[3.5] E6 in Actual Practice?

[Unusual Muse]

I'd be interested in hearing from people who've played E6 beyond 6th level for a fair period of time... is it enjoyable after you stop formally leveling? What is the same/different from the player's standpoint?

My gaming group is sort of split between dedicated role-players and those who would like to see character mechanics develop through a higher level of play (prestige classes, watching their builds unfold, etc.). E6 looks great on paper, but I'm wondering if there's really room for everyone at the E6 table based on people's actual in-game experiences.

[Gnorman]

Disclaimer: I rarely play. I mostly DM. My observations, then, tend to be limited to one side of the table.

In my experience, E6 is a pretty drastic shift of expectations, but it remains absolutely a fun one. You have to keep in mind that you're not going to become dimension-hopping, god-killing superheroes, but I don't know too many people who start playing D&D for that express purpose (at least, not if they know about Exalted). E6 is much better at exploring morally ambiguous, political, and gritty games, I feel, because there's so little room for supreme cosmic beings to actually join in the fun and idealogical manifestations (like any extraplanar creature) tend to be of a smaller scale. You're not going to face a balor, but you may face a cabal of evil wizards who are trying to summon one, which is just as threatening - a balor is essentially an apocalypse scenario to an E6 world.

E6 to me is what D&D was originally designed as - powerful (but not superhuman) heroes facing daunting challenges in dangerous environments, with the threat of death lurking around every corner. E6 encourages planning, tactics, strategy, and caution - rather than assault the enemy directly, knowing that if you fail the cleric can raise you, you have to face the very real possibility that if you die, it's time for a new character. In some respects, that ups the bookkeeping factor, but I think it's a worthy sacrifice. No revolving door after life means that the hereafter, the supernatural, deities, maintain a certain amount of distance and mystery. And that's what perhaps is best about E6 - though you can easily become a big damn hero, you're always going to have to recognize that there are bigger fish (and those bigger fish don't always have to have plot armor or DM fiat on their side in order to challenge players, unlike in high-level or epic play). I find that a sense of impending doom and microscopic relevance (in small, reasonable doses - you don't want them to feel completely impotent) tends to cut down on the "me first and me only" attitude of some players. If done poorly, this can make the players feel like the game is going on around them, rather than for them, but done correctly, it can be like the following Margaret Mead quote: “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” Has there ever been a more appropriate metaphor for the D&D party?

Mechanically, I find the increasing numbers of feats to be great, and instead of increasing the power of my characters, I find myself increasing their versatility. I feel that makes them more well-rounded - some of the pressure to overspecialize is off the player (because with so many feats, other members of the party may start to overlap with them in certain areas), and I find that lets them relax and enjoy themselves a bit more than making sure they're always at the top of their game. But then, I tend to play in high-optimization environments.

E6 is, unfortunately, not a build master's playground, and while you can do a bit, the simple fact is that there just aren't enough levels to really see the fun stuff come to fruition. But I find that also takes the pressure of players in the sense that they don't have to wait until 10th or 15th (or even 20th) level to be "done" - though they have less to work with, they get there faster and spend less time floundering around waiting to become useful (I assume a certain amount of "investment time" here, time spent waiting to gain a PrC's signature ability - not all builds are like that). Learn to love feats.

Just the experience of one man, who will never, ever go back (unless forced to). "Once you E6, the rest you will nix."

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm also DMing an E6 game, and a large one in fact (10 players, going up to 11), with players of varying styles, and I'm finally getting to the point where feats start to happen in place of levels (three players are level 6, with four more within 1,000; of the three that are level 6, one is almost at his first epic feat). There is something that appeals to the entire group in an E6 environment, but it usually requires a bit of a perspective shift. For instance, I have two optimizers in my group, and one munchkin (who unfortunately doesn't have the knack for optimization). The munchkin was initially upset about the transition to E6 because we had a 15-level build planned out for him initially (courtesy of Yours Truly), but was more receptive when I showed him how the things he wanted to do were possible in E6, but with build changes, and further, the feat selection lets him mold his focus a lot more easily as time goes on. One of the optimizers (who is more character-centric) was initially opposed, because he was afraid the cutoff point (6th level) was going to gimp some concepts and leave him overpowered through the whole game (he basically went Warblade the whole 6 levels, made generally smart picks at every turn, etc). I convinced him that the casters (while initially weak) come into their own and become a driving force by 6th, but E6 stops shy of their break point, where things like Polymorph and Planar Binding abuse become possible. And the other optimizer (who is a build optimizer)? The one you would think would feel the most limited by the switch? He dove headfirst into the idea, working up a large number of builds and talking about all the cool things he wanted to do in E6 that are made possible by feats, etc. (He ended up being a Kineticist 6 with Psionic Body and a ton of Psionic feats.)

