Poisonmaking and minor creation, am I missing something?

[Soranar]

Just about every text I see that mentions poisonmaking refers to minor creation + black lotus extract.

In theory this looks fine but it's specified that whatever you create only exists for a few minutes or hours (depending on your level and the spell or power that you're using).

And crafting a poison takes a long time (several days, weeks) if I understood the rules right

So I'd just like an explanation as to why that combo is assumed to work

[The Bandicoot]

My answer lies somewhere inbetween "It's magic" and "A wizard did it"

[Mithril Leaf]

Ahem. My time to shine.

You see, minor creation does NOT create the raw ingredients of the poison. It creates the finished poison itself, the craft check is so that you shape the finished product. In this way, it is almost as if it contained a fabricate which worked only on material which it summoned. At no point do you sit down and make the poison. It is part and parcel of the power to fabricate it during manifestion/casting.



You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate skill check to make a complex item

Poison is a complex item.

[Lateral]

Luckily, Black Lotus Extract is craftable at DC 35. It shouldn't be too hard to pump up Craft checks that high, with masterwork tools/magic items/Guidance of the Avatar.

[Fable Wright]

Ahem. My time to shine.

You see, minor creation does NOT create the raw ingredients of the poison. It creates the finished poison itself, the craft check is so that you shape the finished product. In this way, it is almost as if it contained a fabricate which worked only on material which it summoned. At no point do you sit down and make the poison. It is part and parcel of the power to fabricate it during manifestion/casting.

However, the DM may contest that; it creates nonliving nonmagical vegetable matter, and any DM might state that the poison requires non-plant matter components to enable the poison to work properly, or require additional extracts to increase the potency of the flower that may be from an animal or mineral source. In other words, questionably legal by RAW, no way you could get it on a table.

[Mithril Leaf]

However, the DM may contest that; it creates nonliving nonmagical vegetable matter, and any DM might state that the poison requires non-plant matter components to enable the poison to work properly, or require additional extracts to increase the potency of the flower that may be from an animal or mineral source. In other words, questionably legal by RAW, no way you could get it on a table.

While it is certainly reasonable for a DM to houserule that black-lotus extract contains ingredients other than black lotus, that would go rather against the definition of extract

a solid, viscid, or liquid substance extracted from a plant, drug, or the like, containing its essence in concentrated form.
Black-lotus extract contains precisely one thing, Black lotus. You may need more ingredients to create the poison, for example, as catalysts. However you certainly can produce plant matter, by RAW. It even seems vaguely RAI, seeing as it specifically stipulates you need to make a craft check, although I don't expect that to have much weight.
Also, you've got a radically different DM than I if he doesn't let you make poison with Minor Creation.

[Flickerdart]

Minor Creation lasts for hours per level, so let's say we have 24 hours to make use of it - some CL boosting gives us exactly a day to complete the process.

Black Lotus Extract costs 4500gp. Craft (Poisonmaking) makes progress in gold pieces. Since we only have one day, though, we need to beat 4500 seven times over, which is 31500. That means we need to hit Craft DC 180.

You may want to try a cheaper poison...

[FaradayCage]

Black-lotus extract contains precisely one thing, Black lotus.

Vanilla extract contains precisely one thing, vanilla. Also alcohol. And maybe propolyne glycol, food coloring, etc.

It's fairly reasonable to assert that preserving black lotus in the D&D universe required non-vegetable compounds.

[Soranar]

Sorry for the double post, I guess the forums are still a bit wonky.

I wanted a decent interpretation to houserule this since it seemed a tad overpowered, hitting a craft check 180 is pretty much what I had understood myself (didn't want to pull a fast one on my DM, I'm considered the rules lawyer of my group to actually prevent that kind of abuse since no one else can be bothered to figure it out).

Thank you for the answers people

[Morph Bark]

Minor Creation lasts for hours per level, so let's say we have 24 hours to make use of it - some CL boosting gives us exactly a day to complete the process.

Black Lotus Extract costs 4500gp. Craft (Poisonmaking) makes progress in gold pieces. Since we only have one day, though, we need to beat 4500 seven times over, which is 31500. That means we need to hit Craft DC 180.

You may want to try a cheaper poison...

Is the progress for poisonmaking calculated off a per-day process or per-week process? I thought I'd check how you got to a Craft DC of 180, so that others know why it is that.

If it is per-day, we need to hit a DC of 129, because 4500 / 35 = 128.571429, rounded up to 129. Check result multiplied by the DC for progress means we got it done in one day.

If it is per-week, we got it done in 7 days if we hit DC 129. If we want it done in just 1 day (well, 8 hours), we need to get a high enough check result to hit [result] * 35 = 31500. This means we need to get a check result of 31 500 / 35 = 900 if we don't speed it up somehow. Luckily, we can speed up the process by increasing the DC in steps of 10. Some experimentation with a calculator teaches me we can set the DC as high as 175 to need to get a check result just a little bit higher, because 31 500 / 175 = 180. So we set the DC at 175 and need to hit 180 to get Black Lotus Extract done in one day.


However, Psionic Minor Creation doesn't say you need to succeed on a high enough skill check to finish the item in one day. The power takes only a standard action to use, after all, and there's no way (without super cheese) you can finish Black Lotus Extract normally in just one round. Since it doesn't mention that, you just need to hit DC 35 here. Otherwise, any crafting with Minor Creation and the like is nigh-impossible, as you need to get your Craft modifiers up ridiculously high.


Vanilla extract contains precisely one thing, vanilla. Also alcohol. And maybe propolyne glycol, food coloring, etc.

It's fairly reasonable to assert that preserving black lotus in the D&D universe required non-vegetable compounds.

The point here is that you don't need to preserve it. Plus, modern vanilla extract might contain all those, but it didn't use to.

[Piggy Knowles]

Plus, modern vanilla extract might contain all those, but it didn't use to.

As far as I know, vanilla extract was always made with alcohol - it's how you extract the compounds that make it taste like vanilla. Some of the other compounds you find in modern vanilla extract may be recent, but not alcohol.

[Bonzai]

This kind of gets me on to a question that's been floating around my head a bit. What would an magic item cost, that could produce a coating of black lotus extract 3 times a day, but those coatings would only last about 24 hours?

Or conversly, a weapon enhancement that keeps a blade poisoned..

It's an idea that comes up now and then with assassins and rogues who would love to use poison, but hate having to break the bank re-stocking all the time.

[dextercorvia]

As far as I know, vanilla extract was always made with alcohol - it's how you extract the compounds that make it taste like vanilla. Some of the other compounds you find in modern vanilla extract may be recent, but not alcohol.

So, we use a plant based alcohol. It's not like they are hard to find...

[Salanmander]

So, we use a plant based alcohol. It's not like they are hard to find...

You're missing the point. The point was this: It is reasonable to state that something called "Z extract" may contain substances that are not found in Z.

[dextercorvia]

You're missing the point. The point was this: It is reasonable to state that something called "Z extract" may contain substances that are not found in Z.

Not really. The extract is the essential oils -- the technique to extract them might involve steeping them in alcohol, or it might just involve crushing or pressing the leaves or fruit, etc. That is unimportant, because the spell is allowing us to create the finished product -- without going through the usual process.

You could use it to make a small chair. Even though such a chair would have normally required a saw, hammer, and nails, and likely would contain glue, we can skip all of that and just make a chair.

[Salanmander]

Not really. The extract is the essential oils -- the technique to extract them might involve steeping them in alcohol, or it might just involve crushing or pressing the leaves or fruit, etc. That is unimportant, because the spell is allowing us to create the finished product -- without going through the usual process.

You could use it to make a small chair. Even though such a chair would have normally required a saw, hammer, and nails, and likely would contain glue, we can skip all of that and just make a chair.

Let me rephrase:

It is possible and entirely within reason for a DM to rule that "black lotus extract" contains some non-vegetable chemicals that are necessary for the poison to work. The fact that it has "extract" in the name doesn't mean a DM would be unreasonable for saying this.

[Mithril Leaf]

Let me rephrase:

It is possible and entirely within reason for a DM to rule that "black lotus extract" contains some non-vegetable chemicals that are necessary for the poison to work. The fact that it has "extract" in the name doesn't mean a DM would be unreasonable for saying this.

This is very much true. However, it would indeed be a house rule as the general internet consensus is that Black Lotus Extract does indeed contain only plant based material.

[sreservoir]

Let me rephrase:

It is possible and entirely within reason for a DM to rule that "black lotus extract" contains some non-vegetable chemicals that are necessary for the poison to work. The fact that it has "extract" in the name doesn't mean a DM would be unreasonable for saying this.

the fact that it has "extract" in the name does, however, imply that the only major constituent of the poison is the plant material. the rest very well might not be vegetable matter, to be sure -- but "extract" more or less implies that the rest is used essentially as part of a solvent.