Dual-Progression Classes

[willpell]

Why do people say Mystic Theurge et al are bad? Is this "bad" according to a definition that says that Wizard and Cleric are the most balanced classes in the game? Or is it "bad" as in "playing this is like playing a Truenamer only less satisfying"? Can feats like Practiced Spellcaster x2 save the Theurge, if the DM awards them for free as a way of making the build work?

[Amoren]

I don't think the argument is that they're bad, as in 'unplayable', but bad when compared to a straight wizard/cleric that didn't prestige class into mystic theurge. At the most dramatic end of the scale, you'll have a wizard 3/cleric 3/MT 1 compare to, say, a wizard 7, who's just got his 4th level spells while you're still utilizing 2nd. This wizard can then also prestige class into classes with actual class abilities to further enhance his powers, while the mystic theurge only has access to two spell lists, but he's still limited by the action economy.

With early progression, it gets a lot better. Still no class abilities, but getting the 18 levels of wizard or cleric casting with only one level delaying and some feats probably looks a lot better. Making yourself SAD would also probably help.

[AmberVael]

The Dual-Progression classes- that is, the typical dual magic progression classes- get a lot of flak not so much because you can't make a viable and versatile character with them, but because taking one is usually a drastic reduction of power for either of the classes it requires. Whether or not you can make a decently powered character with one feels irrelevant when you've given up a lot of the power you could have had. Just to give a metaphor, there's nothing wrong with a bag of candy, but if you only got it by giving away three other bags, you're probably going to feel a bit cheated.

When you have another caster in the party who didn't go the theurge route, it'll probably sting even a bit more.

And no, practiced caster for free might be nice, but the real problem is the loss of spell levels, which Practiced Caster will do nothing to help. The power lost is in that exponential progression, which a dual progression class almost inevitably stunts.

[Little Brother]

Why do people say Mystic Theurge et al are bad? Is this "bad" according to a definition that says that Wizard and Cleric are the most balanced classes in the game? Or is it "bad" as in "playing this is like playing a Truenamer only less satisfying"? Can feats like Practiced Spellcaster x2 save the Theurge, if the DM awards them for free as a way of making the build work?May I direct you to my sig?

Theurges are awesome. They can be ridiculously powerful. They can also play nice. They require just a bit of work, they aren't great unless you know what you're doing.

That said, the Yalfrawhatchamacallit/True Necro/Other "Dual" progression classes that lose millions of caster levels suck.

[Venusaur]

The MT is not bad, it just isn't as good as the wizard or cleric. Most people on this board have been playing for years, and want to talk about optimization. The MT is weaker than wizard or cleric, and falls in about the tier 2 range. Tier 2 games aren't as common as tier 1 or 3, and would be underpowered in a tier 1 game.

[Jarian]

In a standard tier 3 game, something like Wizard 3/Archivist 3/MT 10 (assuming from empirical evidence that most games take place between levels 6 and 15, with very low and very high levels being extreme outliers) works well enough to play with others. That is to say, it's a significant loss of power to the most potent classes, bringing them roughly into line with, say, Warblades and Swordsages.

In higher powered games, theurges can multiply the strength of casters, sometimes many times over. Exploiting the poor design of things like Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord, Dragon Magazine feats, etc., etc., and you can get caster levels in the 50s with hardly any (relative) effort.

It really depends what you want the theurge to do and what its intended power level is.

[Aeryr]

Mysthic Theurge is bad compared to wizards or clerics, or sorcerers, or favored souls or any full spell caster. They can be even bad compared to dread necromancers, beguilers or bards, that are solid T3.

Problems with the class: it requires (without early entry tricks) 3 levels of divine casting and arcane casting (at least). It doesn't have class features. It only has 10 levels so you will eventually have to take levels in other class. And since there aren't many arcane classes // divine classes that share attributes so it is MAD.

How can you solve that? Well using early entry tricks you can get into the class at level 4 (due to skill requirements). You can use two classes that use the same atribute (Wizard // Archivist I am looking at you). You can use other classes that have class features and would progress both spell casting abilities depending on RAW reading of the DM (Bamboo Spirit folk arcane hierophant or Legacy Champion).

