What exactly does it take to make the Warmage 'Tier' 3?

[ngilop]

Just wondering what it will take to make the war mage 'Tier' 3.

I know a big reason is that blasting is so bad in 3rd ed due to the inflation of HP and the staticness of damage form the 2nd to 3rd ed transition.

but what are some cool things that is missing or can be added to make teh War Mage 'tier' 3?

[Malroth]

Arcane Disciple feat and a smart choice of diety.

[Snowbluff]

Bloodline feats don't require Sorcerer...

Extra Spell w/out errata.

[Psyren]

More options beyond blasting will do the trick. But that's as much Evocation's fault as it is the Warmage's.

[Jarian]

Extra Spell w/out errata.

It's not even errata, it's a CustServ response that is touted as killing the feat. Errata doesn't change its ability. You realize the absurdity of this when you realize these are the same people that would have Deepwarden AC limited by their armor's max dex, among other, even less sensible decisions.

[Psyren]

It's not even errata, it's a CustServ response that is touted as killing the feat. Errata doesn't change its ability. You realize the absurdity of this when you realize these are the same people that would have Deepwarden AC limited by their armor's max dex, among other, even less sensible decisions.

But without errata, where do you draw the line on that? Can I add Heal and Holy Word to my Wizard? Giant Size to my Favored Soul? Body Outside Body to my Druid?

[Jarian]

But without errata, where do you draw the line on that? Can I add Heal and Holy Word to my Wizard? Giant Size to my Favored Soul? Body Outside Body to my Druid?

For the cost of one of your precious few feats, replicating something you could have done through one of sundry other means? Absolutely. I wouldn't bat an eye at it unless it was intentionally taken to open up a serious abuse/exploit.

[sreservoir]

But without errata, where do you draw the line on that? Can I add Heal and Holy Word to my Wizard? Giant Size to my Favored Soul? Body Outside Body to my Druid?

you're paying for it in feats. you don't get very many feats which can be used for extra spell.

[Psyren]

"Precious feats" are anything but; I could pick Toughness on my Cleric 9 times and still dominate most campaigns. All this would do is let me start stealing the other player's thunder even earlier. If I give Mirror Image/Greater Invisibility to my Druid, what would the DM have to do to compensate and how would it affect the other players? Can I give my Cleric Magic Missile and send him into Force Missile Mage? Can he cast his metamagicked missiles in full plate? Do I even care what weapon he carries after that? I certainly wouldn't once he DMM: Persists Polymorph and Divine Power....

At high levels this might not matter much - balance is already shot and there are plenty of ways besides Extra Spell to replicate these kinds of effects - but at low-mid levels it removes a lot of granularity from the game from where I'm sitting. Sure you can allow it, but it just doesn't sit well with me. Casters have enough advantages as it is without being able to crib from each other's notes. (And before you mention Psionics - do note that this ability was built into that system from the start, and while they didn't do a perfect job, they still made it more balanced than vancian magic.)

[ngilop]

Can we please get back on topic with how to make the War Mage 'tier' 3?

this arguing over feats is beyond off topic here.

not too mention that every argument against this feat is null and void as there are domains that have those exact spells on them

do they break the game? yes, but then again its those very reasons why the Cleric is a 'tier' 1 class.

giving a feat to a character does not i repeat DOES NOT fix a class at all, as a feat can be taking by any number of characters.

Im not looking at what feats or prestige classes or race one can take to make their War mage 'Tier' 3

but exactly what can help the War mage via class abilities get up to that Tier.

again leave off feats, prestige classes, races and other things that have no bearing on what a class is or is not.

[Jarian]

but exactly what can help the War mage via class abilities get up to that Tier.

Class abilities: gets access to all Evocation and Transmutation Wizard/Sorc spells. Or most of them, if you feel like creating a specific spell list, a la Beguiler. You have your blasts, buffs, and what little utility Evocation offers, instead of 9 spell levels of the same spell, "but this time a cone!" Transmutation rounds out the "war" side of the "warmage", allowing you to reshape battlefields and increase your combat or spellcasting prowess.

That should do it.

[Vladislav]

Arcane Disciple feat and a smart choice of diety.

I was going to say "a better spell list", but that's a good start.



giving a feat to a character does not i repeat DOES NOT fix a class at all, as a feat can be taking by any number of characters.

Oversized letters don't make you right. What could have been true for one class is not neccessarily true for another. A feat has different value depending on who takes it.

If a Sorcerer takes Arcane Disciple (Plant) feat, he doesn't automatically know Entangle, for example. He merely adds Entangle to his class list. And then must spend one of his precious spells-known slots to actually learn it.

