Immunities: what can you lower?

[Hirax]

Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego (sic) a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic (for example, an elf’s resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality.

This is quite broad, but it got me to thinking about the argument that occasionally gets put forth that mind blank isn't worthwhile because it forbids you from benefiting from things such as morale bonuses. Yet, this would appear to not be meaningfully different from the given example, from both a mechanical and narrative perspective. The only difference is that one is a racial trait, and the other is a temporary effect, but I don't see anything in the text that would allow for that distinction to matter. Now, I don't think it's hard to visualize a sentient creature lowering its mind blank to allow heroism, but what about a zombie or golem? What about a lich willingly being polymorphed? Or a gold dragon willingly taking fire damage once, just so it can get an idea of what it's doing to other creatures? :smalleek:

[Jack Zander]

Does this only work against spells? Can a character choose to fogoe his saving throw against the bite of a werewolf in order to contract lycanthropy? That doesn't really seem like something you have control over (I can't really choose to get sick when I come into contact with the cold virus).

[Hirax]

Does this only work against spells? Can a character choose to fogoe his saving throw against the bite of a werewolf in order to contract lycanthropy? That doesn't really seem like something you have control over (I can't really choose to get sick when I come into contact with the cold virus).

Yeah, a strict reading means it only works against spells, and I don't know of any other passage that would allow for the example you gave.

Does anyone else know of any other relevant passages that help clarify when this can be done?

[Andion Isurand]

This is why I brewed the following spell:

Mind Harness
Abjuration
Level: Beguiler 8, Bard 6, Sorcerer/Wizard 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One willing creature with an intelligence score
Duration: 2 hours/level (D)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The subject of this spell loses any and all existing immunities to mind-affecting spells and effects, regardless of source, while this spell remains in effect.
The subject gains a +20 bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting spells and effects, including the limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or gain information about it.
In addition, the subject does not automatically fail such a saving throw on a natural roll of 1. However, if their result fails to overcome the save's DC, they still fail the save.
The subject of this spell may choose to end it by act of will as a free or immediate action.

[Hirax]

Anybody? :smallconfused:

[Ernir]

"special resistance to magic" is not a defined game term, as far as I am aware. I doubt we will find a clean RAW on this.

I wonder if it's possible to distinguish between "special resistance to magic" (like elves being immune to sleep spells and effects) and "special resistance to the effects of magic" (like fire immunity making you immune to most fire-based spells).

[prufock]

It depends on your interpretation of "immunity" - is it an auto-success on a saving throw, or no saving throw at all? If the former, then you should be able to voluntarily fail it. If the latter, you would not. I've looked and I don't think there is a RAW answer.

Personally I prefer the "no saving throw at all" interpretation, since there's no evidence to suggest that there is a saving throw.

This would mean a lich can't be polymorphed, a zombie can't be charmed, and a character with mind blank can't be inspired.

Note that Mind Blank doesn't even use the term "immune." It just flat out says you are "protected" from the effects or that they simply "don't work."

[Hirax]

It depends on your interpretation of "immunity" - is it an auto-success on a saving throw, or no saving throw at all? If the former, then you should be able to voluntarily fail it. If the latter, you would not. I've looked and I don't think there is a RAW answer.

Personally I prefer the "no saving throw at all" interpretation, since there's no evidence to suggest that there is a saving throw.

This would mean a lich can't be polymorphed, a zombie can't be charmed, and a character with mind blank can't be inspired.

Note that Mind Blank doesn't even use the term "immune." It just flat out says you are "protected" from the effects or that they simply "don't work."

I see the distinction you're making, but I'm not clear how that distinction forbids your given examples while allowing the one that the rule itself says is ok?

[prufock]

I see the distinction you're making, but I'm not clear how that distinction forbids your given examples while allowing the one that the rule itself says is ok?

The rule states you can voluntarily forgo a saving throw. Simply put, you can not forgo a saving throw if there is no saving throw. It follows that if immunity means there is no saving throw, you can't choose to fail it.

[Hirax]

The rule states you can voluntarily forgo a saving throw. Simply put, you can not forgo a saving throw if there is no saving throw. It follows that if immunity means there is no saving throw, you can't choose to fail it.

What I'm not clear on how you're making that distinction on a case by case basis. For instance, with elves and sleep effects, liches and polymorphing, mind blank and heroism, etc. Elves and sleep effects are explicitly OK, for instance, and I'm not seeing how that's different.

[prufock]

What I'm not clear on how you're making that distinction on a case by case basis. For instance, with elves and sleep effects, liches and polymorphing, mind blank and heroism, etc. Elves and sleep effects are explicitly OK, for instance, and I'm not seeing how that's different.

I'm not making a distinction on a case by case basis. I'm making a blanket assumption that immunity means there is no saving throw at all, and thus nothing to forgo. So any effect that says you are immune or unaffected or similar language, you can not forgo (unless otherwise stated in the specific description).

Following this rule, for example:
Elves can't choose to fall asleep.
A lich can't choose to be polymorphed (except by himself, which is specified in the description).
Zombies can't choose to be charmed or affected by any other mind-affecting spells.
A mind-blanked person can't be charmed or affected by a morale bonus, or any other mind-affecting spell.
Etc.

Perhaps your confusion comes from my previous examples not being broad enough? They weren't all-inclusive. For example I said "zombies can't be charmed," but they also can't be inspired by morale bonuses or ANY other mind-affecting spell.

[Hirax]

No, my confusion comes from my assumption that since you didn't include it in your initial list, that you thought elves could willingly accept a sleep spell. Since that's the example the PHB gives I didn't think you were going against it, but now that I see you are your position is consistent.

[hoverfrog]

Elves don't sleep. Nothing says that they can't.

A mind blank protects someone from mind-affecting spells and effects but presumably they can just forgo that protection if they wish.

[NichG]

I'd take the initial rule to specifically mean that SR can be lowered and not anything else. It then implies that elven resistance to sleep is a particular form of SR, which is kind of weird, but if you take the elven ability to be the special case then it results in a consistent position.

The idea of lowering immunities just doesn't work conceptually with so many of the immunities that exist, especially those from type or subtype.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Elves don't sleep. Nothing says that they can't.

...Do warforged dream of electric sheep? :smallamused:

[kardar233]

If you're asking this because of wanting to have immunity to [Mind-Affecting] and have [Mind-Affecting] buffs up, may I suggest Empyreal Ecstasy from BoED; it gives a few penalties, but it gives you [Mind-Affecting] immunity that doesn't affect effects already on you.

[prufock]

No, my confusion comes from my assumption that since you didn't include it in your initial list, that you thought elves could willingly accept a sleep spell. Since that's the example the PHB gives I didn't think you were going against it, but now that I see you are your position is consistent.

Right on.

After reading again, it seems immunities actually are able to be suppressed. The elf ability specifically says "immune" to magical sleep effects, and the rule says you can suppress that. By extension, I guess you can voluntarily forgo an immunity.

I think I still prefer the other ruling, though. It doesn't make much sense to me that a zombie can choose to be affected by inspire courage.

[Answerer]

I think immunity to polymorphing also has an explicit ability to work if the effect is cast by yourself.

[Toy Killer]

...Do warforged dream of electric sheep? :smallamused:

Well, that's just silly, Mr. Ford... They dream of Magitech sheep! :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

I think immunity to polymorphing also has an explicit ability to work if the effect is cast by yourself.

Is that a general rule, or a lich-specific thing? (Oddly, demiliches don't call out the ability to bypass their own polymorph immunity.)