Know ALL the psionic powers!

[mattsdelf]

I was reading some of the telepath abilities in Expanded Psionics, and I think I have found a way to learn every psionic power in the game. Thieving Mindlink is a power that lets you steal knowledge of a power, but only temporarily. Using this, you could lean any psionic power, but only one at a time, and only for 10 minutes per level. However, I want my character to know most of the high level powers. This ten minutes per level isn't nearly enough, so I looked towards the higher psionic telepath powers, specifically, Psychic Chirurgery. Psychic Chirurgery can transfer knowledge, permanently, of a power that you know. It's a shame it only works in the 'out' direction. But theoretically, ignoring the great exp costs, you could have your character use Thieving Mindlink to learn a spell short term, and then before the duration ends, use Psychic Chirurgery to transfer knowledge of the power to yourself. You now know two versions of the power, Thieving Mindlink will run out, and you will still be left with the power you stole, because you transferred knowledge of the power to yourself. Next, all you have to do is track down someone who knows any power you want, and thieve it from them. Because it doesn't count towards the maximum number of powers you can know, you can do this an infinite number of times, and gain any power you could conceivably want, even those that are of a separate discipline of psionics.

That's not all though, even if you don't start as a telepath, you could gain that ability. If I wanted to have, say, a Wilder know any power, I could use dorjes. They are like wands, except they are for psionic powers, and can be of any level power. Because of the telepath nature of the power, the power wouldn't be on your class list. You would need to make some 'use psionic device' checks to get this method to work. You would need a dorje of both powers. First thing's first, find a psion that knows Thieving Mindlink, and use the dorje of Thieving Mindlink to steal Thieving Mindlink. Now use the dorje of Psychic Chirurgery to permanently know Thieving Mindlink. Now, the Thieving Mindlink dorje is unnecessary. You can then thieve Psychic Chirurgery from someone who knows it, and use the wand of Psychic Chirurgery to permanently know Psychic Chirurgery.

But wait, there's more. Using dorjes means you don't have to pay the exp cost for Psychic Chirurgery. It also means you can use Psychic Chirurgery at any level you can use the dorje. So, at level 7 (Psion) or 8 (Wilder) when you can learn 4th level powers, you can permanently gain Thieving Mindlink, and then just use wands of Psychic Chirurgery. This takes all the exp costs away, and means you can use it at 8th level, to start learning all the powers ever. No feat req's, only one skill req, No exp cost, and any psionic class can do this. The only issue is getting the gold for the dorjes, and finding the dorjes.

Does anyone have any information that makes this practice more useful, maybe feats? Is there a rule I overlooked, or did I misinterpret something I read?

[sreservoir]

dorjing it will really eat into your WBL, though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

why not just be and erudite? adding new powers to your repetoire only costs 20xp per level of the power and a psicraft check. If you didn't know, erudite is a psion variant in the back of complete psionic.

[Madara]

why not just be and erudite? adding new powers to your repetoire only costs 20xp per level of the power and a psicraft check. If you didn't know, erudite is a psion variant in the back of complete psionic.

Its also online.

[mattsdelf]

Yeah, I found erudite, I didn't see it before because it is in the variants section. You can't learn 9th level powers with that, though I suppose it would be cheaper to just use a dorje for the 9th levels than for all the powers. This might be less gold demanding than my method, but I don't see anything wrong with what I propose. Erudite ties you down to one class, and only in a variant, And you can end up with more class features if you pick Wilder, and still get all the powers from the transfer knowledge. It also cancels out the negative aspect of the Wilder class, where they don't have a huge number of powers.

[Psyren]

Ruleswise, Chirurgery to learn every power ever is a-okay. It's just ridiculously expensive.

If you're going to do this, start with Erudite as was suggested (allowing you to save Chirurgery for the top-level or off-list stuff.) Also, take Leadership to get a Psionic Artificer on board.

[erikun]

Does anyone have any information that makes this practice more useful, maybe feats? Is there a rule I overlooked, or did I misinterpret something I read?
Start with two manifesters that have access to 9th level powers. Make sure one of them has Metaconcert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metaconcert.htm) and Psychic Chirugery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm).