But a Warmage that takes Arcane Disciple (Plant) can automatically cast Entangle, because he can cast all the spells on his class list.

As you can see, I can do big letters too.

[ngilop]

{{scrubbed}}

[Little Brother]

Bloodline Feats, Sandshaper, MotAO, basically any way to largely expand your spell list. Eclectic Learning really helps.

YMMV, but if ruled that advancing spellcasting advances Eclectic Learning, take a Divine Oracle dip, Sandshaper, and the like, they are quite nicely in high tier 3.

Rainbow Warsnake is T1.

[erikun]

a beguiler can do the same thing with the specific feat you are talking about
I think the point is that using the feat can provide T3 versatility to such a class. A Beguiler with Entangle is still T3, so doesn't get as much out of it as a Warmage might. This isn't a case like Use Magic Device, where any class could use it with the same effectiveness - Arcane Disciple on a Warmage is better than Arcane Disciple on most other classes.

It's like saying we shouldn't consider Natural Spell for Druids because any class with Wild Shape could take Natural Spell and cast spells while wildshaped - that may be true, but we're talking about Druid Spellcasting here while wildshaped.



As for the original question, the Warmage lacks versatility. Specifically, they lack good non-blast options. I like the idea of throwing in some of the "elemental"-themed Conjuration and Transmutation spells. Wall of Stone, Wall of Ice, Fly, and Stone Shape would probably help them a lot in getting to T3, for example.

[Oscredwin]

I like the suggestion of adding buffs to his spell list. Or you could try making warmage edge a lot better. Maybe +int per die.

[Jarian]

I like the suggestion of adding buffs to his spell list. Or you could try making warmage edge a lot better. Maybe +int per die.

Dealing 20d6+220 doesn't make the Warmage any more versatile, just like hitting things harder doesn't raise the Fighter a tier. All it does is further trivialize hitpoint totals on standard encounters.

[Oscredwin]

Dealing 20d6+220 doesn't make the Warmage any more versatile, just like hitting things harder doesn't raise the Fighter a tier. All it does is further trivialize hitpoint totals on standard encounters.

I thought that the ability to hit people harder was what got the barbarian a tier up from the fighter.

[Eldest]

Perhaps this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42440), this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131346), this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219088), this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208967), or this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219065)? There is a homebrew section of this forum, who's "job" it is to make new classes and fix classes they don't like.

[Jarian]

I thought that the ability to hit people harder was what got the barbarian a tier up from the fighter.

I'm pretty sure that's the variety of ACFs/rage options to do more than "I hit it again", actually. Not to mention that the Barbarian is generally more useful than the Fighter outside of, say, Dungeoncrasher. Both can do stupid amounts of damage if you want them to, but the Barbarian tends to have more options.

[Urpriest]

I thought that the ability to hit people harder was what got the barbarian a tier up from the fighter.

It got the barbarian up to Tier 4. The fighter is irrelevant. The Warmage is already Tier 4. It deals enough damage, it just needs utility, and all that really requires are a decent spread of spells. Give it a Tier 3 set of spells and it will be a Tier 3. Heck, swap its list for the Beguiler's and it will probably be a Tier 3.

[Oscredwin]

The Warmage can do it much more Robustly than the barbarian. He can shoot fliers, single target, multi target, AoE, etc. If hits were kills for him, wouldn't he be comparable to a Warblade?

[Urpriest]

The Warmage can do it much more Robustly than the barbarian. He can shoot fliers, single target, multi target, AoE, etc. If hits were kills for him, wouldn't he be comparable to a Warblade?

Warblade also has defensive abilities, some utility, some mobility. Highly applicable damage is already the Barbarian's shtick, with access to pounce in-class and damage that's already untyped and keyed to a weak defense. Warmages may have more robust damage by some metrics, but that's not enough to give them the edge in versatility needed for Tier 3.

[ngilop]

Ok, i looked thorugh the ho,ebrew stuffs and made Battle Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246968)

which is a cleaned up version of Kenneth;s

Would it be considered "tier' 3?

also, what is the name of the feat that knocks those damaged by the spell prone?

[Jarian]

also, what is the name of the feat that knocks those damaged by the spell prone?

Forceful Spell, or Born of the Three Thunders.

[ngilop]

I thought forceful spells stunned.. allright

again you are awesome :)

[Fyermind]

I like the idea of adding either summoning spells and a few energy based conjurations, or some battlefield control and spells from the transmutation school.

Either of these options fits nicely with the theme of a battle caster, either making him a commander of his own troops via summons, or making him better able to contribute to an existing unit via buffs.