Using those you can save the theurge, practiced spell caster isn't a boon imho, you should have more buffs on yourself than you can count. Once I played one and I had to use two sheets of paper to note down every buff on my character, and their interactions.

[Urpriest]

Dual-Progression classes are bad because spellcasting isn't a linear progression. Spells are targeted towards the levels they expect you to cast them: Charm Person when you're mostly fighting humanoids upgrades to Charm Monster when humanoids are mostly a distant memory, while Lesser Restoration upgrades to Heal and the like as status effects from monsters become more powerful. Every primary caster, from Tier 5 up to Tier 1, has spells tailored to the levels in this way. So if you delay your progression substantially with something like Mystic Theurge (sans early entry) or a half-progression class, you're not merely weakening your casting in a linear way to fit with lower-power classes: you're getting abilities that simply don't fit the level you're playing. And that's dramatically less useful.

[willpell]

EDIT - I didn't see Ur-Priest's post when I posted; it's a very on-point answer to my OP. Definitely something I'll be thinking about for the Cerebremancer in my game.

Sure, being a Wizard 4 and a Cleric 4 is not too impressive compared to being one of those at 7. But being a Wizard 13 and a Cleric 13 instead of one of those at 16 seems like it would be a better deal.


That said, the Yalfrawhatchamacallit/True Necro/Other "Dual" progression classes that lose millions of caster levels suck.

By "zillions" you apparently mean four, at least in the True Necro's case (I don't know what the first one you referenced is supposed to be, nor am I aware of any others, having read only a handful of PrCs). A Mystic Theurge 10 pretending to be a true Necro 10 would have two more levels on each of its classes, but wouldn't have the special abilities of the TN; whether those are worth giving up levels I couldn't speculate, but at least they're a thing you might want badly enough to suffer through the progression.

[Frog Dragon]

Sure, being a Wizard 4 and a Cleric 4 is not too impressive compared to being one of those at 7. But being a Wizard 13 and a Cleric 13 instead of one of those at 16 seems like it would be a better deal.

It may seem like it, but it doesn't actually happen. The wizard or cleric 16 still has major advantages compared to an equally leveled Mystic Theurge. At those levels, a single classed character is not running out of spells. At all. And the MT is still confined to lower level effects. Cleric/Wizard MT:s in particular have a problem with multiple ability dependency. They don't get as many bonus spell slots, they have weaker DC:s, and they cast one spell level behind the pure-classed wizard or cleric. And the action economy is at war with your theurge-ness.

It's not unplayable by any means. You're still a caster and casters rule. But you lose compared to your single-classed peers.

[Jarian]

But being a Wizard 13 and a Cleric 13 instead of one of those at 16 seems like it would be a better deal.

You might think so, but it very rarely - if ever - works out that way. By that level you have so many spells per day that it ceases to be an issue. It isn't the number or types of spells you have that limits you (for a given value of "limits", considering the classes), but rather the number of actions you can take. There are only so many spells you can burn through in a fight, and when a single higher level one can end the encounter, why would you want to use two?

Not to mention the lower overall save DCs and bonus spells you'd have from splitting your focus between Int and Wis.

Like I said above, you can make theurges work to make casters more powerful instead of less. Standard entry into Mystic Theurge just isn't one of those ways.

[Aeryr]

The Yathrinshee is one of the worst theurge prc, and it was the one referred above. On the True Necro...


you apparently mean four, at least in the True Necro's case

I could answer but I am just gonna quote K, because he explains it better.