Use Psychic Chirugery to transfer to powers Metaconcert and Psychic Chirugery to the other manifester, so that both know both powers.
Find a manifester that has the power you want.
Use Psychic Chirugery to transfer Metaconcert to the manifester.
Have one of your 9th level manifesters and our volunteer use Metaconcert together.
Have the Metaconcert-mind use Psychic Chirugery to transfer the volunteers powers to your other 9th level manifester.
Either use Psychic Chirugery to transfer the power to the other 9th level manifester afterwards, or repeat steps 4-5 with your other manifester.


Congratulations, you now have the newest power permanently.

Why would someone volunteer for this process? Well, first of all, the volunteer is getting free powers with this - Metaconcert, at least, and offering to give then new powers in exchange is also a good deal.

And secondly, if the volunteer is part of the party, they could choose to give out their powers, swap out the powers, and get the previous powers back through Psychic Chirugery. They end up with more powers known than they otherwise should, and our 9th level manifesters get new powers they wouldn't otherwise have access to. In a party full of manifesters, you could hand out everyones' powers to everyone else (although only at a high level).

[Morph Bark]

Start with two manifesters that have access to 9th level powers. Make sure one of them has Metaconcert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metaconcert.htm) and Psychic Chirugery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm).


Use Psychic Chirugery to transfer to powers Metaconcert and Psychic Chirugery to the other manifester, so that both know both powers.
Find a manifester that has the power you want.
Use Psychic Chirugery to transfer Metaconcert to the manifester.
Have one of your 9th level manifesters and our volunteer use Metaconcert together.
Have the Metaconcert-mind use Psychic Chirugery to transfer the volunteers powers to your other 9th level manifester.
Either use Psychic Chirugery to transfer the power to the other 9th level manifester afterwards, or repeat steps 4-5 with your other manifester.


Congratulations, you now have the newest power permanently.

Why would someone volunteer for this process? Well, first of all, the volunteer is getting free powers with this - Metaconcert, at least, and offering to give then new powers in exchange is also a good deal.

And secondly, if the volunteer is part of the party, they could choose to give out their powers, swap out the powers, and get the previous powers back through Psychic Chirugery. They end up with more powers known than they otherwise should, and our 9th level manifesters get new powers they wouldn't otherwise have access to. In a party full of manifesters, you could hand out everyones' powers to everyone else (although only at a high level).

The Psychic Totalitarian Party salutes you!

[Aotrs Commander]

One day, I'm going to play a Spell-to-Power Erudite with Thieving Mindlink and then use my spinny eyes to Sharigarn every spell I encounter.

Yes, yes, I know they stopped StP Erudite from learning divine spells, don't spoil the moment!

[Morph Bark]

Actually, if you have an immortal StP Erudite who can spend all his life getting all spells as powers, who then grants all those powers to an Elan Psion/Thrallherd. Voila, no limit of on amount of powers per day, have every power and spell-as-power ever, plus you live forever and you can grant powers to the people who serve you well. Perfect dictator.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Actually, if you have an immortal StP Erudite who can spend all his life getting all spells as powers, who then grants all those powers to an Elan Psion/Thrallherd. Voila, no limit of on amount of powers per day, have every power and spell-as-power ever, plus you live forever and you can grant powers to the people who serve you well. Perfect dictator.

Though, frankly, getting around the Unique Powers (Per Level) Per Day is not hard - especially if you've already got Metaconcert.

Also:


Start with two manifesters that have access to 9th level powers. Make sure one of them has Metaconcert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metaconcert.htm) and Psychic Chirugery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm).


Use Psychic Chirugery to transfer to powers Metaconcert and Psychic Chirugery to the other manifester, so that both know both powers.
Find a manifester that has the power you want.
Use Psychic Chirugery to transfer Metaconcert to the manifester.
Have one of your 9th level manifesters and our volunteer use Metaconcert together.
Have the Metaconcert-mind use Psychic Chirugery to transfer the volunteers powers to your other 9th level manifester.
Either use Psychic Chirugery to transfer the power to the other 9th level manifester afterwards, or repeat steps 4-5 with your other manifester.


Congratulations, you now have the newest power permanently.


What necessitates the step in blue? You don't need to have Metaconcert to join a Metaconcert. Also, why have the Metaconcert transfer powers to someone outside the Metaconcert? Wouldn't you be a valid target for Psychic Chirurgery on the part of the Metaconcert, even if you're part of the Metaconcert?