Alternatively rainbow servant makes him a tier 1-2 at level 11, and dragonwrought kobold casting all druid spells as arcane spells is a similar effect from level 1.

[JoshuaZ]

Make them gain new spell levels like a wizard (so they gain 2nd level spells at 3rd level and so on), and make them get Advanced Learning at each even level and allow the spell picked to be either an evocation spell or a spell from a different school that is not of their highest level. That would probably put them as high T3.

[Little Brother]

Basically, optimization. You don't need any homebrew, you just need to know what you're doing.

[ngilop]

in additon to your insutls you are failing to comprehend that taking a feat or a prestig class has nothing to do with the class itself

its not teh warmage that is moving up to tier X its the feat and/or the prestige lcass that is allowing it to.


so please again stop with teh Feat/PrC makes teh warmage better and espeically isnutklign other people

[Eldest]

in additon to your insutls you are failing to comprehend that taking a feat or a prestig class has nothing to do with the class itself

its not teh warmage that is moving up to tier X its the feat and/or the prestige lcass that is allowing it to.


so please again stop with teh Feat/PrC makes teh warmage better and espeically isnutklign other people

Then please look at any of the five remakes, fixes, and alternatives I showed you. ALL of them are meant to be tier three. You could, at the least, look at them for ideas.

[dextercorvia]

Ok, i looked thorugh the ho,ebrew stuffs and made Battle Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246968)

which is a cleaned up version of Kenneth;s

Would it be considered "tier' 3?

also, what is the name of the feat that knocks those damaged by the spell prone?


Forceful Spell, or Born of the Three Thunders.

Also, Explosive Spell.

[ngilop]

Then please look at any of the five remakes, fixes, and alternatives I showed you. ALL of them are meant to be tier three. You could, at the least, look at them for ideas.

I did.. well I did before you posted that, take alook at my re-tool of a re-tooling LOl

my post was meant not for you but a very specific person who seems to liek coming into threads and going off topic and then insuting everyody that does not agree with that partuslr pupose pick any thread at all the person has replied to and you will see this same pattern repeated over and over again.

somehow i need to get immunity to reports as well...

[JoshuaZ]

Basically, optimization. You don't need any homebrew, you just need to know what you're doing.

The tier system is a measure to a large extent of what you can do with optimization. Classes are compared in the system assuming functionally the same level of optimization applied. So the fact that a higher level of optimization can bump a class doesn't alter its tier.

[Little Brother]

The tier system is a measure to a large extent of what you can do with optimization. Classes are compared in the system assuming functionally the same level of optimization applied. So the fact that a higher level of optimization can bump a class doesn't alter its tier.Not exactly. The tier system, in and of itself, as far as I can tell, is that specific class's power, straight out of the box.

The OP wanted to get the Warmage's power up in line with a T3 character. This can be done through minor optimization.

[ngilop]

again, i am going to ask you to cease and desist


becuase now you are making me very angry by not only ignoring anything I have said at any point in this thread.

now you feel that you need to take it upon yourself to put words in my mouth.

[JoshuaZ]

Not exactly. The tier system, in and of itself, as far as I can tell, is that specific class's power, straight out of the box.

The OP wanted to get the Warmage's power up in line with a T3 character. This can be done through minor optimization.

So JaronK's original wording on this is less than clear. In the original statement
he wrote (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0):


Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level.

So the tier system by default presumes the same level of optimization. When you change optimization levels you can effectively go up or down a tier but you are no longer really talking about the tier system then. Think of it this way:if one wants a warmage whose default range is about the same as a dread necromancer or a beguiler saying "use the following in your build" isn't an answer. Changing the warmage so that the default is somewhere else can answer that question.

[Vladislav]

Not to argue with JaronK, but let's quote his own definition of Tier 3:


Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult.

Now, the question "What does it take to bring a Warmage to Tier 3" can be paraphrased into:

"What does it take to have the Warmage to do one thing quite well, while still being useful when that thing is unappropriate, and to occasionally have a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter".

Now, once you ask yourself the correction question, it is undenyable that the answer to the above is: clever selection of feats and domains.

With a clever selection of feats and domains, the warmage can deal mucho damage, and therefore be excellent in scenarios where damage dealing is appropriate, and can also cast spells like Charm Person or Entangle, and therefore be useful in social scenarios or battlefield control. And of course spells like Charm Person or Entangle can occasionally solve an encounter.

Which exactly fits the definition of T3. QED.