Top Ten Reasons True Necromancers Are Bad

1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter.
2. You have to take the Death Domain as a Necromancer Cleric, which is a waste of a Domain Slot when you are trying to be good at Necromancy.
3. In the early levels, you postpone your access to Animate Dead by 4 levels.
4. At 8th level a True Necromancer can create, but not control Ghouls. A Cleric at that level can control but not create Ghouls. Guess which is better? At 11th level, the True Necromancer gets the ability to control Ghouls, and the Cleric gets the ability to create them, so there’s no point at which this is advantageous.
5. The only unique ability of the True Necromancer class is unimpressive. Desecrate is a great spell, but it’s also a second level spell.
6. True Necromancers eventually get a bonus to Rebuking – at 17th level they have a +1 bonus to their Rebuking level. But at 7th level they have a 3 level penalty to their Rebuking level. So at low levels when rebuking is good they can’t use it, and at high levels when Rebuking doesn’t matter they don’t care.
7. True Necromancers are always going to have underwhelming Save DCs. Between MAD and the fact that they are often forced to use spells that are 3 spell levels lower than what the single-classed casters can use, they’re going to be out enough Save DC that it shows. A lot.
8. As a True Necromancer you have all the disadvantages of both a Cleric (the gods can take away all your spellcasting at any time), and a Wizard (you have Arcane Spell Failure, preventing you from wearing good armor). Also, your BAB and HPs stink when compared to a Cleric.
9. Control pools from Animate Dead actually don’t accumulate between your two classes. It’ right in the spell, if you cast the spell it considers all undead you control from all castings of Animate Dead, not just your Arcane or just your Divine castings of the spell. Some people say differently, and some even quote CustServ, but when was the last time you won an argument with your DM using the line "some guy on a board said that CustServ told him....."?
10. There is almost no synergy between Cleric and Wizard Necromancy. Any synergy you desperately want to find could be replicated by just taking the Apprentice feat at first level and having some Use Magic Device. Get yourself a couple of Wizard Scrolls or something. It’s a better buy than setting 5 caster levels on fire. Smart cookies can even get the right spell effects off monsters for free, no less.

[Psyren]

What's more - the handful of good Wizard necromancy spells that Clerics can't (or don't want to) access through domains can be picked up through Divine Magician.

[Flickerdart]

The designers designed the game with certain assumptions in mind, and some of those assumptions involve the spells a party will have access to. Being two casters in one doesn't help you if you have another 3 levels to go before you can get answers to stuff that's coming online right now, so either the party needs another primary spellcaster or the DM will have to be even more careful with the CR system that they have to be already.

[LadyLexi]

I played in a game where no one else wanted to play a caster, they all really were into melee or bow or rogue characters and no one wanted anything to do with casting.

I went MT because I needed to fill both roles and my stats allowed for such a thing, My cleric side took care of the healing and I took all buff/utility on the wizard side. I wasn't the strongest, but I often had the right buffs or solution spells to assist the party with magical conundrums. It makes for a really solid backup that never makes the melee guys pissed off about out-powering them.

[erikun]

The biggest problems are that Wizard 3/Cleric 3 has noticably underpowered spells compared to a straight caster, and that you're done progressing one side after ten levels of prestige class. This may not be as big of a deal alongside the Fighter and Rogue, especially if you go through enough fights for the extra spell slots to matter, but Mystic Theurge feels lacking alongside most comparative spellcasters.

The fact that most people take Mystic Theurge to be a "Wizard who can cast Cleric spells" or a "Cleric or casts Wizard spells" or a "character who casts Wizard and Cleric spells" makes it a kick in the gut when they are considerably worse than the Cleric or Wizard.



There are some ways 'around' these problems. Early entry makes early levels not so bad. Stacking Theurges classes (taking two PrCs to extend the progression through 20th level) helps late-game. Rapid-progression classes on one side also help with qualifications and smoothing out the spell progress curve.

And then there's ignoring your expectations and just assuming that a Mystic Theurge just isn't a Wizard or Cleric, but something else... although that probably isn't the first response when looking at the class.

[willpell]

I could answer but I am just gonna quote K, because he explains it better.

Thanks! This is good insight, and will be vital if I eventually decide to revitalize the PRC with some adjustments - though there are enough other necromancer options that it's probably not worth bothering.


I played in a game where no one else wanted to play a caster, they all really were into melee or bow or rogue characters and no one wanted anything to do with casting. I went MT because I needed to fill both roles and my stats allowed for such a thing.

Neat! This sounds like a good justification for using the class, combined with skewing low on CR (which I usually do anyway; I also have a houserule that doubles all XP so there isn't so much of a problem with fighting undersized critters and getting slim XP rewards). As one who firmly agrees with W and C being overly strong, the idea of being both yet neither and ending up at a power level comparable to the "weak" classes appeals to me.

