Go

[Yora]

I've just been learning the rules of this game and it's actually quite simple.
But at the end of one tutorial there's three sample situations which you are supposed to figure out.

http://playgo.to/problem/tsumego.html
http://playgo.to/problem/tsumego2.html
http://playgo.to/problem/tsumego3.html

But I have not the slightest clue what the conditions for victory or defeat are.

The rules are simple:
- When stones are connected by lines, they form a group (a single stone is a 1-stone group).
- When a group has no more free intersections into which it could potentially expand, it's captured. (So you could potentially kill your own group by expanding into the last free space, which is an illegal move.)
- You can put a stone into a position where the group would not have any space to expand if that move kills a group of the opponent which makes space for your own group at the end of your turn.
- At the end of the game, you get one point for every empty intersection you control and one point for every stone you have captured.

To make things a lot more confusing, games are usually not played to the end and stops when both players realize that any move only fills up empty spaces already controlled by them, thus losing them points. Also, to experienced players it's apparently obvious which stones are already dead and what intersections are impossible to gain, so they are calculated as if they were actually controlled or captured.
Which appears to be the case with these three sample situations as well. However I do think that a normal victory by points is not the purpose of these examples, so I don't have the slightest what you're even supposed to do.

Any ideas?

Here's what I got so far:
Number 1

C13 > If I do anything else, C10/C11/C12 wont be able to connect with F11/F12 and white can close in to them and capture them.
B13 > B10/B11/B12/B13 is now protected by the A-column since it will take black forever to fill it up.
E13 > After this move, white will always go to D13 after which D11 and D12 only have to be filled up to capture C10/C11/C12/C13 By going E13, D13 could still potentially be captured by black going to D12.


However, by going on either D11 or D12, I would just speed along C10/C11/C12/C13 getting completely confined and they are captured by white within two moves. By not going there, it also takes white only two move to capture them, which is apparently the condition for defeat.

Number 2

B12 > This puts C12/D12/D11 in danger of being pushed to the top border. If you don't do this, white will attempt to do the same thing to E11/E12 and win.
B11 > This immediately threatens C11, forcing black to put encircling the other white ones on hold.
C10 > Only move to save C11, or instant defeat.
B13 > Threatens B12, which would also be instant win.
A12 > Save B12.
A11 > A12/B12 has no chance to escape.
D13 > I only found this in a guide for a similar situation and it does not make any sense, since A12/B12 will still be captured, but somehow you can still continue to play.
A13 > A12/B12 captured. Still no victory? :smallconfused:


White will then continue up from G11 and encircle the upper black stones. That seems to mean black is defeated.

Number 3

O19 > The only move that does not cause instant defeat by whites next move M18.
M18 > ???
N19 > Or N17/N18 is lost.
P19 > N17/N18/N19/O19 is now finished.


You can't prevent N17/N18/N19/O19 from being captured, but there's probably something to force white to act somewhere else.
Would be helpful if one knew what the victory condition is. :smallamused:

[Astrella]

It's actually not that hard to see if a formation capturable or not. Check out the article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_and_death) on the Big Wiki about alive formations; it basically comes down to having at least 2 eyes within your formation. (Just regular 1 position openings.) Two because capturing enemy pieces happens before a self-imposed capture of your own pieces would go off.

For the problems:

1:
At first I thought going C13 followed by White's B13 would start up a good chain. But that lead into easy capture by white. Then I realized that D13 is probably your best move. The stone there can't be captured and prevents White from playing C13, which they need to capture any of your stones. Playing E10 then let's you setup an easy capture of most of White's stones when followed up by F13 or G13 if white went F13. (Which they didn't.)

In retrospect; the white stones at C9-D9-D10 are basically trapped, unless white can connect them to another formation or capture some of your pieces. E11-E12 is going to have a difficult time escaping as well. Escaping along the edge of the board towards the right is really hard, since black can easily counter you there due to it's strong position. D13 I feel limits the majority of white's space to maneuver.

2:
After a bit of trying I think B12 is a good opening move to limit white's options and give you a lot of possibilities to expand. White follows by B11 to try and contain your stone against the edge and threatening to capture your stone at C10, so I played C10 to connect up my stones there. White responds by playing B13 in order to capture my first put down stone and secure an escape route. As I noted for the previous example, escaping to the right along the edge is very hard, since Black can easily counter that. Now I can't play A13 or C13 since they would result in my first stone getting captures and basically letting White escape. So I play A12. White responds by A11. This is understandable, but the advantage I have now is that white is filling up space but still has to crawl up against the wall I have two positions away from the left edge made up of those four Black stones. White still needs another move to capture my two stones so I'll play E13 to continue sealing him of and putting up some threat. White responded to that with F12, which I'm sorta curious, I get trying to stop the line I'm developing at E, but I'm a bit unsure why they didn't just capture. Probably to not lose momentum and let me develop more. D13 followed by White's E13 capturing my pieces, which is okay because I'll be able to seal off a lot more. Now, I need to fill up the formation he is developing so I can actually capture it. (If he has too much empty space remaining the formation will be hard to kill.) So I play B12 to both do that, and prevent my L formation from getting sealed off. White responds by capturing with A12, but now I can play C13 and force him to play B12 to save his three stones. (I couldn't do that before since A12 was still empty.) Playing B10 ends it then. (Since A10 won't save it. That specific formation is rather strong I feel; having a wall extending from the edge with the stone right next to the edge missing, since any attempt at getting past it can easily be sealed off.

