Shugenja Tier?

[etrpgb]

What tier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293) do you think the Shugenja would be?

And adding a Rebuke Elemental at level 5 would change the power in a significant way? (Works as Turn Undead against the enemies with the banned element subtype or as Rebuke Undead agains the ones of the favourite element. It also counts as Rebuke Undead for qualifying)

If you think Shugenja does not belongs in the Tier 3, what would you like to change so that it does?

[Essence_of_War]

Spontaneous Caster that gets 9th level, game-breaking spells?

I'd probably put it in tier 2. It's basically the sorcerer with less splatbook spell-list support. And actually, if your group uses OA/d20 Rokugan stuff, it gets a lot of splatbook support there.

Tier 2 seems like the right place.

Edit: Low tier 2 -> Tier 3 depending on school/element choice, and your splat support.

Edit 2: I just realized the Shugenja has an AMAZING prestige class option. I'm pretty sure they get Lightning Bolt as a divine spell, which makes them one of only two base classes that can qualify for MoW's Hexer. It's a 10/10 casting and BAB w/ lots of cha-synergistic class abilities. If Hexer is on the table, I think the Shugenja is almost certainly in tier 2.

[Psyren]

Shugenja are a solid 3. Getting 9ths isn't enough by itself - it's the quality of those 9ths that matters. They don't really have anything that can break the game on its own.

[Essence_of_War]

Shugenja are a solid 3. Getting 9ths isn't enough by itself - it's the quality of those 9ths that matters. They don't really have anything that can break the game on its own.

Does the d20 Rokugan supplements give them enough to push into tier 2?

[Psyren]

Does the d20 Rokugan supplements give them enough to push into tier 2?

I haven't read them, so no clue. It would depend on any spells/class features they get.

[Togath]

if i remember right, the rokugan stuff doesn't boost them to tier 1, at best, they make a weak tier 2, but for most spell selections and without any rokugan material, they're high tier 3

[Amphetryon]

Shugenja are a solid 3. Getting 9ths isn't enough by itself - it's the quality of those 9ths that matters. They don't really have anything that can break the game on its own.

I support this position.

Water Shugenja are akin to Healers with a somewhat smaller, more quirky spell list.

Fire Shugenja are akin to Warmages with a somewhat smaller, more quirky spell list.

Air Shugenja are akin to Beguilers with a somewhat smaller, more quirky spell list and fewer ways to deal with immunities.

Earth Shugenja are akin to Dragon Shamans with a somewhat smaller, more quirky spell list.

Sounds like Tier 3 is accurate, if the above is close to true in others' experience.

[Essence_of_War]

What about void element shugenjas?

[Suddo]

What about void element shugenjas?

I thought I read in a handbook that they were just inferior to normal shugenjas. Can't remember though.

[Ashtagon]

What about void element shugenjas?

At least under WotC, void shugenja are prestige class only.

[Amphetryon]

At least under WotC, void shugenja are prestige class only.

Not exactly. There's one Order - Ineffable Mystery - centered around being a Void Shugenja. The aforementioned handbook likes the Order, but hates the Void Disciple PrC for its lost caster levels.

[Togath]

What are th order thingies?, I'm guessing the 3.5 is different from the 3.0 one?(I only have experience with the 3.0 version)

[Psyren]

What are th order thingies?, I'm guessing the 3.5 is different from the 3.0 one?(I only have experience with the 3.0 version)

An order is like a domain, or perhaps more accurately like a sorcerer bloodline from PF/Dragon since it gives you a bonus spell known of each level.

The key trick with orders is that they don't have to match your element - indeed, for maximum effectiveness you should pick one with as little overlap as possible. For instance, a Water Shugenja gets absolutely nothing special from the Order of Gentle Rain (they already have access to its water spells), but the Order of the Spring Zephyr gives them some added utility. However, don't pick an order full of an opposite element either as it will be useless. (e.g. Fire Shugenja should not pick Order of Gentle Rain.)

[Essence_of_War]

I looked at some of the additional spells in d20 Rokugan and many of them are underwhelming compared to the gems on the wiz/sor and the cleric/druid lists.