I'm thinking of going with Theurge for a Favored Soul I have who seems like he could be the type to pick up some Sorcerer; it'll be painful delaying entry into the class two levels longer, but the idea of having all that sponcasting eventually makes me want to consider it. The guy is a complete NPC type manipulator and intended to be filthy rich, so he could make a good villain for my game.

[Telonius]

I think one of the big problems with designing a Theurge build is that there's actually a pretty fine line between an underpowered character (compared to a straight-20 build), and a character that might as well be a Wizard//Cleric gestalt.

How many caster levels should the character lose in either class? Four is pretty clearly too many, and the general consensus is that three usually isn't worth it either. Two, then? 18/18 casting at level 20, if you double up on some of the dual-progression PrCs. You'd get 4 level 9 spells (two from each side). Which is exactly how many you'd get if you'd just had a single class. So you've lost no 9th-level spells, gained a bunch of lower level spells, and gained a whole lot of versatility, at the cost of whatever prerequisites (most of which you'd probably have taken anyway, if Mystic Theurge prereqs are any indication).

[willpell]

Again well put. Maybe three wouldn't be too bad if you got a few freebies. Spell Focus for that low DC? Something to help out with MAD? I'm sure there's a way to make it work.

One thing I definitely dislike is the True Necro's 14-level progression. It's just ugly to me. Taking 6 levels of Wiz and Cleric, 10 levels of Theurge, and 4 more levels of Wiz and/or Cleric (or Archmage or Hierophant or whatever) seems proper to me somehow.

[TuggyNE]

How many caster levels should the character lose in either class? Four is pretty clearly too many, and the general consensus is that three usually isn't worth it either. Two, then? 18/18 casting at level 20, if you double up on some of the dual-progression PrCs. You'd get 4 level 9 spells (two from each side). Which is exactly how many you'd get if you'd just had a single class. So you've lost no 9th-level spells, gained a bunch of lower level spells, and gained a whole lot of versatility, at the cost of whatever prerequisites (most of which you'd probably have taken anyway, if Mystic Theurge prereqs are any indication).

Also consider, as earlier mentioned, the amount of lag through your earlier career; if anything, that's probably more important, and is also harder to fine-tune.

[Little Brother]

Again well put. Maybe three wouldn't be too bad if you got a few freebies. Spell Focus for that low DC? Something to help out with MAD? I'm sure there's a way to make it work.

One thing I definitely dislike is the True Necro's 14-level progression. It's just ugly to me. Taking 6 levels of Wiz and Cleric, 10 levels of Theurge, and 4 more levels of Wiz and/or Cleric (or Archmage or Hierophant or whatever) seems proper to me somehow.If you are an illumian(Or are willing to nab DMM, which could be shuffled/retrained later) and take Able Learner, you could go Bard 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Theurge 10/Druid 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 6, because the 4th level spell Open Least Chakra lets you get Evasion. If you take Extend Spell, you can have it constantly up, to make sure you qualify as you level. Or, you could waste a feat on it at level 6, for Open Least Chakra.

Hope this helps.

[Wavelab]

A nice thing about theurges is that you can usually go crazy with casting. You can literally use up all of your wizards spells and still be able to handle a few more encounters. Sure you might not likely run out of spells, but the knowledge that you won't run out of spells is a calming factor for some people.

Not running out of spells is really nice if you're playing something like a cerebremancer. You can unload all your power points and completely destroy two encounters and then have spells to deal with the next two.

I love theurges, but only when I'm starting at a high enough level to be actually able to do something nice. At epic levels they get really nice since you have access to the things that epic level clerics and epic level wizards can do.

[Garwain]

while wizard/cleric is the obvious, theurges only begin to shine when coupled with fast progression classes. Throw in some early entry tricks and all the sudden, triple 9 builds are possible.