[Little Brother]

So the tier system by default presumes the same level of optimization. When you change optimization levels you can effectively go up or down a tier but you are no longer really talking about the tier system then. Think of it this way:if one wants a warmage whose default range is about the same as a dread necromancer or a beguiler saying "use the following in your build" isn't an answer. Changing the warmage so that the default is somewhere else can answer that question.There's an issue with that. The Dread Necro has class features. It has benefits for staying in. I think the Beguiler might, too. The Warmage benefits more from PrCs because it has less to benefit from its class. It also has Eclectic Learning, which none of the other similar casters have.

This means it benefits more from other PrCs, and can fit more PrCs into it well. I mean, things like the Sandshaper have little synergy with the DN, but plenty with the Warmage.

[ngilop]

Not to argue with JaronK, but let's quote his own definition of Tier 3:



Now, the question "What does it take to bring a Warmage to Tier 3" can be paraphrased into:

"What does it take to have the Warmage to do one thing quite well, while still being useful when that thing is unappropriate, and to occasionally have a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter".

Now, once you ask yourself the correction question, it is undenyable that the answer to the above is: clever selection of feats and domains.

With a clever selection of feats and domains, the warmage can deal mucho damage, and therefore be excellent in scenarios where damage dealing is appropriate, and can also cast spells like Charm Person or Entangle, and therefore be useful in social scenarios or battlefield control. And of course spells like Charm Person or Entangle can occasionally solve an encounter.

Which exactly fits the definition of T3. QED.

again that is optimization and you are making the CHARACTER tier 3, not the class

why do people liek you an little brother seem so intent on blatantly ignoring what i am aksing pushing your own agendas and insulting others?

not once in any of my posts did I ask ' how to optimize my war mage character to make him tier 3'


i said what cna make the war mage tier 3? and you both seem intent on giving example after exampel after example on optimization tricks, even when repeated ased to not do that becuase it is not what I am looking for.

Please, just have the human decency to stop and actually give soem idea on what The class lacks that could bump it up to hit that sweet spot wher eist good at blasting the crap out of things and still relevant in other fields

[Vladislav]

Dude, I wasn't even talking to you. That was a reply to JoshuaZ above.

[Theroc]

ngilop, I've seen neither LittleBrother, not Vladislav insult anyone in this thread(Though Vlad vanished on me once, I assume he didn't have time for the game).

Why do you keep insisting they are insulting people continuously?

Yes, they are ignoring your complaints that they are not discussing how to improve the Warmage, however, this is also not the homebrew forum, which is where class modifications generally take place, so it is likely they assumed this was how to bring a SPECIFIC warmage up a tier.

They also might be having trouble understanding what you're typing. I know it took me some effort to read through things.

To be on topic: Warmages deal HP damage. HP Damage isn't always what you need to finish an encounter. Get Warmages access to non-evocation spells more reliably would make the class more viable. Vladislav and LittleBrother were both mentioning ways in the system to get those without homebrewing a fix to the base class.

[ngilop]

please re-read what i said and apply it to your future behavoirs, I mean normally I do not have to tell soembody 5 or 6 times before the relaize that X is what i am looking for not Y.


I am not aksing for optimization tricks I was askign what the Warmage was lacking or could be boosted a bit.

you have rpeeatedly defied that question and keep going off topic in every single one of your posts


One Topic, One Thread
There should be only one active thread for a specific topic in most cases. Please check and see if there is already an active thread (one that has been posted on in the last six weeks) discussing a topic before posting a new one.

please stick to the topic at hand, you have all the freedom in the world to post various ways you cna optimize a wamrage, sadly though for you this thread is not about optimization in the least.

[Psyren]

again that is optimization and you are making the CHARACTER tier 3, not the class

why do people liek you an little brother seem so intent on blatantly ignoring what i am aksing pushing your own agendas and insulting others?

not once in any of my posts did I ask ' how to optimize my war mage character to make him tier 3'

I'm not sure what you're asking for then... The general answers have already been given, anything more specific will be homebrew.

Outside of homebrew, PrCs are the only RAW-legal way to make it strong enough to change tiers. Rainbow Servant might be too powerful, but there are less extreme options like Exalted Arcanist and Sandshaper; even a theurge like Soulcaster might work.

[ngilop]

Just wondering what it will take to make the war mage 'Tier' 3.

I know a big reason is that blasting is so bad in 3rd ed due to the inflation of HP and the staticness of damage form the 2nd to 3rd ed transition.

but what are some cool things that is missing or can be added to make teh War Mage 'tier' 3?

that is what i am asking, i started this thread wodneirng exaclty what the warmage was missing and lakcing behind in order for it to hit the 'tier' 3 step, jarian, eldest and others have given great reasons why it was lakcing and whats needs to be done to up the class's power and versatility

I did this with teh intent of taking said advice and creating a homebrew class from it, but if ound one that was bescially there it just neeeded cleaned up.