At high levels, there are some powerful divination effects in the void discipline, but other than that, lots of things like meteor swarm, or ambiguously worded lava geysers and such.

[eggs]

I really like building Shugenjas, because of the choice between specializing in one of the good disciplines (Air/Earth) and banning the other, or specializing in one of the bad disciplines (Fire/Water) and only dabbling in the powerful abilities.

But that decision really hobbles them power-wise - the better abilities they pick up, the better the abilities they have to turn away.

They still make cool Hexers, though.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I support this position.

Water Shugenja are akin to Healers with a somewhat smaller, more quirky spell list.

Fire Shugenja are akin to Warmages with a somewhat smaller, more quirky spell list.

Air Shugenja are akin to Beguilers with a somewhat smaller, more quirky spell list and fewer ways to deal with immunities.

Earth Shugenja are akin to Dragon Shamans with a somewhat smaller, more quirky spell list.

Sounds like Tier 3 is accurate, if the above is close to true in others' experience.

It's certainly true in my experience. Fire Shugenja, especially. They play like (slightly) more versatile warmages (lacking the Orb line of spells, however).

[Zaq]

The real kicker about the Shugenja is not the spell list itself. The real kicker about the Shugenja is the element specialty, since it works hard to prevent you from hitting the broad spectrum of spells that well-rounded spontaneous casters crave. Basically, I can see them as anything from 2 to 4 inclusive.

Argument for T2: They do get 9 level spells from a decent list that they have some control over. They can't have everything they want, but they can have enough nice things to qualify as an unambiguous pure caster. Compare to Ardent.

Argument for T3: Since their focus is limited, they will have at least one thing they're pretty good at, and they can use their off-focus spells to cover enough other bases that they're hard to completely shut down. They'll rarely be the MVP day after day, but rarely will they be sitting in the corner with their thumbs up their asses. Compare to Bard.

Argument for T4: Since they don't get many spells known and the element focus rather sharply restricts how many of those spells are truly free, every spell they take has a disproportionately large opportunity cost compared to, say, a Sorcerer or a Favored Soul. As such, it's really hard to get broad-spectrum utility on them without hamstringing yourself in the process. Compare to Shadowcaster.

In the end, I'd say they're too swingy to easily fit into one tier. If they didn't have the elemental focus banning a whole bunch of spells and severely restricting others, they'd be T2 with no questions asked, but that element focus really kind of throws a wrench in the works.

[Psyren]

Honestly, even if you let them choose from every spell/element with no restrictions, I don't see anything on their list that would push them to T2. They can't summon anything but elementals, can't call/bind anything, can't shapeshift, they've got some illusions but no shadow ones... AMF/SR, even energy resistances shut them down pretty hard. The orders don't give them a lot either. I'm just not seeing T2 levels of power here. These guys are powerful, but don't deserve to be on par with Psions, Sorcerers, Summoners, or Wu Jen even.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Honestly, even if you let them choose from every spell/element with no restrictions, I don't see anything on their list that would push them to T2. They can't summon anything but elementals, can't call/bind anything, can't shapeshift, they've got some illusions but no shadow ones... AMF/SR, even energy resistances shut them down pretty hard. The orders don't give them a lot either. I'm just not seeing T2 levels of power here. These guys are powerful, but don't deserve to be on par with Psions, Sorcerers, Summoners, or Wu Jen even.

Hey, don't go around smack-talking no Wu Jen. They've got a couple of neat tricks that are unique to them.

[Psyren]

Hey, don't go around smack-talking no Wu Jen. They've got a couple of neat tricks that are unique to them.

You misunderstand me - I'm actually praising Wu Jen. They are more powerful than Shugenja by far.

[darksolitaire]

Also note that if you play D&D, you basically have two sources: Complete Divine and Oriental Adventures itself, with former basically updating the latter. D20 Rokugan is not D&D as such, but 3rd party. They also have like, two feats from Dragon Magazine. So we can't really talk about splat book support in their case.

[Psyren]

For what it's worth, Spell Compendium recommends adding spells with "strong elemental or weather themes" onto their list, including from the Druid list. Still not sure that gets them to T2 but you never know.