Triple 9
wizard 1/Savage Bard 1/Ardent 2/Cerebremancer 4/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer +2/Mystic Theurge 6

notesearly entry to cerebremancer due to precocious apprentice feat at level 1
savage bard provides bardic music and fort save to qualify for sublime chord and ur-priest
sourcesSublime Chord: Complete Arcane p60
Ur-Priest Complete Divine p70
Cerebremancer: Expanded Psychic Handbook
Psychic Theurge: online: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b
Mystic Theurge; Dungeon Master Guide
Savage Bard: Unearthed Arcana
Ardent: Complete Psionic
feat precocious apprentice: Complete Arcane p181

[Arcanist]

Anyone who is saying that dual progression classes are second rate compared to straight versions of the class have obviously never seen the eUR-Theurge (StP Erudite/9 Ur-Priest/2 Psychic Theurge/9) who is singing "Anything you can do I can do better" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfHBPusZg6E) to the Wizard, I'd like to see a straight Wizard be able to cast Arcane and Divine while manifest Psionics all at the same time :smallamused: So in addition to being god, your also batman, and CoDZilla... Now if only we could find a way to add Schrodinger's Wizard to that title... Right now, I can't (because I'm exhausted and sleepy)... I'm sure someone will think of something after I post this... :smalltongue:

[Aeryr]

If you are an illumian(Or are willing to nab DMM, which could be shuffled/retrained later) and take Able Learner, you could go Bard 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Theurge 10/Druid 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 6, because the 4th level spell Open Least Chakra lets you get Evasion. If you take Extend Spell, you can have it constantly up, to make sure you qualify as you level. Or, you could waste a feat on it at level 6, for Open Least Chakra.

Hope this helps.

Doesn't open least chakra last for 24h? Either way you will need the shape soulmeld feat (can't remember wich soulmeld granted it) and some way of getting perform as class skill. You don't really need druid in there, just convince one to teach you druidic language.

[Little Brother]

Anyone who is saying that dual progression classes are second rate compared to straight versions of the class have obviously never seen the eUR-Theurge (StP Erudite/9 Ur-Priest/2 Psychic Theurge/9) who is singing "Anything you can do I can do better" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfHBPusZg6E) to the Wizard, I'd like to see a straight Wizard be able to cast Arcane and Divine while manifest Psionics all at the same time :smallamused: So in addition to being god, your also batman, and CoDZilla... Now if only we could find a way to add Schrodinger's Wizard to that title... Right now, I can't (because I'm exhausted and sleepy)... I'm sure someone will think of something after I post this... :smalltongue:Doesn't get Arcane 9s. Arcane 9s>Psionic 9s. Admittedly, this Erudite can bust the action economy slightly better than the Wizard, but, at this level, the advantage is negligible, at best.

Overall, I'd stick with the Ur-Theurge, because of the superiority of Arcane 9s. Shapechange alone is god.

Doesn't open least chakra last for 24h? Either way you will need the shape soulmeld feat (can't remember wich soulmeld granted it) and some way of getting perform as class skill. You don't really need druid in there, just convince one to teach you druidic language.Yep. Extend it for 48 hours, for constant coverage.

Perform is why you take Bard at level 1. And there are no rules or guarantees for getting a Druid to teach you. Loremaster loses too many levels, so the Druid dip is the easiest way to do it.

Garwain: You seem to have an insufficient ML for Ardent 9s. How do you get it?

Also, Precocious Apprentice probably doesn't work. Versatile Caster, Alacritacious Cognition, and Heighten would, though, and you can shuffle them away later.

[killianh]

I've run triples before, lots of fun :smallbiggrin:

As for dual progression: Unless a trick is used to get early entry into something you're going to end up losing out on spell levels and be weaker generally. The versatility is nice, but without the extra power of casting at higher levels you start losing out.

A good example of early entry trick would be using something like the feat alternative source spell with a 1 arcane/3 divine then go theurge.

[Arcanist]

Doesn't get Arcane 9s. Arcane 9s>Psionic 9s. Admittedly, this Erudite can bust the action economy slightly better than the Wizard, but, at this level, the advantage is negligible, at best.

Overall, I'd stick with the Ur-Theurge, because of the superiority of Arcane 9s. Shapechange alone is god.

I'm gonna need you to explain to me how StP Erudite doesn't get access to Arcane 9s because I'm looking at the alternate class feature and its not saying anything about losing 9s :smallconfused:

and yes, I'd have to agree with you on that, Ur-Theurge (Wizard/Ur-Priest) duel 9s are just amazing if you are correct on the fact StP Erudite doesn't get access to arcane 9s.

