[3.5] Base Classes With Full BAB and Good Will Saves?

[Nepenthe]

I've found Duskblade and Knight from Player's Handbook II. Are there any others?

Thanks everyone!

[sonofzeal]

I've found Duskblade and Knight from Player's Handbook II. Are there any others?

Thanks everyone!
I suspect Crusaders from ToB, but I'm AFB. Hexblade too.

[Jukebox Hero]

I'm pretty sure Samurai do as well, from Complete Warrior. I'm not sure though, so don't quote me on that.

[Jarian]

I'm pretty sure Samurai do as well, from Complete Warrior. I'm not sure though, so don't quote me on that.

They don't.

[eggs]

OA Samurai.

[Thurbane]

AFAIK, it just the four:

Duskblade (PHB2)
Hexblade (CW)
Knight (PHB2)
Samurai (OA 3.0 version)


...also, the Half Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfDragonParagon) racial Paragon class, but it's only 3 levels long.

Some racial hit dice are also full BAB plus good Will save:

Dragon
Monstrous Humanoid
Outsider

[Little Brother]

Level 7+ Cleric/Archivist?

And, doesn't the Mystic Ranger have a good will save? Or is it the only real caster(No, Pallies and Hexies) that has a bad will save?

[sonofzeal]

Level 7+ Cleric/Archivist?

And, doesn't the Mystic Ranger have a good will save? Or is it the only real caster(No, Pallies and Hexies) that has a bad will save?
I think Trickster-variant Spellthieves have bad Will despite Bardic casting progression.

[Little Brother]

I think Trickster-variant Spellthieves have bad Will despite Bardic casting progression.I thought Spellthieves in general had good Will. Do spellthieves, the class that's built to be hit and absorb spells and kill casters, really have bad will saves? :smallconfused:

[Nepenthe]

Thanks, everyone. Hexblade should work for my purposes.

[Aeryr]

Doesn't the divine mind have high will?

[sonofzeal]

I thought Spellthieves in general had good Will. Do spellthieves, the class that's built to be hit and absorb spells and kill casters, really have bad will saves? :smallconfused:
I'm still AFB, but IIRC they have good Ref, and then a "Spellgrace" class feature that gives them a small bonus on saving throws vs spells.

[Little Brother]

I'm still AFB, but IIRC they have good Ref, and then a "Spellgrace" class feature that gives them a small bonus on saving throws vs spells.Wow... That's just... Ugh...

[sonofzeal]

Wow... That's just... Ugh...
Sorry, I just checked and it turns out I was wrong. Good Will, bad Ref and Fort. Spellgrace at lvl 2, 11, and 20, which barely amounts to anything. I love the class, but it seriously needs more Spellgrace.

[jaybird]

Doesn't Paladin have good Will? Or am I thinking Pathfinder...

[TuggyNE]

Doesn't Paladin have good Will? Or am I thinking Pathfinder...

That's only PF, yes.

[Lapak]

That's only PF, yes.Though a dip as far as Paladin 2 is full BAB and certainly has the chance to end up giving a substantial bump to Will saves (and the others) if you're already on a CHA-based chassis.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Doesn't the divine mind have high will?

I don't believe that they have full BAB, actually.

[Larkas]

Ehm... Persisted Divine Power Cleric? :smalleek:

[Thurbane]

I don't believe that they have full BAB, actually.
Indeed - none of the WotC psionic base classes have good BAB, not even the Psychic Warrior. :smallconfused:

Ehm... Persisted Divine Power Cleric? :smalleek:
Yes, I think that's what this post was alluding to:

Level 7+ Cleric/Archivist?

[Kane0]

Favored Soul (If you cast Divine Power)

[Essence_of_War]

Favored Soul (If you cast Divine Power)

Monk - with UMD and access to partially charged wands of divine power. :smalltongue:

[Larkas]

Yeah, yeah, sorry for starting that :smallfrown: Btw, Mystic Ranger has good fort saves only :smallconfused:

[FMArthur]

Sorcerer and wizard with Tenser's Transformation...
This is silly.

Also, Crusaders don't have good Will saves, they just add their Charisma to it via class feature.

(A handful of classes seem to get these half-measures that add onto a single save that progresses badly for them. It just looks like designers chafing against the system's lack of a 'medium' save. Swashbuckler and Warblade do it with their Reflex saves, Scout with Fortitude and Crusader with Will.)

[Nepenthe]

The reason I asked is because I'm statting up some low-level heavies that are employed by a wizard organization. Their employers would recognize the benefit in having muscle that doesn't fall over at the first whisper of "color spray."

So any tricks for good will need to work by level 3.

[eggs]

A Fighter with the Resolute ACF (CChamp) matches good will progression at ECL 6 and exceeds it with additional levels.
Half-Dragon Paragons get good will.

But it doesn't sound like it would be inappropriate to just swap a thug's good save with Will. Otherwise, you have a good chance of dragging around some unwanted baggage (where every bodyguard casts hexes or challenges the PCs to single combat).

And that isn't against the rules - this situation is almost an exact match of the PHB's example of reasonable class modifications (p110).

[Nepenthe]

But it doesn't sound like it would be inappropriate to just swap a thug's good save with Will. Otherwise, you have a good chance of dragging around some unwanted baggage (where every bodyguard casts hexes or challenges the PCs to single combat).
I realize that is my right as a DM, but I ask my players to realize their character concepts using only 1st-party material (including Dragon Magazine). For me to do otherwise just feels unsporting.

[Essence_of_War]

Some other options that aren't quite full BAB, or aren't quite good-will save but can easily simulate it for low levels:

One level of Warblade gets access to moment of perfect mind to trade a will save for much more easily fortified concentration check.

One level of psychic warrior gets access to Empty Mind to get a will save boost. Hidden Talent: Empty Mind on a soulknife works also...

Iron Will (especially if they can take a flaw to get it!) really isn't the worst feat someone could take if they're a low-level heavy.

A low-level lawful incarnate can have effectively full BAB from its Incarnate Avatar, get good will saves AND invest essentia in crystal helm if necessary.

[Thurbane]

Deformity (Madness) feat renders a character immune to mind effects. It has 1 prereq feat, and causes -4 WIS.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Vecna-blooded is an easy LA+1 template that give you virtual immunity to mind-affecting, as well.

[GernifTheBard]

Generic Warrior from UA could give you full BAB and a good Will save.

[sonofzeal]

Scorpion's Resolve feat gives a +4 vs Mind-Affecting. It's more situation than Iron Will, but a big enough bonus to be worth taking if you're worried about that.

[eggs]

And going about this the other way, at level 3, an Expert with Weapon focus is effectively full BA/good will.

[ericgrau]

I'm envisioning Paladin 2/1 level in each base class/1 level in each prestige class for 20 BAB and 40+ will over 20 levels.

[dextercorvia]

I'm envisioning Paladin 2/1 level in each base class/1 level in each prestige class for 20 BAB and 40+ will over 20 levels.

If you are going that route, then Hexblade2 and Marshal1 are both worthwhile, as you can add your Cha 3 times to Will saves vs spells. A level in Warlock will get you Dark One's own luck for another +Cha to Will saves. Pious Templar1 is will favored and gets you mettle. (You could just go Hexblade3 instead.)

Instead of Paladin, take Paladin of Tyranny into Blackguard for a 5th dose of Cha to will saves vs spells (and 4 doses to will saves in general).

PoT3/Hexblade3/Warlock1/Marshall1/Blackguard2 gets +8+5*Cha to will saves vs spells.