Want to make a bear playable

[zawesome]

So i saw a post on 4chan about making a bear rogue character and i was wondering how i could make a character out of a race that the core rulebook says is unplayable.

---edit---
I dont want to play a bear like thing, or a druid in bear form, i want to be a bear.

[rel]

Play the druids animal companion. You even get a free druid to do things like talk to people open doors cast buffs on you and buy and maintain armour and weapons for you.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well, there's always Anthropomorphic Bears.

That, and you could try to convince your DM to let you play an awakened bear.

[JeminiZero]

Or you could play a werebear and stay in bear form all day. But the LA is usually not worthwhile.

Or, there's homebrew...

[Mithril Leaf]

Were-Bear and just stay in hybrid form all the time.

EDIT: FREAKING NINJAS

[newBlazingAngel]

I wrote out a bunch of stuff than forum error 503'ed me. :smallmad:

Bears:

+4 to strength
-2 dexterity
-2 wisdom. Bears are creatures of impulse.

Charisma is very situational. If the bear is toddlign around like winnie the pooh, high charisma. If it's growling with teeth bared and hair on end, very low, but circumstance bonus to intimidate.

Bears get -2 penalty to spot checks due to naturally poor vision (real)

Natural weapons teeth and claws. Teeth do 1d8. Claws do 1d6 +1. A miss has a chance to stagger.

Bears can not use small weapons, fragile weapons, or those that require intricate movement or skill that could otherwise not be performed by bear paws.

[hushblade]

If that bear rogue involved a bluff check to fake a language, I've been looking for that. a link or PM would be awesome.

[zawesome]

I wrote out a bunch of stuff than Charisma is very situational. If the bear is toddlign around like winnie the pooh, high charisma. If it's growling with teeth bared and hair on end, very low, but circumstance bonus to intimidate.

isn't intimidate attached to charisma anyway *high charisma=high intimidate*?

[zawesome]

Well, there's always Anthropomorphic Bears.

That, and you could try to convince your DM to let you play an awakened bear.

I cant tell if the italics are sarcasm or just emphasis....
If you're serious please explain

[Fyermind]

Frostburn has a race that is very bearlike: Urksan iirc

Druid 5 is a bear.

Bear warrior becomes a bear when it rages. (CWar)

[newBlazingAngel]

isn't intimidate attached to charisma anyway *high charisma=high intimidate*?

I always thought intimidation should receive bonuses based off of things that base from charisma, but not the charisma bonus itself. Charisma controls how good you are with people and your general appearance. A half orc who has six charisma because a dragon chewed on his face should be better at intimidation than Elan the dashing swordsman with 17 charisma.

[Terazul]

I cant tell if the italics are sarcasm or just emphasis....
If you're serious please explain

They mean as in Awakened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) as per the spell.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I cant tell if the italics are sarcasm or just emphasis....
If you're serious please explain

I'm dead serious. A bear can be the target of an awaken spell.

I just wonder if your DM will be able to bear you playing a bear.

[newBlazingAngel]

I just wonder if your DM will be able to bear you playing a bear.

I'm not sure whether to applaud or smite you for that.

[kardar233]

I'm not sure whether to applaud or smite you for that.

You might just have to grin and bear it.

[zawesome]

The awakened spell idea could actually add a cool backstory for the character. i also dont think a bear could use any sort of weapon/armor/cloths that weren't custom built for it

[Gavinfoxx]

Druid 9 with Frozen Wild Shape who spends 24/7 in the form of an Urskan.

You can still talk, use tools, weapons, etc. etc.

[zawesome]

I'm dead serious.
I just wonder if your DM will be able to bear you playing a bear.

i actually think he's sick of my carp

[willpell]

It would be really nice if Wizards had ever officially explained how to calculate Level Adjustment for Awakened Animal characters. It comes up all the time in my campaign world, because I treat familiars and animal companions and such as characters in their own right after a fashion, and I would love to be able to directly compare them to the power level of Cohorts by just flat-out building them as Level X characters. You can play a baby dragon with no hands and no spells to function as hands, so there's really no excuse for any creature with Intelligence not having rules to let you play them.

[zawesome]

all they really need to give you is an ECL and you can go from there

[GnomeGninjas]

-2 wisdom. Bears are creatures of impulse.

Wisdom is instincts.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Bears:

+4 to strength
-2 dexterity
-2 wisdom. Bears are creatures of impulse.