[killianh]

So from what I've seen you posted a homebrew question in the wrong forum, and people got confused as to what you wanted. They all seemed to try and help you so far. Even if optimization isn't what your asking, the ideas they offered in order to help you can still be augmented and added to a homebrew class version of the War Mage.

Half of the War Mage class feature as it stands are feats, so feats can be class features. Class features or spells from PrCs can be made into class features for a base class if you're homebrewing anyway. If you're just shifting powers around and trying to add to War Mage then every bit of help offered to you so far can be of aid. If you're trying to come up with brand new spells and class features on your own, then you should be working in the homebrew forum, coming up with the ideas yourself, then asking people to PEACH it for you.

Other then that read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4874) to understand its position, then simply add what its missing

[eggs]

To be honest, I think the Warmage is held to a higher standard than other classes, due to its 9th level casting.

Treating the Tier system as a criterion-referenced rating system, the Eclectic Learning Warmage does seem to sneak in at T3 (even if it's worse than many of the other classes that do):

The central parameter for T3 is: "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate."

There's a fairly common consensus that the Warmage does blasting/BC well.

With Eclectic Learning, the Warmage is able to learn powers like Alter Self, Invisibility or Minor Image at ECL 6, Polymorph, Dimension Door or Greater Mirror Image at ECL 11 and Limited Wish, Greater Shadow Conjuration or Mass Suggestion at ECL 16.

If the player of a Warmage with Minor Image, Polymorph and Limited Wish is unable to "be useful" when blasting is inappropriate, I don't think the class is the problem. (I'm not saying that the Warmage is as good as the other T3 classes; but with Eclectic Learning, it's not difficult to hit the criterion.)

EDIT:
If looking to make it more versatile, diversify its spell effects. That should be all that's necessary.

[SSGoW]

My vote is to..

Give access to Diamon Mind, Setting Sun, and Devoted Spirit.

Gain manuevers as a crusader

Refresh as a swordsage or crusader. You now have the spell slinging battle warrior who can mix it up in melee AND have some good defensive abilities.

Oh you are charging my caster? Nope! Oh I need to make a fort/ref/will save ok I have a +10 concentration item...

[JoshuaZ]

Now, the question "What does it take to bring a Warmage to Tier 3" can be paraphrased into:

"What does it take to have the Warmage to do one thing quite well, while still being useful when that thing is unappropriate, and to occasionally have a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter".

Now, once you ask yourself the correction question, it is undenyable that the answer to the above is: clever selection of feats and domains.

With a clever selection of feats and domains, the warmage can deal mucho damage, and therefore be excellent in scenarios where damage dealing is appropriate, and can also cast spells like Charm Person or Entangle, and therefore be useful in social scenarios or battlefield control. And of course spells like Charm Person or Entangle can occasionally solve an encounter.

Which exactly fits the definition of T3. QED.

This seems like a persuasive analysis. I'm convinced.

Ngilop, what browser are you using? You may want to consider using Chrome, Firefox, or some other browser which highlights spelling issues. The lack of grammar, punctuation and spelling is making it difficult to read your posts.

[dextercorvia]

To be honest, I think the Warmage is held to a higher standard than other classes, due to its 9th level casting.

Treating the Tier system as a criterion-referenced rating system, the Eclectic Learning Warmage does seem to sneak in at T3 (even if it's worse than many of the other classes that do):

Because there is something resembling a consensus that the Warmage has earned a place in T4, I'm going to post the relevant quote for what that means in the case of a specialist (like the Warmage with damage spells): "Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise."

The salient point is that it's commonly agreed that the Warmage does damage/BC quite well.

And for reference on T3, the central parameter is: "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate."

With Eclectic Learning, the Warmage is able to learn powers like Alter Self, Invisibility or Minor Image at ECL 6, Polymorph, Dimension Door or Greater Mirror Image at ECL 11 and Limited Wish, Greater Shadow Conjuration or Mass Suggestion at ECL 16.

If the player of a Warmage with Minor Image, Polymorph and Limited Wish is unable to "be useful" when blasting is inappropriate, I don't think the class is the problem. (I'm not saying that the Warmage is as good as the other T3 classes; but with Eclectic Learning, it's not difficult to hit the criterion.)

EDIT:
If looking to make it more versatile, diversify its spell effects. That should be all that's necessary.