The system is also friendly to lower-op characters: at low levels, the game does not require nearly as much bookkeeping, and you can build a viable character all the way to 6th using just base classes (and often will), so you don't have to dig through dozens of books to find the best PrC to advance your concept or whatever (usually, the PrC just won't matter). In terms of system mechanics, the game is no different from a typical D&D game before level 6 (and both are murderous), but the game never turns into rocket tag (with audience) afterward.

If you want a more high-powered game, it is also very modular. The creator suggested feats of his making, but ther options exist. For my game, I created three types of epic feat chains: Epic Base feats (which advance certain abilities of a base class beyond 6th level, such as a Warblade's Battle X abilities, or limited access to 4th-level spells, maneuvers, or mysteries; in my group, the Magus, Shadowcaster, and to a lesser extent the Psion are pursuing this option), Prestige feats (which advance certain abilities of prestige classes which the character has levels in or qualifies before beyond the level limit, such as the Shadowdancer's shadow jump ability; in my game, the Barbarian is pursuing Beastmaster and the Bard is pursuing Swiftblade using this method), and Gestalt feats (which advance certain abilities of another base class based on the feat progression using the number of prestige feats tied to that class as your effective level in that class for the granted ability, such as the various abilities of a Factotum, or a Wizard's spellcasting; thus far the Warblade has pursued Wizard and the Rogue is considering pursuing Psion using this method). Each of these is a feat chain, with each type mutually exclusive to each other (one cannot take both epic and gestalt feats) and mutually exclusive within the same type (one cannot take gestalt chains in Wizard, Factotum, Psion and Warblade with the same character). It gives players something to build toward in epic levels that levels would ordinarily be required to cover, but lets the DM set the parameters for what and how (for instance, I might let *some* fourth-level spells in my game, but I won't allow Polymorph or Greater Invisibility, because those are cheat codes in an E6 game). Riffing off of that, you could just play Gestalt E6 outright (broken class interactions like Wizard 8//Factotum 8 don't really happen at this level, so the worst you'd be doing is giving people better bodies to stick their spellcasting on, and vice-versa). Or, you could play with Gnorman's homebrewed E6 races and classes, which are designed with E6 specifically in mind (and are generally higher power); I'm playing in two games with Gnorman's classes (a Nephilim Zealot [Initiate] and a Human Sentinel [Bastion]) via play-by-post, and they seem promising. If things keep shaping up the way they are, I may even adopt them into my current game (with the opportunity to change builds).

[Unusual Muse]

Very helpful perspectives... thanks! :smallsmile:

[Dire Panda]

I've been running an E6 game for almost a year now, and the PCs have been sixth level for the better part of that. Haven't heard one complaint about lack of advancement yet, but there has been plenty of excitement about feat chains and new items.

That being said, my group is primarily focused on role-playing and derive more enjoyment from changing the game world in meaningful ways (invented a new type of airship, stopped the world war from spilling over into yet another nation) than from accumulating raw personal power. "Roll-players" who just want that colossal damage output likely won't enjoy E6.

Like Gnorman said, the level cap also gives a much more down-to-earth feel to D&D. I find that players connect better to their characters when the characters have realistic limitations - it's difficult to properly roleplay a 20th-level wizard who can simply ignore the peasants with torches and pitchforks outside her tower, and letting the barbarian survive a fall from orbit shreds any vestige of realism your campaign might have had. My current E6 campaign - a blend of steampunk and fantasy - simply wouldn't work with the full 20-level progression because one of the overarching themes is the conflict between individuals and strict, all-powerful mechanized society. There's no way to make the massive armies of a repressive regime a credible threat to a 'standard' D&D hero, who can Great Cleave all day through hundreds of 1st-level musketeers and Meteor Swarm airships out of the sky. My players find E6 more satisfying because it's only their clever planning that keeps them alive in the face of superior forces.