Also, we all know that the Ardent can get access to nines by virtue of Practiced Manifesting - but couldn't any manifester with sufficient ML learn ninth level powers (by virtue of the above use of Psychic Chirurgery) and since they can spend the points to manifest them, then manifest them?

[erikun]

What necessitates the step in blue? You don't need to have Metaconcert to join a Metaconcert.
Ah, I guess I was remembering older versions of Metaconcert which required all participants to know and use the power to participate.


Also, why have the Metaconcert transfer powers to someone outside the Metaconcert? Wouldn't you be a valid target for Psychic Chirurgery on the part of the Metaconcert, even if you're part of the Metaconcert?
I suppose you technically could, but I certainly wouldn't want to spend 17 levels on a character only to find my DM ruling otherwise. The idea that a character actively controlling a psionic power cannot count themselves as "another" character isn't entirely unreasonable.

Practical application, rather than theoretical application.


Also, we all know that the Ardent can get access to nines by virtue of Practiced Manifesting - but couldn't any manifester with sufficient ML learn ninth level powers (by virtue of the above use of Psychic Chirurgery) and since they can spend the points to manifest them, then manifest them?
No, the character must be able to manifest powers at that level to receive a power through Psychic Chirurgery.

Ardents are unusual because they can learn powers based on their manifester level - thus, a character with 17th level Ardent manifesting can learn 9th-level powers, even if they don't have 17 levels or Ardent (or even 17 character levels). Every other class has a limit on when they can learn powers. Psions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) cannot learn 9th-level powers until they are a 17th level Psion manifester, period. Psychic Warriors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) cannot learn 7th-level powers at all. No amount of ML-increasing tricks will get around this restriction for those classes.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I suppose you technically could, but I certainly wouldn't want to spend 17 levels on a character only to find my DM ruling otherwise. The idea that a character actively controlling a psionic power cannot count themselves as "another" character isn't entirely unreasonable.

Practical application, rather than theoretical application.

Well, you're not the one manifesting the power, the Metaconcert is. And, if it is a problem, have the other manifester control the Metaconcert (diplo/charm/dominate as necessary/appropriate for the character). I'd consider that practical, but YMMV.


No, the character must be able to manifest powers at that level to receive a power through Psychic Chirurgery.

Ardents are unusual because they can learn powers based on their manifester level - thus, a character with 17th level Ardent manifesting can learn 9th-level powers, even if they don't have 17 levels or Ardent (or even 17 character levels). Every other class has a limit on when they can learn powers. Psions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) cannot learn 9th-level powers until they are a 17th level Psion manifester, period. Psychic Warriors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) cannot learn 7th-level powers at all. No amount of ML-increasing tricks will get around this restriction for those classes.

Damn, I missed that line.

[icefractal]

Actually, to get almost all the powers (everything except max-level discipline powers), you can just use Psychic Reformation. It costs XP, but 50xp (for everything non-discipline), and and 50-150xp (for discipline or other class's powers, depends when your last feat was) is tiny compared to Psychic Chirurgury's cost. Saves a lot of time on tracking people down.

For that matter, Psychic Reformation is pretty damn good on its own. I never really noticed it until I ended up playing a Psion with it, and that thing it worth its weight in gold. 50xp to have any power at your fingertips? Or ranks in any skills? Or just a few more for the feat you need? And not just you - the whole party, if necessary.

[mattsdelf]

Oh, I never thought about Psychic Reformation. You could take the Expanded Knowledge feat to learn a discipline power, and then switch it out for whichever discipline power you want. For that matter, Have someone else do this, and then while they know each discipline power individually, have them use Psychic Chirurgery to transfer it. Then, when they switch it out, Psychic Chirurgery it back to them.

[PhaedrusXY]

Another trick is to know the power Feat Leech, and have a friend with the feat Expanded Knowledge. Then use Feat Leech to "borrow" their Expanded Knowledge feat. Technically you should be able to then use that borrowed Expanded Knowledge to temporarily learn any power you want (although I'm sure many DMs would restrict you to only learning the power that the target had learned via their Expanded Knowledge feat).

[Cor1]

Great, most of the above tricks do work by RAW.

Also, Erudites? Learn Soul Crystal from Magic of Incarnum. What limit per day again?