Charisma is very situational. If the bear is toddlign around like winnie the pooh, high charisma. If it's growling with teeth bared and hair on end, very low, but circumstance bonus to intimidate.



Bears should get a large Charisma penalty - they're bearly restrained psychopathic killers.

And the Number One Threat to America, of course.

[mattie_p]

It would be really nice if Wizards had ever officially explained how to calculate Level Adjustment for Awakened Animal characters. It comes up all the time in my campaign world, because I treat familiars and animal companions and such as characters in their own right after a fashion, and I would love to be able to directly compare them to the power level of Cohorts by just flat-out building them as Level X characters. You can play a baby dragon with no hands and no spells to function as hands, so there's really no excuse for any creature with Intelligence not having rules to let you play them.

Yeah, unfortunately, you have to wade through SS and calculate it yourself using the arcane "add for this, subtract for that" that they suggested. One note, though, awaken adds two hit dice to the animal. The minimum level adjustment is 0 (aside from the broken incarnate construct), so you get a minimum starting ECL of the now magical beast's hit dice.

[Flickerdart]

There's a handy dandy little power called Astral Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) which, if combined with Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitch.htm) would allow you to permanently usurp the body of any creature. The Body Leech (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925a) can perform a similar technique. Since psionics do not require you to speak or gesture, a bear's body does not hinder your manifesting at all.

The advantage of this method is that you are a Tier 2 character with the body of a bear and no LA, but both methods require you to be high level (level 16 for the Body Leech and level 15 for the Astral Seed method) to pull them off. It's certainly possible to do them earlier using Ardent, custom mantles and ML pumping, though.

[Dire Panda]

Strange, I had this exact conversation with a friend yesterday.

There are plenty of good ideas in this thread already, but here's another one: apply the half-(something) template to the bear species of your choice. Half-celestial, half-fiend, and half-dragon all give the bear enough INT to be playable, and would certainly lead to interesting backstories even if they're not mechanically optimal.

[newBlazingAngel]

Bears should get a large Charisma penalty - they're bearly restrained psychopathic killers.

And the Number One Threat to America, of course.

They're peaceful omnivores that only attack if you get all up in their grill. *finger snaps*

Or if their being controlled by a chaotic player but whatever.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I wrote out a bunch of stuff than forum error 503'ed me. :smallmad:

Bears:

+4 to strength
-2 dexterity
-2 wisdom. Bears are creatures of impulse.

Charisma is very situational. If the bear is toddlign around like winnie the pooh, high charisma. If it's growling with teeth bared and hair on end, very low, but circumstance bonus to intimidate.

Bears get -2 penalty to spot checks due to naturally poor vision (real)

Natural weapons teeth and claws. Teeth do 1d8. Claws do 1d6 +1. A miss has a chance to stagger.

Bears can not use small weapons, fragile weapons, or those that require intricate movement or skill that could otherwise not be performed by bear paws.

Actually, a bear (assuming black, for a moment*) would have +8 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, and -4 Charisma, going strictly by the rules, with claws that deal 1d4 and a bite that deals 1d6. Not to mention the +2 natural armor. Furthermore, I don't know why you'd give the bear a chance to be staggered on an attack, since nobody else in the entire system has that.

*A brown bear would have +16 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +8 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma with 1d8 claws, a 2d6 bite, and +5 natural armor, while a dire bear would have the same, but a +20 Strength, 2d4 claws, a 2d8 bite, and +7 natural armor instead.


If that bear rogue involved a bluff check to fake a language, I've been looking for that. a link or PM would be awesome.

Here you go, the story of Sir Bearington:

http://lolbot.net/pix/21015.png

For future reference, easily found by searching "Sir Bearington"

Anyway, OP, an awakened bear is probably your best bet if you legitimately want to be a bear. Point out to your DM that you have 4 racial hit dice for some decent stat boosts, but the inability to wield weapons and standing out like a sore thumb everywhere you go. Shouldn't need any LA, if you ask me, but he may feel differently.

[VGLordR2]

If that bear rogue involved a bluff check to fake a language, I've been looking for that. a link or PM would be awesome.

Is this it? (http://i.imgur.com/wkZhp.png)

[Siosilvar]

I cant tell if the italics are sarcasm or just emphasis....
If you're serious please explain

Italics are the standard way to refer to a spell by name. Rather, it's the way the books do it.

[ThiagoMartell]

I'm figuring zawesome is very new to 3.5 :smalltongue:
Just go with awaken. Alternatively, refluff a quaggoth. They are from either Underdark or Monsters of Faerun.