I tend to agree with this. It is held to the full caster standard, and so you feel like it should be a full tier lower than Beguiler who gets plenty of utility along with illusions and enchantments.

If you wanted to ensure T3, you could make it so that eclectic learning doesn't cost you an extra spell level, or give it a couple of more selections. Personally, I think one every 4 levels would be good. That would mean you could actually use the first one for something worthwhile.

[T.G. Oskar]

in additon to your insutls you are failing to comprehend that taking a feat or a prestig class has nothing to do with the class itself

its not teh warmage that is moving up to tier X its the feat and/or the prestige lcass that is allowing it to.


so please again stop with teh Feat/PrC makes teh warmage better and espeically isnutklign other people

Speaking as a homebrewer: that isn't an insult. It's just opinion. Whether it counts as fact or remains as an opinion depends on evidence.

Now: based on the Tier system, a Tier is defined by: a) the tools of the class taken outside of the box and b) what the class can do with all other people having an equal amount of optimization. On the first, because only what the class contains can be considered part of the "tools" of the class, no PrC can be considered part of the "tools" of the class no more than Incantatrix can be considered part of the Wizard's "tools" or Planar Shepherd can be considered part of the Druid's "tools"; certainly, they can access those classes and they have the most synergy with them (or rather, they draw the most from the class; in the case of Planar Shepherd, it's essentially tailor-made for Druids). Going to the second, because optimization is subjective, you can't consider that adding "X" feat WILL increase the Warmage's tier, as you can choose a poor domain and grant nothing to the Warmage (or a redundant domain and grant nothing to the Warmage). You can argue that someone who chooses Arcane Disciple will optimize more than one who doesn't, and while still subjective, it leads to a correct observation (yet not to fact; keep that in mind), because you're consuming one feat slot to grant access to a variety of spells which may have far more utility than those of the Warmage itself. Does that mean that you can consider the Warmage a higher tier because you can choose the feat? Since Arcane Disciple is not limited to the Warmage (it can be chosen by ANY arcane spellcaster with enough Wisdom), it isn't a class tool, and because you can argue that someone who chooses Arcane Disciple isn't at the same degree of optimization than the other, you can't use this as argument that the Warmage can be improved to Tier 3. What you can argue is that, with Arcane Disciple and PrCs, you can expand the vertical power and horizontal versatility of the Warmage (aka, it's more powerful than before and it can do more stuff than before), but it doesn't mean it increases a tier or not.

Homebrew, on the other hand, CAN increase a Warmage within the Tier system, because you're directly dealing with the class' tools, with its vertical and horizontal balance (power and versatility/utility), and thus it requires a re-evaluation of the class and its positioning upon the Tier.

Hopefully that'll clear the confusion. Remember: a Wizard isn't more powerful because of Empower Spell or because of Incantatrix, but because it has direct access to Gate, Wish, Planar Ally and others, and can change its spell list every day. Also, why the Tiers of Prestige Classes don't exist, except as a guide to how they can modify builds (hence, why they aren't proper Tiers but modifiers: Tier 1 and God Tier are tiers, Tier X+1 isn't a Tier but a Tier modifier).

[Tyndmyr]

in additon to your insutls you are failing to comprehend that taking a feat or a prestig class has nothing to do with the class itself

its not teh warmage that is moving up to tier X its the feat and/or the prestige lcass that is allowing it to.


so please again stop with teh Feat/PrC makes teh warmage better and espeically isnutklign other people

Please, for the love of the English language, find a spellcheck. Your posts are quite hard to read. Most modern browsers offer one, they will help quite a lot.

And warmage does not need to be tier 3. It functions wonderfully as a tier 4, and has many, many paths to tier 3+ awesomeness.

Edit: I do not disagree with it's assessment as already being tier 3...I've long considered it an undervalued class.

[erikun]

Outside of homebrew, PrCs are the only RAW-legal way to make it strong enough to change tiers. Rainbow Servant might be too powerful, but there are less extreme options like Exalted Arcanist and Sandshaper; even a theurge like Soulcaster might work.
Frost Mage would possibly work; it depends on how well you could make use out of a few Summon Monster-like spells.

Mage of the Arcane Order would possibly be highly valuable, depending on how exactly it interacts with the Warmage. I've forgotten if it adds to known spells or just allows you to prepare unknown spells - if the former, then you could basically and several Wizard spells to your spell list.

[Lans]

Give it versitility spells, but try to keep in with the elementalist/blaster/war theme.

Instead of dimension door use fire stride exhalation -DrM
Instead of blur use luminous swarm, maybe glitterdust or color surge
Instead of flight- give it that flying chariot spell, or steel wings.