[Yuki Akuma]

StP Erudite learns spells like discipline powers.

An Erudite may only learn discipline powers up to one less than the highest level powers he has access to.

Ergo, an Erudite may never learn a 9th level discipline power, and an StP Erudite may never learn a 9th level spell.

[Arcanist]

StP Erudite learns spells like discipline powers.

An Erudite may only learn discipline powers up to one less than the highest level powers he has access to.

Ergo, an Erudite may never learn a 9th level discipline power, and an StP Erudite may never learn a 9th level spell.

That makes sense, thank you. :smallsmile:

[Aotrs Commander]

For my own games, I simply dropped the entry pre-reqs for MT to 1st level spells, letting you enter it at level 3. Meaning you suck less at the bottom level (and you don't have to wait ages to play the paradigm you wanted), and that the progression of the more powerful levels is slower (since you'll be out of the class at 12th level).



The point of a hybrid is not to be quite as good as a focussed class so, the question really is, if MT isn't "good" enough (without fast-progression classes like Ur-Priest that I unilaterally disallow; 9th level spells are quiet broken enough that you can damn well wait until the appropriate level to abuse them!), what would be? At what point is Not Quite As Good good enough? 17/17 casting at 20th? There must be a point between 20/20 casting at the MT's current 15/15 casting (@ CL 19/19 with 2 x Practised Spellcaster, though you might argue that you could give those out for free as class feature maybe at 10th MT level) where the right balance of Not Quite As Good As The Single Class But Not Too Far Behind is achieved.

[hoverfrog]

Isn't there an assumption that a lot of people are going to dip into other classes to give them a bit of versatility that specialising as one class doesn't give them. A fighter may take a few levels of cleric to give himself some minor healing, a wizard may take a level or two of rogue for those lovely skills that they have.

I know that this just isn't optimised and that a lot of people will pour scorn on the very idea but during play optimisation isn't the best thing, being a good character is the best thing.

Yes, a single class wizard is always going to be better at being a wizard than a multiclass wizard. You lose out on raw power but gain a massive amount of additional spell capability. If that's what you want then go for it.

[Arcanist]

Yes, a single class wizard is always going to be better at being a wizard than a multiclass wizard. You lose out on raw power but gain a massive amount of additional spell capability. If that's what you want then go for it.


Yes, a single class wizard is always going to be better at being a wizard than a multiclass wizard. You lose out on raw power but gain a massive amount of additional spell capability.


Yes, a single class wizard is always going to be better at being a wizard than a multiclass wizard.


http://writingfrommyheart.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/challenge-accepted.png

however it is 6am and I've gotten no sleep... so another time...

[panaikhan]

I hear a lot of people complaining about Mystic Theurge. Is Arcane Heirophant any better? Does the combined Familiar / Companion (basically a familiar you CAN send into combat) make up for losing those top-level slots?
Also I get very confused with Caster Level, Casting Level and such like. My last attempt at an AH was an illumian, and i think i got it a LOT wrong

[Garwain]

Garwain: You seem to have an insufficient ML for Ardent 9s. How do you get it?

Also, Precocious Apprentice probably doesn't work. Versatile Caster, Alacritacious Cognition, and Heighten would, though, and you can shuffle them away later.
Ardent has cerebremancer and psychic theure that boost the ML to 9. And you could use earth spell, or sanctum spell as well. That's not an issue I guess...

And why are we measuring theurges only to wizards? I can name a ton of classes that are worse..

[Arcanist]

And why are we measuring theurges only to wizards? I can name a ton of classes that are worse..

Name them then :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

StP Erudite learns spells like discipline powers.

An Erudite may only learn discipline powers up to one less than the highest level powers he has access to.

Ergo, an Erudite may never learn a 9th level discipline power, and an StP Erudite may never learn a 9th level spell.

Well, never say never as they say. 9th-level powers are possible post-epic. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicExpandedKnowledge) There's also the Favored Discipline ACF, which does let you learn max-level powers in one discipline pre-epic. (Psychometabolism and Clairsentience are my favorites for this.) And finally, Psychic Chirurgery also lets an Erudite grab any 9th-level power he wants, so long as he's willing to pay for it.