[Xallace]

You could be an awakened bear Barbarian / Bear Warrior.

That way you're a bear that becomes a bigger, stronger bear when in a fight.

Be a bear cub and yell "Shazam!" when you enter rage.

[Andorax]

So i saw a post on 4chan about making a bear rogue character and i was wondering how i could make a character out of a race that the core rulebook says is unplayable.

---edit---
I dont want to play a bear like thing, or a druid in bear form, i want to be a bear.

Bolded for emphasis.

You can't.

A Druid in bear form is a druid.
A Werebear is a part-humanoid that has bear-like characteristics.
An anthropomorphic bear is a bear with humanoid-like characteristics.
An awakened bear is a magical beast that was formerly a bear.

A bear...just plain bear...has an Int of 2. It's an animal, with sub-sentient reasoning abilities. There's a reason it's considered "unplayable".

The previous posters have provided a slew of bear-like alternatives...feel free to choose whichever one is "close enough" for your purposes.

[Kuulvheysoon]

They're peaceful omnivores that only attack if you get all up in their grill. *finger snaps*

Or if their being controlled by a chaotic player but whatever.

Actually, that was a Stephen Colbeart reference.

Did you see what I did there?

[Kallisti]

Actually, that was a Stephen Colbeart reference.

Oh, well, really.

This is simply unbearable.

[zawesome]

I'm figuring zawesome is very new to 3.5 :smalltongue:

yea. i literally just started 3.5 this weekend.

[Siosilvar]

Oh, well, really.

This is simply unbearable.

No, stop, this is not turning into another one of those bear pun threads. They always just end up polarizing people. ;)

[zawesome]

So we ended up going for the Awakened bear idea.

[SowZ]

An anthropomorphic bear in savage species is the only RAW way you could do it, I think.

[TuggyNE]

No, stop, this is not turning into another one of those bear pun threads. They always just end up polarizing people.

I see the grizzly pun you made there.

I'm sorry!

[newBlazingAngel]

Awakened bear is probably best bet for playable. Anything else would be far too powerful.

[marcielle]

Remember, if you attack with more than 1 natural attack, the subsequent ones take -5 penalty, so after the first few levels, simply clawing and eating face becomes a less viable technique. Especially once the other meelees get the iteratives. They also take -5 but have the full bab thing to back it up.

[Frosty]

The only problem with playing a bear (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Volibear_the_Thunder%27s_Roar/SkinsTrivia) is that sometimes you have to face an angry Chronokeeper (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Zilean_the_Chronokeeper/SkinsTrivia) from an opposing 5-person team.

But, on the other hand, if you're lucky, your can have a fight like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FBXOrb6loQ) in your campaign.

[Devils_Advocate]

Yeah, unfortunately, you have to wade through SS and calculate it yourself using the arcane "add for this, subtract for that" that they suggested.
Nah, no need for that. Just look at the rules for playable lycanthropes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm): They all have the same level adjustment, under the assumption that animals tend to have physical advantages proportionate to their number of hit dice. Clearly it makes sense for awakened animals to be balanced the same way. The only question is what their level adjustment should be. So let's contrast an awakened animal to a human lycanthrope:

- No bonus feat and no bonus skill points
- Same to slightly higher Wisdom, same to slightly lower Charisma
- Two additional racial hit dice (Boooooo!)
- Magical Beast type (but with Animal hit dice)
- Natural Armor 2 points lower
- No humanoid forms
- No lycanthropic empathy
- Can't infect others with lycanthropy
- No damage reduction

All things considered, given that a lycanthrope is LA +2 or +3, I'd call an awakened animal LA +0.

I actually wrote up the racial traits for an awakened flying squirrel once. Wait, let me dig that up. Ah, here we are:

Because I do in fact have enough time for this:

Glide (Ex): When flying, an awakened flying squirrel cannot gain altitude.

Awakened Flying Squirrels as Characters


-8 Strength (minimum 1), +4 Dexterity, +4 Widsom, -4 Charisma (minimum 1).
An awakened flying squirrel is a Magical Beast with the Augmented Animal subtype.
Tiny size. +2 bonus to Armor Class, +2 bonus on attack rolls, +8 bonus on Hide checks, -8 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ½ those of Medium characters.
Space/Reach: 2.5 feet/0 feet.
An awakened flying squirrel's base land speed is 20 feet. It also has a climb speed of 20 feet and a fly speed of 10 feet with clumsy maneuverability (but see Glide, above).
Low-light vision.
Racial Hit Dice: An awakened flying squirrel begins with two levels of animal, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +3, and Will +0.
Racial Skills: An awakened flying squirrel's animal levels give it skill points equal to 5 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Balance, Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot. Awakened flying squirrels have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. An awakened flying squirrel uses its Dexterity modifier for Climb checks. It can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.
Racial Feats: An awakened flying squirrel's animal levels give it one feat.
Natural Weapons: Bite (1d3).
Special Qualities (see above): Glide, Scent.
Automatic Language: Druidic. Bonus Languages: Any.
Favored Class: Druid.
Level adjustment +0.