For buffs use things like the heart line, the crown spells from phb2, stone body, iron body, and things that enhance peoples weapons like magic vestment, magic weapon, keen edge and wallop, ghost lantern and things that are in line with mage armor, like greater mage armor, sonic shield and deflect.

If any of these spells seems to come to late, you can always drop the level by 1 to help things out, or even the reverse in the case of glitter dust.


You can also up its chasis
Have it break damage caps by a small amount, like a dice every 5 levels, because people like rolling dice.

up its body to be in line with a cleric, give it an aura like the marshal, dragon shaman, or divine mind.

[Andorax]

So the OP is looking for changes to the class itself (not options you can take while in the class, such as choosing feats with your "per 3" feat choices) that will make the class capible of functioning at T3.

ngilop, am I reading you right here?

Well, aside from the suggestions already posted, one of the things that occurs to me is that bloodlines have frequently been suggested (and subsequently rejected by ngilop as being "just feats" that would be individual choice, not changes to the class.


Smallest patch-fix I can think of? Where the class normally gets access to a "Sudden" bonus feat, allow them to take the "Sudden" bonus feat OR a bloodline feat of their choice.

1) It meets the criteria of being an actual change to the class.

2) It grants flexibility...in fact, more flexibility than normal by just plain feat choices, since ordinarially you can't take more than one bloodline.

3) It's a quick, simple, easy-to-articulate change.



If you want to spend more time tinkering with the class, add specific spells to the list...particularly spells that came out after the class. Ultimately, their lack of flexibility (the distinction between T3 and T4) is due to their spell selection.

If you want to put the spotlight back on the "War" aspect of the Warmage (which would not really put it to T3, as it remains blasty-focused), an interesting dead level boost would be giving them the War Magic Study feat from Dragon 309...9th looks like a good level to drop that in.

[The Cat Goddess]

So the OP is looking for changes to the class itself (not options you can take while in the class, such as choosing feats with your "per 3" feat choices) that will make the class capible of functioning at T3.

ngilop, am I reading you right here?

Well, aside from the suggestions already posted, one of the things that occurs to me is that bloodlines have frequently been suggested (and subsequently rejected by ngilop as being "just feats" that would be individual choice, not changes to the class.


Smallest patch-fix I can think of? Where the class normally gets access to a "Sudden" bonus feat, allow them to take the "Sudden" bonus feat OR a bloodline feat of their choice.

1) It meets the criteria of being an actual change to the class.

2) It grants flexibility...in fact, more flexibility than normal by just plain feat choices, since ordinarially you can't take more than one bloodline.

3) It's a quick, simple, easy-to-articulate change.



If you want to spend more time tinkering with the class, add specific spells to the list...particularly spells that came out after the class. Ultimately, their lack of flexibility (the distinction between T3 and T4) is due to their spell selection.

If you want to put the spotlight back on the "War" aspect of the Warmage (which would not really put it to T3, as it remains blasty-focused), an interesting dead level boost would be giving them the War Magic Study feat from Dragon 309...9th looks like a good level to drop that in.

Adding Bloodline (or Domain) feats in place of the "Sudden" feats would be very versatile and interesting.

Making it so that a WarMage could use their "Sudden" feats a number of times per day = to Int Mod (minimum twice per day) would help a little bit.

[Tyndmyr]

Adding Bloodline (or Domain) feats in place of the "Sudden" feats would be very versatile and interesting.

Making it so that a WarMage could use their "Sudden" feats a number of times per day = to Int Mod (minimum twice per day) would help a little bit.

It'd help them a LOT. Free metamagics is a big deal.

The sudden's are also underrated. Consider, if you will, the implications of them in crafting.

[Larkas]

Edit: I do not disagree with it's assessment as already being tier 3...I've long considered it an undervalued class.

That makes us two. I think it is at least a borderline 3/4 class. It lack the versatility of the Beguiler or the Bard, of course, but they do one thing very well. HP damage might not be the best way to end a fight, but it is a way, and can be more effective than most care to admit. That said, the Warmage could really use a little more versatility, with a little less repetitiveness. There are only so many ways you need to directly damage an opponent with a spell. Hence, if it is indeed T3, it is in the lower end of the tier.

[JoshuaZ]

That makes us two. I think it is at least a borderline 3/4 class. It lack the versatility of the Beguiler or the Bard, of course, but they do one thing very well. HP damage might not be the best way to end a fight, but it is a way, and can be more effective than most care to admit. That said, the Warmage could really use a little more versatility, with a little less repetitiveness. There are only so many ways you need to directly damage an opponent with a spell. Hence, if it is indeed T3, it is in the lower end of the tier.