Finally, there's the semi-dubious trick of combining ACFs. Recall that an Erudite actually gets two bonus feats at first-level, which would presumably allow you to grab two ACFs - StP and FD. The dubious part of this is then treating "spells" as your favored "discipline" for FD Erudite; assuming you don't get CPsi tossed at your head for it, you would then be allowed to learn 9th-level spells as powers.

[AmberVael]

And why are we measuring theurges only to wizards? I can name a ton of classes that are worse..

This is exactly what I was trying to point out in my first post in the thread. Comparatively speaking, a theurge build is just fine. They get plenty of spells and variety, after all.

But instinctively, people will compare it to the classes that make it up- it's an option for those classes after all, so it should be comparable right? And this is where it fails, because even with the added versatility of being a theurge, it doesn't compare in power. It makes it a direct downgrade rather than the upgrade or at least comparable option that people feel it should be.

Because of this perspective, it doesn't matter that on its own merits the theurge would be decent. Because it doesn't compare to the other options a spellcaster has, it will be seen as a suboptimal choice- because it is a suboptimal choice for those classes. It's just that a suboptimal choice for a wizard happens to be just fine compared to everything else.

[hoverfrog]

http://writingfrommyheart.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/challenge-accepted.pngAwesome. I look forward to it. Who knew that a throw away comment could end with a challenge. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

I know that this just isn't optimised and that a lot of people will pour scorn on the very idea but during play optimisation isn't the best thing, being a good character is the best thing.

These are not mutually exclusive.


Name them then :smallconfused:

Worse than wizards you mean? That's a long list :smalltongue:

[Arcanist]

Worse than wizards you mean? That's a long list :smalltongue:

I mean worse then wizard :smalltongue: I'm curious what you can throw at the theoretical Schrodinger's Wizard :smallamused: I mean that jokingly and not as an enticement, I'm actually curious to see a list of things that > Wizards

[navar100]

Ultimate Magus is nice. You don't get double 9's, but you can get 9's pre-epic as a wizard and have a decent amount of sorcerer slots for the occasional regular spell use, but they're more useful as metamagic fuel. You get comparable versatility to make up for the less overall spellpower of a single class wizard.

Nice trick: Specialize in wizard and use sorcerer spells known for the occasional opposition school spell you really want anyway. For example, if Illusion is an opposition school, it's still nice to know and be able to cast Invisibility or Displacement on your sorcerer side.

[Psyren]

Ultimate Magus is nice. You don't get double 9's, but you can get 9's pre-epic as a wizard and have a decent amount of sorcerer slots for the occasional regular spell use, but they're more useful as metamagic fuel. You get comparable versatility to make up for the less overall spellpower of a single class wizard.

Nice trick: Specialize in wizard and use sorcerer spells known for the occasional opposition school spell you really want anyway. For example, if Illusion is an opposition school, it's still nice to know and be able to cast Invisibility or Displacement on your sorcerer side.

Better yet, use Beguiler rather than Sorcerer. You can safely ban enchantment/illusion (or enchantment/evocation if you prefer, as normal), plus you get Int-synergy.

[Little Brother]

Ardent has cerebremancer and psychic theure that boost the ML to 9. And you could use earth spell, or sanctum spell as well. That's not an issue I guess...

And why are we measuring theurges only to wizards? I can name a ton of classes that are worse..Earth Spell and Sanctum spell have nothing to do with the Ardent in this, that I can tell. Explain.

Finally, there's the semi-dubious trick of combining ACFs. Recall that an Erudite actually gets two bonus feats at first-level, which would presumably allow you to grab two ACFs - StP and FD. The dubious part of this is then treating "spells" as your favored "discipline" for FD Erudite; assuming you don't get CPsi tossed at your head for it, you would then be allowed to learn 9th-level spells as powers.Issue: All magic is a discipline power, but not explicitly the SAME discipline, so doesn't work. I see no reason you couldn't choose, say, Shapechange as your favored discipline, but not just "Spells."

[Urpriest]

Earth Spell and Sanctum spell have nothing to do with the Ardent in this, that I can tell. Explain.