Almost all of this is based on the flying squirrel's stats from Dragon magazine #327 and the awaken spell description.

Only the favored class and level adjustment are suggestions.

I assume that an awakened animal starts off with Neutral alignment and a druid's ethos (though both of these may change).

To convert a flying squirrel to a regular squirrel, remove the Glide special quality and add Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

[mattie_p]

Well, unfortunate, in addition to there being no official template (which makes some DMs frown on that), awaken adds two hit dice. (Also, no awaken loops - changes type to magical beast, an invalid target for the spell). But anyway, you start with a minimum of 5 racial hit dice. Str +8, Dex +2, Con +4, Wis +2. The stats alone are worth at least an LA +1, if not +2. Compare to Ogre, if you will, regardless of drawbacks.

3.5 is definitely targeted towards humanoid race player-characters.

Anyway, no official template and if the DM comes here and asks, Curmudgeon will rule against it anyway (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13288068&postcount=109) as against RAW. DM is on their own, and many won't bother.

[Flickerdart]

Also, no awaken loops - changes type to magical beast, an invalid target for the spell
Polymorph Any Object is your friend.

[mattie_p]

Polymorph Any Object is your friend.

Permanent duration, even if attained (up to dm) is a problem for anyone who encounters dispel magic. Don't go into a dead magic area or AMF.

Also, no creature with an int of 3 or up can be animal, only good for pumping CHA. and who pumps charisma?

Awaken gains 2 HD every time.

Text trumps table, which all the data there is in table, therefore up to DM to throw a book at you.

Also based on polymorph, guaranteed to get books thrown at you, because no one knows what is going on there anymore with all of the errata on that line of spells.

[Flickerdart]

Uh, no.

Step 1: Polymorph Any Object something into an animal.
Step 2: It is now a valid target for Awaken.
Step 3: It is now a magical beast.
Step 4: GOTO 1

The duration of the PAO effect is immaterial.

[mattie_p]

So... even if your DM allows that, you gain 2 hit dice every time (and a possible LA every time), and spend WBL for each iteration. Does that sound like a good deal to gain 1d3 charisma with absolutely no class levels gained? And it is all lost if you get dispelled? Please, sign me up now.

[Flickerdart]

So... even if your DM allows that, you gain 2 hit dice every time (and a possible LA every time), and spend WBL for each iteration. Does that sound like a good deal to gain 1d3 charisma with absolutely no class levels gained? And it is all lost if you get dispelled? Please, sign me up now.
Nothing is lost if you get dispelled, because Awaken is Instantaneous. Also, after every three Awakenings, you kill yourself six times and get Reincarnated, losing the HD but keeping the three feats you got from them, plus the 3d3 Charisma. And that's if you use vanilla Awaken - an Empowered one gives you much nicer stuff.

[awa]

i personally believe very few dm would let that fly.
i personally would rule each awakening creates a new personality which would very much not want to be erased so the next personality can have higher stats

[Flickerdart]

It's not like it's very difficult to override personalities to bring back one you liked.

[LadyLexi]

What would a good homebrew LA+HD be 7 possibly 8?

Can an awakened Bear take (Craft):Basketweaving?

[mattie_p]

Nothing is lost if you get dispelled, because Awaken is Instantaneous. Also, after every three Awakenings, you kill yourself six times and get Reincarnated, losing the HD but keeping the three feats you got from them, plus the 3d3 Charisma. And that's if you use vanilla Awaken - an Empowered one gives you much nicer stuff.

Actually, you lose the feats too, check DMG page 296. Also, once you get polymorphed into an animal, in preparation for awaken, your intelligence is either 1 or 2 and your LA becomes null, both of which mean that the creature can no longer be a PC.

And now you're adding reincarnate, for additional spellcaster costs. Just how are you paying for this, and at what level? And where are you going shopping for the negative levels anyway, "The Hungry Succubus"? And why do people still believe that awaken loops still work?