This seems reasonable. I think part of the problem is that the Tiers aren't well-defined so they have fuzzy boundaries. That doesn't make them not useful as a framework for analysis but it does mean that some classes are going to be difficult to decide where exactly they should go, and reasonable people may disagree in those cases.

[ngilop]

So the OP is looking for changes to the class itself (not options you can take while in the class, such as choosing feats with your "per 3" feat choices) that will make the class capible of functioning at T3.

ngilop, am I reading you right here?



Yes, you are perfectly right in the understanding.

Andorax is now one of my favorite people on this site.

again, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246968) is the war mage that i put some 'finishing' touches on

i am hoping that it does indeed fall into 'tier' 3 land.

[Vladislav]

This seems reasonable. I think part of the problem is that the Tiers aren't well-defined so they have fuzzy boundaries. That doesn't make them not useful as a framework for analysis but it does mean that some classes are going to be difficult to decide where exactly they should go, and reasonable people may disagree in those cases.
I also feel rather strongly that the Tier concept should be separated into two parts: as it applies to a particular character, and as it applies to a class.

In the context of characters, let's assume a Cleric who insists on only preparing healing spells. Such character will be a T4 at best, because he's only useful in one aspect, have no abilities that "win" an encounter, etc. Just go through JaronK's list item by item, you'll find a healbot fits T4 perfectly.

In the context of classes, Cleric is a T1 class, because it lends itself to the building of T1 characters. Even if people don't always take this option, and sometimes play Cleric as a healbot, it's still a T1 class.

By the same logic, Warmage is a T3 class. Because it lends itself to the building of T3 characters. True, some Warmage characters are T4. The class itself still supports a T3 build, by good selection of Ecletic Learning spells and other feats. Whether the player wants to play Warmage as T4 or T3, is up to them.

[ThiagoMartell]

I also think the Warmage is already tier 3.
Why would it not be, while the Duskblade is?

[Hiro Protagonest]

I also think the Warmage is already tier 3.
Why would it not be, while the Duskblade is?

Duskblade has flight, which is useful for more than just reaching a flying enemy. Plus, it's on the low end already.

[Larkas]

By the same logic, Warmage is a T3 class. Because it lends itself to the building of T3 characters. True, some Warmage characters are T4. The class itself still supports a T3 build, by good selection of Ecletic Learning spells and other feats. Whether the player wants to play Warmage as T4 or T3, is up to them.

You hit the nail in the head with that, IMHO. I think that, as it only was published in PH2, people tend to forget about Eclectic Learning. That ACF alone gives the class a much needed bump in versatility. Of course there are better ways to go about it, what with Arcane Disciple and Bloodline feats et al, but it is simple and it does work.

[Psyren]

As a thought experiment, I decided to go through their list and see what utility/buff/control spells I could dig up.

I left out spells that only do direct damage (including ability damage.) I also left out buffs whose only purposes was to do damage later (e.g. True Strike has no use beyond attacking, but Fist of Stone can be used to hoist an unconscious ally over someone's shoulder.) Here's what I came up with:

0-level
Light

1st-level
Fist of Stone

2nd-level
Continual Flame
Pyrotechnics
Shatter

3rd-level
Fire Shield
Gust of Wind
Sleet Storm
Stinking Cloud

4th-level
Black Tentacles
Shout

5th-level
Mass Fire Shield
Prismatic Ray

6th-level
Acid Fog
Disintegrate

7th-level
Earthquake
Prismatic Spray
Waves of Exhaustion

8th-level
Prismatic Wall
Scintillating Pattern
Greater Shout
Sunburst

9th-level
Elemental Swarm
Prismatic Sphere

Having looked through these, I'd have to say it isn't quite fair to put them on the same level as a Barbarian, as they can in fact do more in a fight than deal damage (especially once they pass 3rd-level spells.) And certainly they can do damage pretty well too, at least at range and with the right feats. The problem is that there still isn't a whole lot they can do outside of a fight, and out-of-combat utility is often held up as a hallmark of T3.

The deficiencies in their list - things like mobility, skills and protection - can be shored up with WBL, but WBL is not an assumption of the tier system. But from a practical, gaming table standpoint - whereas a Barbarian or Rogue needs both utility and combat gear/consumables, all the Warmage needs is utility, so he's standing a little in front of the other T4s.

Finally, Advanced Learning can help them with some of this. Flight for instance can be gotten from a spell like Greater Floating Disk. It's not perfect but it's still helpful at addressing some of these shortcomings.