I'll have a looksie at the others and update this as I go.

Also if anyone's ever up for playing a game online... (http://www.flyordie.com/go/)

[Yora]

1:D13 is indeed the way to start. Follow with E10 and you're pretty much done.

2 is mean. :smallbiggrin:
B12 > C10 > A12 > D13. Then the two in the corner get captured.
And then the magic happens: :smallcool:
B12!
It's immediately captured again, but white starts to suffocate itself in that little corner.
It's not immediately obvious for beginners.

I am still trying to figure out how that site works. Currently I only get a blank browser window. But don't expect today. I didn't sleep and will turn in early today. ^^

[Astrella]

2 is mean. :smallbiggrin:
B12 > C10 > A12 > D13. Then the two in the corner get captured.
And then the magic happens: :smallcool:
B12!
It's immediately captured again, but white starts to suffocate itself in that little corner.
It's not immediately obvious for beginners.

Yesh, I had to think about that one for a little bit, the B12 opening was fairly clear, but trying to contain white afterwards was a bit harder.


I am still trying to figure out how that site works. Currently I only get a blank browser window. But don't expect today. I didn't sleep and will turn in early today. ^^

Cool~

3:
I think the goal is just saving the majority of your stones. S18 and S19 are going to be hard to save though... The fact that they are connected to R17 makes them potentially quite important though.

[Partysan]

I love Go, but I'm extremely bad at it.

Solution I found for 3:
O19
M18
N19
P19
Q19
Q18
P18

[Eloel]

3

O19-N19-Q19-P18
gives breathing space in following moves. You kill 3 somehow no matter what they do.

[Yora]

I am still trying to figure out how that site works. Currently I only get a blank browser window. But don't expect today. I didn't sleep and will turn in early today. ^^
I think I got it. That site just has really messed up cookie-handling. It's not enough to allow it to use cookies, it requires you to set cookies so that all sites all the time can do it.

[Brother Oni]

- At the end of the game, you get one point for every empty intersection you control and one point for every stone you have captured.

Bear in mind that this is dependent on which of the two rule sets you're playing by. The version you've posted indicates you're playing by Japanese rules.

[Sharoth]

I have always wanted to learn how to play Go. Thanks for these post everyone. I will check out the sites myself this weekend.

[Bustamouse]

I got a Go app on my ipod forever ago, it seems to be the most counterintuitive game for me and try as I might I am unable to be good at it.

[Exachix]

I do enjoy go, but don't play it nearly often enough to have any skill.

Though after going through that site, I now want to play, and my set is at home.

[Astrella]

I do enjoy go, but don't play it nearly often enough to have any skill.

Though after going through that site, I now want to play, and my set is at home.

Check out the site I linked above~

[Yora]

I got a Go app on my ipod forever ago, it seems to be the most counterintuitive game for me and try as I might I am unable to be good at it.
I think that's the fun about it.

It's so complex with the huge board and almost infinitely many moves that you can't keep track of everything that's going on using logic, and instead have to rely on your intuition where opportunities and dangers are and to what situations your opponent pays attention to and where he is missing something that you can use against him. :smallbiggrin:
Just the kind of game to me. People often tell me I seem highly intelligent, but my strength lies in judging things, not calculating them.

But to hone your instincts, you probably have to play a lot of games and watch how others exploit the mistakes you made. So that you are able to spot these mistakes when your opponent makes them. :smallamused:

What particularly fascinates me is the aspect of chosing which battles to fight and when to cut your loses.
> The longer you fight for a contested area, the smaller it gets and the less valuable it becomes for the victor, so it might be better to give it up and try somewhere else.
> When your opponent stops attacking your position in one area, you must chose between strengthening your position, or stopping your opponent from expanding into another area, or trying to expand into a new area yourself.
> Every time you strengthen your position, you reduce your room to maneuver, which can lead to the loss of the entire area.

Some moves gain you nothing. But every move will cost you something. You can only lose, but in the end it only matters who lost worse. :smallbiggrin:
Chest is tactical, go is strategic.

[Emmerask]

Well actually chess in the old days was tactical (19th century) the current chess meta however is mostly strategic (positional play) and not tactical anymore.