I doubt they're how it's done. Here's one way you could do it:

As mentioned, 9 levels of Ardent baseline.
+4 Practiced Manifester
+3 Overchannel (note that the Ardent's power learning mechanic doesn't mention how often you can manifest said powers)
...and for the remaining +1, Orange Ioun Stone maybe?

[Psyren]

Issue: All magic is a discipline power, but not explicitly the SAME discipline, so doesn't work. I see no reason you couldn't choose, say, Shapechange as your favored discipline, but not just "Spells."

You should at least be able to pick a school of magic - Discipline definition:


A discipline is a group of related powers that work in similar ways.

Since the spells are now powers, this would apply to them as well.

[Little Brother]

You should at least be able to pick a school of magic - Discipline definition:



Since the spells are now powers, this would apply to them as well.That's one interpretation. However, given how they are "Treated" as discipline powers, and still are not, I don't think it matters.

[Duke of URL]

If relative power of spells scaled linearly, then the typical Mystic Theurge would make sense. But they don't. Spells double in power every 1-2 spell levels -- if you put yourself 2 spell levels behind, you have given up at least a doubling of power to a straight-classed caster.

[erikun]

Yes, a single class wizard is always going to be better at being a wizard than a multiclass wizard. You lose out on raw power but gain a massive amount of additional spell capability.
Wizard 4/[Spontaneous Class 1]/Ultimate Magus 10 with the Practiced Spellcaster feat loses two Wizard levels, in exchange for applying spontaneous metamagic to Wizard spells on-the-fly and a higher caster level.

Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge loses the same two Wizard levels, although with a lot of Cleric spells and DMM possibilities.

Wizard 1/Archivist 19 can scribe nearly all the Wizard spells, along with all other divine spellcasters and nearly anything else they can get their hands on. :smalltongue:


Ultimate Magus is nice. You don't get double 9's, but you can get 9's pre-epic as a wizard and have a decent amount of sorcerer slots for the occasional regular spell use, but they're more useful as metamagic fuel. You get comparable versatility to make up for the less overall spellpower of a single class wizard.

Nice trick: Specialize in wizard and use sorcerer spells known for the occasional opposition school spell you really want anyway. For example, if Illusion is an opposition school, it's still nice to know and be able to cast Invisibility or Displacement on your sorcerer side.
I've been wanting to use Magic-Psionic transparency to make a Wizard/Psion/UM/Cerebremancer. It would be interesting, I'd think.

Other than that, I like the idea of a Wizard/Bard/UM using Still, Silent, Invisible and Disguise spell to mask spellcasting. Not terribly powerful, but it seems like it'd be fun.

[Yuki Akuma]

Bards can't use Silent Spell, remember.

[erikun]

Bards can't use Silent Spell, remember.
Well, bardic spells cannot be silenced. A Wizard/Bard/UM could still give up a 1st-level Bard spell slot to silence a Wizard spell, though. It is no doubt handy when you are invisible or hidden, and don't want to give away your location. :smallbiggrin:

[Edit] Or when casting Silence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm) over yourself but wish to continue casting spells.

I rather suspect that a Wizard/Bard would be expending Bard spell slots to metamagic Wizard spells more frequently than the reverse.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, bardic spells cannot be silenced. A Wizard/Bard/UM could still give up a 1st-level Bard spell slot to silence a Wizard spell, though. It is no doubt handy when you are invisible or hidden, and don't want to give away your location. :smallbiggrin:

Hey, that's true.

I forgot how Ultimate Magus worked for a moment there!

[Little Brother]

Wizard 4/[Spontaneous Class 1]/Ultimate Magus 10 with the Practiced Spellcaster feat loses two Wizard levels, in exchange for applying spontaneous metamagic to Wizard spells on-the-fly and a higher caster level.Wizard 5(Spontaneous Divination)/Ultimate Magus X.

[Arcanist]

Wizard 5(Spontaneous Divination)/Ultimate Magus X.

As much as I love the idea of that actually working I'm actually debating that in my head, I mean would it advance your Wizard casting by 17 levels (since it is both your prepared and spontaneous class)? If it does then all my internets belong to you... I just find that so hard to believe or accept for that matter :smalltongue: