Critical (scimitar), Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Environment: Warm deserts
Organization: Solitary, gang (2–5), band (6–9 plus 35% noncombatants), settlement 10–40 sand giants plus 1 monarch and 3–4 fighters of 3rd–5th level)
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +4

sand giants have 4 less strength, 12 higher dexterity, the same constitution, the same intelligence, 2 higher wisdom, and 2 higher charisma. their natural armor is 3 higher, they get a couple of spell like abilities, and a better ranged weapon. both giants have the same HD, CR, and LA, and yet the sand giant is clearly much more powerful.

I'd heard that monster manual 3 was off with CRs and LAs, but this is just weird.

[Eonir]

WOTC early in 3.5 was under the assumptions (and still is probably) that strength is a god stat. That is why some of the early races with strength bonuses (half orc, wood elf, et al) take penalties to TWO mental stats. Perhaps that 4 extra strength was worth it too them. Maybe it's just a mistake:smallannoyed:

It's silly really.

[Venusaur]

If you think that is bad, check out the MM2, especially the Adamantine horror. Implosion, Disjunction, and Disintegrate at will on a CR 9 monster. Yeah.

[nedz]

BUT 4 less strength !
Which in the minds of the developers makes the monsters about the same.

Actually CR is very flakey, but even if it wasn't you could be looking at values of CR between 9.6 and 10.4 with both being rounded to the same value.

[Little Brother]

If you think that is bad, check out the MM2, especially the Adamantine horror. Implosion, Disjunction, and Disintegrate at will on a CR 9 monster. Yeah.Or the omniscient 18th-level caster Weirds. Or everything else in that book.

I remember a thread a while back going through and trying to re-CR the whole MMII.

That said, I've always wanted to throw the Adamantine Horror at some PCs.

[BlueEyes]

Is this the "State the obvious" week or something? :smallconfused:

[Qwertystop]

Or the omniscient 18th-level caster Weirds. Or everything else in that book.

I remember a thread a while back going through and trying to re-CR the whole MMII.

That said, I've always wanted to throw the Adamantine Horror at some PCs.

I still say the Teratomorph is best/worst.

[Drelua]

You think those giants are bad? One of the monster manuals has a monster with CL 20 Shapechange as an at-will SLA. It's CR? 4. It's hard to look at something like that and not think that somebody must have been drinking on the job.

[eggs]

The Fire Giant isn't strictly worse - between its fire damage and strength, it does somewhere around 14 damage per attack more than the Sand Giant.

But yeah, it's pretty clear Wizards' freelancers don't always read each others' work. And they aren't always cognizant of their own.

[Little Brother]

I still say the Teratomorph is best/worst.That thing is just nasty. Not as lethal as some things, but still, that's just brutal...

I still think Weirds are worse. Omniscience makes them nastier, purely 'cuz they can chessmaster out.

And they're only CR 12? What the hell? That's worse than the horror...

[Arcanist]

Is this the "State the obvious" week or something? :smallconfused:

That was last week, but in all seriousness. Most of the cheese and shenanigans that 3.5 has is because WoTC doesn't read there own books and then think back to themselves "is it really a smart idea to have Implosion, Disjunction, and Disintegrate on a CR9 monster?"

[Endarire]

Also, things change. WotC may have learned the Fire Giant or similar creature was too weak and changed things for MMIII.

[kardar233]

You think those giants are bad? One of the monster manuals has a monster with CL 20 Shapechange as an at-will SLA. It's CR? 4. It's hard to look at something like that and not think that somebody must have been drinking on the job.

That would be the Malaugrym from Monsters of Faerun. To make it worse, it's using the 3.0 Shapechange text, which allows you to change into "any
creature less than deity status or a single object". No HD restrictions. Look through the ELH and go wild.

Oh, it's got a really obvious weakness of DC20 Spot check to see that its eyes are golden so it's not really the creature in question. OH NO. It's not the real Tarrasque, it's just one completely identical with much better mental stats!

[Qwertystop]

That was last week, but in all seriousness. Most of the cheese and shenanigans that 3.5 has is because WoTC doesn't read there own books and then think back to themselves "is it really a smart idea to have Implosion, Disjunction, and Disintegrate on a CR9 monster?"
I believe the thought process was along the lines of "Well, it's CR 9. I'm rushed. What else is labeled as being Level 9? Oh, here's these spells! I'll just give it a few of those."

You think those giants are bad? One of the monster manuals has a monster with CL 20 Shapechange as an at-will SLA. It's CR? 4. It's hard to look at something like that and not think that somebody must have been drinking on the job.

Personally, I would say that the EL of an encounter with that is equal to the EL of an encounter with all of the things it turns into, plus the creature itself, which is CR 4.

[FaradayCage]

Also, things change. WotC may have learned the Fire Giant or similar creature was too weak and changed things for MMIII.

This. My understanding is that the MMIII was a point of significant revision to CRs and monster design.

[sonofzeal]

Agreed that MM3 was generally better-balanced than MM1, which often means things that were too weak for their CR in MM1 get overshadowed in MM3.

Also, as others have stated, Fire Giants do get a significantly nastier swing. Sand Giants are more well-rounded opponents (part of MM3's general improvement), but the difference between 3d6+15 and 1d8+8 is just a little significant, don't you think?

If a Fire Giant is getting a full-attack off, it's going to do brutal damage. If not, it'll die like a chump. Sand Giants aren't quite so swingy, they've got more options but few of them are quite as overwhelming as the Fire Giant's sheer melee damage potential. I wouldn't say it's an unfair comparison.



Also, it's MM2 and MM4 that are generally disliked/distrusted. MM3 is usually considered one of the best as far as these things go. There's still some issue, but it's the most reliable we've seen.

[herrhauptmann]

That would be the Malaugrym from Monsters of Faerun. To make it worse, it's using the 3.0 Shapechange text, which allows you to change into "any
creature less than deity status or a single object". No HD restrictions. Look through the ELH and go wild.

Oh, it's got a really obvious weakness of DC20 Spot check to see that its eyes are golden so it's not really the creature in question. OH NO. It's not the real Tarrasque, it's just one completely identical with much better mental stats!

Well it was a 3.0 book.
I Hate the Malaugrym. It's like Greenwood went on a tentacle fetish or something. And since the novels have the Malaugrym always trying to kill the chosen of mystra, they needed a powerful ability to make it possible for them to even appear a threat to the Deus Ex chosen.

[Annos]

In RotD one of the typo's was in the feat: Draconic toughness, instead of saying draconic feats it said something else.:smalleek:

[Kuulvheysoon]

In RotD one of the typo's was in the feat: Draconic toughness, instead of saying draconic feats it said something else.:smalleek:

...My copy of Races of the Dragon appears to be correct. References Draconic feats and everything. :smallannoyed:

[begooler]

This is the MM2 thread someone mentioned (sorry if it already got linked and I just don't know how to read...)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187046

edit: Here's the page in the thread with the most up to date list of monsters that got completed:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187046&page=17

[Arbane]

If you think that is bad, check out the MM2, especially the Adamantine horror. Implosion, Disjunction, and Disintegrate at will on a CR 9 monster. Yeah.

Are we _sure_ they didn't just leave off the '1'?

[sonofzeal]

Are we _sure_ they didn't just leave off the '1'?
That's a common observation, but I'm not sure it'd hold up. The thing would be incredibly fragile by lvl 19 standards. IIRC its defences at least are relatively appropriate for lvl 9, meaning that a lvl 19 character character could kill it by sneezing. And it only gets a single standard action in a turn, so the at-will portion never even comes up.

Then again, Disjunction is the sort of thing that gets books thrown....

[Little Brother]

After running some tests, I'd put the Adamantine Horror at CR 13-ish. Brutally strong, yes, but fragile enough that it can't do too much damage. With allies and played smart it could cause a TPK, but not likely, and it is supposed to be a BBEG of sorts.

Adding disjunction was a **** move, though.

[Flickerdart]

Well it was a 3.0 book.
You don't even have to go that far to find obscure shapechanging powers. Check out the Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm), a CR7 that can turn into any Large or smaller form. It's Alternate Form, but you still get the ability scores, so grab a Protean (STR 53 and 5 slams per round) and punch everything.