[The Glyphstone]

If we bring all of our optimization to bear, what you'll end up with is Bearington Bearman the Bearbearian.
1) Start with an Anthropomorphic Black Bear from Savage Species.
2) Apply the Dustform Creature template and Incarnate Construct template.
3) Become afflicted with Lycanthropy by a were-bear.
4) Take a level of Barbarian with the Bear Totem ACF.
5) Prestige class into Bear Warrior.
6) Prestige class into Animal Lord (Bear).
7) Take the feats Wild Cohort, Improved Unarmed Strike, Sacred Vow, and Vow of Poverty.

When the dust settles, you have an anthropomorphic bear who worships bears, can turn into a bear, get angry and turn into a bear (again), talk to bears, summon bears, have a pet bear, fight with his bear hands, and carry only the bear essentials.

Now that I've committed such a grizzly string of bear puns, prepare for pandamonium as the thread becomes completely polarized. It might be worth a Kodiak moment though.

[RFLS]

If we bring all of our optimization to bear, what you'll end up with is Bearington Bearman the Bearbearian.
1) Start with an Anthropomorphic Black Bear from Savage Species.
2) Apply the Dustform Creature template and Incarnate Construct template.
3) Become afflicted with Lycanthropy by a were-bear.
4) Take a level of Barbarian with the Bear Totem ACF.
5) Prestige class into Bear Warrior.
6) Prestige class into Animal Lord (Bear).
7) Take the feats Wild Cohort, Improved Unarmed Strike, Sacred Vow, and Vow of Poverty.

When the dust settles, you have an anthropomorphic bear who worships bears, can turn into a bear, get angry and turn into a bear (again), talk to bears, summon bears, have a pet bear, fight with his bear hands, and carry only the bear essentials.

Now that I've committed such a grizzly string of bear puns, prepare for pandamonium as the thread becomes completely polarized. It might be worth a Kodiak moment though.

@The Glyphstone- May I sig this? I can bearly stand up for laughing so hard. It's really quite a spectacle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectacled_bear).

[The Glyphstone]

@The Glyphstone- May I sig this? I can bearly stand up for laughing so hard. It's really quite a spectacle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectacled_bear).

Of co-ursus you can.

[RFLS]

Of co-ursus you can.

Thanks. I wouldn't want to ursurp your quote. That wouldn't be very sunny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_bear) of me.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, you lose the feats too, check DMG page 296.
"It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed." Specific trumps general. GG.


And why do people still believe that awaken loops still work?
Because they do.

[mattie_p]

Flickerdart, my apologies for not being clear, the level loss causes the character to lose feats, skills, etc, in addition to hit dice. The page I specified is clear on that, as is the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#levelLoss) So you burn away the hit dice, feats, skills, and I guess just about everything except for your CHA.

So except for the part we disagree on (Int 2 creatures still being treated as PCs) you've got a charismatic creature that serves the druid in specific tasks (as per awaken), that spent all its money to be PAO'd and awakened (multiple times), then slain and reincarnated, possibly multiple times, or level drained, slain, and reincarnated, all for more money.

No thought bottle, as you must be the same creature, and not even the character knows what it is anymore. Can we ice assassin a simulacra of an aleax of a solar in there somewhere? :smallbiggrin:

[Suddo]

I'm away from my books at the moment what are the requirements for the smallest anthropomorphic bear from savage species (RHD & LA), I just want to see how much you lose (if LA buyoff is allowed) from being one cause I may play this at some point.
Also are there rules for faking a language with bluff?

[Flickerdart]

Flickerdart, my apologies for not being clear, the level loss causes the character to lose feats, skills, etc, in addition to hit dice. The page I specified is clear on that, as is the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#levelLoss) So you burn away the hit dice, feats, skills, and I guess just about everything except for your CHA.
That is the general rule. The specific rule says you keep your feats and your class features.

[mattie_p]

You cannot keep what you no longer have. Each time a character is reincarnated, the character experiences a level loss. But it appears we disagree.

[Suddo]

So... Assuming LA buyoff:
Sir Bearington
Anthropmorphic Black Bear (2 RHD) Bard 5 / Incarnate 3 / IncarnumArcane PrC 10
Basically pump Charisma and Con, you have naturally high Wisdom so dump that stat.
You should be able to get a lot of bonuses from being a bard and having soulmelds to help with Bluff and Disguise checks. I'd write more but I really do feel like filling the whole build out.